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Stones
07-23-2009, 16:04
In short - does bourbon/rye have the highest evaporation or highest share given to the angels of all spirits?

I guess it comes down to a lot of variables but i know that in low humidity conditions the loss to evaporation is primarily water and in higher humidities, more alcohol than water will evaporate.

So would spirits warehoused in colder climates age longer, have less lost and be of higher alcohol content? :skep:

Waiahi
07-23-2009, 18:17
In short - does bourbon/rye have the highest evaporation or highest share given to the angels of all spirits?

I guess it comes down to a lot of variables but i know that in low humidity conditions the loss to evaporation is primarily water and in higher humidities, more alcohol than water will evaporate.

So would spirits warehoused in colder climates age longer, have less lost and be of higher alcohol content? :skep:

From what I gathered from my SMS Distillery tours in Scotland 2 years ago, this is correct. This is why the low lying Islay Whiskeys are typically aged at 10 year, while Dalwhinnie, the highest (coldest and dryest) distillery in Scotland would age their standard offering for 15. The Angel's Share was far less up in the Highlands versus the sea level distilleries/warehouses like those of Talisker and Laphroaig.

Bourbon Geek
07-24-2009, 15:38
It depends on a lot of things ... but principally temperature and humidity. Higher temps and higher humidity both mean more goodies for the angels. In places like the US Virgin Islands ... home to a lot of rum ... the high heat takes the lead. Of all aged spirits I have been associated with, aged rum probably has the highest angel's share.

cowdery
07-24-2009, 20:14
The other factor, obviously, is time. Scotch routinely aged for twelve or more years loses more than bourbon aged for five or six.

MJL
07-25-2009, 06:22
Speaking of Angels Share, has anyone else felt just a little light headed when in rikhouses? I am assuming that is all that "angels share" in the air. Is the airborne alcohol content inhaled into the lungs resulting in a slight buzz or am I just excited every time I am in those places?

ggilbertva
07-25-2009, 06:30
Speaking of Angels Share, has anyone else felt just a little light headed when in rikhouses? I am assuming that is all that "angels share" in the air. Is the airborne alcohol content inhaled into the lungs resulting in a slight buzz or am I just excited every time I am in those places?

I've never felt a buzz but then again, I'm not spending hours in the warehouse. I do enjoy the aroma as I walk through.

Stones
07-26-2009, 18:24
It depends on a lot of things ... but principally temperature and humidity. Higher temps and higher humidity both mean more goodies for the angels. In places like the US Virgin Islands ... home to a lot of rum ... the high heat takes the lead. Of all aged spirits I have been associated with, aged rum probably has the highest angel's share.

Interesting stuff, reminds me of Pirates of the Caribbean when Johnny Depp finds that long lost stash of rum on an island.


The other factor, obviously, is time. Scotch routinely aged for twelve or more years loses more than bourbon aged for five or six.

So obviously if Bourbon and S****h were aged for the same amount of time in their respective locations then there would be far less bourbon upon opening its cask as opposed to the S****h.

jburlowski
07-27-2009, 14:28
Does the use of used barrels (for Scotch) have an impact? Are used (and re-used) barrels more porous to evaporation?

Bourbon Geek
07-27-2009, 14:49
Generally speaking, barrels do not get more or less porous with age. Scotch barrels tend to give off less angel's share for a number of reasons:

1. They are subjected to much smaller di-urnal temperature swings (hottest day in summer to clodest day in winter) than bourbon.

2. The Scotch warehouses tend to be non-ventilated, low slung, masonary buildings that tend to keep the humidity high ... much higher than bourbon.

3. Some people refer to the total spirit loss as angel's share ... really there are 2 parts to the loss ... that which evaporates thru the wood and that which soaks into the wood. As such, the users of new wood (bourbon) loose an extra 5% right off the top for soakage ... while the Scotch guys and their used barrels don't see this loss.

Jono
07-27-2009, 15:07
I noted a buzz starting standing in the BT bottling room..the hand bottling of Blanton's gave off alot as the chap sits there and fills the bottles via a hose..the vapors were very strong...it would be interesting to measure BAC of the employees.

Stones
07-27-2009, 15:50
Generally speaking, barrels do not get more or less porous with age. Scotch barrels tend to give off less angel's share for a number of reasons:

1. They are subjected to much smaller di-urnal temperature swings (hottest day in summer to clodest day in winter) than bourbon.

2. The Scotch warehouses tend to be non-ventilated, low slung, masonary buildings that tend to keep the humidity high ... much higher than bourbon.

3. Some people refer to the total spirit loss as angel's share ... really there are 2 parts to the loss ... that which evaporates thru the wood and that which soaks into the wood. As such, the users of new wood (bourbon) loose an extra 5% right off the top for soakage ... while the Scotch guys and their used barrels don't see this loss.

First-rate info there Bourbon Geek, thank you!
Just another query, a little off topic - what did s****h makers use before used bourbon barrels became common use? Did they just use new barrels initially? if this was the case then the flavour profile of early s****h would have been markedly different... :skep:

Bourbon Geek
07-28-2009, 06:36
Not completely sure ... they could have used port or sherry barrels (and some still do) ... they could even have just re-used their own barrels ... given the Scotch penchant for thrift, I doubt there's much chance they used new barrels for very long...

cowdery
07-28-2009, 12:14
We don't think about it so much now, but wooden barrels used to be used for everthing. They were the universal shipping container. Routine aging of spirits is a relatively new phenomenon (lets say less than 200 years old), but in order to sell your liquor to anyone beyond your immediate neighbors, you needed something to ship it in and that was barrels. Everybody used barrels and everybody made barrels, assuming they had access to suitable lumber. Barrels that previously held beer or wine, for example, would have been good for distillers to reuse.

jburlowski
07-28-2009, 14:48
Barrels that previously held beer or wine, for example, would have been good for distillers to reuse.

Pickles... not so much.:lol:

fishnbowljoe
07-28-2009, 15:00
Pickles... not so much.:lol:

Is somebody getting pickled? :skep: Joe

Stones
07-28-2009, 17:10
We don't think about it so much now, but wooden barrels used to be used for everthing. They were the universal shipping container. Routine aging of spirits is a relatively new phenomenon (lets say less than 200 years old), but in order to sell your liquor to anyone beyond your immediate neighbors, you needed something to ship it in and that was barrels. Everybody used barrels and everybody made barrels, assuming they had access to suitable lumber. Barrels that previously held beer or wine, for example, would have been good for distillers to reuse.

Interesting.... ironic how it has reverted back too with some beer brewers using old bourbon casks to flavour their beer - The Lost Abbey and Kentucky Ale are a couple of many who do.



... given the Scotch penchant for thrift, I doubt there's much chance they used new barrels for very long...

:lol::lol::lol:

mwanning
07-30-2009, 20:50
We don't think about it so much now, but wooden barrels used to be used for everthing. They were the universal shipping container. Routine aging of spirits is a relatively new phenomenon (lets say less than 200 years old), but in order to sell your liquor to anyone beyond your immediate neighbors, you needed something to ship it in and that was barrels. Everybody used barrels and everybody made barrels, assuming they had access to suitable lumber. Barrels that previously held beer or wine, for example, would have been good for distillers to reuse.

Visit Old Williamsburg and go to the copperage exhibit. The shipping barrels out of the colonies was worth almost as much as the contents. England has long ago cut down most of its forest. "Fine European Veneer" furniture was because they had no trees, so they took scrap wood to make the things and then veneer to cover it up. Today this veneer is more valuable than colonial furniture because of the "craftmanship" (In Europe wood was expensive, people were cheap. In the new World wood was cheap, people were expensive.) Colonial furniture legs split over a long time since they are made from a single piece of wood. European furniture does not since the legs were made from scrap glued together which become like todays plywood.

Tobacco so changed the wood inside that these barrels were recycled for the wood, but most other was used again for shipping - but many still disappeared because of the wood value.

I suspect all you could get for whiskey was French Oak and maybe then only recycled during the many wars. This may explain new oak bourbon vs used oak Scotch better than anything.

Mike

Jono
11-29-2009, 22:04
Denying the Angels share....

http://www.whisky-pages.com/stories/news-08-2008.htm

August 2008

"Diageo......Apparently the world's largest distiller has been carrying out secret tests over a period of five years, monitoring casks encased in clingwrap compared to those left uncovered. The results have been remarkable, with savings of up to 50 litres of spirit per cask projected over a ten year period. If 20,000 casks were treated in this manner it would produce annual savings of 1 million per annum. There are clearly questions to be answered regarding the chemical effects of this practice on maturation, which has long been thought to require casks to 'breathe' in order to achieve optimum results."

Hmmmm....I wonder if the experiment led to increased use or if the product was determined to be of less quality as a result.

ILLfarmboy
11-29-2009, 22:31
Reading this reminds me of how the chips I take in my lunch start to taste like plastic if I don't eat them and they get left in those zip lock sandwich bags for more than a couple days. My wife thinks I'm nuts.......I always tell her.....here, you eat 'em....otherwise, I'm throwing them out.

nor02lei
11-30-2009, 02:49
In short - does bourbon/rye have the highest evaporation or highest share given to the angels of all spirits?



This is what I call high evaporation!

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12943&page=2&highlight=amrut

Leif

Bourbon Geek
11-30-2009, 08:26
Denying the Angels share....

http://www.whisky-pages.com/stories/news-08-2008.htm

August 2008

"Diageo......Apparently the world's largest distiller has been carrying out secret tests over a period of five years, monitoring casks encased in clingwrap compared to those left uncovered. The results have been remarkable, with savings of up to 50 litres of spirit per cask projected over a ten year period. If 20,000 casks were treated in this manner it would produce annual savings of 1 million per annum. There are clearly questions to be answered regarding the chemical effects of this practice on maturation, which has long been thought to require casks to 'breathe' in order to achieve optimum results."

Hmmmm....I wonder if the experiment led to increased use or if the product was determined to be of less quality as a result.

This isn't the first time that someone has tried to cover the barrels with a substance to reduce the angel's share. I can remember experiments from 20 to 30 years ago where everything from cling wrap to liquid teflon was used to coat the exterior fo the barrels. The idea, if I remember correctly, was to allow some air migration but to cut down the vapor/liquid migration ... that's why semi-porous materials were chosen.

From strictly a chemical engineering perspective, the angel's share can, in fact, be limited or eliminated in this maner.... resulting in substantially more product for sale. The problem is that the angel's share mechanism actually contributes to the taste profile of the product. If the liquid does not move freely in and through the wood, the wood chemical extraction process will not be complete ... and the product will have less wood character ... not to mention less esters as well. I'm pretty sure that is what was concluded from the tests back then ... and that's why no one is currently using this type of process.

Jono
11-30-2009, 09:19
That is what I thought....but the bean counters sometimes rule the company!

Stones
11-30-2009, 14:53
This is what I call high evaporation!

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12943&page=2&highlight=amrut

Leif


[About half of the contents is left in the barrel after 5 years.]
WHOA!!! They must have some acute temps! :bigeyes: