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Blitz
03-09-2009, 18:52
I just took a bourbon quiz on-line. I got one answer wrong. Would you have answered correct? Here's the question:


TRUE OR FALSE:

Kentucky is the only state allowed to put its name on a bourbon label.


No looking it up. Just hit reply and answer. We'll see how everybody does.

ACDetroit
03-09-2009, 18:55
I just took a bourbon quiz on-line. I got one answer wrong. Would you have answered correct? Here's the question:


TRUE OR FALSE:

Kentucky is the only state allowed to put its name on a bourbon label.


No looking it up. Just hit reply and answer. We'll see how everybody does.

False! I have bourbon from other states

Bourbon Geek
03-09-2009, 18:56
False ... Reference Virginia Gentleman Bourbon

Lost Pollito
03-09-2009, 19:18
100% false!!! I just tasted some bourbon from Tuthilltown, NY.

Hondo
03-09-2009, 19:22
False... which by itself is not sixteen characters...

kickert
03-09-2009, 19:37
False, Virgina Gentleman and Hudson Bay to name a few.

Blitz
03-09-2009, 19:44
....The question isn't if bourbon can be made in other states:skep:

kickert
03-09-2009, 19:56
....The question isn't if bourbon can be made in other states:skep:

Doesn't matter

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8416&d=1236348674

Lost Pollito
03-09-2009, 20:23
Other states can put the label bourbon on there products, so long as they follow the rules. 51% corn, new oak barrells ,etc. What they can't put , is Kentucky Straight Bourbon.

Blitz
03-09-2009, 20:23
Doesn't matter

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8416&d=1236348674

Have you found the rule, or the exception?

kickert
03-09-2009, 20:26
Have you found the rule, or the exception?

Well it only takes one example to prove the following is not true:

Kentucky is the only state allowed to put its name on a bourbon label.

Plus, if a distillery is able to produce bourbon in other states, they must be able to put that on the label when they identify their location.

kickert
03-09-2009, 20:36
BTW... where is this quiz, I would be interested in taking it.

Klepackage
03-09-2009, 21:00
A Colorado bourbon with the state's name on the label.

http://www.peachstreetdistillers.com/prod-bourbon.htm

Blitz
03-09-2009, 21:32
Here's the answer. Don't shoot the messenger. Remember this started because I was thinking the same as you guys. It's from the Knob Creek web site. You have to register. It's called the 'Bernie Lubber label reading quiz'. Anybody heard of him? The quiz is only six questions. Not really worth the effort.


So, I said False. This is what it came back with:


Wrong. Though bourbon can be made anywhere in the U.S., Kentucky is the only state that can be mentioned on a bourbon label.


Seems we have a controversy to resolve.

Squash
03-09-2009, 22:03
We know from the above link to peachtreedistillers.com that

"Though bourbon can be made anywhere in the U.S., Kentucky is the only state that can be mentioned on a bourbon label."

is false, though perhaps peachtreedistillers has made a transgression in their labeling.

I would have answered true.

I would also say that a Virgina Gentleman is a man, not a state, and Hudson Bay is a body of water, not a state.

sku
03-09-2009, 22:41
Sounds like hokum to me. There is nothing in the regs that says anything about using states on the label. The word Kentucky doesn't even appear in them. We all know that Bourbon can be made anywhere in the US and I would be surprised if there is some authority saying only Kentucky can be on the bottle.

CygnusX-1
03-09-2009, 22:44
The Virginia Gentleman 80 says Virginia Bourbon on the the label

cowdery
03-09-2009, 22:44
False, although this is a very persistent myth.

Bernie Lubbers is a Jim Beam shill, a trained monkey who doesn't know anything that Jim Kokoris didn't tell him. Perfect example of Jim Beam spreading sloppy information. I defy anyone to cite the rule, because it doesn't exist.

It's not even logical. The government of Kentucky has no jurisdiction outside of Kentucky, so it can't be their rule, and why would the federal government give that special protection to Kentucky?

Who ya gonna believe, me or Bernie Lubbers?

Lost Pollito
03-09-2009, 22:48
We know from the above link to peachtreedistillers.com that

"Though bourbon can be made anywhere in the U.S., Kentucky is the only state that can be mentioned on a bourbon label."

is false, though perhaps peachtreedistillers has made a transgression in their labeling.

I would have answered true.

I would also say that a Virgina Gentleman is a man, not a state, and Hudson Bay is a body of water, not a state.
That body of water sure makes great bourbon.:cool:

Klepackage
03-09-2009, 23:06
It's not even logical. The government of Kentucky has no jurisdiction outside of Kentucky, so it can't be their rule, and why would the federal government give that special protection to Kentucky?

Were it true, it would hardly be surprising. The government has done many things with less logic.

spun_cookie
03-10-2009, 00:23
Who ya gonna believe, me or Bernie Lubbers?

Well, in this case you. I have never seen (pick a state) straight bourbon whiskey, but as far as I can tell there is no reason you could not have it. In fact, I am sure that over time you will as a slap at the KY dominated market.

I would love a glass of the Cowdery Straight Illinois Bourbon Whiskey.

8-15 yrs, 100-103 proof please Chuck with a nice rye & wheat blend for the mash.

Blitz
03-10-2009, 11:13
Well, I sent them an email question asking for the source of their claim. See what happens.

bourbonv
03-10-2009, 12:56
The regulations for whiskey written right after prohibition specifically said no other state could be used as a descriptor to the term "Straight Bourbon" except Kentucky. I have seen it as well in books stating the regulations for the different types of whiskey written in the 1950's. If this has changed, then I would say it came with Reagan's de-regulation of the industry in the 1980's. I doubt that the distillers would want to change that regulation so I would say "True" is the correct answer to the question.

Mike Veach

ratcheer
03-10-2009, 14:54
False. I know I have had bourbon from Pennsylvania and Illinois.

Tim

smokinjoe
03-10-2009, 15:13
Wow. You have 2 people (Chuck C. and Mike V.), whose opinions in bourbon matters I respect extremely much, giving opposing answers on this. This would lead me to believe that the regs must be fairly muddled, for this to be so.

jburlowski
03-10-2009, 16:15
FWIW, Woodstone Creek is labeled "Straight Bourbon Whiskey" and not "Ohio Straight Bourbon Whiskey". They do, however, list Cincinnati, OH as the place of origin.

Edward_call_me_Ed
03-10-2009, 17:18
The statement is False.

Ed

Blitz
03-10-2009, 19:33
Wow. You have 2 people (Chuck C. and Mike V.), whose opinions in bourbon matters I respect extremely much, giving opposing answers on this. This would lead me to believe that the regs must be fairly muddled, for this to be so.

A virtual bourbon history cage match.

callmeox
03-10-2009, 19:40
I'm just chomping at the bit waiting for my first taste of New Jersey Straight Bourbon Whiskey!

The water...it glows!

callmeox
03-10-2009, 20:03
From the electronic TTB resource (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=33fc0c0194b58b6fe95208945b5c637a;rg n=div5;view=text;node=27%3A1.0.1.1.3;idno=27;cc=ec fr)

There shall be stated:
(a) On the brand label:
(1) Brand name.
(2) Class and type, in accordance with §5.35.
(3) Alcoholic content, in accordance with §5.37.
(4) In the case of distilled spirits packaged in containers for which no standard of fill is prescribed in §5.47, net contents in accordance with §5.38(b) or §5.38a(b)(2).
(b) On the brand label or on a back label:
(1) Name and address, in accordance with §5.36.
(2) In the case of imported spirits, the country of origin, in accordance with §5.36.




{{snip}}


(10) State of distillation of domestic types of whisky and straight whisky, except light whisky and blends, in accordance with §5.36.






And, 5.36 d says (emphasis mine)....


(d) State of distillation. Except in the case of “light whisky”, “blended light whisky”, “blended whisky”, “a blend of straight whiskies”, or “spirit whisky”, the State of distillation shall be shown on the label of any whisky produced in the United States if the whisky is not distilled in the State given in the address on the brand label. The appropriate TTB officer may, however, require the State of distillation to be shown on the label or he may permit such other labeling as may be necessary to negate any misleading or deceptive impression which might be created as to the actual State of distillation. In the case of “light whisky”, as defined in §5.22(b)(3), the State of distillation shall not appear in any manner on any label, when the appropriate TTB officer finds such State is associated by consumers with an American type whisky, except as a part of a name and address as set forth in paragraph (a) of this section.


------------


Also, the word Kentucky appears zero times in the regs, so it looks like this is indeed false.

smokinjoe
03-10-2009, 20:25
I'm just chomping at the bit waiting for my first taste of New Jersey Straight Bourbon Whiskey!

The water...it glows!

:lol: Hey, no disparaging the Garden State! :D Ya know, they could say "Ohio Straight Bourbon Whiskey, from the Cuyahoga. 'Really, it IS Firewater!' " :D

callmeox
03-10-2009, 20:34
That would have to be some old whiskey (http://www.cuyahogariverrap.org/YOTR/yotr.html) to keep up with truth in labeling. :grin:

bourbonv
03-11-2009, 08:27
The rule as I have always read it states that any state can make bourbon whiskey. They can call it 'Straight Bourbon Whiskey", but only Kentucky can add its name to that term, and then only if it is made and aged at least two years in Kentucky can it be called "Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey". Virginia Gentleman is still just "Straight Bourbon Whiskey" even though the label does require that they state where the bourbon came from on the label. I assume this regulation is still in place because I have heard several of the distillers make a point of this regulation at bourbon dinners and other bourbon events.

Mike Veach

barturtle
03-11-2009, 09:07
The rule as I have always read it states that any state can make bourbon whiskey. They can call it 'Straight Bourbon Whiskey", but only Kentucky can add its name to that term, and then only if it is made and aged at least two years in Kentucky can it be called "Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey". Virginia Gentleman is still just "Straight Bourbon Whiskey" even though the label does require that they state where the bourbon came from on the label. I assume this regulation is still in place because I have heard several of the distillers make a point of this regulation at bourbon dinners and other bourbon events.

Mike Veach

I have read that many times, and I have searched and searched for where that regulation might be. I have still not seen a bottling labeled as " State Straight Bourbon Whiskey" other than Kentucky. If anyone knows where such a rule exists, please point me in its direction.

cowdery
03-11-2009, 09:46
The regulations for whiskey written right after prohibition specifically said no other state could be used as a descriptor to the term "Straight Bourbon" except Kentucky. I have seen it as well in books stating the regulations for the different types of whiskey written in the 1950's. If this has changed, then I would say it came with Reagan's de-regulation of the industry in the 1980's. I doubt that the distillers would want to change that regulation so I would say "True" is the correct answer to the question.

Mike Veach

Is it possible that what you have seen are references to the same, long-standing myth? I have reviewed the standards of identity thoroughly and the rule is not there. At one point, after hearing Jim Rutledge refer to it in one of his presentations (and we all know Jim is very thorough and careful about his facts) I asked him if he could provide a citation. He checked with his legal people, who told him the rule doesn't exist, and he dropped it from his presentations.

It is also very hard to think of a rationale for such a rule. Obviously, the Kentucky producers would like it, but why would the TTB go along?

What does exist is a rule that any place-of-origin statement must be true, so there is a rule that prevents a bourbon made in, say, Vermont, from being falsely labeled as KSBW, but why would there be a rule to prevent it from being labeled as Vermont Straight Bourbon Whiskey? What would be the purpose of such a rule? The purpose of the standards of identity is consumer protection, so the consumer can be assured of the integrity and authenticity (though not necessarily the quality) of the product. How would such a rule serve that end?

Clearly, the names of other states do appear on labels of bourbon and other whiskey, but there is presently no other state whose name appears in the formulation "_______ Straight Bourbon Whiskey," but why couldn't there be?

As with the question of whether or not Jack Daniel's could be a bourbon, people have a tendency, when there are no instances of a thing, to assume that is the case because the thing (whatever it is) is prohibited, but it's also possible nobody ever wanted to do it. When Ten High and other bourbons were made in Illinois, it was felt that was a negative or, at least, not a positive. I'm also not sure when "KSBW" became common, though it has never been universal.

Obviously, you cannot prove a negative, but I'm unconvinced that such a rule exists. Whether or not it ever existed is a different question, but I doubt that as well for the reasons listed above.

callmeox
03-11-2009, 10:27
Perhaps it is as simple as calling it Ohio or Illinois or Pennsylvania Straight Bourbon Whiskey wouldn't be considered a positive selling point, so that is left off the brand label for marketing reasons?

bourbonv
03-11-2009, 11:13
Chuck,
It is possible that this was one of the self regulations the industry created for itself after prohibition. If that is the case then there would be no legal basis for the rule. Like I said, I have seen it in writings from the 1930's and as late as the 1950's. I will have to check my files at home and see if I have vopies and if I do then I will send copies to you.

Another possibility is that there are clear rules about what can be called "Kentucky Straight Bourbon" and those regulations mutated in people's minds to create the story. I have never seen a label with "Indiana" or "Ohio" or "Illinois" or 'Missouri" even "Virginia" "Straight Bourbon" on old bottle labels. If they could do so then, why didn't they? is the next question I would ask. The old bottle of "Fairfax County Bourbon" in the U D archive simply described itself as "Straight Bourbon", not Virginia Straight Bourbon.

Mike Veach

Blitz
03-11-2009, 11:54
This is so interesting. I found Mr. Lubbers direct contact information and emailed him the question as well.

Klepackage
03-11-2009, 13:06
For Tim,

As I previously posted, here is a link to Colorado Straight Bourbon Whiskey.

http://www.peachstreetdistillers.com/prod-bourbon.htm

Sometimes they leave off the "Whiskey" part, but the confusion stems over the usage of the state name.

p_elliott
03-12-2009, 08:13
For Tim,

As I previously posted, here is a link to Colorado Straight Bourbon Whiskey.

http://www.peachstreetdistillers.com/prod-bourbon.htm

Sometimes they leave off the "Whiskey" part, but the confusion stems over the usage of the state name.


$58 for a two year old bourbon not in this life time!

Blitz
03-24-2009, 10:50
Well, Knob Creek's customer service department finally got back to me on this issue. They said:

Thanks for the return email. I spoke with Bernie on Friday and we looked over the quiz and noticed that there was an error on the web site. It's currently in the process of being fixed. Thanks for pointing it out.


Interesting wording. "Problem with the web site" instead of "problem with the quiz". They haven't changed the quiz yet. I'll report back when they do. Anyway, it looks like we made a little bourbon history here.

kickert
03-24-2009, 11:11
Well, Knob Creek's customer service department finally got back to me on this issue. They said:

Thanks for the return email. I spoke with Bernie on Friday and we looked over the quiz and noticed that there was an error on the web site. It's currently in the process of being fixed. Thanks for pointing it out.


Interesting wording. "Problem with the web site" instead of "problem with the quiz". They haven't changed the quiz yet. I'll report back when they do. Anyway, it looks like we made a little bourbon history here.

You first quote says "an error ON the website." That is true - they are perpetuating an error by putting such a statement ON their website

funknik
03-24-2009, 11:15
Although I find this thread fascinating & both Chuck & Mike obviously know a ton about this, I think it's obvious that the answer is false. It doesn't ask whether or not a bourbon can be labeled as _______ Straight Bourbon Whiskey, but if any other state can put their name on the label. If the put the place of origin, then the name is on the label. It doesn't ask where on the label it has to appear:

T or F
Kentucky is the only state allowed to put its name on a bourbon label.

That being said, thanks for dropping a ton of knowledge and work on this, guys -- I'd like to see this one resolved and the myth proved or busted!

sku
03-24-2009, 11:18
Well, Knob Creek's customer service department finally got back to me on this issue. They said:

Thanks for the return email. I spoke with Bernie on Friday and we looked over the quiz and noticed that there was an error on the web site. It's currently in the process of being fixed. Thanks for pointing it out.


Interesting wording. "Problem with the web site" instead of "problem with the quiz". They haven't changed the quiz yet. I'll report back when they do. Anyway, it looks like we made a little bourbon history here.

Excellent. A victory for truth, justice and the American (not just Kentucky) Way. :grin:

cowdery
03-24-2009, 21:02
It's an ongoing process. I got Jim Rutledge to stop saying it the same way. The problem with Beam is that their institutional memory is not great. They might fix it now and in two years some new guy at some agency will pick up the wrong information (which is everywhere) and Beam will be saying it wrong all over again.

There is probably no more credible source for this sort of thing than this web site, because the people who really know the stuff are here and if anybody (even me, especially me) gets something wrong, it gets corrected immediately.

There are a lot of persistent falsehoods about American whiskey out there, from the myths about Elijah Craig, Evan Williams, John Fitzgerald and many others, to the belief that bourbon can only be made in Kentucky, to the one about Bourbon County being dry (it isn't) and Christian County being wet (they're both wet).

Blitz
04-08-2009, 20:14
Here's an update. I have been trading emails with Knob Creeks customer service dept. At one point I mentioned that I was correcting the 'Whiskey Professor' and they keep insisting that it was a glitch on the web page, and that the 'Whiskey Professor' was not wrong. In the meanwhile, I have been sending emails directly to the 'Whiskey Professors' asking for proof of their claim. Today I finally got a response.

This is what I sent:
Regarding question #2 in the label reading quiz, the following is stated in the answer section: "Though bourbon can be made anywhere in the U.S., Kentucky is the only state that can be mentioned on a bourbon label." I believe this statement is false. Will you please cite the law or regulation that is the basis of this statement?I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.


Here is the response I got today:

Thanks for the question, and sorry for being tardy with my response.

You are correct, the statement is false. The law states that Bourbon can be made anywhere in the United States, and there are no other requirements for labeling as to place of origin, other than to list where it is made. A perfect example is Virginia Gentleman, which is made in Virginia and is labeled as such, a Virginia Bourbon. The specific part of the law, written and kept up-to-date by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, is Title 27, Chapter 1, Subpart C, Section 5.22 of the Code of Federal Regulations, pages 48-53, of the Standards of Identity for Bourbon (whew!).

And thanks for catching that on the website. We had caught it too, but they hadn’t made the change. I believe the process is being accelerated!

Thanks again for your question and your passion! Meeting folks like you is one of the things I really enjoy about my job!

Cheers!

David

Blitz
05-18-2009, 11:37
Well, the issue is finally resolved now. They changed the quiz answer explanation on the website to:

Right. Bourbon can be made anywhere in the United States and any state can be mentioned on a bourbon label, not just Kentucky.

Also, they sent me a complimentary Knob Creek aluminum shaker for pointing out the error.

The end.

cowdery
05-18-2009, 19:12
Thank you for joining in the lonely fight to bring bourbonian wisdom to the masses.

Single-Barrel
06-04-2009, 10:40
I will say true. I think:skep:

Single-Barrel
06-04-2009, 10:42
Well I guess I was wrong. It happens sometimes maybe I should of read all the post first:rolleyes:

Josh
08-15-2009, 15:30
http://www.straightbourbon.com/faq.html#4

ggilbertva
08-15-2009, 16:18
A perfect example is Virginia Gentleman, which is made in Virginia and is labeled as such, a Virginia Bourbon.





This would not be a perfect example as VG is distilled in KY and aged in VA.

cowdery
08-16-2009, 08:39
Well, nothing's ever perfect.

sku
08-16-2009, 15:33
I thought it was distilled once at BT in Kentucky and a second time at Bowman in Virginia.

Josh
08-16-2009, 15:35
http://www.straightbourbon.com/faq.html#4


Well, nothing's ever perfect.

Including the SB.com FAQ's apparently.

cowdery
08-16-2009, 16:49
E.g., "Kentucky is the only state allowed to put its name on the bottle." Not true.