PDA

View Full Version : Jacob G Kinsey & Angelo Myers & Kinsey Distillery



dave ziegler
09-01-2008, 06:08
This thread will only be about Jake Kinsey & Angelo Myers from what I learned listening to Al Landis 90 yrs. old whose granfather Henry Landis and Mr Kinsey married Sisters! I spent 2 hours last night finding out about many things the rest of them about Kinsey will be on my Memories Thread but I want everyone to be able to hear what I learned about Angelo Myers From Al who learned as a boy as much as he could from his father Hoarce Landis who went on to be Kinsey's Master Distiller after Prohibition. Al later went on himself to work for Mr Kinsey.
Angelo Myers was a Very Well known Whiskey Dealer in Phila in the late 1890's he also was himself a master Distiller. He and Jacob G Kinsey became friends about a year or so after Mr Kinsey started work on buiding his Distillery in Linfield Pa. Mr Kinsey had one goal in mind and as Al Told Me it was to Make The VERY BEST WHISKEYS POSSIBLE! Jake Kinsey was a master Distiller also. after about 8 yrs or so Mr Kinsey decided He needed someone with a name in Distilling in order to be able to sell his products. Angelo Myers had many contacts in New York City a very Big Market for fine Whiskeys also Phila and Boston. Mr Kinsey got to talking to His Friend Angelo Myers and decided He was going to use his name at the Distillery and let him run that part while He owned it and and worked hard to make the Very Best Products He could make. Angelo Myers started running and using Kinsey Distillery about 1909 and Ran it till prohibition. He marketed Kinsey Brands in Phila and very much in New York City. One example was Kinsey Brand "Maywood Brand Straight Rye" which on the top of the Label says "Kinsey's Pennsylvania Rye" and it was bottled in Boston by The American Liqour Company for them back then. Things were starting to go very Good with Angelo Myers help and just a few years before Prohibition Kinsey Rye was really getting popular. Prohibition Coming about caused Kinsey being small to have to shut down completely during those days and Mr Meyers to never return. Every Case they marketed had Angelo Myers Distillery & Kinsey Distillery on them as my Wooden one from 1909 has! I from what I have heard figure Mr Myers was alot older then Mr Kinsey so most likely He went on to retire or do something Else after Prohibition came about. Angelo Myers is someone very hard to find anything about and without AL Landis talking to me this story could never be told, I have known Al's Son Ken from the days I worked there and I knew if anyone could give me the story it would be Al and I wanted to get it quick while he is here to tell it. One Other Thing Angelo Myers thought his friend Mr. Kinsey's products to be so good that is why he decided he would run the plant and marketing for Jacob G Kinsey for a time till his brands got a foothold. Neither one ever though it would end with him still there running it and prohibition closing it as it did then those days.
Dave Z
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey
----------------------------
Join The Switch To Kinsey
--------------------------

fricky
09-01-2008, 06:51
Angelo Myers started running and using Kinsey Distillery about 1909 and Ran it till prohibition. -------------------------

Thanks Dave for the information. I am still a bit confused. Apparently, there was some agreement between the 2 before 1909. The ad listed on e-bay from an 1897 Philadelphia almanac advertises Kinsey Pure Rye BIB distilled by The Angelo Myers Distillery Incorporated, Linfield, PA. Did Jacob Kinsey agree to permit his distillery to be called by a name other than his own?
Doug

dave ziegler
09-01-2008, 07:26
Yes Fricky that is just what Al Told Me and It may have started sooner but things really did not get going till the early 1900's as it took a while to build the place distill and barrel and age the Whiskeys after Jacob G Kinsey bought the Farm in 1892 so there would be some years before things got started it was by Mr Kinsey letting him that it was called Angelo Myers Distillery for a time and was be changed back after things got going good and the Kinsey Name to become Popular, however that change never happened those yrs because Prohibition closed it till fall 1933 and then It took Mr Kinsey's name for good even after Continental owned it till it closed. Kinsey was a very Smart man and him and Mr Myers were very good friends and trusted each other so Kinsey knowing how well known Mr Myers was back then thought this was the way to get his whiskeys on the market and well known. None of the Whiskey's were ever called by the name Angelo Myers they all were called Kinsey! Just the Distillery had the Myers name for a while
Dave Z
Old Hickory America's Most magnificent Bourbon
---------------------------------------------------

mozilla
09-01-2008, 07:28
Doug,
from what I know from Mike Veach....it is and was very common for distilleries to use various names under which they distilled. Many times they would just hang a sign above the distillery door explaining who was distilling that day. I am sure it has to do with some government regulations, though I am not sure which one.

So, maybe the booze that was headed for Boston would be sold under the umbrella of Myers while booze sold in Pa. would use the Kinsey format.

To be really certain of the relationship, we would probably have to see the contract with which they operated under.

Thanks to Dave for posting the information from the Landis family. Great investigation, D!

fricky
09-01-2008, 09:32
Jeff,
Were there no government label regulations concerning BIB whiskey and precisely who distilled it? I think that it is amazing that Jacob Kinesey would allow his Kinsey Pure Rye to be sold and labeled as distilled by Angelo Myers Distillery. I certainly do not have a great understanding of the history of distilleries and how they would allow others to sell their named product under a different distillery's name.

I realize that bourbon is sold today by others that did not distill it such as Bulleit Bourbon produced by Bulleit Distilling Co. Bulleit Distilling Company is not selling a product that they call Four Roses Bourbon which would appear to be the situation with Angelo Myers selling Kinsey Pure Rye. I understand that Mr. Kinsey wanted extensive exposure of his Rye Whiskey back in 1897 and was willing to allow Angelo Myers to claim that he distilled it; however, it appears that it continued up to prohibition.

Based on the pictures of one of Dave's boxes, the description shows Kinsey Pure Rye and The Angel Myers Distillery. It also shows that it was bonded spring 1914 and bottled spring 1919. As you probably know, prohibition went into effect on a federal level in January 1920.

Doug

mozilla
09-01-2008, 11:39
Jeff,
Were there no government label regulations concerning BIB whiskey and precisely who distilled it? I think that it is amazing that Jacob Kinesey would allow his Kinsey Pure Rye to be sold and labeled as distilled by Angelo Myers Distillery. I certainly do not have a great understanding of the history of distilleries and how they would allow others to sell their named product under a different distillery's name.

I realize that bourbon is sold today by others that did not distill it such as Bulleit Bourbon produced by Bulleit Distilling Co. Bulleit Distilling Company is not selling a product that they call Four Roses Bourbon which would appear to be the situation with Angelo Myers selling Kinsey Pure Rye. I understand that Mr. Kinsey wanted extensive exposure of his Rye Whiskey back in 1897 and was willing to allow Angelo Myers to claim that he distilled it; however, it appears that it continued up to prohibition.

Based on the pictures of one of Dave's boxes, the description shows Kinsey Pure Rye and The Angel Myers Distillery. It also shows that it was bonded spring 1914 and bottled spring 1919. As you probably know, prohibition went into effect on a federal level in January 1920.

Doug

Well, I believe that distilleries, in order to lower the overall cost of production would sell distillate in any mannor that they could. If that meant striat out of the still or as a finished product they were always interested in turnover. So, if back then there were distributors that needed a certain style(real young to old) Kinsey would have sold it to them with a smile. While, the young stuff needs little explaination, aged and bottled products would wholesale for much more per volume...mostly because of the time and effort that was included in aging and bottling.

Also, Myers could well have been a very large name in the early days of Kinsey. Which, would have Kinsey tagging along on the coat tails of Myers. It is hard to evaluate the situation without any knowledge of their relationship. Needless to say, distilleries wanted to produce the maximum volume and reep the profit margin. So, if Myers could unload large volumes in certain markets, Kinsey would be a fool not to get involved.

As for Bib regulations....I don't believe the Gov. cares where the booze is made...as long as the correct DSP is listed. Many labels were made at other distilleries....even in todays market. There is alot more bourbon that switches hands than anyone knows or lets on.

Also, distilleries are not an endevour that anyone could just jump into. Therefor, distilleries were co-oped to a certain degree. Take for example a fellow ownes a label or group of labels in a market within the US....he needs a supply of stock to keep his labels and market share. He would go to a distiller, who would hang the sign of the label owner up the day they were producing his supply.

Finally, every distiller makes up their own minds to what they put on their label. Take HH for example...they still list more original distilleries than any other producer today. My Virgin 101 still lists Meadowlawn Distillery(Bardstown) as its origin. HH shows lots of respect when they do this sort of thing, IMO.

mozilla
09-01-2008, 12:01
I was looking at the 1st pic on post #165 of the "my memories" thread where the distillery is pictured (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6787&d=1219695311) from the air. There are what appears to be at least four, 1 million barrel warehouses already on the site in 1937. Now, that is a lot of barrels. I might be tempted to say that Mr. Kinsey might have borrowed a few dollars to hook that kind of capacity up. I don't think BT even has half of that capacity, today.

So, I could really understand if Mr. Kinsey was in the position to be a motivated seller of his products. Plus, from what Dave has conveyed, he was a man with a big plan. Which, culminated with the size of establishment that dwarfs almost every other distillery that I have ever researched.

fricky
09-01-2008, 17:32
I guess we will never know the complete story. It is sad to know that Kinsey Pure Rye BIB was manufactured and promoted prior to prohibition but like Angelo Myers disappeared after prohibition.
Doug

dave ziegler
09-02-2008, 05:15
All I can say is Angelo Myers is Long Dead and the Fact That I was able to talk to someone Who knew so much about him after NO ONE could do nothing but guess is very Good I would say. Al Landis is 90 yrs old and has a very clear mind and He was very close to his Father Hoarce and learned all these things. I would be willing to bet that Al is the only living Person who could tell us anything. On the Web they wonder if Angelo Myers was even real well here is some information that no one today would have known. Mr Kinsey and Him were very good friends, Mr Kinsey had never Distilled till he bought the farm there! He was in the Creamery bussiness most of his life before that, what better way to get your Product known in those days but to join with a Man who was a whiskey specialist to get his product tried! Once it caught on and the product always says as my one old bottle does Kinsey Whiskey as does my case, so he gets his product well known and after that Mr Myers just becomes a dealer for this great Whiskey however because of Prohibition it ended before they could do that and When Prohibition ended Jacob G Kinsey brands of Whiskey were well remembered and He started up as he was going to with only his name. Mr Myers was a bit older then him and just went off at prohibition never to be head of with Whiskey again. Kinsey Whiskey was when Prohibition ended so well liked that Continental Distilling Kept that brand name going after Buyiing Kinsey till the very end of their bussiness!

Al Landis and His Son Ken wanted very Much for people to know about Jacob G Kinsey they to this day speak of him as Grandfather Jake. I myself feel very lucky to be the one that has put all these things together for History so that People can know as much of the real story as possible and what better place to get it then from people who were blood Relatives of Jacob G Kinsey. Like all stories there are always things we can't find out after so many years But knowing this much about Angelo Myers to me is amazing. I had no clue for many years but thanks to talking to Kinsey Family Relatives we now know about as much as we ever will and when you want to write a book which I would love to do about Kinsey & Publicker this is a very exciting Part! These People were Giants in a new Industry and their Names will live forever in History if I have my Way. Mr Kinsey was such a nice man I can well understnd his friendship with Angelo Myers and their like Interest in the making and selling of Great Whiskeys. One Thing Al Landis made very Clear to Me was that Jake Kinsey wanted more then anything to Make as good a Whiskeys as could be made when it came to cost or good, Good always came first.

I want to personally Thank Al Landis his son Ken & Harold Ludolph ( Ludy ) for all the information they have given me and anymore they will! Also for their personal Insight into how great a man Si Neuman was and his vision that was what made Publicker Great and gave so many people a good life. Also I want to say the Very Best to Any of The Neuman family still living Mr Neuman was a hero to me and A Man Who Always Thought Big And Did It giving Publicker its great sucess! Mr Si Neuman Was A giant it his Time! There now are only 3 or 4 people old enough to get this info from and some of them can't remember so I am very Blessed to have been able to find those who do and talk with them.
Dave Z
Old Hickory America's Most Magnificent Bourbon
---------------------------------------------
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey
--------------------------------

fricky
09-02-2008, 05:35
Hi Dave,
Does Al have any knowledge of why Kinsey Pure Rye BIB was not available after prohibition? Also, were other whiskies with KInsey on the label produced prior to prohibition?
Doug

dave ziegler
09-02-2008, 05:40
Thanks Fricky I will have to ask Al About that, is a good Question. May be some where from the Ideas of Continental Distilling but will ask him next time I can get to talk to him!

Gillman
09-02-2008, 06:23
Dave, also, is any info available on rye whiskey mashbills? My understanding is that pre- and immediate post-pro ryes were made with 80% rye and the rest barley malt. Of course each producer would have had his variations, but it would be interesting to know about rye mashbills since today we are told most ryes are only 51% rye (the rest corn and malt) or perhaps a little higher on the rye. Thanks

Gary

dave ziegler
09-02-2008, 14:16
Here is something I missed completely the Back of the old Original Picture of Kinsey it Has written on it for those who wondered was it a Plane that took it, It says if you look closely Aero -Plane Picture Copy righted It most have been mounted marks on the back in Mr Kinsey's office there or in the Plant and that is why Bill Theodois gave it to Ludy back in the Early 1950's he was good friends with Bill ,He was still running the Plant till right before I came when He Had a Heart atack and died in his 50's Ludy forgot he had this one as had the other copy with the writting and Mr Kinsey's Office on Locust St in Phila cut off from what he remembered they were given that one by Publicker / Continental this one He had forgot about and found it looking for things to show me about the place. Here are the Front and the Back of the picture, look closely and you can see written Aero Plane picture and marks were it was mounted at one time. I am glad I looked at the back today as made a copy for the Limerick Historic Society as they don't have this either and this really is a one of a Kind.
Dave Z
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey
-----------------------------
Join The Swing To Kinsey
------------------------
Kinsey Gold & Kinsey Silver

dave ziegler
09-03-2008, 02:27
Here is something I missed completely the Back of the old Original Picture of Kinsey it Has written on it for those who wondered was it a Plane that took it, It says if you look closely Aero -Plane Picture Copy righted It most have been mounted marks on the back in Mr Kinsey's office there or in the Plant and that is why Bill Theodois gave it to Ludy back in the Early 1950's he was good friends with Bill ,He was still running the Plant till right before I came when He Had a Heart atack and died in his 50's Ludy forgot he had this one as had the other copy with the writting and Mr Kinsey's Office on Locust St in Phila cut off from what he remembered they were given that one by Publicker / Continental this one He had forgot about and found it looking for things to show me about the place. Here are the Front and the Back of the picture, look closely and you can see written Aero Plane picture and marks were it was mounted at one time. I am glad I looked at the back today as made a copy for the Limerick Historic Society as they don't have this either and this really is a one of a Kind.
Dave Z
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey
-----------------------------
Join The Swing To Kinsey
------------------------
Kinsey Gold & Kinsey Silver
Gary When I get to talk to Al I will ask him that question hopfully he can tell me after all these years I want to call him again soon as I really enjoyed talking to him and his memory is amazing! I am really glad I was able to find out about Angelo Myers for the sake of History.
Dave Z
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey
------------------------------

dave ziegler
09-03-2008, 09:58
Dave, also, is any info available on rye whiskey mashbills? My understanding is that pre- and immediate post-pro ryes were made with 80% rye and the rest barley malt. Of course each producer would have had his variations, but it would be interesting to know about rye mashbills since today we are told most ryes are only 51% rye (the rest corn and malt) or perhaps a little higher on the rye. Thanks

Gary
Gary & Fricky Here is what Al Landis had to say about Mr Kinsey's Rye. First He did make Kinsey Rye after Prohibition ended and Also started The Linfield brand name as " Linfield Striaght Rye Whiskey" Continental Changed it To LinField Straight Bourbon only for that Name after they Bought the Place. As far as Al remembers on the amount of Rye 'Mr Kinsey wanted to put as much pure Rye as he could' but when He had American Liqours in Boston doing it they demanded to be able to blend it somewhat with Malt saying People Liked it that way! He still very Much liked to go with as much straight rye as He could and most Likely some of his earlier Bottlings were about 81% Rye. As It was Al's dad Hoarce that was Master Distiller Al does no know what exactly the Mash bills would be. I caught him on the phone just as he was going to the Eye doctor driving Himself at 90 yrs old so I will ask more Questions when I can.
But Al told me for sure that Kinsey Straight Rye was still being Made and Also the New Label then Linfield Straight Rye after Prohibition ended. Later Linfield Bourbon. But Jacob G Kinsey Believed That Straight Rye Whiskey was the best and most Flavorfull of Whiskeys and He believed the More straight Rye the Better it would be! He made the Blended silver & Gold Whiskeys because of Presure from bottlers and Dealers to have those Products to after Prohibition ended.
Dave Z
Join The Swing To Kinsey
=======================

Gillman
09-03-2008, 11:01
Thanks much Dave and that does correlate to my historical knowledge.

And I agree with old Jake that straight rye made with a high rye content is a fine article of whiskey.

Gary

fricky
09-04-2008, 08:13
I was looking at the 1st pic on post #165 of the "my memories" thread where the distillery is pictured (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6787&d=1219695311) from the air. There are what appears to be at least four, 1 million barrel warehouses already on the site in 1937. Now, that is a lot of barrels. I might be tempted to say that Mr. Kinsey might have borrowed a few dollars to hook that kind of capacity up. I don't think BT even has half of that capacity, today.

So, I could really understand if Mr. Kinsey was in the position to be a motivated seller of his products. Plus, from what Dave has conveyed, he was a man with a big plan. Which, culminated with the size of establishment that dwarfs almost every other distillery that I have ever researched.

Jeff,
The warehouses that were in the 1937 photograph you referenced did not have 1 million-barrel capacity. The newer brick warehouses that still stand were the ones that held about 1 million barrels each. Apparently, they were built by Continental.
Doug

mozilla
09-04-2008, 11:22
I see from the pamphlet that they are kinda' small compared to the GIANT warehouses that litter the facility.

So, how many barrels do the older warehouses hold, Dave?

Good eye, Fricky!

dave ziegler
09-04-2008, 12:42
I see from the pamphlet that they are kinda' small compared to the GIANT warehouses that litter the facility.

So, how many barrels do the older warehouses hold, Dave?

Good eye, Fricky!
Thats an easy one Jeff 20,000 each on the 4 old Brick & Wood Warehouse and the Big Explosion Proof ones each held 999,999 = 333,333 per floor Told to me By Ludy also Al Landis in Extra strong steel Racks that were so well built that when Continental decided to take the Racks out they had to use a welding Machine Cutting stick to cut the Heavy Welds.

And Having to Haul them out and down to the Steer Pens I can tell you they were Heavy. So that is the amount of barrels of aging Whiskey and at that time it was the Largest amount of Aging Whiskey in the world in one spot so the paper states added together that comes too 14 + Million Barrels! Someone may have had more but I can't Imagine much more. Those Days Continental sat on some of the biggest supplies of Good Aging Whiskeys. Hard to believe it is all gone , once the bottling house opened up there, we were pulling barrels all the time. And No wonder We did much filling orders for other companies besides our own and no Company was afaid of Our Products as they were time Proven. My Feelings of Pride coming through.
Dave Z
Old Hickory America's Most Magnificent Bourbon
====================================
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey
-------------------------------

fricky
09-05-2008, 04:16
Dave,
I listened to Mike Veach's presentation "Doing Business During Prohibition". It was presented at the Filson Historical Society and they put it on Youtube. It is very interesting. It made me think of one question that Al Landis may be able to answer. What happened to the whiskey in the warehouses in Linfield during prohibition?
Doug

dave ziegler
09-05-2008, 05:40
Fricky I will ask Al as soon as I can. The way I came up with the amount each explosion proof Warehouse held was per a couple of the Old Timers First Ludy then Al and Another Person there also and they all said each of the New warehoues filled to max held 999.999 Barrels = 333.333 per floor 3 floors each now they were not always totally filled as we dumped regularly but as we dumped we would later be getting new stuff to age from Phila and putting it back in the racks to replace what was gone the last years it was more taking then filling! In the Old Wood & Brick ones they did not put as much back in as they had the oldest stuff and so special stuff was put in there like the 20th aniversary 100 pf Old Hickory they made!
Dave Z
Old Hickory America's Most magnificent bourbon
=====================================