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Jake_Parrott
01-12-2009, 09:59
As part of Constellation's $334M unloading of "value" spirits brands to Sazerac Company, the Tom Moore distillery ("Barton"), the only currently-running commercial bourbon still in Bardstown, is now owned by the folks who own Buffalo Trace. Speculations, anyone?

http://blog.maltadvocate.com/2009/01/12/tom-moore-distillery-ridgemont-reserve-bourbon-sold-to-sazerac/

Josh
01-12-2009, 10:11
:bigeyes: trying...not...to...panic...

funknik
01-12-2009, 10:27
I hope Josh doesn't have a coronary! I'm wondering if this might affect me in a positive way from a distribution sense. I see many more BT products up here in ME than Barton (in fact, I think the only one may be 1792 RR) and Sazerac Rye showed up a couple of months ago for the first time, so I thinnk BT is expanding up into this territory a little more. I know there's a good chance that things will change for those bottlings, but anything that brings a wider selection my way would be good, if only in a purely selfish way. However,it seems Sazerac is a pretty responsible and accountable company and BT seems to strive to maintain quality among the labels they have picked up...hopefully this will be true.

mozilla
01-12-2009, 10:43
I disagree. I have seen the before and after of many labels that BT has inherited. Not to say that they ruined them, but there is a definite difference between many of them. I feel they have mostly gone down hill to a degree. Are they still better than others on the market, yes. Are they as good as they could be.....hard to say. Many of the issues that BT runs into involve warehouse space to fully age all their stable of labels.

Also, this means that there is one less distillery flavor profile in the marketplace. I don't know how that translates to a "wider selection"? I feel that the consolidation of distilleries is ruining the complete "pie" of flavor profiles. Now, every Barton label will be filled with BT juice.

funknik
01-12-2009, 10:58
I disagree. I have seen the before and after of many labels that BT has inherited. Not to say that they ruined them, but there is a definite difference between many of them. I feel they have mostly gone down hill to a degree. Are they still better than others on the market, yes. Are they as good as they could be.....hard to say. Many of the issues that BT runs into involve warehouse space to fully age all their stable of labels.

Also, this means that there is one less distillery flavor profile in the marketplace. I don't know how that translates to a "wider selection"? I feel that the consolidation of distilleries is ruining the complete "pie" of flavor profiles. Now, every Barton label will be filled with BT juice.
Good point....I wasn't really thinking of it in terms of the long term, I guess I spoke before really hashing it all out. Obviously the less distilleries the less profiles -- being unfamiliar with Barton in general I wouldn't really be personally affected, but I feel sorry for those that will feel the pain on this one.

kickert
01-12-2009, 10:59
What is the chance that Sazerac would leave the distillery as is and allow it to continue production.

Josh
01-12-2009, 11:11
I'm not hyperventilating for the moment so I'll take this opportunity to respond.

There seem to be several possible senarios going forward from here. I'll start with the ones I like the best, and end with the worst.

1. Saz owns Barton, but basically leaves it alone. The bourbons continue to be made the same way and nothing really changes other than who signs the employee's paychecks.

B. Saz does consolidate, but the Barton "bite" retains its teeth and the Bardstown and Owensboro facilities remain largely the same.

III. Saz unloads Barton on somebody else (e.g. B-F) and they continue things unchanged (although they may sue themselves as in the Coke Zero commercials).

Delta- Saz spins off Barton or sells them to an independent or NDP (e.g. KBD)

5. Saz shuts down distilling at the B-town facilities, and folds Barton into BT, but makes an effort to keep VOB distinct from its other rye-flavored products.

F. The above, but no real effort is made to keep VOB distinct. It fills a price slot between BT & AAA or something like that.

VII. VOB and its kin die, but the distillery is kept open for bulk whiskey production

Zeta- Everything is killed, including all the employees at Bardstown and Owensboro!

9. BT uses the Barton name to launch a new line of "light" whiskey.

funknik
01-12-2009, 11:23
I'm not hyperventilating for the moment so I'll take this opportunity to respond.

There seem to be several possible scenarios going forward from here. I'll start with the ones I like the best, and end with the worst.
Josh, great rundown. I think (hope!) barring the last couple of options (I'd like to see the employees keep their lives :grin:), this won't be a terrible disaster. As long as these bottlings aren't ruined, I would think it's preferable to keep them out there rather than seeing them go the way of the dodo.

sku
01-12-2009, 11:33
Maybe BT will leave it alone but increase distribution of VOB. That's certainly something I'd like to see.

Josh
01-12-2009, 11:37
Maybe BT will leave it alone but increase distribution of VOB. That's certainly something I'd like to see.

Ditto. That could be a positive consequence of 1-5. Or maybe even a Barrel-proof Barton entry into the BTAC!

Hey, a guy can dream.

barturtle
01-12-2009, 11:37
I disagree. I have seen the before and after of many labels that BT has inherited. Not to say that they ruined them, but there is a definite difference between many of them. I feel they have mostly gone down hill to a degree. Are they still better than others on the market, yes. Are they as good as they could be.....hard to say. Many of the issues that BT runs into involve warehouse space to fully age all their stable of labels.

Also, this means that there is one less distillery flavor profile in the marketplace. I don't know how that translates to a "wider selection"? I feel that the consolidation of distilleries is ruining the complete "pie" of flavor profiles. Now, every Barton label will be filled with BT juice.

I think you are missing a couple points here, Jeff:

A: BT isn't exactly bristling with excess capacity, so it's unlikely that they would consider shutting down Tom Moore.

B: In every other case, when Sazerac has taken over a brand they have moved the production from one distillery to theirs.

So far, other than culling some labels to make room for new ones (as in, so they have enough aged spirit to meet demand for the newer label...and yes I miss most of those culled as much as you do) Sazerac has been very flexible in maintaining as much of the original character of the inherited brands as can be reasonably expected.

In this case, they will have the original distillery, be able to operate it with the same folks that have been producing the brands all this time, so I foresee little change in the quality of those products.

However, Sazerac does have a love of special editions and the ability to market them quite well. I wouldn't expact it to be long before they've scouted the warehouses for some lovely barrels to be dispensed out to those of us who are willing to pay the modest (or not) price of admission.

Rughi
01-12-2009, 13:28
Had the Tom Moore visitors center even opened before they sold the plant?



However, Sazerac does have a love of special editions and the ability to market them quite well. I wouldn't expact it to be long before they've scouted the warehouses for some lovely barrels to be dispensed out to those of us who are willing to pay the modest (or not) price of admission.

Yes Timothy, my first thought exactly,

There are members here who've been pining to get some of the special Ridgemont juice in barrel proof form.

I lust after a barrel proof of their excellent rye, which is almost impossible to find except in 80 proof handles in Fond-du-Lac Wisconsin (and maybe not even there anymore).

I believe that BT distills flat-out, for the full seasons they can. I would hope that they don't shut down the stills at Tom Moore.

I was thinking to myself this could be heaven or this could be hell.
Roger

shoshani
01-12-2009, 15:12
While I applaud what would seem to be improved distribution for these brands, I do wonder a) what is the current state of the Barton portfolio, especially in regard to their 100 proof expressions, and b) will Sazerac retain any 100 proof expressions still extant?

It seems to me that Buffalo Trace has an overwhelming preference for 80 and 90 proof bottlings. I've heard very good things about the 100 proof expressions of Kentucky Gentleman/Tavern and Tom Moore but they are impossible to find...do/will they still exist? I'm guessing that nobody knows.

Just because an existing distillery owner buys another distillery doesn't mean that that distillery closes...look at Maker's Mark, which seems to be doing well in an existence independent of the Boston and Clermont complexes of Jim Beam.

There are also many other possibilities of combining all the various mashbills and warehousings to create new high-quality brands of bourbon. This has just as much potential for bourbon bliss as it does for utter decimation of some time-honored brands.

Slob
01-12-2009, 15:54
I've only ever had Ten High. If BT can make it better, fine. But I'll be dismayed if they do anything that raises the price.

cowdery
01-12-2009, 17:34
Speculation is fine, but there may be some shoes left to drop.

Constellation's press release is here (http://www.cbrands.com/CBI/constellationbrands/HomePage/FinancialNews/news_0002.html).

My musings on the subject are here (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2009/01/constellation-gets-out-of-american.html).

Consider that Buffalo Trace is one of the few distilleries in Kentucky and Tennessee that still has excess production capacity, so why do they need another distillery and two more bottling houses?

ThomasH
01-12-2009, 17:59
I vote for the introduction of the BAC (Barton Antique Collection). Specifically some barrel proof Ridgemont Reserve, Tom Moore/Kentucky Tavern and especially Fleischmans rye. I would even be happy to get some regular Fleischman's rye. Lets hope that BT has the good sense to keep the Tom Moore distillery operating!

Thomas

schlep
01-12-2009, 18:26
Too bad Sazerac didn't get the O.F.C. (originally Old Fire Copper) brand from Constellation in the deal and return it to its original home (now BT).

Hondo
01-12-2009, 18:47
Damn... I don't do change very well. I'm going to lay in a heavy supply of my favorite VOB's just in case. :skep:

Josh
01-12-2009, 18:51
I've only ever had Ten High. If BT can make it better, fine. But I'll be dismayed if they do anything that raises the price.

You haven't lived until you've had VOB, my friend. Find it or get a friend to get it for you. It don't get much better than that.

kickert
01-12-2009, 19:22
I am not a huge fan of Barton Brands, but for the price I think I will pick up a few handles of VOB BIB. We will all soon sit back and talk about how much we miss the old flavor profile of VOB before it was sold to BT

craigthom
01-12-2009, 19:28
It seems to me that Buffalo Trace has an overwhelming preference for 80 and 90 proof bottlings. I've heard very good things about the 100 proof expressions of Kentucky Gentleman/Tavern and Tom Moore but they are impossible to find...do/will they still exist? I'm guessing that nobody knows.

This is what strikes me, too. Does BT make any 100 proof or more whiskeys besides Weller Antique and the two barrel proof BTACs? Will the BIB bourbons disappear?

It seems that Tom Moore and Heaven Hill are the two distilleries that keep large numbers of limited distribution whiskeys, both bourbons and blends. Will some of these be culled? BT has the AAA 10yr, which is only available in Kentucky, but do they have any others?

And, finally, we do have an example of what Sazerac has done with another bourbon distillery in Virginia. It's my understanding that Virginia Gentlemen is now distilled in Frankfort and trucked to Fredericksburg.

Virus_Of_Life
01-12-2009, 20:01
This is what strikes me, too. Does BT make any 100 proof or more whiskeys besides Weller Antique and the two barrel proof BTACs? Will the BIB bourbons disappear?


They have Ancient Age BiB, Rock Hill Farms is 100 proof I believe and I seem to recall at one time was a BiB and the new Charter 101. That's all I can think of immediately off hand.

Since I'm posting I'll add my opinion in that I really hope they do not shut down Tom Moore. That said I am not at all a fan if RR1792 but do appreciate the VOB; although from what I recall they themselves have already changed the 100 proof expression to no longer being Bottled in Bond. I'd like to have tasted some of the others but never commited to memory which were their (KTavern/KGentleman) when I was in Kentucky which is probably the only place I'd seem them.

shoshani
01-12-2009, 21:48
And, finally, we do have an example of what Sazerac has done with another bourbon distillery in Virginia. It's my understanding that Virginia Gentlemen is now distilled in Frankfort and trucked to Fredericksburg.

Yes and no, and Sazerac had nothing to do with it.

Jay Adams moved operations from Reston to Fredericksburg in 1987. Shortly thereafter he stopped doing the entire process in Virginia, instead contracting with Heaven Hill to do the first two distillations of his 65% corn 20% rye 15% Malt mashbill at Bardstown, while Adams finished off the third distillation in a pot still at Fredericksburg.

I do not know when BT took ownership of Virginia Gentleman, but my guess is that it happened after Heaven Hill bought Bernheim. However, it's been 1996 since any all-Virginia Virginia Gentleman was bottled. That's before the Heaven Hill fire, and thus before Sazerac's ownership.

boss302
01-13-2009, 02:55
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but does Barton make anything of solid quality other than 1792?

The rest of their bourbon lineup-- with the singular exception of Very Old Barton (does that bottle remind anyone else of Weller Antique?)-- looks like cheap "Jug bourbon."

mozilla
01-13-2009, 07:26
Here is my two cents:

I love Bib and 100 proof whisky. I have found Colonel Lee and Tom Moore are two of my go to flavors. The TM is feisty and full bodied while the Colonel Lee seemed to be a little more sophisticated with caramel and softer tones. I have yet to try the other lower Bib's since they are a little hard to find here.
From what I have been told...the Tom Moore line-up goes like this:
1792 is the high rye mashbill.
Everything else is a version of the low rye mashbill. They profile each label in this catagory to taste a little different but not totally different. VOB is the oldest, with the 6 yr age statement. Everything else is NAS.

I find their 80, 86 and 90 proof versions are excellent for their specific price range. IMO, their juice is slightly better than the average producer and they don't advertise which makes the final price allign with my budgetary constraints on a daily basis.

koji
01-13-2009, 07:43
Wow, big news to me too.
I love Barton Bourbon, especially there 100 Proof bottles.
I hope it stays as it is.

Next thing you know Wild Turkey might be owned by one
another Kentucky distiller...

I like all bourbon, and I like them more if they are all owned
by different companies.

Koji
Bourbon Lover in Japan

smokinjoe
01-13-2009, 08:18
It would seem to me to be a pretty big risk for Sazerac to do much tinkering with the VOB brand, and the Tom Moore distillery in Bardstown. I believe that VOB is the #1 selling bourbon in Kentucky. For practical and PR reasons, changing or killing such a brand that is so popular with our friends in the Bourbon Motherland could be dangerous. Also, business is business I know, but shuttering the only distillery in the Heart of the Motherland could result in a serious backlash from Kentuckians. I would think that Saz would take advantage of such a meaningful location, rather than destroy it.

On a side note, I remember that in the recent past there were some problems, possibly resulting in litigation, with the black fungus/smell problem in Bardstown, that was due to Barton's distillery. Is it still ongoing?

BourbonJoe
01-13-2009, 08:54
If I have learned anything about Kentucky Distilling politics it is "whatever will be - will be". Let's wait and see.
Joe :usflag:

shoshani
01-13-2009, 09:49
I believe that VOB is the #1 selling bourbon in Kentucky. For practical and PR reasons, changing or killing such a brand that is so popular with our friends in the Bourbon Motherland could be dangerous.

*cough*Yellowstone*cough*

:D

mozilla
01-13-2009, 10:38
*cough*Yellowstone*cough*

:D


Great point!
It has happened before it will happen again. What about Old Taylor and Old Grand Dad? Both were outstanding distilleries and now neither has working stills. What did Beam then do...rebuild or buy two more(MM and B Noe Distillery).

shoshani
01-13-2009, 13:49
What's sad to consider is that even if Yellowstone or Old Taylor or Old Grand Dad continued, they probably would not be the same today as they were in their prime.

At the very least the barrelling proof has gone up considerably from what it used to be, and that means that more water is added (and more flavor diluted) to bring the final whiskey down to bottling proof.

But other things have changed too, and lots of little changes add up to large changes overall.

Oh yeah...I think the word they use for this is "Progress"... :)

cowdery
01-13-2009, 14:57
We really need to see how this shakes out, because there are still some question marks. My sense is that there is nothing wrong with the business BT bought. It wasn't sold because that business was in distress, it was sold because the parent needed cash so it sold something it had, outside its core business, that someone else was willing to pay good money for. By the same token, BT wasn't buying because it needed something, but because it had the money, saw the opportunity, didn't want the competition to grab it, and they figured that with their structure, they could run that business just as profitably as Constellation did, so they'll probably, mostly leave it alone and make some tweaks along the edges, as Beam has done with Maker's.

You can't compare any of this to what Beam did in 1987 when it acquired National because then the American whiskey business was in the dumper. Beam wasn't running its own distilleries at anything close to capacity, so it certainly didn't need two more. Since Beam bought the whole company, they had to take the things they didn't particularly want (the bourbon brands and their distilleries) to get what they wanted (DeKuyper liqueurs, believe it or not).

ratcheer
01-13-2009, 15:30
What I want to know is why Sazerac wanted to buy so many un-productive brands? Constellation seemed to be bragging on getting rid of them and Sazerac (Mark Brown) basically just said, "What Constellation said". Constellation said that all these brands counted for 60% of their volume but only 30% of their profits. Also that none of these brands were showing any growth potential and most of them actually have falling sales. They even loaned Sazerac the money to buy them with.

Sazerac must be thinking they're gaining something, but what?

Tim

Rughi
01-13-2009, 15:43
lso that none of these brands were showing any growth potential and most of them actually have falling sales. They even loaned Sazerac the money to buy them with.
Tim

I'd bet Sazerac is pretty confident with their ability to build brands and create buzz - which is the very thing Barton was least good at. BT has an exciting portfolio of what had been okay or moribund performing products - to the point that they now allocate and suspend brands just to be able to fill their orders.

My money is on Sazerac creating a lot of excitement and premium with the same juice that Barton was putting in bottom shelf handles and saying had no potential.

Roger

OscarV
01-13-2009, 15:53
It is to bad that there is one less bourbon distiller but if it had to happen I am glad to see that it is going to Sazerac.
They are creative as you all know with the new things that Buffalo Trace has put on the market since they got them.

craigthom
01-13-2009, 17:24
The press release says that the sale includes the Tom Moore distillery, but it doesn't exclude the Atlanta distillery. I don't know if it is still operating, but they've got all that rot gut white liquor, and they are either buying bulk ethanol or distilling it themselves.

The sale does include the cheap Barton vodka and gin, according to the press release. There's a whole bunch of non-whiskey booze coming Sazerac's way. Maybe they'll sell that stuff, but maybe not.

barturtle
01-13-2009, 18:08
The sale does include the cheap Barton vodka and gin, according to the press release. There's a whole bunch of non-whiskey booze coming Sazerac's way. Maybe they'll sell that stuff, but maybe not.

I'd guess it would be hard to have multiple offering that carry the same brand name coming from different companies...It'd probably be hard to sell the brand without selling the whole thing...

craigthom
01-13-2009, 18:08
I found a DSP number (or equivalent) for the Barton Atlanta distillery (6), but I can't find anything else out.

I did discover that they own or owned the Viking Distillery in Albany, Georgia. Interestingly, the Viking Distillery introduced Georgia Moon in the late 1950s, and they were the first to put it in mason jars. Somewhere along the line Heaven Hill acquired the brand while Barton got the distillery.

doubleblank
01-13-2009, 18:51
I tried the old fashioned approach and contacted Kris Comstock and Mark Brown. "1792" was pretty much their response as to why do the deal. Plus the additional capacities they get in many areas. Lots of details still to be worked out with Barton. They haven't begun to think about new products that could result from the purchase.

Randy

callmeox
01-13-2009, 18:54
....and thusly the BOTY earns his title all over again. :cool:

Thanks for the insider info.

shoshani
01-13-2009, 21:05
I look forward to this just because we can finally, once and for all, get a handle on what Barton was selling...at least to the point of what BT chooses to retain.

Barton didn't do much advertising, and their web presence was minimal. They made Tom Moore in 80 proof; did they still make 100 proof? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on who you ask. The same name could be on an 80 proof straight whiskey, a 100 proof BIB, and a blended whiskey. Distribution of Barton whiskey, at least in the Chicago area market, is flat-out abysmal. Kentucky Tavern 80, Ten High 80, VOB 80-86-90-100. That's pretty much it.

BT, by comparison, has excellent distribution. They have solid shelf space for all their brands, and the stores seem genuinely interested in featuring them.

Will prices go up on the now-former Barton brands? I wouldn't put it past them, just to keep the venture afloat. But I would predict a dollar, maybe two retail. People who know why people buy certain things are fully aware that VOB has a standing as an excellent first-choice whiskey that sells for $10 a bottle. Under BT, maybe it will go up to $12. Considering that Weller starts at $12 and that Elmer sells for $20, I seriously do not expect them to start charging premium prices for what has previously been sold more or less as "commodity" whiskey. I don't think the market will bear it.

But hey. This is whiskey, and in whiskey anything is possible.

mozilla
01-13-2009, 21:31
Tom Moore Bib has been on the shelves in Texas for as long as I can remember.

Also, Bartons labels don't taste that different, so, the labels that are in Chicago amount to all their flavors. The only one you didn't list is 1792. If you get that one...you were getting all the flavors of whisky that Barton made. What else could they have done better?

trx450
01-14-2009, 10:30
Since Beam bought the whole company, they had to take the things they didn't particularly want (the bourbon brands and their distilleries) to get what they wanted (DeKuyper liqueurs, believe it or not).


You're exactly right.Dekuyper is one of Beam's biggest money makers.Very low cost to produce.

Josh
01-14-2009, 13:01
You're exactly right.Dekuyper is one of Beam's biggest money makers.Very low cost to produce.

Wasn't the Mr. Boston line of liqueurs a part of the Constellation/Sazerac deal too? Maybe that played a similar role here.

Anyway, now that I've calmed down, I'm cautiously optimistic. If Ten High, VOB 80 and Barton Rum leave the shelves, I doubt any tears will be shed. But I do hope that the Saz/BT folks have enough sense to keep VOB around. And hopefully those of us in the diaspora can start getting as much of it as those in the promised land currently do.

cowdery
01-14-2009, 22:24
The traditional threshhold in the distilled spirits for a "major" brand is one-million cases. It's still a big deal. In American whiskey, for example, only Jack Daniel's, Jim Beam and Evan Williams are million-case brands. (Multi-million, in the cases of Jim and Jack.) I think Early Times is still up there too, maybe Wild Turkey, but there aren't too many, if any, others. Maker's Mark is close.

In 1987, DeKuyper Peachtree Schnapps was a million-case brand.

When you buy a broad portfolio, you always get a mix. I would say most of the acquired brands are good, solid earners, but not generally brands you're going to build on and develop. Apparently 1792 is growing in double-digits and is in a different category, but Barton was making money with its cats-and-dogs portfolio and I'm sure Sazerac believes it can leverage them against its own line to create a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Being in the cats and dogs booze business is like investing in T-bills, low risk, low return, but if the business was profitable today it probably will be just as profitable tomorrow. Most businesses, just like most investors, like to have some of that to balance out their riskier ventures.

I also went on a little nostalgia trip tonight for Barton. You can read that here (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2009/01/little-bit-more-about-barton-sale.html).

shoshani
01-15-2009, 01:10
I've seen ads from National Distillers where they profiled non-whiskey spirits that they imported - Gilbey's Gin, Black & White Scotch - but no real advertising of their domestic spirits with their own name featured. Seagram's, by contrast, was advertising its antique bottle gin all over the place.

American Whiskey lovers tend to forget that, in many cases, white spirits and liqueurs/cordials are what keep the places open so they can produce whiskey.

Speaking of Gilbey's gin, I remember a horrifying print ad campaign they did in the 80s, in which the Jazz Age and the 1920s were both invoked and evoked, and claims were made with a straight face that Gilbey's was America's favorite gin during the Roaring Twenties. Considering that most gin consumed in America at that time came from bathtubs, I think that the marketing department of [insert conglomerate owner of the time] really needed some remedial history lessons.

Attila
01-15-2009, 01:44
Does BT make any 100 proof or more whiskeys besides Weller Antique and the two barrel proof BTACs?

Blanton's is a BT brand.
Straight from the Cask is 132 proof.
Gold is 103 proof.
Silver barely misses your threshold being at 98%.

kickert
01-15-2009, 06:09
Blanton's is a BT brand.
Straight from the Cask is 132 proof.
Gold is 103 proof.
Silver barely misses your threshold being at 98%.

The other 100+ are Weller Antique, ORVW10/107 and Pappy 15

As far as I know, they don't have any "Bonded" bourbons.

birdman1099
01-15-2009, 06:46
Don't forget RHF !!!

kickert
01-15-2009, 07:02
Don't forget RHF !!!

Birdman, you are my hero. I had no idea RHF was 100 proof. Since I was disappointed with Blanton's I was hesitate to put down a high price for RHF. This will make my hit list.

barturtle
01-15-2009, 08:32
The other 100+ are Weller Antique, ORVW10/107 and Pappy 15

As far as I know, they don't have any "Bonded" bourbons.

Ancient Age Bottled In Bond is available.

mozilla
01-15-2009, 08:36
There were a few others...Old Charter 7/100 Bib, Eagle Rare 10/101, AA 107, wasn't there also an ETL at 107? Also now, Charter 101.

NewBob
01-15-2009, 08:36
Tom Moore was in the process of building a Visitor's Center in Bardstown. Do you think the building costs were getting high or that this was an effort to attract buyers?

mozilla
01-15-2009, 08:40
It seems as though they were looking for some good press in the last 6 months or more. They changed their name and got involved with the Urban Bourbon Trail.

shoshani
01-15-2009, 13:14
There were a few others...Old Charter 7/100 Bib, Eagle Rare 10/101, AA 107, wasn't there also an ETL at 107? Also now, Charter 101.

I've only known of a 90 Elmer; in fact, the original label on the old tall square bottle quoted Elmer T. Lee as having wanted to make a bourbon for real bourbon folk, "one that tastes best out on the front porch...all 90 proof of it".

I had Ancient Age Barrel 107 years and years ago. I wasn't terribly impressed with it then but I have a feeling that I would like it now. It was a very..."dark" whiskey. Not sure how to put it into words, it wasn't particularly heavy, just..maybe tinged with unsweetened cocoa.

Rock Hill Farms was a BiB the first time I tried it. It isn't any more, but since it's a single barrel the BiB designation was pretty much pointless. Any single barrel is going to be from a single distillery and a single distilling season...

mozilla
01-15-2009, 13:27
I've only known of a 90 Elmer; in fact, the original label on the old tall square bottle quoted Elmer T. Lee as having wanted to make a bourbon for real bourbon folk, "one that tastes best out on the front porch...all 90 proof of it".

Thanks to John Lipman for this photo...
http://www.ellenjaye.com/harper-age.jpg

ETL 107

cowdery
01-15-2009, 17:36
I've thought a lot about whether the changes Constellation made to its spirits business over the past year were all in anticipation of a sale and I do not think they were. The hiring of Pam Gover and the planning of the visitor's center began more than a year ago, for example. I think the sale came about rather quickly as they posted their quarterly results and realized they needed an infusion of cash to reduce their debt. They had an asset outside of their core business that would return $334,000,000, so they sold it.

jburlowski
01-15-2009, 17:44
Being in the cats and dogs booze business is like investing in T-bills, low risk, low return, but if the business was profitable today it probably will be just as profitable tomorrow. Most businesses, just like most investors, like to have some of that to balance out their riskier ventures.



Bad analogy... T-bills have been trading recently a near zero to negative returns.

shoshani
01-15-2009, 18:13
Thanks to John Lipman for this photo...
http://www.ellenjaye.com/harper-age.jpg

ETL 107

That loud CLANG you just heard was my jaw hitting the floor.

I want a time machine. I want it ten minutes ago. And I want it to take me to wherever ETL 107 was found!

barturtle
05-04-2009, 19:44
Mostly a jobs article, but some good info on the plans

http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2009/04/27/daily55.html?ana=from_rss

DowntownD
05-04-2009, 21:17
interesting news.

I think 1792 is ok, having had some twice recently. I'd certainly be willing to try a barrel proof version.

but, what I found even more interesting was these two things:



I lust after a barrel proof of their excellent rye, which is almost impossible to find except in 80 proof handles in Fond-du-Lac Wisconsin (and maybe not even there anymore).

What's this barrel proof Rye you speak of that comes in handles? I definitely need to try some of that if it's still available. Any members in Wisconsin that can check and maybe help out?


Thanks to John Lipman for this photo...
http://www.ellenjaye.com/harper-age.jpg

ETL 107

And oh my, seriously, I need some of that. Any idea how long ago it was produced, for how long, and in what numbers? I would LOVE to try it.

barturtle
05-04-2009, 21:21
What's this barrel proof Rye you speak of that comes in handles? I definitely need to try some of that if it's still available. Any members in Wisconsin that can check and maybe help out?


Rughi is longing for a barrel proof example of Fleischmann's Rye, which even at 80 proof is quite nice.

barturtle
05-04-2009, 21:28
I'll go ahead and admit that I lust after such a bottling as well.

p_elliott
05-05-2009, 08:14
Mostly a jobs article, but some good info on the plans

http://www.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2009/04/27/daily55.html?ana=from_rss


On the surface it sounds promising for the Thomas Moore employees and the area in general.