View Full Version : Whiskey Trails 17 Year Old Bourbon
Virus_Of_Life
02-14-2010, 18:12
I just noticed then when checking Binny's site for something. Anyone heard of know anything about this Whiskey Trails 17yo? Joe, can you give is any info, at least what is on the label maybe?
tommyboy38
02-14-2010, 18:38
IIRC, it's some overpriced HH whiskey.
Virus_Of_Life
02-14-2010, 19:05
IIRC, it's some overpriced HH whiskey.
So a bottler product I assume?
loose proton
02-15-2010, 09:33
IIRC, it's some overpriced HH whiskey.
HH produces some good stuff. If they set something apart for a different label, I'd be interested to try it. But if it's regular HH with a new label?
I doubt the brand is owned by HH, it sounds too corny to be an HH brand, Fighting Cock not withstanding.
Very well could have been distilled at HH, tho. Oh, if we only had a regularly posting member who works at Binny's. :searching: :stickpoke:
CorvallisCracker
02-15-2010, 15:06
I doubt the brand is owned by HH, it sounds too corny to be an HH brand, Fighting Cock not withstanding.
I dunno. At one time they had a brand called "Chillie Gone Crazy".
You've peaked my curiousity...
fishnbowljoe
02-16-2010, 14:06
I've seen this at Binny's, and at a couple of stores while out hunting last Saturday. Not sure where the juice is from, but I believe it is bottled by KBD. Joe
White Dog
05-06-2010, 09:49
I've seen this at Binny's, and at a couple of stores while out hunting last Saturday. Not sure where the juice is from, but I believe it is bottled by KBD. Joe
Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.
Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.
You sure about this? I've had some KBD products that had some very Bartonesque notes.
wadewood
05-06-2010, 11:04
Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.
What is true is that KBD has bottled a lot of HH whiskey under their brands or other for other brands they bottle. But your statement "anything bottled" is wrong.
White Dog
05-07-2010, 07:52
What is true is that KBD has bottled a lot of HH whiskey under their brands or other for other brands they bottle. But your statement "anything bottled" is wrong.
Then which other distillery are they sourcing from? All the actual Willet Distillery stocks are long gone. If my statement is "wrong," then the Kulsveens are lying, since they're my source for that information.
Then which other distillery are they sourcing from? All the actual Willet Distillery stocks are long gone. If my statement is "wrong," then the Kulsveens are lying, since they're my source for that information.
The possibilites are nearly endless. There are a lot of distilleries that sell bulk whiskey. Tom Moore is another obvious choice, being in Bardstown and being backed up by my tastebuds. There's also LDI in Lawrenceburg, IN, CDMK in Owensboro, KY, the list goes on and on. It seems likely that they buy from multiple sources. Heaven Hill is without a doubt one of those sources, maybe even the biggest one. But it's likely not the only one.
doubleblank
05-07-2010, 08:16
Whiskeymen don't lie..........all the time anyway. HH is the source for the vast majority of their bottlings. Particularly their widely distributed stuff. But they have bottled some limited release/single barrel bottlings from other distilleries. Many on this site have visited their rickhouses and tasted/selected barrels that were not HH.
Randy
White Dog
05-07-2010, 08:25
The most frustrating aspect of tasting and collecting Bourbon is the lack of transparency by the producers. What's also frustrating is the lack of factual evidence for statements on this board. While you all feel that there are other sources for KBD, no one has shown any hard evidence. If Wadewood and Doubleblank have definitive information as to other sources, then come forward and say so. "Many on this site..." Who are the people that have seen other barrels at KBD, and if so, what distilleries were the barrels from? I raise these points in the interest of knowing the actual authorship of what I'm buying and consuming.
DeanSheen
05-07-2010, 08:30
These guys are not steering you wrong. Search the site and you will find the 'evidence' you desire.
callmeox
05-07-2010, 08:34
I believe that there's an agreement (either expressed or implied) that when purchasing a barrel from KBD to be bottled under their Willett private label, you cannot say in public what the source of the whiskey was. I am aware of at least one instance when a barrel purchase was in jeopardy due to breaching confidentiality.
The net/net is that KBD gets bulk whiskey from suppliers who will tell you to your face that they don't play in the bulk market. Yes, it is hush hush, but that how they want it to be.
Expecting a public declaration of sources here is asking a bit much if only to prove a point to an anonymous poster on an internet message board. The people here know what they know and I respect their knowledge.
doubleblank
05-07-2010, 08:34
I have been in the KBD rickhouse and seen barrels from just about every major distiller there. What I don't know is where all those barrels went. I do know of where some of them went. So there really is no answer to your Q about what's in each and every bottle that KBD does. And unfortunately, that's the way they want it.
Randy
White Dog
05-07-2010, 08:45
I don't feel that the people on the site are trying to steer me wrong. My biggest frustration is with the bottlers themselves. After tasting and collecting wine for years, I started to get bit by the Whiskey bug. The more I delved into it, the more Bourbon production appears full of deceit. No one will state their actual mashbill with percentages, no one will tell me what char # is being used... It's all so much B.S..
Fine wine and spirits should be enjoyed within a certain context. An honest narrative helps to inform my enjoyment. If I'm going to enjoy a product, I want to now who made the damn thing. And since I can't get that from most, I'll stick to Austin Nichols, Four Roses and Scotch. At least Austin Nichols and Four Roses declare that they're the actual friggin' distilleries.
callmeox
05-07-2010, 08:50
In a nutshell, that's the rub with non-distiller producers and a lack of transparency.
They don't want to piss off their suppliers and have to play by their rules.
White Dog
05-07-2010, 09:23
In a nutshell, that's the rub with non-distiller producers and a lack of transparency.
They don't want to piss off their suppliers and have to play by their rules.
The distiller producers are also full of s--t. "Produced and Bottled by Evan Williams Distillery" or "Produced and Bottled by Elijah Craig Distillery" are loads of manure. There is no actual Evan Williams Distillery, it all comes from HH. They also list Bardstown as the city of origin, when they're now making it in Louisville. It may be bottled in Bardstown, but so what? Same goes with loads of others. Why consumers don't demand the truth astounds me. It also astounds me that the TTB allows such labeling.
Wow. That's a lot of anger for a commodity that's so pleasing to the senses.
Are you so sure about the provenance of any bourbon distillery, though? Austin Nichols didn't even have a distillery until the '70s, and brought in its juice from several unnamed sources just like KBD does now. In 1997 Jim Murray wrote about their latest vatting (of the standard Wild Turkey, presumably) being 4,000 barrels of Ancient Age with 20,000 of their own juice. Did Austin Nichols completely cease buying it in since then? Those who know aren't saying.
I think of the Kentucky good ol' boys as mischievous fellows who delight in pulling one over on outsiders while they go about running their businesses.
At least with straight bourbon we know what's in it - bourbon and water: no color, no sherry or port that just happened to be sloshing in the bottom of a used barrel, no undisclosed fermented fruit. Canadian Whiskies are allowed even to have additives that aren't even distilled that they need not disclose, as discussed in another thread.
To paraphrase that great communicator Charlie Papazian
"Relax. Don't Worry. Have a bourbon."
And welcome to the forum.
Roger
ErichPryde
05-07-2010, 18:57
Heh. now I know why the 1997 Old #8 was so terrible! thanks for that. :cool:
I will say, whitedog has a strong point. One thing I've always hated and loved about bourbon hunting is the lack of concise labeling. It makes things slightly mysterious when you are dusty hunting and trying to determine who distilled the ancient bottle of Weller you're holding, but it makes things frustrating and even disappointing when you can't find any similarity, bottle to bottle, of something like Elijah craig.
Wow. That's a lot of anger for a commodity that's so pleasing to the senses.
Are you so sure about the provenance of any bourbon distillery, though? Austin Nichols didn't even have a distillery until the '70s, and brought in its juice from several unnamed sources just like KBD does now. In 1997 Jim Murray wrote about their latest vatting (of the standard Wild Turkey, presumably) being 4,000 barrels of Ancient Age with 20,000 of their own juice. Did Austin Nichols completely cease buying it in since then? Those who know aren't saying.
I think of the Kentucky good ol' boys as mischievous fellows who delight in pulling one over on outsiders while they go about running their businesses.
At least with straight bourbon we know what's in it - bourbon and water: no color, no sherry or port that just happened to be sloshing in the bottom of a used barrel, no undisclosed fermented fruit. Canadian Whiskies are allowed even to have additives that aren't even distilled that they need not disclose, as discussed in another thread.
To paraphrase that great communicator Charlie Papazian
"Relax. Don't Worry. Have a bourbon."
And welcome to the forum.
Roger
The rule is: nobody sells bulk whiskey except when they do.
They all do it when they they have excess. Most will sell you white dog.
At this time, only Buffalo Trace actively denies doing it. Barton did but apparently no longer does, since BT took over.
Brown-Forman sells white dog to other producers, such as Heaven Hill and Diageo, and probably would sell white dog to anyone if the deal was right.
Though Beam won't confirm it, there's evidence they do the same thing.
Heaven Hill has a long history of contract distilling, contract distilling with aging, sale of bulk aged whiskey, private label bottling, just about anything you can imagine. Brand is the bigger part of their business but bulk is significant.
Ever since the sale, Four Roses has had a long-term production agreement with Diageo. Prettty much anybody who has excess capacity has to look at bulk sales.
Seagram's didn't generally sell the whiskey it made in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, but Angostura has since it took over. Angostura bought the Medley plant in Owensboro to service the worldwide demand for bourbon, but corporate problems have kept that project on the drawing board.
Since they have warehouses I assume KBD buys some white dog in barrels and ages it themselves. You can assume all or virtually all of that comes from Heaven Hill. They probably get most of the aged whiskey they buy from Heaven Hill too. But when opportunity knocks, they answer, so any absolute statement about Heaven Hill as KBD's source is wrong, even though if you had to bet on the source of any given product, Heaven Hill would be your best bet.
fishnbowljoe
05-07-2010, 21:10
Whitedog, I'm going to add my two cents here, partly as a moderator, and partly as a semi-knowledgeable member.
First: If the Kulsveens are your source of information, why are you asking questions about where they get their juice from? If you don't trust the information you're getting from them, what makes you think you'll get any better answers here?
Second: Who are you and where are you from? You have posted nothing in the new member thread, and your profile is basically blank.
Third: As a new member, you have joined our site and started off by seemingly questioning the knowlege and integrity of a couple of very knowledgable and respected members. To quote a line from a movie, "You have no idea what you're dealing with."
What gives? As a new member, I tried to get a feel for things before I said anything, or asked any questions about things I didn't understand in the crazy world of bourbon. Believe me when I say that I was set straight on more than one occasion. You have joined this site, and seem to have come in here with a bit of a chip on your shoulder or like you have something to prove. Not a very good first impression IMHO.
We have members of this site from every walk of life. Doctors, lawyers, white collar, blue collar, students, retirees, teachers, etc... We have members who work in the business. People who work for large liquor stores/chains, people who work at distilleries, owners of distilleries/brands, master distillers, writers and historians of bourbon, and so on... Just my opinion here, but if I were you, I'd be a bit more condescending with my questions and seeming accusations/observations.
I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intent. Believe me, I could have been much worse. There are some members who could have given you a much harder time. If you are a sincere person, here is some advice. Fill out your profile with some more information. Let us get to know you a little bit, and please get to know us too. Be open minded. Even if you ask questions, remember, you may not always like the answers. Things are not always what they appear to be in the bourbon world. To be very honest, I really can't tell you why that is. Sometimes you just have to accept that, that's just the way it is.
Good Luck. Joe
Whiskeymen don't lie..........all the time anyway. HH is the source for the vast majority of their bottlings. Particularly their widely distributed stuff. But they have bottled some limited release/single barrel bottlings from other distilleries. Many on this site have visited their rickhouses and tasted/selected barrels that were not HH.
Randy
Lost Pollito
05-07-2010, 22:08
Thanks to Joe, and Chuck. I'd say the chip on the shoulder has stopped me from responding...until now. Fill out that profile and settle in. Couldn't b a better place in the world to learn. Welcome to the board. There are a ton of contractual deals that don't allow full disclosure, but once you know the calling cards, provenance becomes second nature.
p_elliott
05-08-2010, 01:24
Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked
ErichPryde
05-08-2010, 01:28
Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked
hmmm. but your engine block specifically stated that it was made by mitsubishi, right? :cool: that's the difference.
White Dog
05-08-2010, 05:26
Wow.
Well, first off, Fishbowljoe, please read the whole thread. It wasn't that I didn't originally trust the info from the Kulsveens(Although I no longer trust it), it was that when other posters said that the info was wrong, they provided no evidence to the contrary. I asked that if they had other info, then please come forward with reasons to the contrary. I would simply like to know who actually distills what I'm putting into my body. (You may inhale the fumes, P_Elliot, but you don't drink your car, whether it's a Mitsubishi or a Chrysler.)
Secondly, who did I attack? When 2 members said my info was wrong, they didn't provide anything to back that up. If my information is wrong, that's fine and I'd like to know, but please provide some evidence.
Also, I'm well aware as to who some of the members are. I have the upmost respect for Mr. Cowdery, for instance. He's one of the few voices in Bourbon to call for transparency in whiskey labeling, which is what I've been asking for in this thread. (When he took on a certain midwest Rye producer for playing fast and loose with labeling, he had an instant fan in me.) It's funny, I complain about entities like Fortune Brands and Brown-Forman not telling us the truth on their labels, and I'm the bad guy??
Back to Fishbowljoe, please re-read the thread. I feel that I personally attacked no one. I simply asked for posters back up their claims. As for your comment, "You have no idea what you're dealing with." Yikes, who are you, the secret service? It's a website forum. Take it easy.
Look, if you guys don't like "straight" talk on "Straight Bourbon," then fine. I'll look elsewhere for people who want to know where their food and drink comes from. Sorry for rustling your feathers.
Whitedog, I'm going to add my two cents here, partly as a moderator, and partly as a semi-knowledgeable member.
First: If the Kulsveens are your source of information, why are you asking questions about where they get their juice from? If you don't trust the information you're getting from them, what makes you think you'll get any better answers here?
Second: Who are you and where are you from? You have posted nothing in the new member thread, and your profile is basically blank.
Third: As a new member, you have joined our site and started off by seemingly questioning the knowlege and integrity of a couple of very knowledgable and respected members. To quote a line from a movie, "You have no idea what you're dealing with."
What gives? As a new member, I tried to get a feel for things before I said anything, or asked any questions about things I didn't understand in the crazy world of bourbon. Believe me when I say that I was set straight on more than one occasion. You have joined this site, and seem to have come in here with a bit of a chip on your shoulder or like you have something to prove. Not a very good first impression IMHO.
We have members of this site from every walk of life. Doctors, lawyers, white collar, blue collar, students, retirees, teachers, etc... We have members who work in the business. People who work for large liquor stores/chains, people who work at distilleries, owners of distilleries/brands, master distillers, writers and historians of bourbon, and so on... Just my opinion here, but if I were you, I'd be a bit more condescending with my questions and seeming accusations/observations.
I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intent. Believe me, I could have been much worse. There are some members who could have given you a much harder time. If you are a sincere person, here is some advice. Fill out your profile with some more information. Let us get to know you a little bit, and please get to know us too. Be open minded. Even if you ask questions, remember, you may not always like the answers. Things are not always what they appear to be in the bourbon world. To be very honest, I really can't tell you why that is. Sometimes you just have to accept that, that's just the way it is.
Good Luck. Joe
fishnbowljoe
05-08-2010, 07:21
I will clarify a couple of my statements whitedog. I didn't say you attacked anyone. I said you called in to question the knowledge and integrity of a couple of members. When I said "You have no idea what you're dealing with.", it was not a threat. I meant that we have members who know a lot about KBD and have a good relationship with Drew and/or Evan. We have members who have sampled more than a few barrels at KBD and have picked out their own barrels for bottling. FWIW, we even have a member who works there. Now maybe you understand the situation a little better, and why a couple of us responded the way we did. You started out by jumping in with both feet. Most folks try and get a feel for the site before they post something that could considered (right or wrong) as controversial.
Maybe you should post an intro in the New Members thread. A little more info in your profile wouldn't hurt either. For all we know, maybe you work for Beam. :lol: That's a joke. The lack of transparency or complete truth about some bourbons is frustrating and fascinating at the same time. That, along with other mysteries and lore are some of the things that drew me to boubon in the first place. Oh, it tastes pretty darn good too!. :grin: The sad thing is, is that there are many questions that we will probably never know the answers to. Like Roger said, maybe the good ol' boys get a kick out of putting one over on outsiders. Cheers! Joe
birdman1099
06-16-2010, 19:24
Can we get back on topic?????:grin:
Has anyone had this bottling. I heard it was a private bottling from KBD. But they elected to put it in the Noahs Mill bottle with this label instead of the Willett Label. (wanted to be different).
It is a cask strength, non-chill filtered 17 yr old...... I'm intrigued.:skep:
Now, who has tried this?????? Joe?????
DeanSheen
06-16-2010, 19:58
Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked
Yeah, I had three LeBaron's. Great cars.
-end jack
Lost Pollito
06-16-2010, 21:33
Can we get back on topic?????:grin:
Has anyone had this bottling. I heard it was a private bottling from KBD. But they elected to put it in the Noahs Mill bottle with this label instead of the Willett Label. (wanted to be different).
It is a cask strength, non-chill filtered 17 yr old...... I'm intrigued.:skep:
Now, who has tried this?????? Joe?????
Yep. I've tried it, and thought it was quite nice. Lots of cherry, eucalyptus, and the right amount of oak to balance it out. Kind of a delicious sleeper on the shelves.:grin:
Yep. I've tried it, and thought it was quite nice. Lots of cherry, eucalyptus, and the right amount of oak to balance it out. Kind of a delicious sleeper on the shelves.:grin:
Is this only available at Binny's? I haven't seen it anywhere in KY.
birdman1099
06-17-2010, 05:24
I found mine in central Ill.
I believe it was selected and bottled by a distributor in the Chicago Area. So I'd assume Chicago area got all of them.
Lost Pollito
06-17-2010, 06:27
I found mine in central Ill.
I believe it was selected and bottled by a distributor in the Chicago Area. So I'd assume Chicago area got all of them.
You are correct Sir. They also have a nice bottle of Knockando, and a great young Laphroaig. All at cask strength.
p_elliott
06-17-2010, 09:06
Welcome to the grown up world of business, bourbon is a commodity like any other commodity it's bought, sold and traded. Deals are not always for public disclosure. If you think this is unique I had 2 Chrysler cars that were made by Mitzubitzi so what is the difference. I would heed Fishnbowljoe advice. We are normally a very welcoming group unless we are attacked
Mine were a Conquest Tecnica and a Conquest TSI
birdman1099
07-03-2010, 11:13
I cracked mine open today. It need a splash of water to loosen it up. Your right on with the cherry...... and the spice.... whoa.....:bigeyes: This is really good.
What is it going for up in Chicago? I found mine for $80. I'd drink it all day at $60-65....:grin:
birdman1099
07-03-2010, 11:24
I know that this stuff is likely HH, but I am not entirely convinced. To me, it drinks a lot like a 4 roses....now I do not know if 4 roses would sell some barrels or not.... (as Chuck says... no one sells bulk whiskey except when they do.):grin:
Joe, I know you've had this... what do you think????
Heaven Hill has rickhouses in many locations around Nelson county (beyond as well?).
Given that and the fact that Heaven Hill probably has half of the world's supply of 8+ year old bourbon (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=64416#post64416) (at least, they did in 2004 and we have no reason to think it's dramatically different now), wouldn't it be more likely that there are many distinct profiles to be found, and that the strongly HH-identifiable are put into the HH labels?
It wouldn't surprise me if the Whiskey Trails has a character more like one expects from Four Roses and is a Heaven Hill product.
As an aside, if I had the chance to job shadow a distillery worker to gain more insight into how whiskey is made, it would be the warehouseman not the distiller I would choose first.
Roger
I know that this stuff is likely HH, but I am not entirely convinced. To me, it drinks a lot like a 4 roses....now I do not know if 4 roses would sell some barrels or not.... (as Chuck says... no one sells bulk whiskey except when they do.):grin:
Joe, I know you've had this... what do you think????
Given that and the fact that Heaven Hill probably has half of the world's supply of 8+ year old bourbon (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=64416#post64416) (at least, they did in 2004 and we have no reason to think it's dramatically different now), wouldn't it be more likely that there are many distinct profiles to be found, and that the strongly HH-identifiable are put into the HH labels?
Roger
Another scenario might be that Diageo had an excess of Four Roses-made bourbon, and sold it off to whoever.
I doubt we'll ever know, really. But it is fun to try to puzzle it out!
Whilst price doesn't influence my buying I'd still like to try it before I pay the 80 bucks.
It does sound interesting.
birdman1099
07-06-2010, 16:03
I jumped back into this bottle..... Interesting to say the least. I'm having a hard time pinning this one down.
I did notice the proof. 112.3 That sound like a 4 roses barrel proof to me. and didn't 4 roses just come out with a 17 yr cask strength version this year as well:skep: :skep: :skep: :skep: :skep:
Oh well... who cares.... I like it !!!!:grin:
drew_kulsveen
08-23-2010, 10:05
Anything bottled by KBD comes from Heaven Hill. They rarely admit that, but it's true. What's nice about KBD's Vintage 17yr Bourbon is that it comes from HH's original Bardstown distillery, which burned down in 1996, rather than the Bernheim site, which is where all HH is now made.
First, you know absolutely nothing about what we do and who we source from; it really doesn't matter since it doesn't concern you or anyone else on this board. How can you make a statement like that and expect anyone to believe you since you have no facts to back it up. If you are going to make a statement be sure it is true and accurate or I will make you look like a true novice that you are.
CorvallisCracker
08-23-2010, 10:37
First, you know absolutely nothing about what we do and who we source from; it really doesn't matter since it doesn't concern you or anyone else on this board.
Some of us would like to know where our bourbon is made, and it isn't your place to tell us that we shouldn't.
I don't buy KBD products for a number of reasons, and you just validated one of them. Thank you.
Some of us would like to know where our bourbon is made, and it isn't your place to tell us that we shouldn't.
Well put. This level of hostility from a producer towards a boatload of positive attention is puzzling.
I don't buy KBD products for a number of reasons, and you just validated one of them. Thank you.
I do buy KBD products when I can. Maybe it's time I stopped.
I would simply like to know who actually distills what I'm putting into my body.
Such a noble cause... So, are you saying that there is a distilled product out there that is harmful to your body, you want to avoid consuming it and the labels are “hiding the facts”? And if so, whose is it?
Otherwise...what does it matter?
Better bring the “facts” when you answer this one...you must know something that I don’t know?
But why stop at distilled products...do you consider everything you eat and drink and apply.
Do you smoke cigars?
Are there perfumes and dyes in your laundry detergent???
Do you eat "organic" produce?
Anyway, read the labels, if they don't give you confidence in what you are buying, don't buy it. In this "information age" it is not hard to delve into facts. Also, if you spend enough time on this forum you can find what you are looking for…And, if it aint in print here, there is someone who can fill you in…it’s just what they tell you won’t be able to be posted on the web. Please don’t confuse secrecy for privacy. Like Chuck said…no one sells it until they do. That should give you a starting point on how things work.
Privacy in the transaction is key to the business deal…like mentioned already, bourbon industry is a big business and like in any business, they are all strange bedfellows. The numbers of products on the market that are “Shadow” produced are countless and bourbon isn’t the only one…I just bought a refrigerator lately…need any other examples?...didn’t think so…
At the end of the day, we all have the power to "vote" with our dollars...if suppliers/packagers of any product are "listening" to the sound of falling sales and marketing discovers that sales would increase with better contents description information, fuller disclosure and truth on labels, better labels will come. (Is fuller a word? LOL) Oh yea...one other thing...whiskey labels trade back and forth in the drink companies like kids at school with baseball cards...And then we have corporations inside of corporations inside of...well you know...on and on...
But, at the end of the day, I think Bourbon sales are increasing…I don’t think they can hear anyone talking about labels right now…I think they are listening to the sound in the cash register as they learn how much any one bottle of “special edition bourbon” can extract from your wallet…need any examples of that?...didn’t think so.
Calm down…drink lightly, there is alcohol in bourbon, moderate amounts can cause poor health and too much of it can kill you…I’ll stay tuned for your list of other things in bourbon that are more harmful than the alcohol can be…
dog
BTW, I drink whiskey if it tastes good, not because it comes from one superior source or if the label is correct and truthful...show me your best dram and I'll show you a version from that same distillery/paper label corporation bottler/distiller that would make a vulture vomit...no telling what the labels on each bottle might say.
Tom Troland
08-23-2010, 15:25
Mr. Kulsveen is quite right that few people know the origins of the bourbons his firm sells. However, his intemperate, even childish, reply to a board member is shocking. As is his contention that the provenence of his products should be of no interest to board members. Many of us enjoy knowing where our whiskies come from. That's part of the fun. Can Mr. Kulsveen not imagine this interest?
And as for knowing the truth, I do wish KBD would be more truthful in their labeling and website information. Are we really to believe that the Willett Pot Still Reserve is from a pot still (neglecting the doubler that all distillers use)? And what about those hills where Noah's Mill is handmade? I don't know of a legal distillery in Kentucky that is very far up in the hills. Even the name KBD suggests something that is not true, that actual distillation goes on at their site. (Perhaps someday it will.)
Much of KBD publicity coyly suggests (without actually saying so) that the whiskies they sell are of their own creation. Why not just be honest and say, "We source our bourbons and ryes from the finest distillers in Kentucky"? KBD would be acting in the tradition of respected wine negociants in France. And it would be the truth.
One other thing White dog,
Wanting to get to know you better...
Have you purchased your own barrel of whiskey yet?
If you have...how many?
What was the choice of barrels from a row of ten or so, previously selected by someone else? or was it soley your choice from any barrel in the inventory.
Did ya get it bottled the way you wanted it ? ie; unchillfiltered and cask strength? Or, did they water it down and srtip the fat out of it to meet a label requirement?
Did any of them get good reviews posted from your peers or industry leaders?
I'd sure like to taste some...
Got any?
Dougdog...the leader of the dog pack...HEEEEEEEEEEE...HEEEEEEEEEE!!!
OOOPS!...forgot the invitation...please come join me and the other SB'ers on my front porch at this upcoming Kentucky Bourbon Festival...I have a little get-together on Friday afternoon, you can read more about it in the Bourbon Social section of the forum...hope you can join us!
I have more than just KBD whiskey to offer...as not to offend...
In the meantime, learn how to piss with the big dogs here and quit peeing with the puppies...C ya in September...
Don't I sound so big and bad just sittin' behind this screen and typing what ever I want?
Heee heee...LOL
BTW...do you drink Beam White label?
OK, Drew did step in it a little with his post, but you have to remember that the distilleries he buys from forbid him to revel it.
So maybe he's getting a little testy because if they cut him off there goes the business.
The most frustrating aspect of tasting and collecting Bourbon is the lack of transparency by the producers. What's also frustrating is the lack of factual evidence for statements on this board. While you all feel that there are other sources for KBD, no one has shown any hard evidence. If Wadewood and Doubleblank have definitive information as to other sources, then come forward and say so. "Many on this site..." Who are the people that have seen other barrels at KBD, and if so, what distilleries were the barrels from? I raise these points in the interest of knowing the actual authorship of what I'm buying and consuming.
Can't post that information on the web...
dog
OK, Drew did step in it a little with his post, but you have to remember that the distilleries he buys from forbid him to revel it.
So maybe he's getting a little testy because if they cut him off there goes the business.
Do they really? It's no secret that Luxco gets their stuff from Heaven Hill. They even have a picture of the old HH distillery on the some of their bottles.
It's not a secret where Julian Van Winkle gets his stuff either.
While the folks at 4R don't like to admit it, it's common knowledge that Bulliet is made there, and probably some other Diageo brands as well.
The Jefferson's people even made the source of their release a selling point.
As for me, I don't give a vole's derriere where it comes from as long as it's good, but I also don't like being told to sit down and shut up by a producer, whether they distilled it or not.
When I compare Julian Van Winkle's posts here with Drew Kulsveen's, it's like night and day.
OK, Drew did step in it a little with his post, but you have to remember that the distilleries he buys from forbid him to revel it.
So maybe he's getting a little testy because if they cut him off there goes the business.
Good point Oscar,
Who would want to be responsible for destroying a budding business for the sake of a post that declares who distilled the whiskey in any particular bottle or in one's glass.
Isn't half the fun here, becoming good enough at tasting to taste a shadowed product in a bottle and recognizing the origin based on the merrits, flavors and tastes?
Bettye Jo is putting on a competition to let everyone demonstrate something just like that! Only costs 20 bucks...
Hope white dog can make it to fall festival...he could be the next bourbon taster of the year!
Anyway, since when is it a new revelation that bulk whiskey winds up in the hands of others than the distillery that made it...I enjoy guessing on my own...having a bit of mystery to it doesn't bother me at all.
dog
Yeah Josh, you right you Big Ole Daddy you.
But Drew has threaten to cut cut off some of us SB.com'ers and some others with the private bottlings, I'd like to keep this option open.
Maybe Drew is guilty of PWD, I know I've done it.:rolleyes:
Besides I can only hate on one distiller/bottler at a time.
Know what I mean BT?
CorvallisCracker
08-23-2010, 16:20
But Drew has threaten to cut cut off some of us SB.com'ers and some others with the private bottlings, I'd like to keep this option open.
Really? He has? Wow, he's really big on the threatening thing.
Oscar, don't you know that giving in to bullying just leads to more bullying?
Yeah Josh, you right you Big Ole Daddy you.
But Drew has threaten to cut cut off some of us SB.com'ers and some others with the private bottlings, I'd like to keep this option open.
Maybe Drew is guilty of PWD, I know I've done it.:rolleyes:
Besides I can only hate on one distiller/bottler at a time.
Know what I mean BT?
Good one Oscar...
Ya know...Josh could call Max and just ask him himself...be interesting to see what he would be able to post on this subject...but then he'd have to call every other distiller that doesn't sell on the bulk market too...
And last but not least...is there room for "two people" to hate BT at one time...I'd like to be considered for the second position...Know what I mean?
dp
Really? He has? Wow, he's really big on the threatening thing.
Oscar, don't you know that giving in to bullying just leads to more bullying?
Hey...I want to be a bully...Drew and White dog can't be the only two!!!!
dog
BourbonJoe
08-23-2010, 16:54
A word of advice to ALL Rectifiers and Distillers: Don't bite the hand that feeds you. The average guy does not buy specialty bottles of bourbon, enthusiasts do. Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:
Joe :usflag:
A word of advice to ALL Rectifiers and Distillers: Don't bite the hand that feeds you. The average guy does not buy specialty bottles of bourbon, enthusiasts do. Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:
Joe :usflag:
Joe...Ya know I luv ya man! but one of us is missing the point...and while I'd agree with what you have stated, I find it hard to see the relevance as it pertains to White Dog.
I've read his posts and would agree with fishinbowljoe that he seems to have a chip on his shoulder...that said, I don't believe that he has approached gathering information as a customer...more like an adversary with some kind of moral pinpoint to stand on...
Like Drew, if my financial livelihood depended on industry connections, relationships and repeat business, I'd find it hard to sacrifice those to help one guy "feel" better about what he was drinking for the reasons he listed.
Similarly, if I were a distillery that doesn't sell whisky on the bulk market, yet needing to sell whisky on the bulk market and at the same time trying to be discreet about it, I wouldn't want a tier customer or one of their customers making trouble for me as it pertains to my industry posture/position...
Or, is it am I still missing something?????
dog
...am I still missing something?????
dog
Well, it looks to me like there's a lot of indignation today, 3 1/2 months after the brash fellow got a bit of learnin' and slowly backed away, perhaps to learn more about that which he spoke.
Good reading, though. :grin:
Roger
PS - I miss seeing the Dog!
callmeox
08-23-2010, 19:27
First, you know absolutely nothing about what we do and who we source from; it really doesn't matter since it doesn't concern you or anyone else on this board. How can you make a statement like that and expect anyone to believe you since you have no facts to back it up. If you are going to make a statement be sure it is true and accurate or I will make you look like a true novice that you are.
OK, Drew did step in it a little with his post, but you have to remember that the distilleries he buys from forbid him to revel it.
So maybe he's getting a little testy because if they cut him off there goes the business.
A little?
As a non-distiller producer of fine American spirits, there is much public conjecture about the source of the products that are bottled under our name. While we appreciate the relationship that we have formed with the great community of bourbon enthusiasts here and around the world, we also value the business relationships that permit us to bring these unique products to market. Rest assured that if we were in a position to share these sources with the public we would do so, but contractual obligations prevent such a disclosure.
Our goal has always been that all products that bear our name will have been mashed, fermented, distilled, and aged by us in our facility. Until that goal becomes a reality, we hope you continue to enjoy the great line of spirits that we bring to you.
We thank you for your enthusiasm.
DeanSheen
08-23-2010, 20:39
^ golf clap.
I'm PWD a Party source 6 year old silver willett. It's pretty darn good, like this thread.
BourbonJoe
08-24-2010, 05:08
Joe...Ya know I luv ya man! but one of us is missing the point...and while I'd agree with what you have stated, I find it hard to see the relevance as it pertains to White Dog.
I've read his posts and would agree with fishinbowljoe that he seems to have a chip on his shoulder...that said, I don't believe that he has approached gathering information as a customer...more like an adversary with some kind of moral pinpoint to stand on...
Like Drew, if my financial livelihood depended on industry connections, relationships and repeat business, I'd find it hard to sacrifice those to help one guy "feel" better about what he was drinking for the reasons he listed.
Similarly, if I were a distillery that doesn't sell whisky on the bulk market, yet needing to sell whisky on the bulk market and at the same time trying to be discreet about it, I wouldn't want a tier customer or one of their customers making trouble for me as it pertains to my industry posture/position...
Or, is it am I still missing something?????
dog
I just don't like the hostility......from either side.
Joe :usflag:
p_elliott
08-24-2010, 07:12
A little?
As a non-distiller producer of fine American spirits, there is much public conjecture about the source of the products that are bottled under our name. While we appreciate the relationship that we have formed with the great community of bourbon enthusiasts here and around the world, we also value the business relationships that permit us to bring these unique products to market. Rest assured that if we were in a position to share these sources with the public we would do so, but contractual obligations prevent such a disclosure.
Our goal has always been that all products that bear our name will have been mashed, fermented, distilled, and aged by us in our facility. Until that goal becomes a reality, we hope you continue to enjoy the great line of spirits that we bring to you.
We thank you for your enthusiasm.
Maybe Drew should hire you for his public relations department he seems to need one. You don't slap the entire web site because your mad at one person.
I just don't like the hostility......from either side.
Joe :usflag:
He started it!
Just kidding!!!!!!
But on a more serious note, I have only been on this forum for three or four years now. So what do I know about anything. Others have been on much longer, with way more knowledge and class than I could ever achieve in a lifetime of trying...
Still, I have attempted to contribute my little part with my past posts of pictures and text of bottles and labels from my hunting days. IMHO, The forum at that time was missing "evidence" of old bottles...I believe that my pictures and text opened the door for others who wanted to collect and gain insight to who put what whiskey in which bottle at specific times while the labels moved through the industry as the industry evolved. While posting pictures of finds and discovering questions along the way, others here on the site would graciously fill me in on details that the labels didn't show. I believe that bottle hunting around the nation and the world increased during this period and those finding the delicious, rare and dusty bottles were rewarded for the trouble it takes to find them. I believe that pictures made their finds easier. That, combined with tasting notes and Study Group posts are what I claim as my biggest contributions to this wonderful site.
That being said, there have been those times when I have inserted my foot fully in my mouth, made a total ass out of myself, only to realize that extensive damage control was needed to stay accepted in the community. At times that damage control included an apology on the open forum as well as PM's. The lesson learned was that it is too easy to sit behind a computer screen and type something that you wouldn't say to someone's face if they were standing right in front of you...another lesson was that you best have your facts straight. I believe that with the exception of possibly one person, everyone has accepted my apologies over the years. I believe that they understand that if one makes a lot of posts, sooner or later something said offends someone or is found to be untrue. Maybe 'cause they "been there" themselves.
Side bar: I don't spend much time on the forum these days as other activities in my life are more dominant at this time...but, there will come a time when I will be able to "hang out" here more. Yet, when I get wind that there is a significant amount of attention paid to KBD, then my ears perk up a bit and I check in to "see what's goin' on".
It's amusingly curious to me how much attention KBD gets when you look at how many others there are out there in the marketplace that are bottlers but non-distillers. Industry wise, the biggest difference I see between them and KBD is that KBD will likely be distilling before any of them are able to do so. Consumer wise, don't they have a larger selection of products available on the market than any other bottler/non-distiller? That being said, I'll raise another question...Why or how is it that KBD has gained such a big target painted on their back? I don't want to sit here and have to list the other attributes that I would suggest puts KBD apart from others...to do that, I'd need to have another glass of the Kool-Aid. (Remember the Kool-Aid...That was a good one Chuck!)
I still believe that this is the best bourbon site in the world!
C ya'll in a few weeks
dp
BTW Chuck, are you going to be in town for fall KBF and if so please set some time asside to join us on the front porch again this year...would love to be able to run a few things past you that are on my mind...
No hostility...but if anyone hasn't read the Lipmans' account of their visit to KBD, you should: http://www.ellenjaye.com/kybourbondist.htm
bonneamie
08-24-2010, 11:22
Doug, how's that basement coming along? Sorry we won't be there this fall to see it.
Doug, how's that basement coming along? Sorry we won't be there this fall to see it.
Smooth move Amy, divert attention from all of this is a good idea, if that's what you were doing.:grin:
But seriously, the fine folks here at SB.com won't let this divide us,... for long.:cool:
fishnbowljoe
08-24-2010, 13:25
"And now we return to our regularly scheduled programming." :deadhorse: Joe
Lost Pollito
08-24-2010, 17:10
FWIW, I understand Drews animosity. White Dog was swingin. But, any animosity directed to us bourbon dorks, is a lil to much. Most of us can taste where the distillate has come from. It'd be nice to confirm our taste thoughts, but I understand that some things just are. Drew... you guy's got that beautiful still runnin yet? I for one am rootin for ya. I'm sure there are plenty others as well. Cheers.:toast:
spun_cookie
08-24-2010, 18:50
Most of us can taste where the distillate has come from.
I think I can claim Knowledge that they come from Kenucky....
It'd be nice to confirm our taste thoughts...
I am sure that I can claim the tastes of bourbon and rye... yup, I am sure those are the profiles
:rolleyes: :D
callmeox
08-24-2010, 18:56
Definitely disappointed that I didn't get more job offers after my marketing gig last night.
:grin:
White Dog
08-24-2010, 20:33
Man, did this thread come roarin' back. I thought I was angry, but after reading Drew and Dougdog, I come off as pretty sedate.
After reading Drew's comment, I will no longer believe what one of Drew's relatives told me about their source being Heaven Hill. If Drew wants to shame me for believing one of his relatives, so be it. I retract my statement on KBD's sources.
I still stand by my points on transparency. That I do not retract. It's obvious that many on this site do not care who the actual distiller is. So be it, but many of us do care.
I do find it odd that simply wanting to know who distilled what pisses so many people off.
spun_cookie
08-24-2010, 20:43
I still stand by my points on transparency. That I do not retract. It's obvious that many on this site do not care who the actual distiller is. So be it, but many of us do care.
You should stick with BIBs Perro Blanco. The label will tell you all you want to know. Otherwise, anything could be in any bottle that is not a BIB. Distiller's choice....
I find a bourbon I like, but a buch of it and enjoy them for a long time. Yr to yr bourbons vary greatly... so I almost quit caring about it. I gamble on the Staggs and WLWs every yr, but others I go with a buy, try, rebuy approach.
Drink well
drew_kulsveen
08-26-2010, 19:16
Anyone that knows me understands that I am forward and to the point. My intent wasn't to offend anyone but rather to set the record straight. Whitedog, if you really want to know what we do, call me, send me an email, visit and I'll be more than happy show you around (that goes for anyone else too).
If you've ever been to an event where we have been present, we have never misrepresented ourselves, we are not that stupid.
As for the WPSR, we have only expressed that it the bottle is replicated directly off the blueprints from our new pot still.
drew_kulsveen
08-26-2010, 19:45
Well, unless that relative works for us (ie, my sister, brother in law or father) I wouldn't believe them. If I knew who it was I would call them out. I can appreciate you criticism about transparency and agree with you. I will never break my word that I have given someone and that includes certain information I will not talk about. There are things that I would change in a heartbeat as most people would in their business, but I do not own it, I can only make suggestions.
BourbonJoe
08-27-2010, 05:14
Well, unless that relative works for us (ie, my sister, brother in law or father) I wouldn't believe them. If I knew who it was I would call them out. I can appreciate you criticism about transparency and agree with you. I will never break my word that I have given someone and that includes certain information I will not talk about. There are things that I would change in a heartbeat as most people would in their business, but I do not own it, I can only make suggestions.
I can live with that.
Joe :usflag:
Tom Troland
08-28-2010, 15:23
In his August 26 post, Mr. Kulsveen, in effect, denies that the labeling of Willett Pot Still Reserve is deceptive, stating that his firm has only said, “The bottle is replicated directly off the blueprints from our new pot still.”
However, no such disclaimer appears on the bottle, nor on the hang tag attached to the bottle, nor on the KBD website. So it is not clear how any consumer could know that the “Pot Still Reserve” is a column still product. Obviously, the intent of the labeling is to imply very strongly that the bourbon was distilled in a pot still. Obviously, the labeling of this product is deliberately deceptive.
Mr. Kulsveen states in his same post, “We have never misrepresented ourselves, we are not that stupid.” But, yes, they have misrepresented themselves. As plain as day. However, if the product sells on the basis of this misrepresentation, then they are not stupid.
Isn't it time to stop bashing Drew Kulsveen and KBD? I don't believe that there has been any attempt to mislead anyone. There have been many excellent bottles of Willett Bourbon and Rye that I and many Gazebo attendees had the good fortune to taste.
Isn't it time to stop bashing Drew Kulsveen and KBD? I don't believe that there has been any attempt to mislead anyone. There have been many excellent bottles of Willett Bourbon and Rye that I and many Gazebo attendees had the good fortune to taste.
I think people should stop bashing KBD when Drew apologizes for bashing SB.com.
fishnbowljoe
08-28-2010, 20:34
Man, after all this talk about Whisky Trails 17 yr old bourbon, I just might have to get myself a bottle and try it out. :yum: Sounds like pretty interesting stuff. :rolleyes: Joe
Lost Pollito
08-28-2010, 21:30
Man, after all this talk about Whisky Trails 17 yr old bourbon, I just might have to get myself a bottle and try it out. :yum: Sounds like pretty interesting stuff. :rolleyes: Joe
It's really delicious juice. Honestly. And...thanks to Drew on this thread. :grin:
In his August 26 post, Mr. Kulsveen, in effect, denies that the labeling of Willett Pot Still Reserve is deceptive, stating that his firm has only said, “The bottle is replicated directly off the blueprints from our new pot still.”
However, no such disclaimer appears on the bottle, nor on the hang tag attached to the bottle, nor on the KBD website. So it is not clear how any consumer could know that the “Pot Still Reserve” is a column still product. Obviously, the intent of the labeling is to imply very strongly that the bourbon was distilled in a pot still. Obviously, the labeling of this product is deliberately deceptive.
Mr. Kulsveen states in his same post, “We have never misrepresented ourselves, we are not that stupid.” But, yes, they have misrepresented themselves. As plain as day. However, if the product sells on the basis of this misrepresentation, then they are not stupid.
OK Tom OK, you are invited to the "Porch Party" too!
Maybe you and Whitedog can carpool?
dp
(bring a copy of this post with you, should make for some interesting reading and subsequent conversation amongst you, myself and the others here that afternoon/evening)
If a label read:
"Pot Still Shaped Bottle Reserve"
Would that clear things up in people’s minds?
dp
Amusingly concerned about things "lost in translation"...
Amusingly concerned about things "lost in translation"...
What am I thinking...I'm more amused with the things that are ADDED in translation...
Side bar: Kinda reminds me of the 60's when song writers "laid it between the lines" to get around government censorship. Being brought up in a very strict religious environment, it's where I learned about sex and drugs and banjos. HEEEEEE HEEEE LOL!
I do find it odd that simply wanting to know who distilled what pisses so many people off.
We finally get to the problem...
It's not that simple !!!!!!!!!
(BTW whitey, I'm not pissed at you or anyone else, I'm havin' fun with this. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, I'm sippin' Kool-Aid or one of any a number of the finest whiskies in the world and watchin' the "blue smoke from a Havana cigar" float down the front porch, with either my friend(s), wife or well enough, just myself...reminiscing the smiles and laughs gained from watching the parade in this thread march on by...) (I see me in that parade too...love to laugh at my self in hindsight)
p_elliott
08-31-2010, 07:39
We finally get to the problem...
It's not that simple !!!!!!!!!
(BTW whitey, I'm not pissed at you or anyone else, I'm havin' fun with this. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, I'm sippin' Kool-Aid or one of any a number of the finest whiskies in the world and watchin' the "blue smoke from a Havana cigar" float down the front porch, with either my friend(s), wife or well enough, just myself...reminiscing the smiles and laughs gained from watching the parade in this thread march on by...) (I see me in that parade too...love to laugh at my self in hindsight)
Let's not be putting the Kook-aid and the bourbon in the same glass. Scotch and Kool-aid is ok though. :slappin:
LikeItWasSodaPop
05-16-2011, 21:04
This particular specimen is on sale at a certain Binny's now (not sure if sales are chain-wide or not), down from 79ish to 59ish. That tips the price point enough that I'm gonna take a chance on it.
As a noob, it's funny to find this thread again (I initially found it when searching to learn about KBD). It's got it all ... hyperbole, intrigue, know-it-alls, know-nothings posing as know-it-alls, classy behavior, childish behavior, witty name-calling, lame name-calling, obviously INTOXICATED posts, and smart tasting notes (though just precious few of those!), etc., etc., etc.
Anyway, given Joe's recommendation (basically the only person to discuss the actual bourbon in this long-ass thread), I'm gonna grab some tomorrow. I will yell at people and generally act ornery while I drink it.
Oh, wait, that would be how I am most of the time anyway.
As a noob, it's funny to find this thread again (I initially found it when searching to learn about KBD). It's got it all ... hyperbole, intrigue, know-it-alls, know-nothings posing as know-it-alls, classy behavior, childish behavior, witty name-calling, lame name-calling, obviously INTOXICATED posts, and smart tasting notes (though just precious few of those!), etc., etc., etc.
Not a bad description of that, I mean this, website as a whole. You may also like these threads (I do): http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=71949#post71949
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11932
Anyway, given Joe's recommendation (basically the only person to discuss the actual bourbon in this long-ass thread), I'm gonna grab some tomorrow. I will yell at people and generally act ornery while I drink it.
Oh, wait, that would be how I am most of the time anyway.
Never a bad idea!
trumpstylz
05-21-2011, 16:11
So I already knew that KBD "sourced" their bourbon from other distilleries, but does that mean they buy a) white dog, which they proceed to put into their own barrels b) bourbon that's just entered the barrel at the source's distillery or c) barrels which have been aging at the source disillery's rickhouse for a while which KBD finds particularly valuable?
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