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callmeox
07-21-2010, 17:32
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/07/startup_companys_speedier_proc.html


Interesting read, but he will need more than a patent to get this off the ground.


Thoughts?

CorvallisCracker
07-21-2010, 17:41
Thoughts?

I don't know if it will work for Bourbon, but "heating, cooling and pressure" have certainly accelerated my aging process...

callmeox
07-21-2010, 18:25
I can see adding surface area and heat to speed up the color and flavor transfer from barrel to hooch, but how does one speed up the oxidation that takes place over time?

CorvallisCracker
07-21-2010, 18:29
Blow air (or oxygen) into it. Same sort of thing they do for carbonated water/soft drinks, but O2 rather than CO2.

DeanSheen
07-21-2010, 18:50
Great just what this town needs, to be known for the invention of "fake whiskey".

cowdery
07-21-2010, 19:51
Great just what this town needs, to be known for the invention of "fake whiskey".

In the first iteration of Bulleit, Tommy called it "engineered whiskey."

DeanSheen
07-21-2010, 20:23
In the first iteration of Bulleit, Tommy called it "engineered whiskey."

Well thanks for that Chuck, I guess it takes a little heat off.

tmckenzie
07-22-2010, 04:20
A guy from austria or some where called me the other day and he had a machine to speed it up based on nano technology. He said 4 years in 4 days. I fell off my chair laughing, I told him I would be scared to drink it. I doubt he will call me back.

gothbat
07-22-2010, 04:47
My friend and I were talking one day and we were both wondering what would happen if moved a barrel you were aging from a cold room to a hot room every week or so (figure it's been attempted but I've never read anything about this...) and it sounds like we may get to find out since that's what I assume he's doing... I'll try it if/when it hits shelves but I think the price I'd be willing to pay would be far less than what I'd be willing to pay for whiskey that's actually aged for a couple of years. Oh, and this certainly sounds more realistic than that device I saw an ad for a few years back that claims to age a shot of whiskey with magnetic fields... :]

cowdery
07-22-2010, 09:01
You never know with anything like this who is well-meaning if deluded and who is a scammer. Some of them don't know themselves.

My first question would be about due diligence. Have you found and reviewed all of the research that has already been done in this area? Some of it may be proprietary but there should be a lot in the public domain. This is hardly a new idea.

Most of these techniques accomplish something but they never get quite the same results as conventional aging. Also, faster isn't necessarily less expensive.

Heat cycling of warehouses is an acceleration technique that is widely accepted but not universally used.

I remain unmoved.

mrviognier
07-22-2010, 09:58
If you spend enough time in this industry (or enough time observing it), you'll learn that there's always some newcomer who'll claim to have found a shortcut to a qualitative and/or stylistic goal. It reminds me of those Japanese scientists that broke down the chemical composition of many First Growth Bordeaux, and claimed that they could replicate, say, Chateau Mouton-Rothschild in their lab. The resulting beverage was crap.

Time patience and tried-and-true methods have a reason for being the industry norm...at least when the highest possible quality is your goal. As P.T. used to say, there's a sucker born every minute.

CorvallisCracker
07-22-2010, 10:07
I know the craft distillers would hate it, but perhaps there would be some value in the US adopting the EU/Canadian standard of identity for whiskey - that it must be barrel aged for at least three years before you can label it "whisk(e)y".

That would put a quick stop to nonsense like what's being attempted by Lix.

mrviognier
07-22-2010, 10:09
Good idea; however, I wouldn't hold my breath. I have to imagine that natural market forces will take care of this guy...at least in the quality end of the market.

tmckenzie
07-22-2010, 10:54
I disagree with corvallis. I think a lot of (craft distillers) would be lining up. Bill Owens evidently thinks so too. What a shame.

Joshua
07-22-2010, 10:59
Well a microwave cooks a steak faster than a grill or smoker... but do you really want to microwave your good steaks?

Just because it can be done faster, doesn't mean it's going to be the same quality. I can't think of a "faster way" that is better in production of much of anything. Well aside from an economic standpoint... but we're talking quality and not cost here.

jburlowski
07-22-2010, 12:58
Most of these techniques accomplish something but they never get quite the same results as conventional aging. Also, faster isn't necessarily less expensive.



As in: age = wisdom.

Josh
07-22-2010, 13:31
I disagree with corvallis. I think a lot of (craft distillers) would be lining up. Bill Owens evidently thinks so too. What a shame.

Am I the only one around here who thinks it's awesome that one of the most pessimistic people here with regard to craft distilling IS a craft distiller himself?

pepcycle
07-22-2010, 16:43
The only way to the New World is to sail from Europe to the West Indies.
Anybody who thinks there's a better way risks unknown consequences.

Gillman
07-22-2010, 17:47
Well, there have been innovations in the past that worked, notably cycling. What's being bruited now is simply a development of that.

Gary

CorvallisCracker
07-22-2010, 18:17
The only way to the New World is to sail from Europe to the West Indies.
Anybody who thinks there's a better way risks unknown consequences.

Some ways might be better, and some not. Can you say "Hindenberg"?

cowdery
07-22-2010, 20:07
I'm not saying don't try. Always keep reaching for the stars, baby. I'm just saying don't expect me to wet myself until you've got something to show.

Leopold
07-22-2010, 21:31
Just because it can be done faster, doesn't mean it's going to be the same quality. I can't think of a "faster way" that is better in production of much of anything.

Recall that all major US whiskey distillers switched from pot distillation to continuously operating column stills. It's exponentially faster, and exponentially cheaper. Do you think that quality suffered?

I'm with Mr. Cowdery. Manipulating pressure, temperature, oxygen, and movement are nothing new in the world of aged spirits. I've read many papers on the subject that were authored well over a hundred years ago. This is nothing new.

Joshua
07-22-2010, 22:07
I'm not taking money into the equation, that creates a whole new can of worms... and I was primarily referring to aging, the long haul. Arguably, some people the feel the quality DID suffer. Of course, with things of this nature 'quality' can be fairly subjective.

I was stating that with all crafted things, you can only 'cheat' so much... such as the comment about microwaving steak. I have no doubt in my mind that you can age a spirit faster using technology, however I'm fully convinced it's not going to be the exact same result as using traditional means. I don't believe you can achieve the same result. however with taste and 'quality' being subjective, some folks may prefer the alternate result.

You stated the manipulation of pressure, temp, oxygen, and movement are nothing new... which is true, no doubt. However it looks like most of the experiments with aging tricks have been unsuccessful. This, makes me skeptical, although with anything new I am interested and willing to give it an open minded taste.

cowdery
07-23-2010, 19:47
Semantically speaking, you cannot "age a spirit faster using technology." You can simulate some of the effects of aging but that's not aging or "faster aging," it's pressurizing or infusing or whatever it is. Only aging is aging. Even heat cycling, which is pretty well accepted, only affects absorption. It doesn't affect a lot of the other things that happen.

The semantic point isn't the point, of course, but it's a metaphor.

I really wonder about the due diligence of the people who are giving these grants and to what extent the whole thing isn't just about playing the system. Like the guys who sell the "making money" systems who don't tell you that the only way they've found to make money is by selling phony making money systems to suckers like you.

MarkEdwards
07-24-2010, 07:48
As in: age = wisdom.

Gads, I am SOOOO wise, then :smiley_acbt:

MarkEdwards
07-24-2010, 07:50
The only way to the New World is to sail from Europe to the West Indies.
Anybody who thinks there's a better way risks unknown consequences.

They obviously never tried simply drilling through the center of the earth. Lazy bums. :rolleyes:

MarkEdwards
07-24-2010, 07:52
Some ways might be better, and some not. Can you say "Hindenberg"?

I'm just waiting for some clueless marketeer to sell a Hindenberg brand quick cooker. :hot:

mrviognier
07-24-2010, 07:59
Well, there have been innovations in the past that worked, notably cycling.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Technological advances have some merit in artisan endeavors such as distilling and fermenting. Development of new yeast strains to play up some organolpetic character in a wine, utilizing jacketed stainless steel fermenters to control fermentation temperatures, etc. are all welcome additions to the trade. These advancements are supportive of - not circumventive to - product quality.

It's just when someone claims to be able to circumvent established methodologies and still achieve identical qualitative results that I raise a skeptical eyebrow.

callmeox
07-24-2010, 08:33
It's just when someone claims to be able to circumvent established methodologies and still achieve identical qualitative results that I raise a skeptical eyebrow.

He's a whiskey alchemist.

Gillman
07-24-2010, 21:52
The history of whiskey is one of innovation, but it doesn't occur in a straight line. From wild to mixed strain to pure culture yeasts, from flat boats to grocers' shops to built warehouses, from the latter to artificially heated and cooled warehouses to accelerate the number of cycles (movement of whiskey into and from the barrel).... I am not sure where process improvement starts and breakthrough commences. Cycling is said to save considerable natural aging time, so quick aging seems to me on a kind of continuum...

Slow oxidation seems the main challenge, but I don't see why one day that cannot be emulated. So many scientific breakthroughs have occurred in other fields that were thought impossible at the outset.

Gary

MarkEdwards
07-25-2010, 03:31
So many scientific breakthroughs have occurred in other fields that were thought impossible at the outset.

Like them folks at MIT, working on an electric thinkin' machine. Personally, I don't think it'll ever work... :grin: