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Phantos
08-13-2009, 22:13
what else out there besides WT does the deep crocodile char in their oak?
Bulleit maybe?
I understand the new Garrison Bros. Texas bourbon will be char #4.

HighTower
08-14-2009, 02:31
Bulleit is made by Four Roses. Not sure what char they use.

jburlowski
08-14-2009, 11:20
FWIW, at a recent tasting, Craig Beam said HH is doing some experiments with very high chars.

OscarV
08-14-2009, 15:21
Bulleit is made by Four Roses. Not sure what char they use.

Now Four Roses denies that they supply whiskey to the producers of Bulleit.

HighTower
08-14-2009, 15:45
Now Four Roses denies that they supply whiskey to the producers of Bulleit.

Does that mean Bulleit are now getting bourbon from another source.....or FR just don't want people to know it's their juice as they have no control of what Bulleit do to it after it leaves them (ie. cut it with a non pure water source in the UK and send it down here to Australia)?:smiley_acbt:

Scott

Josh
08-14-2009, 15:46
Now Four Roses denies that they supply whiskey to the producers of Bulleit.

So they're denying it now? Who else makes anything with such a high rye mashbill? I have a hard time believing they could be buying from WT.

OscarV
08-14-2009, 17:38
Does that mean Bulleit are now getting bourbon from another source.....or FR just don't want people to know it's their juice as they have no control of what Bulleit do to it after it leaves them (ie. cut it with a non pure water source in the UK and send it down here to Australia)?:smiley_acbt:

Scott


So they're denying it now? Who else makes anything with such a high rye mashbill? I have a hard time believing they could be buying from WT.

Check out the thread I have linked below.
Also be sure to click on the link that Cowdery has as "here" in his original post.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10464&highlight=four+roses+does+to+bulleit

cowdery
08-14-2009, 18:35
Just today, Mark Brown at BT was saying they decided to use the #4 char after doing some experiments where they went much further. Most everybody uses a #3 or #4. It doesn't make a lot of difference. I think it's Maker's that specifies 3 1/2.

Phantos
08-14-2009, 19:56
Just today, Mark Brown at BT was saying they decided to use the #4 char after doing some experiments where they went much further. Most everybody uses a #3 or #4. It doesn't make a lot of difference. I think it's Maker's that specifies 3 1/2.
interesting.
I thought WT was one of the only producers that used #4, therefore the WT taste...
but I am just learning.

Bourbon Geek
08-15-2009, 07:18
Just today, Mark Brown at BT was saying they decided to use the #4 char after doing some experiments where they went much further. Most everybody uses a #3 or #4. It doesn't make a lot of difference. I think it's Maker's that specifies 3 1/2.

After substantial testing which culminated a few years back, Maker's abandoned the traditional char numbering system altogether ... they now stipulate the number of seconds that the barrel is charred for instead. I'm pretty sure they use a 40 second char now.

Bourbon Geek
08-15-2009, 07:31
The char level makes more difference than you might think. I did some study on ester formation with respect to char levels some years ago... surprisingly, you can alter the level of ester formation by 20% or more just by changing the char time by a mere 10 seconds at a critical point.

I believe the reasoning goes something like this ... When you burn the hemicellulose fraction of the white oak, one of the decomposition products is vinegar molecules ... if these are extracted into the whiskey during maturation, they react with the various alcohols present to form esters. However, if you char for too long, the vinegar evaporates into the atmosphere, and is no longer available for later extraction.

The esters are more important to the organoleptic properties of bourbon than you might expect. For instance, the scents of apple, strawberry, pear, pineapple, raspberry, cherry, lemon, grape and banana are all attributable to various ester concentrations.

OscarV
08-17-2009, 16:43
After substantial testing which culminated a few years back, Maker's abandoned the traditional char numbering system altogether ... they now stipulate the number of seconds that the barrel is charred for instead. I'm pretty sure they use a 40 second char now.

OK then, that brings us to this question.
How many seconds is char #3 and how many is char #4?

Bourbon Geek
08-17-2009, 20:50
OK then, that brings us to this question.
How many seconds is char #3 and how many is char #4?

Good question. The traditional char levels are determined rather subjectively. Essentially, char #1 is toasted but not burnt ... char #2 is burned, but still smooth ... char #3 is burnt until there is a uniform looking "allegator hide" or checked appearance ... and #4 is burnt until the cracks in the "allegator hide" open up to expose unburnt wood ...

My experience is that #3 can be burnt anywhere from 35 to 55 seconds ... depending on who is making the subjective determination, at which cooperage it's being made, and various other factors.

Phantos
08-17-2009, 21:38
I mean a deep croc char has to effect flavor.
just like a fried burger vs a grilled burger.

so char #4 ( or a deep/high char) bourbons:
WT
Bulleit
???

Bourbon Geek
08-18-2009, 06:08
I mean a deep croc char has to effect flavor.
just like a fried burger vs a grilled burger.

so char #4 ( or a deep/high char) bourbons:
WT
Bulleit
???

All char levels effect flavor ... he jus effect different parts of the profile. For instance, a light #3 will favor more fruity essences while a heavy #4 will favor more color and carmel ... but there are a LOT more differences, too.... some subtle, some not so much. You can't infer goodness based strictly on char level, unless those are the elements you specifically prefer.