Alltech and Pearce Lyons Bourbon

[pepcycle]

http://www.topsinlex.com/Photos/3890/Alltech+unveils+Pearse+Reserve+Bourbon

[callmeox]

I can't wait until we get a review from John Hansell and stunned silence from Col. Cowdery. :grin:

They link calls it bourbon, but the site calls it a malt. It looks like the equestrian games sponsors want to have their cake and eat it too with respect to their European visitors.

My guess: It tastes young, but at a premium price. :slappin:

[barturtle]

http://www.alltech.com/en_US/media/releases/Pages/Alltech-launches-Pearse-Lyons-Reserve-malt-whiskey.aspx

But the question is: Is it on a shelf and can I buy it? Show me where and I'll be there this week.

[callmeox]

http://www.alltech.com/en_US/media/releases/Pages/Alltech-launches-Pearse-Lyons-Reserve-malt-whiskey.aspx

But the question is: Is it on a shelf and can I buy it? Show me where and I'll be there this week.


According to one release that I saw, you can get your fill of young malt whiskey at a premium price at your local Liquor Barn starting 8/18.

[cowdery]

I will say this. They've hardly told us anything about it and what they have told us sounds dubious. Not a great start.

They may even be wrong. They may be first to market with a Kentucky-made malt whiskey, but we know Woodford Reserve laid down a batch of malt whiskey several years ago. Made in Forsyth pot stills too, by the way.

Heaven Hill also has some malt whiskey in wood that they made four or five years ago.

And as near as I can tell, Pearse Lyons Reserve isn't even malt whiskey. The label says "whiskey" and the word "malt" is nowhere to be seen.

[kickert]

They may even be wrong. They may be first to market with a Kentucky-made malt whiskey, but we know Woodford Reserve laid down a batch of malt whiskey several years ago. Made in Forsyth pot stills too, by the way.


Corsair released our Triple Smoke, an American single malt to limited markets a couple months ago.

[barturtle]

Perhaps they can't label it as malt, as it's not an all-malt recipe, like say an Irish-Whiskey which would contain some unmalted barley.

If we remember this thread (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9590&page=2&highlight=alltech) where it was announced that that's what Alltech would be producing.

There is not a class/type code for USA-produced Irish Whiskey (as I'm sure Irish Distillers would throw a fit)

According to the TTB they have it listed as Class/type 109 "Other Straight Whiskey"

DSP-KY-15004 for those that keep track of such things.

The back label gives the only hints to this Irish-style: "master distiller, Irishman, Dr. T Pearse Lyons.......mastered the craft working at distilleries near his home in Ireland"

[kickert]

According to the TTB they have it listed as Class/type 109 "Other Straight Whiskey"


I am pretty sure most American Single Malts are being classed in the "Other" category. I know this is the case for sure with McCarthy's, which in my opinion, is the most "single malt-esque" of the micros.

[pepcycle]

Dr Lyons worked at Jameson and Guinness.

AllTech has purchased a few acres of land in Lexington, so they have plans for more production and more products.

I do believe this is an American version of Irish Whisky, so classification as "other straight whiskey" does cover it.

How they get away with using the word bourbon is beyond me.

Release right before WEG is a good move though.

[barturtle]

It should be noted that the original link has been changed from:

http://www.topsinlex.com/Photos/3890/Alltech+unveils+Pearse+Reserve+Bourbon

to

http://www.topsinlex.com/Photos/3890/Alltech+unveils+Pearse+Reserve+Whiskey

Alltech's article that I linked to never says "bourbon" in reference to it's whiskey.

[cowdery]

The "bourbon" link was on an aggregator, no connection to the producer.

The other issue with "malt whiskey" under American rules is that aging in new charred oak is required, which is a problem if you're going for an Irish-type spirit.

The really interesting thing about Alltech is that it is, to the best of my knowledge, the only micro-distillery and micro-brewery started by a large corporation.

[barturtle]

The other issue with "malt whiskey" under American rules is that aging in new charred oak is required, which is a problem if you're going for an Irish-type spirit.

Not sure how you intended this to be read: did you mean it to be read that they didn't call it "malt whiskey" so that they could use used cooperage and therefore be better able to replicate the Irish profile?

The problem is they are calling it "Straight Whiskey", which requires a new, charred oak barrel, but does allow for mashbills containing less than 51% of any one grain.

Malt whiskey itself, according to US rules, does allow for only 51% of malted grain to be in the mash (it doesn't have to be all malt)...meaning my own statement about them not using the "malt whiskey" designation is incorrect.

[Joshua]

Bourbon Review had this to say...

Hittin' the shelves soon...Pearse Lyons Reserve! It aint bourbon, but it is the first single malt to be made in the USA within the last 90 yrs. Interesting play by Dr. Lyons, creator of Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale....

[kickert]

Bourbon Review had this to say...

Hittin' the shelves soon...Pearse Lyons Reserve! It aint bourbon, but it is the first single malt to be made in the USA within the last 90 yrs. Interesting play by Dr. Lyons, creator of Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale....

There are lots of American single malts on the market. I can name several off the top of my head: Tuthilltown, McCarthy's, Wasmunds.

[cowdery]

Not sure how you intended this to be read: did you mean it to be read that they didn't call it "malt whiskey" so that they could use used cooperage and therefore be better able to replicate the Irish profile?

Yes, that's what I meant.

The problem is they are calling it "Straight Whiskey"...

Sez who? It doesn't say that on the label as near as I can tell from the photograph on their web site. It just says "whiskey." That means it's some kind of whiskey all of one type. It probably qualifies for "whiskey distilled from malt mash," but who wants to use that mouthful if you can just use 'whiskey'? That's my assumption.

If the label does in fact say "straight whiskey" then you are correct. In that case they would also be required to state the actual age on the label if it is less than four years. That's not how I read the rules but it is how they seem to be being applied, the age statement requirement only kicks in if you qualify for and use "straight" in your official description.

They can say a lot of things in advertising or interviews, even call it malt whiskey. The rules only really govern the label. As I read the rules any whiskey that is all of one type (i.e., not a blend) may use the class name only without a type name, i.e., whiskey.

[barturtle]

The label just says "whiskey", but the label application type is 109 "other straight whiskey"

[cowdery]

The label just says "whiskey", but the label application type is 109 "other straight whiskey"

Which tells me the application wasn't approved.

Trust the label.

[barturtle]

Which tells me the application wasn't approved.

Trust the label.

STATUS
THE STATUS IS APPROVED.


CLASS/TYPE DESCRIPTION
OTHER STRAIGHT WHISKY

https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=10137001000490

[barturtle]

TTB ID: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) 10137001000490 https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/arrowrt.gif Printable Version (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29)
Status: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) APPROVED
Vendor Code: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) 17498
Serial #: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) 100002
Class/Type Code: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) OTHER STRAIGHT WHISKY
Origin Code: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) KENTUCKY
Brand Name: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) PEARSE LYONS RESERVE
Fanciful Name: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#)
Type of Application: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) LABEL APPROVAL
For Sale In: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#)
Total Bottle Capacity: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#)
Wine Vintage: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#)
Formula/SOP No.: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#) 1
Lab No./Lab Date: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#)
Approval Date: 05/24/2010
Qualifications: https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/images/q.gif (https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/#)

[cowdery]

I guess I don't believe everything I see on government web sites.

Let's wait until someone sees one in a store and can say what the label actually says. It just seems illogical that they would make something they're talking about as a malt whiskey that wouldn't be at least 51% malt.

If I'm doing the math right, if it's not at least 51% something then it has to be at least three grain, although I believe corn, malted barley and unmalted barley would count as three grains.

[barturtle]

Honestly, I just think someone messed up, either Alltech applied for the wrong label (and the TTB was dumb enough to let it through), or the TTB let them put out a label without the proper age statement.

[Virus_Of_Life]

Would anybody be too offended if I moved this out of ...Bourbon and into "Other ...." It seems like it isn't what they were originally calling it. If I am missing the point let me know, but it seems like this here ain't no bourbon and I ain't gonna be drinking it.

[kickert]

Let's wait until someone sees one in a store and can say what the label actually says. It just seems illogical that they would make something they're talking about as a malt whiskey that wouldn't be at least 51% malt.

If you follow Timothy's link, you can see the approved label... he is exactly right. It says "Other Straight Whiskey" on the approved COLA and the label itself has no age statement, no mention of any grain. In fact, the only thing it actually says about the product is: Whiskey | 40% Alc/Vol | 80 Proof | 750 ml

https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=10137001000490

[pepcycle]

Drinking some now.

First impression is the sweetness and malted barley character up front. Nose and palate.

I'm not getting a lot of wood or char, so this is very young (which it is) or barrel charring is very light. (or both)

Color is about the same as Ten High.

Finish is short and a little bitter (drying)

Good news: It ain't Scotch. Its more Irish

Bad News: The price is like Scotch

Value perspective is its worth trying, especially if someone else bought it.

[craigthom]

If I'm doing the math right, if it's not at least 51% something then it has to be at least three grain, although I believe corn, malted barley and unmalted barley would count as three grains.

I know this message is five months old, but I have to point out that the math is wrong. You could have 50% of one grain and 50% of another.

[cowdery]

The fact that it took someone five months to notice my mistake makes me feel a little better about it. But if my brother the math and physics teacher was here...

[craigthom]

The fact that it took someone five months to notice my mistake makes me feel a little better about it. But if my brother the math and physics teacher was here...

I'll try to do a better job keeping up, although numbers aren't really what mathematicians do.

Occasionally, when someone hands me the check and asks me to figure out how much each person owes "because you majored in math", I'll say, "hey, that's an application. You know how the operator "division" works on the set of real integers, right? My work is done."

[Tom Troland]

I recently spoke with an individual who claims to be knowledgeable about Pearse Lyons Reserve. I was told that the current whiskey was distilled for Alltech in Ireland, and it is about 6 years old. If so, then it was probably distilled at the Cooley Distillery which, as I understand it, does a fair amount of contract distilling.

Now consider the description of Pearse Lyons Reserve on their website:

"Distilled in dual copper pot stills from Scotland, Pearse Lyons Reserve is the first malt whiskey produced in Kentucky since 1919."

If my source is correct, then the description above is a classic example of whiskey spin - technically correct but deliberately misleading. Cooley Distillery in Ireland uses dual pot stills. Most likely they are from Scotland since I doubt that Ireland has a native still industry. (There are only three whiskey distilleries in Ireland.) And Pearse Lyons whiskey was "produced" in Kentucky in the sense that it may have been aged and certainly was bottled in Kentucky. Nowhere does Alltech claim the whiskey was distilled in Kentucky. Finally, the Alltech Distillery in Lexington does have dual Scottish (Forsyth) stills, a fact they proudly note when you visit. So they are hoping you will assume that Pearse Lyons Reserve was distilled at their Lexington facility. In the future, once their Kentucky distillate has matured, this statement will be true. In the meantime, perhaps, a little spin is in order.

For those who have not tried it, Pearse Lyons Reserve is a good whiskey. It tastes just like Irish whiskey. Perhaps this flavor profile is no surprise.

[cowdery]

In the future, once their Kentucky distillate has matured, this statement will be true. In the meantime, perhaps, a little spin is in order.

Everybody says this, that their sourced whiskey is just a bridge until their own whiskey is ready. Everybody says it and nobody does it. At least nobody has done it so far. That is, nobody has transitioned from sourced to self-made.

Nobody.

[sku]

I recently spoke with an individual who claims to be knowledgeable about Pearse Lyons Reserve. I was told that the current whiskey was distilled for Alltech in Ireland, and it is about 6 years old. If so, then it was probably distilled at the Cooley Distillery which, as I understand it, does a fair amount of contract distilling.

Now consider the description of Pearse Lyons Reserve on their website:

"Distilled in dual copper pot stills from Scotland, Pearse Lyons Reserve is the first malt whiskey produced in Kentucky since 1919."

If my source is correct, then the description above is a classic example of whiskey spin - technically correct but deliberately misleading.


If this is a sourced whiskey than I'd say their description goes beyond (or at least pushes the boundry) of "techincally correct." Saying it was produced in Kentucky when a company shipped it in from somewhere else and bottled it there is, at best, stretching the truth and more likely a blatent falsehood. If this is a sourced whiskey, the company should be ashamed of this statement and I wouldn't believe anything they say in the future.

[Tom Troland]

It is important to note that Alltech has already invested in a functioning distillery. And they are in the process of constructing a new, bigger building to house their brewery and distillery. (See http://www.lyonsspirits.com/distillery/Pages/TheFutureOfLyonsSpirits.aspx) (http://www.lyonsspirits.com/distillery/Pages/TheFutureOfLyonsSpirits.aspx%29). Alltech is a big, serious company, not known for doing things halfway. Also, they are currently distilling whiskey in Lexington. So I'm pretty sure that they plan to market this whiskey. In some ways, their startup with contract whiskey (if that, indeed, is what has happened) resembles Brown Forman's startup of Woodford Reserve. In the early days, Brown Forman didn't advertise too heavily that the brand was distilled entirely in Louisville, not at Labrot & Graham. But they would admit it if asked. Perhaps Alltech is being just a bit more coy.

[barturtle]

Everybody says this, that their sourced whiskey is just a bridge until their own whiskey is ready. Everybody says it and nobody does it. At least nobody has done it so far. That is, nobody has transitioned from sourced to self-made.

Nobody.

Wild Turkey. Was bulk before they bought a distillery.

I'm just sayin'.:cool:

[kyrocklover]

The Alltech rep at a tasting the other night indicated that they would have a bourbon on the market in a couple of years. I hope it's better than their current product.

[craigthom]

... resembles Brown Forman's startup of Woodford Reserve. In the early days, Brown Forman didn't advertise too heavily that the brand was distilled entirely in Louisville, not at Labrot & Graham. But they would admit it if asked. Perhaps Alltech is being just a bit more coy.

One big difference is that Woodford Reserve is still mostly whiskey from Louisville, with whiskey from Labrot & Graham added. Unless Alltech is going to continue to import bulk whiskey and flavor it with a little of their own, the analogy doesn't really work.

I wish I'd thought of the Wild Turkey example.

[cowdery]

Woodford is a bad analogy for several reasons. First, the whiskeys made at the two distilleries are identical in every respect, from the grain bill to the master distiller. Second, whiskey distilled at Shively but selected for Woodford does about half of its aging at Woodford. Third, Woodford has not, except very early in its existence, suggested there would ever be a transition from the current recipe to an all-Woodford one. Fourth, Woodford has been the way it is now since May of 2003. Most people have never had an all-Shively Woodford and the only all-Woodford Woodford is the Masters Collection.

I'm not making a value judgment about Woodford or anyone else, I'm just saying that the Woodford situation is so unique, if you actually look at it, that it's not very useful for comparison to anyone else.

Also, please keep in mind how Tom began his report: "I recently spoke with an individual who claims to be knowledgeable about Pearse Lyons Reserve." (Emphasis mine.) We're all speculating about something we don't even know to be true.

[pepcycle]

A clue to the provenance might be blue plastic drums marked 6 Year Old Scotch Whiskey that were seen in the vicinity of the brewery a few months before the release.
An unusually large shipment of used cooperage was in the area (Woodford Barrles)so that adds to the speculation.

[Tom Troland]

My source also specified 6 year old whiskey, and indicated that Alltech now has an agreement with Brown-Forman to use Woodford Reserve barrels for Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale. So it all adds up except that Pearse Lyons Reserve sure does not taste like scotch. Perhaps those blue barrels were slightly mislabeled. I think my source knows the scoop, but I can't be absolutely sure. Fun to speculate, though. What else is the internet good for? There is so much smoke and mirrors in whiskey marketing (see Chuck's book). Sometimes I find this annoying. But it does lend an element of delicious mystery to whiskey enthusiasts' lives!