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sku
06-16-2010, 15:36
Cedar Ridge winery/distillery in Iowa announces that they will release a Bourbon (distilled in '08) on July 1.

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/96496319.html

IowaJeff
06-17-2010, 07:33
I've had their vodka, gin, lemoncello, rum, and apple brandy--all seem to me to be good alternatives to similar priced large brands (I'm not much of a drinker or judge of the above spirits). I'll be anxious to try a bourbon. I've always hoped for an Iowa bourbon with Iowa corn. 2-2.5 years is young, but I'm not willing to dismiss it based on age alone. Smaller barrels combined with Iowa weather, who knows, I'll give it a shot.

If I can get a bottle I'll post my thoughts.

IowaJeff
07-02-2010, 07:00
I picked up a bottle of the Iowa Bourbon yesterday. It was 29.99, I split it with someone else. It's a very light yellow color. Tastes nothing like bourbon. I don't mean that it tastes like a young bourbon, which it is. I mean it has none of the cornerstone flavors of bourbon. No vanilla, no oak, no rye spice, no caramel, etc. It tastes like corn whiskey, but a unique corn whiskey at least. Not much on the nose, just a touch of corn / honey sweetness. The taste is very light, another touch of sweetness. It says its 40%, but there is no alcohol harshness. I don't like describing things a 'smooth,' but this is smooth.

I will not be buying another bottle in the near future because I prefer stronger flavors than what the Iowa Bourbon provides. But, it is better than the white dogs I have tried and better than corn whiskies I have had (which I often find to have a corny/honey sweetness, as with the Iowa Bourbon, but accompanied by a harshness and an undefined 'funky' flavor). This is probably the mellowest spirit I have ever had.

Jono
07-02-2010, 08:21
The "Corona" of bourbons. Maybe they will set aside some product for decent aging.

sku
07-02-2010, 09:20
I picked up a bottle of the Iowa Bourbon yesterday. It was 29.99, I split it with someone else. It's a very light yellow color. Tastes nothing like bourbon. I don't mean that it tastes like a young bourbon, which it is. I mean it has none of the cornerstone flavors of bourbon. No vanilla, no oak, no rye spice, no caramel, etc. It tastes like corn whiskey, but a unique corn whiskey at least. Not much on the nose, just a touch of corn / honey sweetness. The taste is very light, another touch of sweetness. It says its 40%, but there is no alcohol harshness. I don't like describing things a 'smooth,' but this is smooth.

I will not be buying another bottle in the near future because I prefer stronger flavors than what the Iowa Bourbon provides. But, it is better than the white dogs I have tried and better than corn whiskies I have had (which I often find to have a corny/honey sweetness, as with the Iowa Bourbon, but accompanied by a harshness and an undefined 'funky' flavor). This is probably the mellowest spirit I have ever had.

Thanks for the great report. Sounds like yet another overly young and overly diluted craft whiskey.

p_elliott
12-20-2010, 08:00
I picked up a bottle of this on Saturday. I didn't think it came off as being as young as it is. It's does not taste like bourbon to me taste like an Irish blended whiskey. Not so much the pear flavor of the Jameson 12 and the Blackbush but the general flavor of them. It's drinkable but a bit much at the $32 I paid for it, I would have priced this more in the $15 range. But with all that said these guys could have done much worse with their first try at making bourbon, I prefer this over Stranahan's whiskey which I gave away. If I can I'll bring a bottle to the KBF for the gazebo for everyone to try.

MoeCizlak
12-20-2010, 19:53
I tried a glass of this last night and agree with what has been mentioned. If it had more of a rye taste to it I would've sworn I was drinking Templeton Rye, the bottle even looked identical. I probably wouldn't recommend this for avid Bourbon drinkers as there are no tell-tale Bourbon flavors present. If you know someone who wants to try drinking Bourbon straight, try this as there is literally no alcohol burn.

lrochau
12-20-2010, 20:43
I've got a bottle of Cedar Ridge as well but I haven't opened it yet. Been drinking a ORVW 107 a lot lately so I'm sure I would be bummed with Cedar. Will drink in time, I'll do my share to help out the Iowa distillers along the way.

ILLfarmboy
12-20-2010, 21:09
This must be what a liquor store manager/employee recently made mention of while I was asking him about unrelated stuff. I was picking up stuff for a Christmas party and was in a hurry.....probably should have payed more attention......

Anyhow, cudos to them for actualy distilling their own stuff. Too bad its only 80 proof

Maybe, just maybe, someday locally produced bourbons, ryes and malt whiskies will be more widly available, perhaps even as a side venture to an established brewpub.

As a side note, I ate recently at the Granite City brewpub in Davenport IA. I tried their Brother Benedict's Bock. I'm a non beer drinker but I got a wild hair up my ass and wanted to try beer again, something with significant malt flavor and very little hoppiness. Afterwords I checked out their website. They ship the sweet wort from a central location to each individual restaurant. Something about avoiding the laws that prohibit shipping alcohol across state lines or something. It seems like an established chain like that could make a malt whiskey like Stranahan's easier than someone could do the same starting from scratch. Much of the infrastructure is already there.

By the by, I like Stranahan's.

p_elliott
12-21-2010, 07:36
If I had known that you liked Stranahan's Brad I would have waxed a seal on that bottle and shipped it to you.

cowdery
12-22-2010, 14:21
How confident is anyone that this is real and not a Potemkin like Templeton?

squire
12-22-2010, 14:27
Perhaps one of our Iowa members could drop by for a tour and post their findings. I'd like to see the distilling process and aging barrels myself.

cowdery
12-22-2010, 14:34
At just two years old it might very well be real, but there are some other two-year-olds that aren't.

sku
12-22-2010, 14:48
How confident is anyone that this is real and not a Potemkin like Templeton?

You never know, but they are claiming to have distilled it. From their website:

Made from nearly 75% corn, Cedar Ridge Bourbon Whiskey is crafted in small batches in our European-engineered 80-gallon pot still for a high-quality, smooth, premium bourbon that is receiving rave reviews at tasting events across the Country and selling off the shelves.

callmeox
12-22-2010, 17:06
How confident is anyone that this is real and not a Potemkin like Templeton?

If they are like Templeton, the ruse runs deep as they are a winery who also sells a number of clear spirits.

The other home-spun lines give them more street cred.

cowdery
12-22-2010, 18:04
Just want to make sure my peeps are doing their due diligence.

lrochau
12-22-2010, 20:25
Here are a few links to Quad City Times articles on the three Iowa distilleries if your looking for some reading:

Cedar Ridge
http://qctimes.com/business/article_d0178894-0596-11e0-9605-001cc4c03286.html

Mississippi River Distillery (LeClaire, IA)
http://qctimes.com/business/article_b12a4d3c-0a59-11e0-a76a-001cc4c03286.html

Templeton
http://qctimes.com/business/article_3f44c9d6-05a4-11e0-8e01-001cc4c03286.html

White Dog
12-22-2010, 20:56
Here are a few links to Quad City Times articles on the three Iowa distilleries if your looking for some reading:

Cedar Ridge
http://qctimes.com/business/article_d0178894-0596-11e0-9605-001cc4c03286.html

Mississippi River Distillery (LeClaire, IA)
http://qctimes.com/business/article_b12a4d3c-0a59-11e0-a76a-001cc4c03286.html

Templeton
http://qctimes.com/business/article_3f44c9d6-05a4-11e0-8e01-001cc4c03286.html

Scott Bush states that they've been operating for 10 years, and that they were one of the first micos.

I wonder what Maytag, Rumpf, Robin, and McCarthy would say to that, since they all began 25 years ago.

He should have said, I was the first to put LDI Rye on the map! :lol: :lol:

kbrighton
01-24-2011, 15:24
Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I just joined the forum and thought I would respond to some questions/concerns.



Thanks for the great report. Sounds like yet another overly young and overly diluted craft whiskey.
Two part response:
One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%.
Part 2 - "overly diluted" meaning only 80 proof? Sure we bottle at 80. Reason here is simple economics. The US alcohol producers are taxed by the buzz they provide. A can of 5% abv beer costs the producer 5 cents tax. A 750ml bottle of wine is closer to 10 cents. Fed tax on a 750 of 80 proof is $2.14. Higher proof=higher taxes. In our market, which happens to be a control state, I don't think we could justify the higher tax. The state if Iowa takes control of our product before going to retailers, they mark it up 50%. Then the retailers mark it up another 25-30%. Because we are a young and small company we are using 15 and 30 gallon barrels to get this stuff on the market faster. Happens that small barrels are more expensive then their 53 gallon brothers. So we are putting up a big investment up front in order to get the cash flow sooner. Granted, we have also been filling the standard barrels for 3 years, so eventually we will phase out the small barrels and use the 53 gal only with a proper aging period. But until then, its coming out of the small guys.

Perhaps one of our Iowa members could drop by for a tour and post their findings. I'd like to see the distilling process and aging barrels myself.
Anytime. I am here at the distillery from 8-5 M-F. If any of the members here want a tour let me know a day ahead of time. I will show you everything from the pallets of grain, mash tun, fermenters, still, barrels, and bottling line.


Here are a few links to Quad City Times articles on the three Iowa distilleries if your looking for some reading:

Cedar Ridge
http://qctimes.com/business/article_d0178894-0596-11e0-9605-001cc4c03286.html

Mississippi River Distillery (LeClaire, IA)
http://qctimes.com/business/article_b12a4d3c-0a59-11e0-a76a-001cc4c03286.html

Templeton
http://qctimes.com/business/article_3f44c9d6-05a4-11e0-8e01-001cc4c03286.html


Scott Bush states that they've been operating for 10 years, and that they were one of the first micos.

I wonder what Maytag, Rumpf, Robin, and McCarthy would say to that, since they all began 25 years ago.

He should have said, I was the first to put LDI Rye on the map! :lol: :lol:

Templeton the company may have been in existance for 10 years, but they have only had a license to distill since 2005. Cedar Ridge was the first distillery in the state, 3 months ahead of Scott. They don't own a still, they don't have any mashing equipment. They have a room with barrels and a bottling line. A local liquor store here in Iowa put a big sign in front of their Templeton display reading "Indiana's finest Whiskey"
Also, if you click the first link above, you will see my smiling face in front of the still.

sku
01-24-2011, 15:43
Thanks for your post Kolin. We are always happy to have distillers comment on the site.

Just to be clear, the comment you quoted from me was a reaction to another poster's review. I've never tried your whiskey.

CaptainQ
01-24-2011, 16:29
Kolin, thanks for posting and welcome aboard!

"I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular." Damn straight!

kbrighton
01-24-2011, 18:21
Thanks for your post Kolin. We are always happy to have distillers comment on the site.

Just to be clear, the comment you quoted from me was a reaction to another poster's review. I've never tried your whiskey.

I know. No hard feelings here. Like I said, I don't mind if I get a few bad reviews here. I have been making whiskey for less than 2 years, ive got some tricks to learn to impress people like you. But your average drinker, ive got them lining up in stores, putting their names on a waiting list for my bourbon.

cowdery
01-24-2011, 18:28
My reaction to kbrighton's post? Worst producer-to-consumer communication ever. Well, there was that guy in Cincinnati who essentially posted "LEAVE ME ALONE" on his front door, but even he wised up.

Note to kbrighton and any other producers, regardless of size, who choose to respond to something posted here. Don't be so defensive. Instead, just introduce yourself nicely, tell your story, and correct factual errors if you feel that's necessary, but don't make some poster's commentary the template for your first post on the site.

For example, you come right out of the box calling us snobs. I know you sort of took it back by effectively saying you're a snob too, but snob, really? Do you think most people understand the word "snob" to mean something positive? Yet in your introduction to this community, it was one of the first words out of your mouth.

How would you react if somebody came into your home and started to talk to you that way?

Straight Bourbon is a diverse community but one thing we all have in common is a passionate interest in American-made whiskey. Making friends here cannot possibly be contrary to your business plan. It may be contrary to Scott Bush's business plan, because he doesn't want anyone to pay too much attention to what he's really about, but presumably you do. You're actually making something. The people here love that.

I'm calling you out because part of making a product you intend to sell to the public is learning how to talk to that public, and you have a lot to learn.

kbrighton
01-24-2011, 20:04
My reaction to kbrighton's post? Worst producer-to-consumer communication ever. Well, there was that guy in Cincinnati who essentially posted "LEAVE ME ALONE" on his front door, but even he wised up.

Note to kbrighton and any other producers, regardless of size, who choose to respond to something posted here. Don't be so defensive. Instead, just introduce yourself nicely, tell your story, and correct factual errors if you feel that's necessary, but don't make some poster's commentary the template for your first post on the site.

For example, you come right out of the box calling us snobs. I know you sort of took it back by effectively saying you're a snob too, but snob, really? Do you think most people understand the word "snob" to mean something positive? Yet in your introduction to this community, it was one of the first words out of your mouth.

How would you react if somebody came into your home and started to talk to you that way?

Straight Bourbon is a diverse community but one thing we all have in common is a passionate interest in American-made whiskey. Making friends here cannot possibly be contrary to your business plan. It may be contrary to Scott Bush's business plan, because he doesn't want anyone to pay too much attention to what he's really about, but presumably you do. You're actually making something. The people here love that.

I'm calling you out because part of making a product you intend to sell to the public is learning how to talk to that public, and you have a lot to learn.

I mean snob in the nicest way. It just means you like excellent whiskey, and won't give credit to a product that doesnt deserve it. It was by no means a slam to anyone here.

I did introduce myself, in the correct section. I see now that this "newb" section does not get much traffic, since I only got a few replies.

I am here to learn, and also to answer any specific questions regarding my specific product. I don't see this as much of a customer reach-out since you arent able to buy it unless you are in Iowa or Chicago. I invited anyone within driving distance to come visit my distillery, I think ive been pretty polite so far.

craigthom
01-24-2011, 20:15
My reaction to kbrighton's post? Worst producer-to-consumer communication ever. Well, there was that guy in Cincinnati who essentially posted "LEAVE ME ALONE" on his front door, but even he wised up.

I'm with you, Chuck. It struck me as very defensive, almost childishly so, especially since, if he had really read more of the forum, he would have realized that the comments in this thread have been, for the most part, positive. There are plenty of negative reviews around SB, but those weren't among them.

If you meant "snob" in a good way, then be assured when I call you a "defensive jerk" that I mean it in a good way, too.

cowdery
01-24-2011, 23:06
"Honest, Officer. I meant 'fascist pig' in the nicest way."

flintlock
01-25-2011, 06:41
I don't know a lot about it, but this thread seems to me endemic (sp?) of the so-called artisanal distilling industry. With a few exceptions (and I would put Corsair Artisan Distillery in the exception column) they seem to me nothing more than opportunistic profiteers. They have about as much vested interest in bourbon as they do in light sweet crude oil or toaster ovens or anything else that can be bought elsewhere and middle-manned into a profit, or made quick and rushed to market in a bottle designed to appeal to college students.

Give me a bottle of Jim Beam white label any day - we scoff at it but at least it's real quality bourbon made by people who know the stuff, and who were steeped in the trade.

But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...

craigthom
01-25-2011, 06:56
I don't agree with that. He's making his own whiskey, rather than bottling something he bought. He's selling it young, yes, but cash flow is necessary for any kind of business, and he's not charging $50 a bottle for it. We need to see more of this.

My problem is strictly with his customer relation skills. The other distilleries (especially Four Roses and Maker's Mark) understand how important word-of-mouth advertising is. This guy doesn't.

callmeox
01-25-2011, 06:59
I've said it before but I think it bears repeating. The micros have a big hill to climb because the macro boys put out some fine products.

One can only buy so many "interesting" bottles.

Josh
01-25-2011, 07:34
I've said it before but I think it bears repeating. The micros have a big hill to climb because the macro boys put out some fine products.

One can only buy so many "interesting" bottles.

It's even harder to climb that hill when you have a huge chip on your shoulder.

This idea that only ppl who live in Iowa or Chicago will be buying your product so it doesn't matter if you piss everyone else off is incredibly naive. Do a search on "Binny's" and see how many threads come up. Most of us here do a lot of traveling to buy whiskey. There are huge numbers of us within driving distance of Chicago. I make about 1 or 2 trips a year to Chicago just to buy whiskey.

Also this idea that we are snobs here is also pretty dumb. Sure there are some members that claim to drink nothing but BTACs, Stitzel-Weller from the 1960s and their own private bottlings, but most of us can and do appreciate a wide variety of American Whiskey from the bottom shelf up.

I don't know if it's the worst communication ever, but the difference between you, Mr. Brighton, telling us to F off and, say, Drew Kulsveen telling us the same thing, is that Drew and his father already have established brands and contacts in the enthusiast community and they put out a lot of good whiskey that people will buy no matter how he acts. You don't have any of those things.

Like other people said, you'd be better off making friends here than getting defensive. You're doing something we're all for. Why make life hard for yourself?

IowaJeff
01-25-2011, 07:44
"One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%."

It seems clear to me that he was not using snob as an attack, but was using it to point out that SB members are not a reflection of the average american whiskey drinker and are not necessarily the intended audience for the product.

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing. He's right, the opinions of the majority of this board on bourbon are vastly different than most american whiskey drinkers, who consider JD (and in Iowa, Templeton) the holy grail.

He then defended the proof with a well-reasoned analysis from a distiller's perspective and invited everyone for a tour.

Sure, we would all prefer to be called 'aficionados' rather than 'snobs' but I don't think offense was intended nor should it be taken.

p_elliott
01-25-2011, 08:20
"One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%."

It seems clear to me that he was not using snob as an attack, but was using it to point out that SB members are not a reflection of the average American whiskey drinker and are not necessarily the intended audience for the product.

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing. He's right, the opinions of the majority of this board on bourbon are vastly different than most american whiskey drinkers, who consider JD (and in Iowa, Templeton) the holy grail.

He then defended the proof with a well-reasoned analysis from a distiller's perspective and invited everyone for a tour.

Sure, we would all prefer to be called 'aficionados' rather than 'snobs' but I don't think offense was intended nor should it be taken.

Good post Jeff and I agree wholeheartedly. I think people are bending over backwards to find offence to his post. Why is it every time a micro distiller comes on here they are attacked but when one of the big boys come on here people line up and kiss their ass?

wadewood
01-25-2011, 08:29
"One persons opinion. After reading this forum, I take most of the members here to be "snobs" about their bourbon. This is not a problem, and am myself a snob of many of life's pleasures. I don't see this forum as a good indication of the average US bourbon drinker, rather this is the top 2% or so who are very particular. If our product does not appeal to sb membership, I won't loose sleep because I know we can sell it out every month to the other 98%."

It seems clear to me that he was not using snob as an attack, but was using it to point out that SB members are not a reflection of the average american whiskey drinker and are not necessarily the intended audience for the product.

I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing. He's right, the opinions of the majority of this board on bourbon are vastly different than most american whiskey drinkers, who consider JD (and in Iowa, Templeton) the holy grail.

He then defended the proof with a well-reasoned analysis from a distiller's perspective and invited everyone for a tour.

Sure, we would all prefer to be called 'aficionados' rather than 'snobs' but I don't think offense was intended nor should it be taken.

ditto. Look he is doing what we want craft distillers to do- mash, ferment and distill their own product. Yes, it is lower proof and younger than this crowd wants, but Kolin was pretty straight forward about the business reasons for doing so. If you want something different, go start your own craft distillery and start making/selling it yourself.

I, for one, like having those in the industry contribute to these boards. If all you want to do is bash away, no industry people will want to post anything.

craigthom
01-25-2011, 12:03
I wasn't offended by anything and I'm the one that posted the initial review of the product. He labeled us 'snobs' but followed by calling himself a snob. I don't take that as an attack or a defensive reaction, its just good natured ribbing.

"good natured ribbing" is something you do with people you know, not strangers.

Josh
01-25-2011, 12:15
I like it when industry people stop by, too. The ones that interact with us most sucessfully (like Julian VW and Tim McKenzie) are the ones who respond to questions and are able to take criticism from people who care a lot (maybe too much) about American whiskey without getting defensive. If people in this community think a product or the way someone does business stinks, that industry person is going to hear about it. I like that.

I don't think there's a double standard, either. I hear as much or more Beam, Brown-Forman or Buffalo Trace bashing as I do bashing of micros.

IowaJeff
01-25-2011, 13:22
There is a difference between defending your product and acting defensively by attacking your critics. This is the former. He responding to some criticisms of the product by telling us that the target market might not be members of a bourbon message board who incorporate liquor runs into all travel plans and can wax poetic about mash bills, bunkers, and intricate differences in annual releases of essentially the same whiskey. He responding to questions regarding proof by explaining why it is 80 proof.

I'm new here myself. Being able to interact with others who share my interest in bourbon as well as being able to interact with those who make, sell, and distribute bourbon is just plain great. I would hate to see people not post for fear of getting flamed.

Now, back to what this post should be about.

As I said before, I thought the Iowa Bourbon lacked the usual flavor profile of bourbon. pelliot's flavor comparison to Irish whiskey is apt, perhaps I would have liked it more if I had come to it from that angle instead of expecting bourbon flavors. I didn't hate, I finished the bottle happily. I have also recommended it to ardent Templeton followers who love how 'smooth' Templeton is. If you want something to go down smooth (and be made in Iowa), Iowa Bourbon is it. If you want flavors that rock your face off it is not.

I drank about 1/2 of the bottle in cocktails and found it made a light and refreshing manhattan and old-fashioned. I found the quality comparable to other microdistilleries, like Tuthilltown, and its priced better.

Inthewater
01-26-2011, 14:17
I agree with IowaJeff and P_Elliott. I found little to no offense and people seem to be blowing what was there way out of proportion.

I have not tried this yet, but I would be willing. Hey, at least it's actually made here.

:)

ILLfarmboy
01-26-2011, 14:49
A few thoughts and questions.

Why even post in this thread if the people he's going to reach are not part of his target demographic?

This would be the first micro I've heard of who's target demographic is the average Beam white drinker and not the enthusiast. It would be analogous to a micro-brewer putting out a light tasteless lager meant to compete with Bud Light. Don't micros survive by putting out a niche product and catering to that niche market? Is anyone else struck by this oddity or am I making more of this than there really is?

Josh
01-26-2011, 18:18
A few thoughts and questions.

Why even post in this thread if the people he's going to reach are not part of his target demographic?

This would be the first micro I've heard of who's target demographic is the average Beam white drinker and not the enthusiast. It would be analogous to a micro-brewer putting out a light tasteless lager meant to compete with Bud Light. Don't micros survive by putting out a niche product and catering to that niche market? Is anyone else struck by this oddity or am I making more of this than there really is?

I'm going to say something that may shock you, Brad...

Well put, and I completely agree.

cowdery
01-26-2011, 20:13
I'm going to say something that may shock you, Brad...

Well put, and I completely agree.

Equally as shocking, so do I. That's why I think this guy is setting himself up for a fall. At some point he's going to wish he'd been nicer to us.

IowaJeff
01-27-2011, 07:44
A few thoughts and questions.

Why even post in this thread if the people he's going to reach are not part of his target demographic?

This would be the first micro I've heard of who's target demographic is the average Beam white drinker and not the enthusiast. It would be analogous to a micro-brewer putting out a light tasteless lager meant to compete with Bud Light. Don't micros survive by putting out a niche product and catering to that niche market? Is anyone else struck by this oddity or am I making more of this than there really is?

1 - He answered some questions and criticisms of his product. Just because his target demographic, the demo that will make or break Iowa Bourbon, is not bourbon enthusiasts doesn't mean he can't have a dialogue with them. Opening up a dialogue with a demographic that will not immediately and noticeably affect Iowa Bourbon's bottom line should be applauded.

2 - Many, if not most, microdistillers target demographic is not enthusiasts. Given the opinions of this board and other enthusiast sites on most microdistillery products, if the target were enthusiasts they would all be out of business. Their target demographic is regional. That is their niche. Iowa Bourbon is not competing for the hearts of Van Winkle and Stagg drinkers. Its competing for Iowa spirits consumers who want a product produced in Iowa. Templeton has proved that this can be a profitable demographic. I'm sure with many micros the hope is that the brand will grow and they can market their original product more widely and perhaps develop other products. They are not planning on making their money off of SB members, however, at least initially.

The beer analogy fails. The differences between microbrewers and microdistillers has been well documented. Vastly different products and markets.

Josh
01-27-2011, 09:10
1 - He answered some questions and criticisms of his product. Just because his target demographic, the demo that will make or break Iowa Bourbon, is not bourbon enthusiasts doesn't mean he can't have a dialogue with them. Opening up a dialogue with a demographic that will not immediately and noticeably affect Iowa Bourbon's bottom line should be applauded.

2 - Many, if not most, microdistillers target demographic is not enthusiasts. Given the opinions of this board and other enthusiast sites on most microdistillery products, if the target were enthusiasts they would all be out of business.

Again, not correct at all. This idea that people here do nothing but hate on micros is :horseshit: . The most sucessful micros are ones that have made unusual products that the macros are not making. Corsair Gin & Red Absinthe, Old Portero Rye, Koval unaged spirits, Hudson Baby Bourbon, and Balcones Corn Whiskeys to name a few are all examples of this. Even the "micro bottlers" like Templeton, High West, and the W.H. Harrison people are bringing interesting products to the market even if they did not distill them themselves.


Their target demographic is regional. That is their niche. Iowa Bourbon is not competing for the hearts of Van Winkle and Stagg drinkers. Its competing for Iowa spirits consumers who want a product produced in Iowa. Templeton has proved that this can be a profitable demographic. I'm sure with many micros the hope is that the brand will grow and they can market their original product more widely and perhaps develop other products. They are not planning on making their money off of SB members, however, at least initially.

In other words, this distiller is hoping to cash in on consumers who simply want to buy something with "Iowa" on the label. Is that really a viable long-term plan? If the product is no good, then how long will it take for the word to get out?


The beer analogy fails. The differences between microbrewers and microdistillers has been well documented. Vastly different products and markets.

Please explain how.

Finally, IowaJeff, what is the nature of your relationship with this distiller? You seem to know a lot about their business.

Inthewater
01-27-2011, 09:35
Not 100% sure, but my guess is that his relationship with them is like mine and P_Elliott's.

He is from Iowa and so are they.

Being from Iowa, where the Templeton "phenomenon" is talked about daily by someone, (usually with no idea about what the real facts are) we are pretty excited for anyone to actually make a burbon / whiskey in the State from scratch. Micro-distillery or not.

I think the distiller came in a little defensive, and tried to make a joke or make light of somethings and some people got all bent out of shape.

Instead of hanging on every word he posted and trying to seeminly make something of nothing, let's just let by-gones be and have a drink?

I am way down for that.

Cheers.

p_elliott
01-27-2011, 09:59
Running people off this site seems to be a sport with some people on here.

IowaJeff
01-27-2011, 10:24
1 - I never said people on this board do nothing but hate on micros. I said if whiskey enthusiasts were the target market for micros they would fail. I don't think I'm out of line in saying that the majority opinion here (which I share) is that currently micro distilled American whiskey is, with a few exceptions, not as good as what the big boys produce.

2 - Of course micros make unusual products that macros don't. That's beside the point and I never said differently. That their product is different does not necessarily dictate the demographic. The maker of Iowa Bourbon told us what his demographic is and I'm saying that many other micros have similar demographics. I'm not sure what you're arguing. Because micros make unusual products that the big boys don't it logically follows that they depend on bourbon enthusiasts in order to succeed? I would venture to guess that almost everyone on this board would consistently buy a bottle of baby Saz, Ritt 101, etc. over Templeton and I don't think Templeton is shedding a tear over that. Why? Because their business plan likely does not depend on us. Their demographic is casual whiskey drinkers, JD drinkers, and people who take pride (however misplaced) in an Iowa product. Perhaps I was wrong to generalize the 'regional' niche to most micros, but it is definitely a niche for some, and appears to be a niche for Iowa Bourbon.

3 - In an argument anytime someone says "in other words" they are about to grossly misconstrue something. You're true blue. There is nothing wrong with wanting to buy products produced locally. Conversely, there is nothing wrong with making a product locally and using that as a marketing edge. I also never said the product was not good and resent your implication that I did.

4 - RE difference between beer and whiskey. Microbrewers can can make a more flavorful product than macros in a short amount of time. Budweiser does not have an advantage over a microbrewer in making a full, flavorful beer. Jim Beam has an advantage over microdistillers in making a flavorful whiskey, because a lot of the flavor is derived from aging. Beam has the means to age a whiskey for much longer than micros. Hence micros distinguishing themselves based on grain, where it was produced, novelty, etc. See also http://www.whatdoesjohnknow.com/2010/08/30/guest-blog-1-most-craft-whiskeys-suck/ Its apples and oranges.

5 - I hesitate to even respond to this garbage. My relationship is this: I've drank a bottle of Iowa Bourbon and posted my thoughts on SB. I'm from Iowa and see first-hand how Iowa Bourbon is marketed and who buys it. I've never been there, never met anyone affiliated with it. If I was affiliated with Iowa Bourbon would I really post a lackluster review of it online?

_______

Come on, a small distiller came on here and responded to a post about his product. He presumably put a lot of time and money in it and takes pride in it, which he should. Perhaps he was a bit defensive, but clearly meant no offense and attacked no one. I don't know why I stepped in as the defense. I guess I just hope that SB can rise above the classic internet tendency of an outsider making a post and getting flamed by 'insiders.'

IowaJeff
01-27-2011, 10:26
I also find this instance particularly ironic.

"You guys are snobs about bourbon, ha ha, I'm the same way about some things."

"SNOBS!! HOW DARE YOU SIR! How dare you enter our oak and leather trimmed lounge and call us snobs-this heinous affront nearly made me spill my vintage Van Winkle 15 on my tuxedo! Jeeves, please see this dreadful man out." [disclaimer - this is an attempt at humor, nothing more].

Josh
01-27-2011, 10:27
Nobody's trying to run anybody off or getting bent out of shape. If distillers big or small want a fawning, uncritical audience, then they should go elsewhere.

p_elliott
01-27-2011, 10:42
The criticism has been over the top Some times you guys don't know when the horse is dead. Stop beating it it.

ILLfarmboy
01-27-2011, 11:32
2 - Of course micros make unusual products that macros don't. That's beside the point and I never said differently. That their product is different does not necessarily dictate the demographic. The maker of Iowa Bourbon told us what his demographic is and I'm saying that many other micros have similar demographics. I'm not sure what you're arguing. Because micros make unusual products that the big boys don't it logically follows that they depend on bourbon enthusiasts in order to succeed? I would venture to guess that almost everyone on this board would consistently buy a bottle of baby Saz, Ritt 101, etc. over Templeton and I don't think Templeton is shedding a tear over that. Why? Because their business plan likely does not depend on us. Their demographic is casual whiskey drinkers, JD drinkers, and people who take pride (however misplaced) in an Iowa product. Perhaps I was wrong to generalize the 'regional' niche to most micros, but it is definitely a niche for some, and appears to be a niche for Iowa Bourbon.




You are asking me to swallow a lot here; product doesn't dictate demographic, and that people who care enough to want to buy locally produced goods generally will not be enthusiasts who will be better educated about those products. Posers? Is that his intended target?

ILLfarmboy
01-27-2011, 11:41
I"SNOBS!! HOW DARE YOU SIR! How dare you enter our oak and leather trimmed lounge and call us snobs-this heinous affront nearly made me spill my vintage Van Winkle 15 on my tuxedo! Jeeves, please see this dreadful man out." [disclaimer - this is an attempt at humor, nothing more].


A very poor attempt at humor.

Not all of us are from big cities and I for one am a man of modest means. I'm a redneck and proud of it. I like good whiskey and will drive a considerable distance to get it.

White Dog
01-27-2011, 11:45
Lately I've been trying to avoid any controversy on this site, but...

I will generalize, Josh, because I do see some patterns in regards to the SB attitude towards Micros. Not all, but generally.

The only way a Micro will get any positive chatter on SB is if they:

1. Spend $200,000 on equipment and raw materials.

2. Put their new make in barrels with absolutely no releases coming out for at least 6 years.

3. Charge $19.99 a 750ml when they finally do release something.

And even if this happens, which it won't due to the economics involved, someone will point out that OGD BIB is better for $3 less.

ILLfarmboy
01-27-2011, 11:59
Lately I've been trying to avoid any controversy on this site, but...

I will generalize, Josh, because I do see some patterns in regards to the SB attitude towards Micros. Not all, but generally.



I, and many others took a wait and see attitude when Templeton first began selling whiskey. We even made excuses for them, for a while, hoping that they would actually build a working distillery and lay down their own distillate for aging. But time proved Chuck right. If people like me are jaded, it is because so may micro-distilleries have done just what Templeton has done, failed to transition from a bottler/ buyer of bulk whiskey into distiller.

Stick around White Dog, you too may become jaded.

White Dog
01-27-2011, 12:01
I, and many others took a wait and see attitude when Templeton first began selling whiskey. We even made excuses for them, for a while, hoping that they would actually build a working distillery and lay down their own distillate for aging. But time proved Chuck right. If people like me are jaded, it is because so may micro-distilleries have done just what Templeton has done, failed to transition from a bottler/ buyer of bulk whiskey into distiller.

Stick around White Dog, you too may become jaded.


Actually, I've been jaded for years. But this comparison doesn't quite work for me. If this new distillery is doing their own mash and distillation, which it appears they are, there is no comparison to the fraud that is Templeton.

ILLfarmboy
01-27-2011, 12:04
Actually, I've been jaded for years. But this comparison doesn't quite work for me. If this new distillery is doing their own mash and distillation, which it appears they are, there is no comparison to the fraud that is Templeton.

A fair point.............

Inthewater
01-27-2011, 12:25
A fair point.............

And one I think most of us, at least the Iowa folks here, have been making.

Again, bottoms up, guys.

(glug, glug)

:)

Inthewater
01-27-2011, 12:26
Lately I've been trying to avoid any controversy on this site, but...

I will generalize, Josh, because I do see some patterns in regards to the SB attitude towards Micros. Not all, but generally.

The only way a Micro will get any positive chatter on SB is if they:

1. Spend $200,000 on equipment and raw materials.

2. Put their new make in barrels with absolutely no releases coming out for at least 6 years.

3. Charge $19.99 a 750ml when they finally do release something.

And even if this happens, which it won't due to the economics involved, someone will point out that OGD BIB is better for $3 less.

White Dog, this is almost a perfect version of what I have seen here in regards to this type of product.

Great post.

Josh
01-27-2011, 12:47
Others have already responded to most of the other points, so I'll just respond to the following



3 - In an argument anytime someone says "in other words" they are about to grossly misconstrue something. You're true blue. There is nothing wrong with wanting to buy products produced locally. Conversely, there is nothing wrong with making a product locally and using that as a marketing edge. I also never said the product was not good and resent your implication that I did.

My point was that he seems more concerned about jumping on the Templeton "Made in Iowa" bandwagon than making good whiskey. I don't recall saying there was anything wrong with buying local. I visit my local farmer's market just about every Saturday morning, and prefer to buy all my produce in season and from local (at least in-state) growers. If anyone's all about local it's me.


5 - I hesitate to even respond to this garbage. My relationship is this: I've drank a bottle of Iowa Bourbon and posted my thoughts on SB. I'm from Iowa and see first-hand how Iowa Bourbon is marketed and who buys it. I've never been there, never met anyone affiliated with it. If I was affiliated with Iowa Bourbon would I really post a lackluster review of it online?

That sort of thing happens from time to time. Your continual defense of this distillery seemed odd to me. I apologize if I offended you by asking the question.

kbrighton
01-27-2011, 13:29
Actually, I've been jaded for years. But this comparison doesn't quite work for me. If this new distillery is doing their own mash and distillation, which it appears they are, there is no comparison to the fraud that is Templeton.

Just took these. I hope this clears up any confusion to what I do on a daily basis. Thanks to the Iowa guys who have tried to show you that im not a defensive jerk with a chip on my sholder.

Grains
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist1.jpg

Mash tun
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist2.jpg

Fermenters
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist3.jpg

Stills
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist4-1.jpg

Big barrels
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist5-1.jpg

Small barrels
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist6.jpg

Bottling line
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/bmw3er/dist7-1.jpg

Any other questions, fire away. I love doing this for a living and am willing to share my experiences

DeanSheen
01-27-2011, 13:32
A fair point.............

Yes but the key word remains "IF".

The whining about lack of acceptance on this board for micros seems to make an unstated case for complete acceptance.

Just because you make it, or in most cases source it, should not demand instant acceptance from an enthusiast crowd.

While I appreciate the spirit of the sentiments about running micros "off the board" without questioning we will not learn and if a producer does not care enough about their product to clarify points of interest then why should I as a consumer care enough to purchase said product?

Recent board history on Micro topics have flushed many 'convenient' advocates out of the woodwork. The presence of blog self promoters and for lack of a better word, shills, diminishes the value and content of this website.

As long as the tone remains civil so too should the skepticism remain as it is vital to our understanding of the products being promoted.

IowaJeff
01-27-2011, 13:33
A very poor attempt at humor.

Not all of us are from big cities and I for one am a man of modest means. I'm a redneck and proud of it. I like good whiskey and will drive a considerable distance to get it.


It was a satire of insular message board behavior. I'm not actually saying anyone is rich or has a butler named Jeeves. No offense was intended, hence the disclaimer.

I'm done arguing, I don't even know what its about anymore. Anyway, I'm glad KBrighton isn't thin-skinned and posted some cool pics. Whiskey barrels in Iowa is a beautiful sight!

Inthewater
01-27-2011, 14:05
Whiskey barrels in Iowa is a beautiful sight!

Yes it is.

Looks good, actually. Like I said before, even if I don't care for it, at least you actually try to make it.

I DO have a big chip on my shoulder about Templeton, just because of all the incessant ranting and raving about it, and how it is "made" in Templeton, IA.

I actually don't hate the stuff, and we have covered that they say right on the site that it is not distilled in Iowa, but that is not what they sell and project in their adverts.

Anyway, looks good, Kolin. Thanks for sharing the pictures. Gonna give it a try soon and let you know what I think about it. Good luck with the fire-water.

Inthewater
01-27-2011, 14:09
I have another question, and this may be a little honest, but was the choice of glass to bottle in made with Templeton in mind? :grin:

Looks awfully familiar, though I have seen a couple others in the same bottle style pre-Templeton around here, for sure.

kbrighton
01-27-2011, 14:19
I have another question, and this may be a little honest, but was the choice of glass to bottle in made with Templeton in mind? :grin:

Looks awfully familiar, though I have seen a couple others in the same bottle style pre-Templeton around here, for sure.

Here is the story from our side, although Mr. Bush might tell you something different.

Years ago when we were both start-up companies ('05) we were having a talk about our future packaging designs. We already had a dark rum project in the works, and we told him we were going to use a short, fat bottle. Our dark rum process had always called for used whiskey barrels. We didn't have any, but scott would have some in 2 years. So when his first batch of rye came out in '07 we took 10 of his used barrels. We filled them with rum and let them sit just short of 3 years. In october '09 we emptied the barrels and bottled our first barrel aged spirit. We used our idea of short and fat bottles, even though he had already released his rye 2 years sooner in the same design. People called us out for trying to copy them, but in reality it was the opposite. Now we have a line of 5 aged spirits in the same bottle with similar labels. The bourbon, Apple Brandy, Grape Brandy, Dark Rum and a still awaiting release single malt whiskey. Our dark rum is now aged in our own used bourbon barrels, since we have a lot of them.

Inthewater
01-27-2011, 14:27
Interesting.

You can sure see how it would look the other way to people that don't have this info, though.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing. Cool inside info is always encouraged here.

IowaJeff
01-27-2011, 15:09
I'll have to get a bottle of the rum sometime. I've had a taste of it and remember liking it. Maybe if I start drinking rum summer will come faster. The single malt should be interesting too - I've liked some of the other micro-distiller single malts I've tried.

Also, I was just on your website and saw that you serve food! That pushes it over the edge for me, I gotta get out there!

craigthom
01-27-2011, 15:26
Just took these. I hope this clears up any confusion to what I do on a daily basis. Thanks to the Iowa guys who have tried to show you that im not a defensive jerk with a chip on my sholder.


It's the words that you've written that show you to be a defensive jerk (but, to be fair "jerk" was not the word I really wanted to use; I was being nice).

It's not the whiskey or your process that shows your character; it's the way you reacted to criticism (from Iowa people! Imagine that!).

We get why you need to sell a young whiskey, and we get why, at this time, the "(actually) made in Iowa" thing is what's going to sell it. You need to have money coming in. You can't just sit around for four years, putting money into the product, before any comes out.

But you are selling whiskey, and people are buying it, and they are going to discuss it.

You could have come here, explained what you were doing, shown the pictures, and all that, without insulting anyone. I guarantee you would have been greeted warmly. People would have asked questions, people would have said they liked what you were doing, probably purchased some of it (some already have), and looked forward to buying other products in the future.

Instead, you decided to start off by calling people snobs.

What you could do now is admit that was a mistake and apologize for it. Don't you think it was a bad idea? We understand that you are passionate about this, but don't you think insulting people is the wrong way to go about promotion? Just say so.

fishnbowljoe
01-27-2011, 16:23
Well, I figured I'd put my two cents in. JUST BECAUSE I CAN!! :hot:

I'm really getting tired of some of the responses some people give a few new members here. I think a few folks need to back off a little, and stop trying to read too much into a new members posts, or intentions. Was this thread started by Kbrighton? NO! He joined in the thread and tried to explain a bit about his products, and what he's trying to do. He even invited anyone out for a tour of his facility if they're in the area. He also stated that he's trying to branch out, and learn a few things. Did he come in here blatantly advertising or trying to sell his products? NO! He may have made a statement about us bourbon "snobs" but he also explained himself in what was to me, no uncertain terms. He even said that he was a "snob" in some of his pursuits too.

It seems to me that some members here like to stir things up just because. It is also my opinion that there are others who can't wait for someone to start something, then they jump on the band wagon. Wow. That's novel. No original thought processes involved at all. God bless Mr.T. "I pity the fool!"

I fully expect some people to give me a hard time about my post/opinions. (Moderator or not :grin:) No problem. I have big shoulders. I can handle it. Besides, I don't really care one way or another. But before you call me out, just remember the warm welcome we gave Dave Pickerel (amongst others) when he first posted here. :rolleyes: Yeah. I jumped on that one too. I won't make that mistake again. It might be a good idea if some of you thought twice before putting your foot in your mouth. Ooops. My bad. Before you change feet. :slappin: Have a nice day. :grin: Joe

kbrighton
01-27-2011, 16:23
It's the words that you've written that show you to be a defensive jerk (but, to be fair "jerk" was not the word I really wanted to use; I was being nice).

It's not the whiskey or your process that shows your character; it's the way you reacted to criticism (from Iowa people! Imagine that!).

We get why you need to sell a young whiskey, and we get why, at this time, the "(actually) made in Iowa" thing is what's going to sell it. You need to have money coming in. You can't just sit around for four years, putting money into the product, before any comes out.

But you are selling whiskey, and people are buying it, and they are going to discuss it.

You could have come here, explained what you were doing, shown the pictures, and all that, without insulting anyone. I guarantee you would have been greeted warmly. People would have asked questions, people would have said they liked what you were doing, probably purchased some of it (some already have), and looked forward to buying other products in the future.

Instead, you decided to start off by calling people snobs.

What you could do now is admit that was a mistake and apologize for it. Don't you think it was a bad idea? We understand that you are passionate about this, but don't you think insulting people is the wrong way to go about promotion? Just say so.
We covered the snob comment already. It is known now that I wasn't insulting anyone, just describing your passion for a single product. It was said that "connisour" was the word I was looking for, but personally I do not take offense to being called a wine snob, cigar snob, car snob, etc. as I have been in the past. Thus the inherent problem with the internet; sarcasm doesn't work and subtle wordings are taken the wrong way then blown completely out of proportion. I think we are past it, and can now resume our regularly scheduled whisk(e)y chat..

cowdery
01-27-2011, 16:43
When you come into someone else's home two things need to happen for it to be a good experience. The hosts should be kind, generous and gracious hosts, and the guest should learn and respect house rules and customs.

It's not quite as easy as that because the regular community here is so diverse, but it's not a bad analogy.

As Brad pointed out, there's a long history on this board of people coming in all excited about some new distillery only to learn it's a Potemkin. Many people here tried for a long time to give each new claimant the benefit of the doubt. I took a lot of heat for being a spoilsport and peeling back the facades. Every cynic is a disappointed former idealist, after all.

Kbrighton came out of the box hostile, aided and abetted by IowaJeff, and got hostile back. That's not the way to learn the history. It's not the way to say hello. If you don't think you were hostile, go back to the 'guest' analogy. In this house, that was considered a hostile introduction.

It's gotten better since.

Back to the guest analogy, I think it's up to the guest to say "sorry we got off on the wrong foot, let's start over," and we haven't quite gotten there, but close.

Personally, all it took for me to fall in love with you was the pictures, but that's just me, and since you've already said you don't care if I love you or not, my heart aches a little.

But keep doing what you're doing and if you want to hang around here, accept SB.com for what it is...a one-of-a-kind place in cyberspace.

Virus_Of_Life
01-27-2011, 17:10
Kbrighton came out of the box hostile, aided and abetted by IowaJeff, and got hostile back. That's not the way to learn the history. It's not the way to say hello. If you don't think you were hostile, go back to the 'guest' analogy. In this house, that was considered a hostile introduction.
No, he didn't Chuck.


Back to the guest analogy, I think it's up to the guest to say "sorry we got off on the wrong foot, let's start over," and we haven't quite gotten there, but close.We're plenty close enough.


I'll echo Joe's sentiments in that the attitudes are getting a bit much at times. The PR&C is there for that kind of attitude, if you don't get enough there then take a break or play in traffic or something. :slappin:

This person has been about as open as we always ask for, yet somehow still seems to be getting railed. Some people treat KBD that way, and for a reason, but this person had done nothing to deserve it.

And yes, funny how many of us would jokingly refer to ourselves and 'bourbon snobs' yet someone else using it gets such vitriol. I personally am a big snob about bourbon.

CorvallisCracker
01-27-2011, 17:39
And yes, funny how many of us would jokingly refer to ourselves and 'bourbon snobs' yet someone else using it gets such vitriol. I personally am a big snob about bourbon.

Oh, that's a pretty typical human trait. The classic example is African-Americans and the n-word. They apply it to themselves all the time, but are (justifiably) upset when someone in another ethnic group uses it. When an outsider uses it, it's an insult (and a negative reaction is justified because it's usually meant as an insult).

The post where KB used the s-word was his first, and his status at that point was outsider, so it got a different reaction than if some long-time SB.com member made a comment like, yeah, we're all bourbon snobs here.

Doesn't make it right, mind you. It's just how people are. It didn't particularly bother me when I read it, but I did think Oh, that's gonna ruffle some feathers.

Would have come across much better if he'd followed the s-word with a :) . Never underestimate the power of a smiley.

callmeox
01-27-2011, 18:49
Where would the world be without snobs and the White Knights who swoop in to straighten them out?

craigthom
01-27-2011, 19:46
We covered the snob comment already. It is known now that I wasn't insulting anyone, just describing your passion for a single product. It was said that "connisour" was the word I was looking for, but personally I do not take offense to being called a wine snob, cigar snob, car snob, etc. as I have been in the past. Thus the inherent problem with the internet; sarcasm doesn't work and subtle wordings are taken the wrong way then blown completely out of proportion. I think we are past it, and can now resume our regularly scheduled whisk(e)y chat..

While you may call yourself a snob, and you may not be offended by it, it is generally accepted to be an insult (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snob). The word was taken just as it is defined.

Is it your pride that is making you dance all around an apology without actually giving one? Sometimes you just have to suck it up and admit you were wrong.

craigthom
01-27-2011, 19:59
Would have come across much better if he'd followed the s-word with a :) . Never underestimate the power of a smiley.

I strongly disagree. An insult followed by a smiley, or a "no offense", is much worse, since the author is trying to weasel out of what he or she actually wrote while still writing it.

Josh
01-27-2011, 20:24
I don't see how asking questions and stating opinions is "stirring things up" or instigating. I don't recall claiming that anybody's mother wore chinese army boots or anything like that. Worse things than "I don't think he cares about making good whiskey" or "I don't understand his business plan" are said about Chris Morris, Bill Samuels and others on a regular basis here. If what I said about Kolin's operation was uncivil then I think we need something added to the rules that explicitly state rules of conduct for responding to retailers and producers, because I honestly cannot tell where the line between opinion and "incivility" is anymore.

Let people who don't know me or have forgotten my YEARS of posts stating how much I like Templeton Rye (it was on my list of recommended whiskeys for a while), my posts on Grand Traverse Distillery and other positive things I've frequently said about micros (in this thread even) paint me as the poster boy for intolerant hatred of micros. I've been accused of worse.

If this operation turns out good product, god bless them. It seems they're doing it "the right way" and that's something I think everyone here can get behind. The attitude is what ticked some off, not that he's a micro-distiller or that he's from Iowa or anything else.

CaptainQ
01-27-2011, 20:45
JFC :deadhorse: Move along people.

ILLfarmboy
01-27-2011, 22:54
My reaction to kbrighton's post? Worst producer-to-consumer communication ever.

I think that's what it boilds down to.

I was recently walking through the Northpark shopping mall in Davenport Iowa and passed a booth giving out samples from Wide River Winery located in Clinton IA. The lady was a model of what I expect from someone hawking a product; polite, congenial and friendly. She was everything I would try to be if I were selling something.

My recent forays into the world of beer via local microbreweries have been pretty much the same. If you want to sell a product it pays to be amiable. No one has been offended by my dislike of a free sample and taken the attitude "if you don't like our dry Irish stout, big effin deal, we'll sell plenty to our real target demographic" Had anyone had that attitude, openly voicing it anyhow, I wouldn't have later bought a growler of something of theirs I did find to my liking nor planed later day trips around eating at their joint and drinking more of their brews.

Looking at kbrighton's profile, I see he is in his mid-twenties. I wonder how much experience he has in customer relations. Youth could also explain some of his hot-headedness. God knows I still tend to be that way sometimes, and I was a lot worse when I was younger. I took things personally, as kbrighton appeared to do.

If I've been a jackass and painted with a broad brush, I'm sorry.

I enjoyed the pictures, and after viewing them am guardedly optimistic, again............

IowaJeff
01-28-2011, 07:34
Kbrighton came out of the box hostile, aided and abetted by IowaJeff, and got hostile back. That's not the way to learn the history. It's not the way to say hello. If you don't think you were hostile, go back to the 'guest' analogy. In this house, that was considered a hostile introduction.


How did I aid and abet any hostility? I merely tried to defend a newcomer against what I felt was unnecessary negativity. As a newcomer myself I know I wouldn't want to flamed because of a minor misunderstanding. I never made any personal attacks against anyone. Also, again, I don't even know KBrighton!

I understand you shouldn't come into someone's 'house' with hostility, but it was made clear that no hostility was intended. If this was not clear in the initial post, it was made clear afterwards.

Also, this is not your house.

Scrub
01-28-2011, 08:14
I just wish I could get a bottle of that whiskey here in NC. If discussing the distiller/distillery is worth eight pages, I must at least find out how it tastes.

kbrighton
01-28-2011, 09:19
I just wish I could get a bottle of that whiskey here in NC. If discussing the distiller/distillery is worth eight pages, I must at least find out how it tastes.

http://www.binnys.com/spirits/Cedar_Ridge_Iowa_Bourbon_25345.html

Price jumped $2 since Monday. Not sure why they are selling it for so much. We have it at $36 at the distillery

cowdery
01-28-2011, 16:54
Although a few people have been overtly hostile, most of us are just trying to give you guys a gentle orientation, but the chips on your shoulders are apparently just too big. Why that may be is between you and your therapist. I can't explain it any better than I already have.

Example. I know who I am and most people here know who I am. I sure don't need some defensive newbie telling me this isn't my house. No, it's not my house, but it's a house I've lived in since it was built. I moved in at the direct invitation of the owner and I've contributed more than a little sweat equity to its upkeep and development.

jmpyle
01-28-2011, 22:24
Although a few people have been overtly hostile, most of us are just trying to give you guys a gentle orientation, but the chips on your shoulders are apparently just too big. Why that may be is between you and your therapist. I can't explain it any better than I already have.

Example. I know who I am and most people here know who I am. I sure don't need some defensive newbie telling me this isn't my house. No, it's not my house, but it's a house I've lived in since it was built. I moved in at the direct invitation of the owner and I've contributed more than a little sweat equity to its upkeep and development.

Chuck you are anything but gentle. :slappin:

IowaJeff
01-31-2011, 09:13
Although a few people have been overtly hostile, most of us are just trying to give you guys a gentle orientation, but the chips on your shoulders are apparently just too big. Why that may be is between you and your therapist. I can't explain it any better than I already have.

Example. I know who I am and most people here know who I am. I sure don't need some defensive newbie telling me this isn't my house. No, it's not my house, but it's a house I've lived in since it was built. I moved in at the direct invitation of the owner and I've contributed more than a little sweat equity to its upkeep and development.

I'm the defensive one? I've only defended a third party against what I felt was an over reaction. I wasn't trying to be a 'white knight' or trying to 'stir the pot.' Despite being a mere lowly unimportant newbie, I've enjoyed my short time here and would really like to hear from distillers or anyone else involved in the industry. I thought the reaction to KBrighton was not warranted and of the type that would hinder such discourse on this board.

My point in saying 'this is not your house' was to point out that when you, or anyone else, shouts get off my lawn, it affects the community, as it is not any individual's lawn. I realize you have fertilized the lawn over the years where I have not.

cowdery
01-31-2011, 15:06
Let's put it another way.

I come here to talk about American whiskey, as I've been doing for more than 10 years. I don't come here to be criticized by someone who just got here. Can you at least put yourself in my shoes and see where I might reasonably consider that presumptuous on your part?

In return, I'm willing to pretend the insulting implication of "fertilized" was unintentional, you know, like "snob."

nivto
01-31-2011, 17:02
Let's put it another way.

I come here to talk about American whiskey, as I've been doing for more than 10 years. I don't come here to be criticized by someone who just got here. Can you at least put yourself in my shoes and see where I might reasonably consider that presumptuous on your part?

In return, I'm willing to pretend the insulting implication of "fertilized" was unintentional, you know, like "snob."

Nobody comes to a forum to be criticized by anybody, whether that be a "newbie" or an established member of the community. IowaJeff disagreed with yours and others assessment of kbrighton, and he chose to stick up for him. He was very rational and didn't insult anybody. In return, he received an accusation from one member of being affiliated with the distillery, and he received a harsh comment from you. If I was him, I'd be frustrated and have a reaction, as well. It doesn't matter if he has 10 posts or 10,000 the comments made to him were unfair and harsh. And the "fertilize" comment meant to me that, despite his disagreement with you, he recognizes your accomplishments and contributions to this community both online and in real life.

I've never frequented a board where the members are generally so civil and welcoming, but once discussions start become very quick to jump all over somebody for slipping up, sometimes in the most minor of ways. Some of you need to learn the difference between setting somebody straight who is spouting off about things they don't know, and attacking a "newbie" member who actually seems to have something positive to contribute to the community, which in this case, seems to be IowaJeff.

just another newbie's .02

Josh
02-01-2011, 03:42
Nobody comes to a forum to be criticized by anybody, whether that be a "newbie" or an established member of the community. IowaJeff disagreed with yours and others assessment of kbrighton, and he chose to stick up for him. He was very rational and didn't insult anybody. In return, he received an accusation from one member of being affiliated with the distillery, and he received a harsh comment from you.


just another newbie's .02

There's a difference between a question and an accusation. I asked a question. There have been MULTIPLE INCIDENTS of sock puppets or employees of a distillery joining solely to talk up their products, so it was a perfectly legit question. This recently happened in the "New Guy Doing a Nutty Taste Test" thread. Check out pp 3 & 4. It's rarely as blantant as that, though. So it does happen, probably more often than we think.

GOCOUGS2002
02-01-2011, 07:14
A couple thoughts on this and I'll go back to reading about Bourbon...

Newbies (I hope you don't find that term offensive): Don't take it so personal, this board is more civil than some I've frequented (and subsequently do not participate in anymore); these guys/gals are here to share knowledge (no matter how crotchety it may come off) and once you've been around for a while you will learn that.

While I applaud the newbies coming together, it shouldn't be to fight off Chuck or anyone else for that matter. Come together to further your knowledge on Bourbon and the enjoyment of figuring out the intricacies of each bottle.

I hope that this thread gets back on track and starts discussing the micro bourbon....

Disclaimer: I've been here for a couple years but still consider myself a newbie due to my lack of historical knowledge, a palate that doesn't yet want to cooperate with my sniffer...but I am the reigning Fantasy Football champion so that should count for something.

IowaJeff
02-01-2011, 10:33
Let's put it another way.

I come here to talk about American whiskey, as I've been doing for more than 10 years. I don't come here to be criticized by someone who just got here. Can you at least put yourself in my shoes and see where I might reasonably consider that presumptuous on your part?

In return, I'm willing to pretend the insulting implication of "fertilized" was unintentional, you know, like "snob."

Hahaha! I actually thought of putting in something about not meaning feces when I referred to 'fertilizer' but I thought it would be construed as being 'cute.' I really did not mean it that way. It was intended to recognize that you are instrumental in the success of SB, but that I still want to play on the lawn with others.

IowaJeff
02-01-2011, 10:43
There's a difference between a question and an accusation. I asked a question. There have been MULTIPLE INCIDENTS of sock puppets or employees of a distillery joining solely to talk up their products, so it was a perfectly legit question. This recently happened in the "New Guy Doing a Nutty Taste Test" thread. Check out pp 3 & 4. It's rarely as blantant as that, though. So it does happen, probably more often than we think.

I admit I was initially a bit offended, but I realize now how the mistake could be made. Once the thead passed a few pages it was no longer clear that I posted the initial semi-critical review and my defense could be seen as being a confederate of some sort.

I don't think there are any hard feelings here. I don't think I attacked anyone (if I did I apologize) and I certainly don't bear any grudges. I'm not the moderator of this discussion/argument, but I'm ready to move on to bourbon.

Inthewater
02-03-2011, 09:10
Let's put it another way.

I come here to talk about American whiskey, as I've been doing for more than 10 years. I don't come here to be criticized by someone who just got here. Can you at least put yourself in my shoes and see where I might reasonably consider that presumptuous on your part?

In return, I'm willing to pretend the insulting implication of "fertilized" was unintentional, you know, like "snob."

Being here for 10 years means you are an awesome part of this community and you have helped it grow to what it is now, but it doesn't mean you are beyond reproach, does it?

I think anyone can see that you, or anyone in your shoes, should feel somewhat empowered by that sort of commitment and longevity, but you are still just another member of a community. Maybe you are #5 and I am #5005 or whatever, but as long as nothing is blantanly personal, shouldn't we all be somewhat similar ground here? And i totally took the "fertilized" comment to mean, such as a grounds keeper, or gardener, not the negative way you must have taken it.

Also, just because Jeff is from Iowa, Josh automatically assumed he "could" be some sort of plant. Even though his review was not favorable at all, nor was P_Elliott's.

Jeff has been a member for a decent amout of time, Kolin from CR just joined.

Anyway, I still haven't tried the stuff. Grrr.

Did manage to have some good stuff this weekend, though. Tastes good when you get 10 inches of snow and it's -2, as well.

:)

DeanSheen
02-03-2011, 10:34
You guys stick around long enough and you will see the patterns that Chuck , Josh and others reacted to. Maybe they were off base but the statements they made hardly warrant all the crying.

Inthewater
02-03-2011, 12:53
You guys stick around long enough and you will see the patterns that Chuck , Josh and others reacted to. Maybe they were off base but the statements they made hardly warrant all the crying.

This is quite true, for both sides of this discussion.

cowdery
02-03-2011, 17:47
This is quite true, for both sides of this discussion.

Where we presumably disagree is that I believe newbies have a responsibility to (1) learn the local culture before they leap in with both feet or, barring that, (2) they need to take it with grace when they get called out for committing a cultural faux pas.

The "other side" in this discussion has done neither.

You and those parties apparently disagree with the premise above. Obviously my tenure here does not put me above reproach, as evidenced by the fact that I am constantly being reproached. Nothing I've written has been in response to said reproach. Go back and read my original reaction to kbrighton's first post in this thread, which was his first post to the board. Realize that every criticism of me in this thread is based on that post. He wasn't reproaching me in that post, so nothing I've written in this thread is about me being "above reproach."

I concluded that post with, "I'm calling you out because part of making a product you intend to sell to the public is learning how to talk to that public, and you have a lot to learn."

That's how we talk to each other here, all of us. We can dish it out and we can take it. Sorry, but I have no patience with people who come in here and without knowing anything about us, start to criticize our way of doing things. That's what all this is about. I don't see how we can make such people feel welcome and I don't see why we should bother.

Does anybody else want to pick at this scab?

Inthewater
02-03-2011, 22:37
Cowdery, if you honestly think neither you or anyone else from the "other side" of the discussion did anything to inflame it, then I think it is you that needs to go back and re-read the thread.

"I come here to talk about American whiskey, as I've been doing for more than 10 years. I don't come here to be criticized by someone who just got here."

That sounds like someone saying, in lay man's terms for people like me, "You haven't been here long enough to question what I do or say, newbie."

I think half, or more, of the issue here is that you keep stepping in to post about things that likely haven't been directed at you for most of the last 6 pages.

There were others along the way that really took this whole thing a little too far, in my humble newbie opinion.

Anyway, I hope Kolin stays around and contributes. I'd like to hear more from people in the industry, when possible. Especially a small company in my state that is actually doing it right, rather than some of what we have seen before.

GOCOUGS2002
02-04-2011, 08:05
I think half, or more, of the issue here is that you keep stepping in to post about things that likely haven't been directed at you for most of the last 6 pages.

Ironic statement, you've been doing the same thing...

Inthewater
02-04-2011, 08:40
Ironic statement, you've been doing the same thing...

Negative, I am one of the newbie people from Iowa that stepped in early and had some issues with some things said early on.

Anyway, we have likely succeeded in turning a possible contributing member away. Even if he had some mis-steps right out of the gate, I feel like some things could have gone differently.

There is no doubt that he could have approached some things better and made some comments with more clarity, but I think we all could have.

The guy IS a bit younger, and I think a lot of us were probably more like that 10+ years ago (assuming on median age here) than we remember. He was obviously passionate about his product, which I think is good, he just didn't do the best at getting the info he had across. Hopefully he will take the constructive aspects of the criticism given and continue as a member.

Anyway, it's Friday, and that means I get to drink some bourbon. :D

Happy weekend.

Virus_Of_Life
02-04-2011, 09:21
If the next post in this thread isn't on topic it'll be closed, far too much bickering going on here!

jbutler
02-04-2011, 09:26
Not to belabor the obvious but what we have here is a thread quickly escalating into a flame war. Shutting it down.

If you want to play on this lawn folks, then play nice.