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ThomasH
08-14-2008, 11:38
I stopped at a couple of liquor stores on the way to work yesterday and found some more BIB bourbon. I have known for several months that one store had Kentucky Tavern BIB but now a 2nd store carries it as well as JTS Brown BIB. JTS runs 13.00 a 750 and Kentucky Tavern is 10.00. If anyone is interested in either, feel free to send me a PM. I see JTS in stores periodically but this is only the 2nd place I have found Kentucky Tavern and I have searched a lot of places!

Thomas

OscarV
08-14-2008, 16:49
You know what I'd like to get?
Colonel Lee Bourbon.
Don't ask why.

callmeox
08-14-2008, 17:05
You know what I'd like to get?
Colonel Lee Bourbon.
Don't ask why.


Why?



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StraightBoston
08-15-2008, 07:56
You know what I'd like to get?
Colonel Lee Bourbon.
Don't ask why.

You can get VOB in MI... vat that with Ten High! :D

mozilla
08-15-2008, 09:43
Picked up some CL Bib, last trip to Ky. One bottle almost didn't even make it home. It is a very smooth and easy drinking bourbon with all of the flavor one expects from a Bib pour. Wish I could find it locally.

I would say it is a little more tame and sophisticated than the Tom Moore Bib, I usually buy.

cowdery
08-15-2008, 12:33
Truth is, right now those cheap BIBs, in their limited distribution, are some of the best values in straight bourbon whiskey. I can't explain why they're so good, they just are. Very Old Barton BIB has been one of my go-to bourbons since I lived in Kentucky more than 20 years ago. Now I'm very big on JTS Brown BIB too. My other perennial favorite is Old Fitzgerald BIB. Old Fitz and the equally excellent Old Grand-Dad aren't particularly good values--not bad, just not particularly good. It's the BIBs from Barton and Heaven Hill that are the great values. There's also Beam's Old Bourbon Hollow, but I'm not sure what that's going for right now.

callmeox
08-15-2008, 13:11
Now, Chuck's motivating me to head out to get the JTS BIB at my local retailer. If I don't like it, I'll gift him a bottle less one pour at KBF. :grin:

plaid_emu
08-15-2008, 15:20
Now, Chuck's motivating me to head out to get the JTS BIB at my local retailer. If I don't like it, I'll gift him a bottle less one pour at KBF. :grin:

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. One of the best Bourbons available here in Ohio regardless of the price. It's a damn steal for $13.

Last night I was at a friends house and his buddy is a big Maker's fan. Pretty much exclusively a MM drinker. I busted out some JTS Brown BIB and he said he's switching. He not only loved the taste but the price is just right.

Also, has anyone noticed that MM is cheaper in OH if you buy it in the 12 pack of little 50 ML bottles?

$16.65 - 600 ML Vs. $14.00 - 375 ML

gothbat
08-15-2008, 17:16
$14.00 - 375 ML

Even that isn't so bad, I grabbed a 375 of MM on the way to a friends house, didn't look at the price tag, and was shocked when it rang up $18.99! I never would have even thought to buy a bunch of mini's instead though (assuming it does actually work out to be a better price in my area...), definitely something to look into though!

cowdery
08-15-2008, 19:42
I grew up in Ohio. Every peculiarity noted is a direct result of socialized booze. One thing you don't do in Ohio if you're a producer is delist, so you're liable to see brands there that were pulled out of everyplace except the Bourbon Belt 30 years ago. JTS Brown, Mattingly and Moore, Kentucky Tavern and, I'm sure, several others. Today, a listing in Ohio is an asset that probably makes those brands more valuable when they change hands.

dhineline
09-06-2008, 14:55
I am running low on bourbons and I usually make a trip to KY to stock up, both because it is cheaper and because there is a better selection than here in ohio. Decided to go in and buy a CHEAP bottle of bourbon, didn't want anything 80 proof or 86 if I could help it. Didn't really care if I liked it, just wanted to try something cheap for poker night. Was going to buy Evan Williams black label, but have had it before (and thought it was okay). I bought JTS Brown BIB for $13. Ugly bottle, figured it would suck and I would go back to my normal stuff in a week or so. Ooops. Very good bourbon. Dang, now there is another brand I have to stock.

callmeox
09-06-2008, 16:37
I never posted my follow-up after I bought the JTS Brown BIB, so here it is:

Awesome value and a very under rated bourbon.

callmeox
09-06-2008, 22:29
After reading this thread, I headed over to a friend's house...a guy who as an equal appreciation for malts as well as bourbon. I told him to hand me the bottle of Knob Creek behind the bar, along with two glasses and to turn his back to me.

I poured equal amounts of KC and JTS BIN in tasting glasses and told him to have at it. He couldn't tell the difference between the two. I was able to peg the Beam quickly, but the demo achieved it's purpose to him. Why buy the ~30.00 plus bottle of KC when the ~14.00 of JTS Brown BIB would suffice?

cowdery
09-07-2008, 14:18
How sad you have to pay $14 in Cleveland for JTS BIB. It's $9 in Kentucky. I love the stuff, by the way.

callmeox
09-07-2008, 16:42
At least it's available here, so it's tough to complain.

ThomasH
09-13-2008, 11:18
Kentucky Tavern BIB seems to be showing up in more stores around here. Now my favorite store has it. I also noticed some other new stuff at this store that covers a variety of categories. Either Ohio is expanding their offerings or they are getting a very early start to the holiday season. They even have some of those gift packages out on display already. Certain brands seem to be offering gift packages on a more year round basis than before. JD is one and Southern Comfort is another. Even Absolute vodka is offering them!

Thomas

cowdery
09-13-2008, 19:32
Kentucky Tavern BIB is not a new listing in Ohio because I bought some in Mansfield a few years ago. Does anyone know how Ohio merchandises its stores now? In olden times, every state store had the same selection, but since the stores are now franchised by the state to private operators, they presumably don't have to carry everything on the list.

callmeox
09-13-2008, 19:48
The store owner can order in items that the state doesn't send automatically. If the item is in stock at the warehouse, they will normally send it. How the state decides what to send where automatically is a mystery.

I stopped by my favorite local store today to see if the new Beam rye was in and I asked the owner about it. He said that he hasn't seen it yet, but he has been trying to replenish the Saz Jr. that flew off the shelf after the state sent him two cases. (Saz Jr isn't a "regular" item in Ohio, it is on the special order list).

It looks like the state sent him Beam Rye instead as he pointed that out as a new product on the shelf. :skep:

cowdery
09-13-2008, 20:18
Beam rye got a label change not long ago and the proprietor may have been thinking of that. I don't believe the new Beam rye is available at retail anywhere yet.

callmeox
09-13-2008, 20:23
Correct. Beam Rye with the buff colored label was on the shelf (where the Saz Jr. used to sit) not the new unpronounceable rye from Beam.

The ODLC thought process there was probably "He want's a rye, send him this since he doesn't carry it."

ThomasH
09-13-2008, 21:47
The ODLC can send a store whatever they want. Sometimes a store wants something and the state decides whether or not to send it to them. There basically isn't any logical reasoning to what they do. They can also transfer stock out of any store and into any other at any time. I thought it was ironic how long I looked for a KT BIB and all of the sudden it started showing up in my own back yard. I think it was absent from store shelves at one point!

Thomas

cowdery
09-13-2008, 22:25
All that sounds like Ohio, but the baseline is The List. Ohio only buys, from the producers, what is "listed," which is the master list of those products approved for sale in Ohio. A mere change in label design doesn't require a new listing, but something like a change of proof would. The producer pays for each listing and pays to change them, and requests to delist one product and replace it with another aren't necessarily recognized. Once you get something listed you don't delist it unless it sells nothing, because it's so hard to get listed.

callmeox
09-13-2008, 22:38
I guess that the answer that you're looking for is that not everyone stocks everything on The List. Higher volume stores end up with more of what is on The List than others since the state likes selling product more than warehousing it.

Ohio will buy stuff that's not on The List if you request it, but they must not require a deposit as a number of these Special Order items ended up in stores (Ritt, Saz Jr, WT Rye, Weller SR). There's a store near me with 10 bottles of WT Rye on the shelf and it's on the Special Order list.

barturtle
09-13-2008, 22:48
There's a store near me with 10 bottles of WT Rye on the shelf and it's on the Special Order list.

Is it a good price? I find many of the control states with state stores happen to have pretty good pricing.

callmeox
09-13-2008, 22:57
9631B WILD TURKEY RYE WHISKEY $ 20.70 TO $ 21.00

That price includes tax and the range is based on the different county taxes.

Binny's and Sams list it at 19.99 (before tax if you buy locally) and Bevmo wants 21.99.

cowdery
09-13-2008, 23:56
Yeah, Ohio will buy stuff that's not on the list, if it's on the other list.

callmeox
09-14-2008, 06:32
On the occasions that I have spoken to the ODLC about products, the very nice staff has offered to order in whatever I want, provided that I buy it in case lots. When I asked about the availability of items already on the special order list, they would comment that they brought that at the request of a specific bar or customer.

Ohio law allows us to bring in 1L a month tax free. Any volume above and beyond that is supposed to be ordered through the special order program and since those items are delivered to the customer through an ODLC outlet, they need to appear on the price list somewhere (but I don't know for how long.

But, to get this back on topic, there are a number of good inexpensive bonds that are on the regular list. While I'm not happy with the general selection here overall, the availability of these quality products is a plus.

BourbonJoe
09-14-2008, 06:33
The one time, and only one time, they sold it in PA it was 15 bucks.
Joe :usflag:

cowdery
09-14-2008, 07:56
On the occasions that I have spoken to the ODLC about products, the very nice staff has offered to order in whatever I want, provided that I buy it in case lots. When I asked about the availability of items already on the special order list, they would comment that they brought that at the request of a specific bar or customer.

I misunderstood. I thought you said there was a special order list.

callmeox
09-14-2008, 09:52
It's an "after the fact list" or a "things we've already ordered for someone else list" and you will find it at the bottom of The List online.

http://www.liquorcontrol.ohio.gov/dolc.liquor.pricelist.txt

cowdery
09-14-2008, 14:06
The D O L C PRICE LIST is like a history of the American distilled spirits industry, where old brands never die.

mozilla
09-15-2008, 15:53
Finished off some Rittenhouse Rye Bib and decided to revisit some Ancient Age Bib. The Ancient Age is no slouch. Has a bit more corn than the RR...but, cuts no corners with flavor. It could stand a little more age though its youth shows good starts to complexity. This 1.75 is right in the middle price range at $21-23.

And yes, I know it is not the 10 year.

smokinjoe
09-15-2008, 18:09
Finished off some Rittenhouse Rye Bib and decided to revisit some Ancient Age Bib. The Ancient Age is no slouch. Has a bit more corn than the RR...but, cuts no corners with flavor. It could stand a little more age though its youth shows good starts to complexity. This 1.75 is right in the middle price range at $21-23.

And yes, I know it is not the 10 year.

Thanks for the reminder, Jeff. It's been some time since I hit my AA BIB. I know I've had nights where I've bounced around my bunker, and this one was the highlight of the trip. Yep, I'm getting big creamed corn with it. You're right, it's youngish, but very feisty. Which to me, is a good thing. Is this easily found in Texas, Jeff? I don't see it here in Georgia, so I usually pick it up in TN or KY. I like it, so I'll be adding it to my cart at KBF.

Cheers!

mozilla
09-15-2008, 18:42
Sorry Joe, I had to get my bottle in Ky, as well. I try to pick up every Bib I find, while visiting distilleries. AA always makes it into the cart. I use it to stretch my AAA 10yr, incase I drink my stash before returning to the Holyland.

PhilsFan
09-22-2008, 09:08
Before I went on vacation, I left a message for Rachel Peak of Capital Cellars in Frankfort about the availability of Colonel Lee. She left a message on my work phone and said that both Colonel Lee and Tom Moore are no longer being produced, and the distributor had no more of either bourbon. Kentucky Gentleman and VOB (thankfully) are still being produced.

-Joe

mozilla
09-22-2008, 10:09
I don't think her information is correct. Tom Moore is a huge seller in Texas....and it comes from the same mashbill as everyother Barton bourbon except 1792. So, they produce the bourbon...for sure. Whether, they use those labels in Ky is the question that needs to be answered.

Most emails to Barton seem to go unanswered...so, if someone wants to take on the task of getting a definite answere from the distillery....that would be fantastic.

PhilsFan
09-22-2008, 13:19
I don't think her information is correct. Tom Moore is a huge seller in Texas....and it comes from the same mashbill as everyother Barton bourbon except 1792. So, they produce the bourbon...for sure. Whether, they use those labels in Ky is the question that needs to be answered.

Most emails to Barton seem to go unanswered...so, if someone wants to take on the task of getting a definite answere from the distillery....that would be fantastic.

You may be right that the labels just aren't available in KY anymore, but she actually used the words "no longer being produced" and although I only received a message from her, and didn't talk to her directly, I got the impression that she did a little research on it. I'll see if I can speak to her live and try to trace down her source of info.

-Joe

PhilsFan
09-22-2008, 13:37
I don't think her information is correct. Tom Moore is a huge seller in Texas....and it comes from the same mashbill as everyother Barton bourbon except 1792. So, they produce the bourbon...for sure. Whether, they use those labels in Ky is the question that needs to be answered.

Most emails to Barton seem to go unanswered...so, if someone wants to take on the task of getting a definite answere from the distillery....that would be fantastic.

I just talked to Rachel from Capital Cellars and she said that Bryant Distributors told her that Colonel Lee and Tom Moore were no longer available in KY, but she said that Texas, New York and California are huge markets for the Tom Moore distillery and that's why the product is still available in those areas.

-Joe

mozilla
09-22-2008, 14:47
Great info!

I wonder where the big market for Colonel Lee is?

Jono
09-22-2008, 15:09
I loved:
Henry McKenna & JTS Brown...both very enjoyable to drink.
Liked the VOB....it has a hard to describe taste element...a little dryish.

OGD 100 a little rough but an ok pour...a good mixer.
Old Charter 8....a little disappointed...seems light and thin.

mozilla
09-22-2008, 19:11
Jon,
were all of those Bib? OC 8 is usually an 80 proofer.

cowdery
09-23-2008, 07:00
I've seen Colonel Lee in speedracks here in Chicago.

I would find it hard to believe that Constellation has discontinued Tom Moore, since they're just renamed the distillery as the Tom Moore Distillery.

Both are still listed on the Barton web site (http://www.bartonbrands.com/category.htm).

Jono
09-23-2008, 07:14
Right, the OC 8 and McKenna are at 80 proof.

BourbonJoe
09-23-2008, 09:01
Greg Davis told us a couple of years ago that Colonel Lee was being discontinued.
Joe :usflag:

CorvallisCracker
09-23-2008, 09:35
I've seen Colonel Lee in speedracks here in Chicago.

I would find it hard to believe that Constellation has discontinued Tom Moore, since they're just renamed the distillery as the Tom Moore Distillery.

Both are still listed on the Barton web site (http://www.bartonbrands.com/category.htm).

Note that on that page are listed the CL and TM Light Whiskies; however clicking on those takes you to the bourbons with those labels.

However, there were, until last year, such critters, and perhaps that's what was being referenced in the "being discontinued" statements.

Interestingly, although they've been delinked, the web pages for those are still on the web site: CL Light (http://www.bartonbrands.com/colonlleelight.html) and TM Light (http://www.bartonbrands.com/tommoorelight.html).

I'm pretty sure that Barton was the last producer of "Light Whiskey", a relict of the early seventies.

cowdery
09-23-2008, 12:00
Because Constellation is in a process of realignment, the shedding of some brands is certainly plausible. Since they have named the distillery Tom Moore (the name of the original distillery on that location, and the name of its founder), it's possible that they are discontinuing Tom Moore in its current iteration in anticipation of a future relaunch of it as the distillery's flagship. That's all speculation, of course.

The web site I linked to above, although it is still live, is effectively superceded by the new cbrands.com (http://www.cbrands.com) site, which lists Tom Moore but not Colonel Lee or, for that matter, Kentucky Gentleman. Under bourbon it lists VOB, Tom Moore, Ten High, and Kentucky Tavern. Ridgemont Reserve 1792 is listed under Premium Spirits.

I also understand from a source at Barton that the Barton name will be retained as the umbrella under which their commodity and regional brands will be marketed, and perhaps those brands will live on there, but there's nothing on the new web site about it.

Of course, knowing what we know, if they are discontinuing either of these brands, that only means they'll be available at retail for the next 30 years or so.

ThomasH
09-24-2008, 13:44
I do think Colonel Lee has been discontinued. It used to be available in nearly every store in Ohio and sold quite well. I think Ohio was one of its major markets. Now, it is gone and no longer listed on the ODLC price list. Like Chuck C said, distillers just don't normally delist a brand in Ohio!

Thomas

cowdery
09-24-2008, 13:55
True. If it has been delisted in Ohio, it's gone.

OscarV
09-24-2008, 14:08
WOW!!!

When I first got into to this bourbon thing fully,...
I thought it would be cool to have a bottle of Colonel Lee.
Recently, through the networking here on the mighty, mighty, mighty, SB.com I finally got one.

PhilsFan & ThomasH rocks!!!

Umm,... you know what?
A Kentucky Gentelman would look real cool on my shelf,...:grin:

cowdery
09-24-2008, 16:18
I've often wondered if they would keep Kentucky Gentleman since, bizarre as it seems that anyone would have ever knocked off Kentucky Tavern, that's exactly what Kentucky Gentleman was, a Kentucky Tavern knock-off.

Knock-offs are kind of fun. Gary Gillman and I are now convinced that Benchmark was originally developed as a Maker's Mark knock-off.

mozilla
09-24-2008, 16:56
I've often wondered if they would keep Kentucky Gentleman since, bizarre as it seems that anyone would have ever knocked off Kentucky Tavern, that's exactly what Kentucky Gentleman was, a Kentucky Tavern knock-off.

Knock-offs are kind of fun. Gary Gillman and I are now convinced that Benchmark was originally developed as a Maker's Mark knock-off.


Al Young would be a good source for info since he came up with the name Benchmark, while in his early days at Seagrams.

cowdery
09-24-2008, 18:09
Good to know. I suspect Jim will just forward my email to Al.

shoshani
10-03-2008, 11:36
I've often wondered if they would keep Kentucky Gentleman since, bizarre as it seems that anyone would have ever knocked off Kentucky Tavern, that's exactly what Kentucky Gentleman was, a Kentucky Tavern knock-off.

That was back in the days of Schenley and Glenmore, wasn't it? Because for a while, at least under UD, Kentucky Tavern was being made with the wheat mashbill at Bernheim, maybe even Stitz; Kentucky Gentleman would not have changed to a wheat recipe to follow suit, I would imagine....

Tavern is probably not made with wheat anymore, so it would make sense to drop one of the two brands...however, they also market a Kentucky Gentleman blended whiskey, which complicates things.

cowdery
10-03-2008, 22:21
KT was wheated only very briefly and long after its heyday.

OscarV
10-05-2008, 09:00
I learned something from Chuck yesterday about BIB.
I thought BIB was just stating that it was 100 proof and at least 4 years old.
Which is true but what I did not know that it also means that it is from the same "season", meaning that it has not been mingled with 2 different years.
I told Chuck that they should put this on the label as a selling point but he said that the distilleries would like to get away from BIB's.
I suppose this is another casulty of the current bourbon shortage.

spun_cookie
10-05-2008, 11:54
.... but he said that the distilleries would like to get away from BIB's.
I suppose this is another casulty of the current bourbon shortage.

And a new need to drive profits up...

Just as an aside, a BIB also has to be from only one distiller as well, correct?
So:

100 proof
4 yrs
one season (I assume calander year?)
One Distiller (which I assume means the same mash build as well - one planned label [e.g. Weller, WT, MM, HH] or could BT mix anything they own into it?)

cowdery
10-05-2008, 16:39
One season, one distillery, one distiller.

For BIB purposes, the year is divided into two seasons. Jan-Jun is Spring, Jul-Dec is Fall.

spun_cookie
10-05-2008, 18:35
Thank you sir. _________