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SMOWK
12-03-2010, 17:04
Does anyone know of a good whiskey tree/chart like the one that OscarV has put together for Four Roses? It would be nice to have the same line-up for other distilleries. Listing mashbills, and what products come from them.

Stones
12-08-2010, 00:47
Does anyone know of a good whiskey tree/chart like the one that OscarV has put together for Four Roses? It would be nice to have the same line-up for other distilleries. Listing mashbills, and what products come from them.

Can you show a link to OscarV's post for reference?

OscarV
12-08-2010, 01:11
See post #22

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13638&page=3

Josh
12-08-2010, 04:58
Jeff "Mozilla" listed out the BT mashbills a while back, but I'm too lazy to find the post right now. So from memory...

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt

Brown-Forman
Old Forester- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times
Jack Daniels
Rye- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace
#1, high corn- BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Family Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo
Dickel- George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses
See Oscar's thread above. Also sells whiskey to Diageo that presumably goes into Bulleit and maybe I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna.

Heaven Hill
Rye Bourbon - Heaven Hill, JTS Brown, TW Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI
Precise mashbills unknown, but sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison and Cougar (Australia).

Maker's Mark
Maker's Mark

Tom Moore
Barton- Very Old Barton, all proofs +???
1792- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
??? and ???- Ten High, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Tom Moore
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey
Bourbon- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye from Bernheim distillery- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's 17

*Brand not owned by the distiller.


I'm sure I forgot something but there ya' go. I need coffee:coffeedrinker:

unclebunk
12-08-2010, 06:36
Jeff "Mozilla" listed out the BT mashbills a while back, but I'm too lazy to find the post right now. So from memory...

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt

Brown-Forman
Old Forester- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times
Jack Daniels
Rye- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace
#1, high corn- BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Family Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo
Dickel- George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses
See Oscar's thread above. Also sells whiskey to Diageo that presumably goes into Bulleit and maybe I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna.

Heaven Hill
Rye Bourbon - Heaven Hill, JTS Brown, TW Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI
Precise mashbills unknown, but sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison and Cougar (Australia).

Maker's Mark
Maker's Mark

Tom Moore
Barton- Very Old Barton, all proofs +???
1792- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
??? and ???- Ten High, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Tom Moore
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey
Bourbon- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye from Bernheim distillery- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's 17

*Brand not owned by the distiller.


I'm sure I forgot something but there ya' go. I need coffee:coffeedrinker:

All of this from memory? What are you? Rain Man?:lol:

Josh
12-08-2010, 07:04
All of this from memory? What are you? Rain Man?:lol:

Can't post now, ten minutes to Wapner...

p_elliott
12-08-2010, 07:19
The only thing I noticed you left out was JB rye is also the same rye mash bill for Ri (1)

Josh
12-08-2010, 07:33
The only thing I noticed you left out was JB rye is also the same rye mash bill for Ri (1)

Thanks Paul!

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

SMOWK
12-08-2010, 09:07
All of this from memory? What are you? Rain Man?:lol:

That IS quite impressive!

White Dog
12-08-2010, 22:07
Actually, LDI's mashbills are the only one we can truly figure out, besides Four Roses. Just check the LDI website, which is fascinating.

Josh
12-09-2010, 03:52
Actually, LDI's mashbills are the only one we can truly figure out, besides Four Roses. Just check the LDI website, which is fascinating.

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that. Unfortunately it doesn't say what whiskeys use those mashbills, though. Thanks for the tip! I'll update the "tree".

Josh
12-09-2010, 03:56
Whiskey Tree, 1.2

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman
Old Forester- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times
Jack Daniels
Rye- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace
#1, high corn- BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Family Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo
Dickel- George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses
See Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22). Sells whiskey to Diageo that presumably goes into Bulleit and maybe I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna.

Heaven Hill
Rye Bourbon - Heaven Hill, JTS Brown, TW Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison and Cougar (Australia). For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx

Maker's Mark
Maker's Mark

Tom Moore
Barton- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
??? and ???- Ten High, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Tom Moore
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey
Bourbon- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye

Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye from Bernheim distillery- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's 17

*Brand not owned by the distiller.

p_elliott
12-09-2010, 08:13
The two whiskey trees should be put together and be made a stickey some place, Moderators? Be even better if we had the mash bills to go with them any one?

White Dog
12-09-2010, 10:12
Isn't ETL also the Buffalo Trace #2-lower corn?

And not to get too exhaustive, but Hirsch 21, 22, and 25yr Ryes are all old Medley.

Josh
12-09-2010, 10:43
Isn't ETL also the Buffalo Trace #2-lower corn?

And not to get too exhaustive, but Hirsch 21, 22, and 25yr Ryes are all old Medley.

D'oh, completely forgot about the ETL.

Good point about the Hirsch ryes too. Does anyone have a link to that information, just to confirm?

White Dog
12-09-2010, 14:18
D'oh, completely forgot about the ETL.

Good point about the Hirsch ryes too. Does anyone have a link to that information, just to confirm?

I don't think we'll ever confirm, Josh, but all the OLD Rye that KBD bottled was Medley. (The young stuff is LDI.) At least, that's the word on the street. So the Red Hook, Black Maple 23, Vintage 21 and 23, Hirsch Ryes... Of course, that's just word of mouth. Maybe a certain someone will now tell me it's none of my damn business. :lol: :lol:

Who knows, maybe they have some old Bernheim, as well.

Josh
12-11-2010, 15:02
Whiskey Tree, 1.3

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman
Old Forester- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times
Jack Daniels
Rye- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace
#1, high corn- BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo
Dickel- George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses
See Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22). Sells whiskey to Diageo that presumably goes into Bulleit and maybe I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna.

Heaven Hill
Rye Bourbon - Heaven Hill, JTS Brown, TW Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia) and KBD (?). For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Maker's Mark
Maker's Mark

Tom Moore
Barton- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
??? and ???- Ten High, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Tom Moore
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey
Bourbon- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, (post-Penn) Michter's (?), Black Maple Hill rye, others (?)
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

*Brand not owned by the distiller.

Josh
12-29-2010, 11:53
Updated to reflect Paul's suggestion and stuff I left out

Whiskey Tree, 2.0

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman
Old Forester- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times
Jack Daniels
Rye- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace
#1, high corn- BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo
Dickel- George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill
Rye Bourbon - Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia) and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Maker's Mark
Maker's Mark

Tom Moore
Barton- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
??? and ???- Ten High, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Tom Moore
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey
Bourbon- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's, Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

*Brand not owned by the distiller.

Josh
02-14-2011, 13:31
Now including mashbills! Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 3.0

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Beam
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace
#1, high corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo
Dickel (80/12/8) George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (23/65/12)- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Maker's Mark
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Tom Moore
Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
??? and ???- Ten High, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Tom Moore
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (23/65/12)- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's, Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

*Brand not owned by the distiller.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. We know that this cannot have been correct, even at the time of the first publishing (1995). But which mashbill does that represent? Both are high in corn. Under Bernheim, a mashbill of 86/6/8 is listed for Old Charter, Harper and Pepper. Did BT use this mashbill when it acquired Old Charter? Or (more likely imo) did it use one it was already using for Eagle Rare and Benchmark and would later use for BT?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. Did HH and BT continue using that mashbill when they acquired their wheat bourbon brands or did they use a different one? The former seems most likely to me. Did they acquire S-W yeast as well?

Anyway, I'm sure the answer to some of these questions are in Bourbon, Straight but it is in a box in the garage presently.:hot:

White Dog
02-14-2011, 14:28
This is awesome, Josh.

So HH and WT have the same mashbill for both Bourbon and Rye? Weird.

SMOWK
02-14-2011, 14:39
Alright Josh! Yet another interesting chart that comes out of SB.com. This one serves as somewhat of a guide to what kind of mashbill you prefer. Now if I could only figure out what day of the month I prefer that mashbill, I would be that much closer to knowing what to pour, and when to pour it.

Parkersback
02-14-2011, 14:49
Does Dant belong in Heaven Hill, Rye Bourbon category?

nblair
02-14-2011, 15:51
Amazing job, Josh. That has to be the most extensive list of bourbon info I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure you could ask someone to delete your posts and charge people for a spreadsheet of it...

Did you not include the Four Roses percentages because they were already included in Oscar's Four Roses post? Or are you waiting to include them in Whiskey Tree 4.0 - Bigger, Faster, Stronger?

Josh
02-14-2011, 16:10
Thanks for the kind words everybody!


This is awesome, Josh.

So HH and WT have the same mashbill for both Bourbon and Rye? Weird.

Yeah it is odd, but that's what the book says. It's worth noting that the WT Rye mashbill is listed as approximate, though.


Does Dant belong in Heaven Hill, Rye Bourbon category?

Yes, I included that among the "et al" but now that you mention it, it would be helpful to put Dant in there since it's still a widely distributed line. It will be in the next revision.


Amazing job, Josh. That has to be the most extensive list of bourbon info I've ever seen. I'm pretty sure you could ask someone to delete your posts and charge people for a spreadsheet of it...

Did you not include the Four Roses percentages because they were already included in Oscar's Four Roses post? Or are you waiting to include them in Whiskey Tree 4.0 - Bigger, Faster, Stronger?

I didn't include them for two reasons:
1) Out of deference for Oscar and all his hard work in that thread. The man brings me BBQ, I have to give him props.
2) Sheer laziness, the same reason I didn't list out the LDI mashbills.:grin:

I'm glad everybody's enjoying this project! It's nice to put my brain to use doing something other than sorting diapers.

Parkersback
02-14-2011, 16:29
Hey, Josh, it dawns on me that the first thing I said about this was trying to correct something. But my main thoughts about it is how great it is, and thanks for your work. It's super informative, and fun to look at, to boot.

Josh
02-14-2011, 17:00
Hey, Josh, it dawns on me that the first thing I said about this was trying to correct something. But my main thoughts about it is how great it is, and thanks for your work. It's super informative, and fun to look at, to boot.

No worries. Glad you enjoy it and if you notice anything else in need of correction please speak up!:grin:

CaptainQ
02-14-2011, 17:03
Great work Josh! :thankyousign:

cowdery
02-15-2011, 10:04
Great work, Josh.

I don't know if HH changed their rye-recipe bourbon mash bill when they moved to Bernheim, or if Gary got the old one wrong, but from Craig Beam pretty recently I got the following: Mash is 78% corn, 12% malt, 10% rye. Could have changed due to high prices for malt and rye. Sorry I didn't ask about the OF mashbill.

Also, 18% of the volume in the mash cooker is backset.

I know that the rye mash bill and wheat mash bill are both 51% rye/wheat respectively, so the mash bill is most likely 51% rye/wheat, 37% corn, 12% malt.

Regarding the yeast HH uses at Bernheim, when HH took over Bernheim was using, in dry form, what Craig Beam calls "Schenley yeast." They didn't like it so they tried what Red Star was offering as distiller's yeast. They didn't like that either, so they had Red Star work up a dry version of the Beam yeast they had been using in jug form at Bardstown. They've been using that since fall of 1999.

As for whatever happened to the yeast that was used at SW, I don't know. Ed Foote might know.

"Beams and Yeast" is the subject of the main story in the new issue of The Bourbon Country Reader, which should go into the mail within the next 24 hours. Subscription information is here (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com/page9.html).

"box in the garage" :(

Gillman
02-15-2011, 11:06
Very good, Josh, indeed. Just some minor points/observations.

Looking at Tom Moore, is there any reason to think the VOB mashbill would not apply to all the lesser-known brands (e.g. Colonel Lee, Kentucky Tavern, Kentucky Gentleman except its blend iteration, etc.) except of course 1792 which has higher barley malt as you noted? I am assuming that nothing would have changed in this regard after the purchase by Sazerac Brands.

Also, in reference to Oscar's excellent work to which you referred (and I realize it's not meant to be complete), were each of the 10 bourbons not released serially as single barrel bourbons by a retailer in Kentucky, Party Source was it? This just from memory. I know it was announced that something like this would be done, was the program completed and does anyone have all ten?

Gary

Special Reserve
02-15-2011, 16:50
Damn Josh, I thought as a newish dad you'd be busy with other duties. What an effort. Hope life is good.

Will

Josh
02-15-2011, 19:27
Great work, Josh.

I don't know if HH changed their rye-recipe bourbon mash bill when they moved to Bernheim, or if Gary got the old one wrong, but from Craig Beam pretty recently I got the following: Mash is 78% corn, 12% malt, 10% rye. Could have changed due to high prices for malt and rye. Sorry I didn't ask about the OF mashbill.

Also, 18% of the volume in the mash cooker is backset.

I know that the rye mash bill and wheat mash bill are both 51% rye/wheat respectively, so the mash bill is most likely 51% rye/wheat, 37% corn, 12% malt.

Regarding the yeast HH uses at Bernheim, when HH took over Bernheim was using, in dry form, what Craig Beam calls "Schenley yeast." They didn't like it so they tried what Red Star was offering as distiller's yeast. They didn't like that either, so they had Red Star work up a dry version of the Beam yeast they had been using in jug form at Bardstown. They've been using that since fall of 1999.

As for whatever happened to the yeast that was used at SW, I don't know. Ed Foote might know.

"Beams and Yeast" is the subject of the main story in the new issue of The Bourbon Country Reader, which should go into the mail within the next 24 hours. Subscription information is here (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com/page9.html).

"box in the garage" :(

Thanks for the info! It will go into the next update. I'm trying to figure out a way to work yeast into the tree. Looking forward to the next BCR! Assuming I haven't let my subscription lapse...:bigeyes:

Sadly, most of my books are in boxes in the garage. This happened when the study (aka the spare bedroom) became the baby's room. I was sure I had Bourbon, Straight on one of the two surviving bookcases, but when I went to look for it, it wasn't there. The situation will be rectified shortly! At least it has a lot of bourbon to keep it company out there. :drinking:


Very good, Josh, indeed. Just some minor points/observations.

Looking at Tom Moore, is there any reason to think the VOB mashbill would not apply to all the lesser-known brands (e.g. Colonel Lee, Kentucky Tavern, Kentucky Gentleman except its blend iteration, etc.) except of course 1792 which has higher barley malt as you noted? I am assuming that nothing would have changed in this regard after the purchase by Sazerac Brands.

Also, in reference to Oscar's excellent work to which you referred (and I realize it's not meant to be complete), were each of the 10 bourbons not released serially as single barrel bourbons by a retailer in Kentucky, Party Source was it? This just from memory. I know it was announced that something like this would be done, was the program completed and does anyone have all ten?

Gary

I had assumed the same thing about Tom Moore, until John started this thread (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14860). John said

[Ken] Pierce also said:

Barton uses four different bourbon mash bills but he wouldn't reveal their content or which products they are used in.

He insisted that "none of their boubon products" will change under Sazerac's ownership. He did say that their production has increased significantly since the acquisition.

Which mashbills are used for which? It's a puzzle. Some have to be sharing a mashbill, but which ones?

To my knowledge, at the very least, Party Source and Binny's have carried all ten 4R recipes. I believe the series was completed in the fall of last year with the release of the idosyncratic F yeast recipes.


Damn Josh, I thought as a newish dad you'd be busy with other duties. What an effort. Hope life is good.

Will

Thanks Will and everybody else! Life is indeed good. As a newish dad I need to keep sane. I don't always do a good job of it, but stuff like this helps!

Gillman
02-15-2011, 19:36
Thanks Josh, I did recall something about that discussion, but I assumed that the non-VOB, non-1792 mashbills were experimental including the wheated one mentioned. It would surprise me they would go the trouble of using 4 bourbon mashbills for their lines, since the brands other than VOB and 1792 are price brands, but perhaps they do, or at least, your question marks do make sense in that regard. Good work.

Gary

Josh
02-16-2011, 05:38
Thanks Josh, I did recall something about that discussion, but I assumed that the non-VOB, non-1792 mashbills were experimental including the wheated one mentioned. It would surprise me they would go the trouble of using 4 bourbon mashbills for their lines, since the brands other than VOB and 1792 are price brands, but perhaps they do, or at least, your question marks do make sense in that regard. Good work.

Gary

Excellent point. As much as I love VOB, I'm not familiar enough with the other brands they sell to have an informed opinion on that question. Hopefully I can pick up some small bottles in Kentucky in April. Anyway, I'll take another look at the Tom Moore section and see if I can make it better reflect that amibiguity.

As for Tom Moore BiB, I have never had it or even seen it on the shelf. I WOULD LOVE TO GET MY HANDS ON SOME. *hint hint hint*

Special Reserve
02-16-2011, 16:27
As a newish dad I need to keep sane. I don't always do a good job of it, but stuff like this helps!

I guess I forgot about that part over the past quarter century.

Good to hear that life is good.

RickF
02-24-2011, 11:52
Is the Cabin Still mash bill the same as Old Fitz and Rebel Yell?

squire
02-24-2011, 16:29
Originally, yes, but that was years ago when they were all made by Stizel-Weller. Cabin Still and Fitzgerald are now owned and made by Heaven Hill. Rebel Yell is a brand owned by Luxco using sourced whisky which may also be made by Heaven Hill

squire
02-24-2011, 16:32
Hit the wrong button. If all three are made by Heaven Hill it stands to reason they share the same mash bill, but Luxco can use whisky from any source and still label it Rebel Yell.

trumpstylz
02-25-2011, 04:08
So VOB and 1792 have a different mashbill?

Josh
02-25-2011, 08:23
Hit the wrong button. If all three are made by Heaven Hill it stands to reason they share the same mash bill, but Luxco can use whisky from any source and still label it Rebel Yell.

True, but
A. The RY labels say "Louisville"
2) To my knowledge, BT and MM (the only other Kentucky distilleries making wheaters on a large scale) do little, if any, selling of bulk whiskey to NDPs like Luxco. Heaven Hill does.
III. Luxco and its predessor David Sherman Co. have a long-standing relationship with Heaven Hill.


So VOB and 1792 have a different mashbill?

Yes, according to Pam Gover at Tom Moore last spring when I was on the tour, and others who have confirmed the same thing, and that it is a high-barley recipe.

jcg9779
03-03-2011, 17:01
This is great, Josh...thanks!

Jack

dbk
03-03-2011, 17:24
Josh, I just want to echo others' sentiments here: this is really, really great work! You have no idea how often I reference your "tree." Thanks!

Josh
03-03-2011, 19:48
Thanks, I appreciate it. I hope to be able to update it again soon!

bonneamie
03-06-2011, 14:29
Awesome work Josh. Thank you!! :toast:

chefnash51
03-07-2011, 06:26
:coffeedrinker: Fantastic info , thanks Josh!

cowdery
03-07-2011, 18:28
Hey, Josh. Here's something else to work on. Barrel char. I'll start. Wild Turkey uses #4.

OscarV
03-08-2011, 13:16
Hey, Josh. Here's something else to work on. Barrel char. I'll start. Wild Turkey uses #4.

Mind if I butt in Josh?

Char #3;
Buffalo Trace
Tom Moore
Old Forester
Heaven Hill
Woodford Reserve
Maker's Mark
George Dickel
Jack Daniels

Char #3.5
Four Roses

Char #4
Jim Beam
Wild Turkey

As Jimmey Russell said, " We use a heavy char for our Wild Turkey bourbon. It's called 'The Heavy Char'."

nblair
03-08-2011, 15:03
Oscar, I had also read that Buffalo Trace used a #3 or 3.5 char. However, while watching the BT Oral History with Ronnie Eddins and Nelson Riddle, they mention that Buffalo Trace moved to #4 char. I assume that happened in the last few years.

squire
03-08-2011, 15:15
Good work Josh, this sort of information is useful to all but especially new members, or those just visiting.

Josh
03-08-2011, 17:06
Thanks again everybody. I'll try and update this week. Some physical problems are currently limiting my interwebs activities. Hopefully things will shape up later this week.

cowdery
03-09-2011, 12:29
Thanks again everybody. I'll try and update this week. Some physical problems are currently limiting my interwebs activities. Hopefully things will shape up later this week.

Did your hands turn into lobster claws again?

Josh
03-09-2011, 16:12
Did your hands turn into lobster claws again?

More or less. Saw the rheumatologist today and it looks like some form of inflammatory arthritis. Good thing I don't use my hands for blogging or being a stay-at-home dad. :skep:

cowdery
03-09-2011, 16:26
Bummer. Probably can't treat it with bourbon either.

Have you tried speech recognition software?

Josh
03-09-2011, 16:31
Bummer. Probably can't treat it with bourbon either.

Have you tried speech recognition software?

I'll definately look into it. Thanks for the tip!

p_elliott
03-10-2011, 07:11
More or less. Saw the rheumatologist today and it looks like some form of inflammatory arthritis. Good thing I don't use my hands for blogging or being a stay-at-home dad. :skep:

Damn Josh that sucks I hope they can find something to help you out with this. Your way to young to be having these problems.

CorvallisCracker
03-10-2011, 11:44
Your way to young to be having these problems.

Aren't we all?

Seriously, get well soon!

Josh
06-21-2011, 13:46
Hope I didn't forget any of the suggestions made over that last few months.

Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 4

Now with cooperage information!

Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8) George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.). Also produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Tom Moore, #3 char, Independent Stave
Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's, Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle, Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

*Brand not owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information. Regan & Regan list both ryes at 23/65/12.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

etohchem
06-22-2011, 05:44
Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee, Hancock, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms, Virginia Gentleman (no longer produced), Bowman Single Barrel
[

I have it on pretty good authority that Virginia Gentleman IS still being produced and sold, never went out of production. "the Fox" 90 proof is no longer bottled but there are several fine bourbons under theASB label, Bowman brothers small batch (90 proof), John Bowman single barrel (100 proof) and Abraham Bowman (limited/special releases)

Etohchem

p_elliott
06-22-2011, 06:50
I have it on pretty good authority that Virginia Gentleman IS still being produced and sold, never went out of production. "the Fox" 90 proof is no longer bottled but there are several fine bourbons under theASB label, Bowman brothers small batch (90 proof), John Bowman single barrel (100 proof) and Abraham Bowman (limited/special releases)

Etohchem

Seeing how your the new Master Distiller at ASB maybe you could do something about bringing the Fox back.

G.H.Adams
06-22-2011, 20:48
I'll second that request. I am enjoying the Bowman Rye and looking forward to trying the others that TPS has brought in.

White Dog
06-23-2011, 09:38
Just awesome, Josh.

This tree is beyond essential.

Moderators, may we please sticky??:cool: :cool:

Josh
06-23-2011, 10:36
I have it on pretty good authority that Virginia Gentleman IS still being produced and sold, never went out of production. "the Fox" 90 proof is no longer bottled but there are several fine bourbons under theASB label, Bowman brothers small batch (90 proof), John Bowman single barrel (100 proof) and Abraham Bowman (limited/special releases)

Etohchem

I knew I forgot something! Thanks for the correction. I loved the bottle of the Single Barrel I got a year or so ago. Great stuff. But I do miss the Fox!

cowdery
06-30-2011, 11:43
I found my notes from a 2007 interview with Eddie Russell in which he told me the mash bill for Wild Turkey Rye is 51% rye.

He also told me they make rye three to four days a year. That was almost four years ago, so they may be up to five by now. They age it on the middle floors of the warehouses.

StraightBoston
06-30-2011, 12:49
I have it on pretty good authority

This made me smile. Congratulations Truman!

Bourbon Boiler
09-25-2011, 13:38
Is the Russell's Reserve Rye a blend of three different ages of WT Rye in the same respect that the bourbon is? That is, a blend of specifically selected barrels of the same mashbill, same char, only different lengths of time in the warehouse(s).

p_elliott
09-26-2011, 07:35
Is the Russell's Reserve Rye a blend of three different ages of WT Rye in the same respect that the bourbon is? That is, a blend of specifically selected barrels of the same mashbill, same char, only different lengths of time in the warehouse(s).

The RR rye is 6 years old all of it. Your confusing the RR Bourbon which is all 10 yrs old with Rare Breed.

StraightNoChaser
09-26-2011, 08:42
This is an invaluable resource. Now if only someone would format it to make for easier absorption!

SMOWK
09-26-2011, 13:13
This is an invaluable resource. Now if only someone would format it to make for easier absorption!

Maybe something like this?

http://www.mediafire.com/?w6tby45z9n4lb55

timd
09-26-2011, 15:44
This is an invaluable resource. Now if only someone would format it to make for easier absorption!
I'm working on a graphical approach... but not moving super fast.

Bourbon Boiler
09-26-2011, 16:53
The RR rye is 6 years old all of it. Your confusing the RR Bourbon which is all 10 yrs old with Rare Breed.

Thanks for the clarification.

Josh
09-29-2011, 10:48
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 4.1


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave
Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman, Bowman Bourbons
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)


Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's, Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig and Jefferson's Rye.

*Brand(s) not owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

OK, been away from this for a while, so I assume a forgot a bunch of stuff discussed since then. Let me know!

White Dog
10-01-2011, 21:32
As always, Josh, outstanding!
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

How about EH Taylor being listed under BT High Corn, and Stephen Foster under HH's Rye group?

Josh
10-02-2011, 06:17
As always, Josh, outstanding!
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

How about EH Taylor being listed under BT High Corn, and Stephen Foster under HH's Rye group?
Knew I missed something! I'll fix it this afternoon.

Josh
10-03-2011, 09:17
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 4.2


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave
Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman, Bowman Bourbons
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig and Jefferson's Rye.

*Brand(s) not owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! post it here so it can be corrected.

p_elliott
10-03-2011, 09:55
How do we know that the E H Taylor is the high corn / low rye mash bill? This is a different bourbon every year. One year it's going to made with white corn. Not trying to ruffle any feathers just asking.

Josh
10-03-2011, 13:02
How do we know that the E H Taylor is the high corn / low rye mash bill? This is a different bourbon every year. One year it's going to made with white corn. Not trying to ruffle any feathers just asking.

No feathers ruffled.

In one of the Col. E.H. Taylor threads, it is stated by Chuck and others, I believe, that the new Taylors will all be #1 b/c that's Sazerac's own mashbill and the other one, #2, is only (expect for Bowman and the White Dog #2?) used for brands owned by Age International.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15460&page=15

ethangsmith
12-18-2011, 16:06
Speaking of ruffled feathers----

Fighting Cock is a product of Heaven Hill and is advertised to have more rye for that extra kick- even says so on the FC website. So is FC its own mashbill or, like Buffalo Trace, does Heaven Hill have a "low rye content" and "high rye content" bourbon mashbill????

Josh
12-18-2011, 16:12
Speaking of ruffled feathers----

Fighting Cock is a product of Heaven Hill and is advertised to have more rye for that extra kick- even says so on the FC website. So is FC its own mashbill or, like Buffalo Trace, does Heaven Hill have a "low rye content" and "high rye content" bourbon mashbill????

That's something I've been thinking about lately myself. The Heaven Hill line seems to have more rye flavor than Evan Williams or Elijah Craig too. But nobody has ever offered any evidence that they have two mashbills.

ethangsmith
12-18-2011, 17:44
I have a bottle of the Old Heaven Hill BIB and HH Old Style Bourbon in 80pf form and both seem to have a good chunk of rye in them. The OHH BIB is super peppery and when drank right next to Mellow Corn (same proof, but with no rye), you get a strong rye flavor in the OHH BIB. I agree with your thinking on Evan Williams and Elijah Craig too. There does not seem to be much rye flavor with them at all. I did a side-by-side tasting of Fighting Cock and Wild Turkey 101 bourbon and there is little difference. The heavy rye presence is the same between the two. There almost has to be at least 2 different mashbills at HH.

Josh
12-18-2011, 17:55
I have a bottle of the Old Heaven Hill BIB and HH Old Style Bourbon in 80pf form and both seem to have a good chunk of rye in them. The OHH BIB is super peppery and when drank right next to Mellow Corn (same proof, but with no rye), you get a strong rye flavor in the OHH BIB. I agree with your thinking on Evan Williams and Elijah Craig too. There does not seem to be much rye flavor with them at all. I did a side-by-side tasting of Fighting Cock and Wild Turkey 101 bourbon and there is little difference. The heavy rye presence is the same between the two. There almost has to be at least 2 different mashbills at HH.

In the absence of any evidence that there are multiple rye bourbon mashbills, I think we have to chalk it up to barrel selection, imo the second most neglected variant in why whiskey tastes how it does. A lot of magic goes on in a barrel and it's not always quantifiable.

ethangsmith
12-18-2011, 18:32
A good point. It's amazing to see the difference proof and aging do to a product. Take for instance Pikesville rye versus Rittenhouse BIB rye. Same rye, but totally different profiles. It's just going to be really hard for me to think that Fighting Cock is just 6yo 103 proof Evan Williams. Odd.

White Dog
12-18-2011, 19:33
I just went to the FC site.

It states, "Most Bourbon is made from a grain mixture of corn, barley and wheat. We use Rye instead of wheat to give Fighting Cock a little extra kick."

"Most Bourbon..." Shame on you, Heaven Hill. You know that this is a blatant lie. Would any of the HH employees who visit and post on SB care to comment on this?

ethangsmith
12-18-2011, 19:54
Weird. I wonder why they made that claim, which is obviously incorrect.

White Dog
12-18-2011, 20:02
Weird. I wonder why they made that claim, which is obviously incorrect.

C'mon Ethan. When has the Kentucky Bourbon industry actually tried to educate the consumer??:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ethangsmith
12-18-2011, 21:12
Ha. Too true. I think it's sort of fun to speculate at certain things. Others, not so much.

cowdery
12-18-2011, 22:49
Not so much a "blatant lie" as blatantly stupid. Really starting to wonder about the bile, White Dog. If you get so angry about this, how much outrage can you have left for real crimes?

And they call me crotchety.

cowdery
12-18-2011, 22:59
Speaking of ruffled feathers----

Fighting Cock is a product of Heaven Hill and is advertised to have more rye for that extra kick- even says so on the FC website. So is FC its own mashbill or, like Buffalo Trace, does Heaven Hill have a "low rye content" and "high rye content" bourbon mashbill????

But that isn't what it says at all. It says nothing about 'more rye." Where do they say, or imply, that Fighting Cock has more rye than Evan Williams or Elijah Craig?

ethangsmith
12-19-2011, 04:42
I thought at one time the website had it worded that they use more rye for extra kick. Maybe I was mistaken.

jcg9779
01-03-2012, 12:44
I just went to the FC site.

It states, "Most Bourbon is made from a grain mixture of corn, barley and wheat. We use Rye instead of wheat to give Fighting Cock a little extra kick."

"Most Bourbon..." Shame on you, Heaven Hill. You know that this is a blatant lie. Would any of the HH employees who visit and post on SB care to comment on this?


Weird. I wonder why they made that claim, which is obviously incorrect.

Product differentiation. Marketing 101, whether it's truthful or not.

clingman71
02-04-2012, 10:13
I'd be intersted in knowing the % in wheated recipes from HH and BT. How do they compare to Maker's? I would assume through the Old Fitz and Weller recipes going back to S/W and then onto Bernheim before splitting HH & BT that the mashbills are the same. The whiskies however, are not. This would be a good comparison of barrels and aging. The wild card variable would be the yeast. This has been mentioned on here before, but with no real definitive answer. When S/W stopped distilling, and Bernheim began, was the S/W yeast taken to Bernheim? When the Bernheim distillery changed hands to HH, what yeast was used? Does HH use the S/W Bernheim yeast for the wheaters and their own HH yeast for the others? Or, does HH use one yeast for everything? When Bernheim was distilling for HH after the fire, but before the sale, which yeast was being used? DoesBT use one yeast for everything?

The Maker's mashbill has to be similar, showing what age can do. There is a lot of difference between 5? yr old Maker's and 7 yr old WSR.

I've read some of the Four Roses comments on rye vs wheat.Regardless of their philosophy, I would love to see what their 5 yeast strains could do for a wheated mashbill. It would seem to me that with all the talk of new wheaters vs old SW, and the griping about nothing being as good, that Four Roses versatility would lend them to being able to recreate almost any flavor profile.

Brisko
02-06-2012, 05:12
According to what I've read from various sources, Bill Samuels got the Maker's recipe from Pappy, for what it's worth.

chasking
02-07-2012, 20:28
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:
. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.
Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.

White Dog
02-07-2012, 21:03
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:
. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.
Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.

I like Murray's Bible and I keep a copy in my bathroom. That said, in his 2011 version when discussing Pappy 15 he states "classic corn-rye whiskey with a bit of an edge." Page 300. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Josh
02-08-2012, 06:10
I'd be intersted in knowing the % in wheated recipes from HH and BT. How do they compare to Maker's? ...When S/W stopped distilling, and Bernheim began, was the S/W yeast taken to Bernheim? When the Bernheim distillery changed hands to HH, what yeast was used? Does HH use the S/W Bernheim yeast for the wheaters and their own HH yeast for the others? Or, does HH use one yeast for everything? When Bernheim was distilling for HH after the fire, but before the sale, which yeast was being used? DoesBT use one yeast for everything?


According to what I've read from various sources, Bill Samuels got the Maker's recipe from Pappy, for what it's worth.

That's my impression too, that all the wheaters have the same mashbill. The yeast question is an interesting one. Chuck suggested above that Ed Foote might know what happened to the S-W yeast after S-W stopped distilling. I don't really have the time to pursue that question right now, but if anyone else would like to, go for it!

Josh
02-08-2012, 06:27
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:
. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.


I like Murray's Bible and I keep a copy in my bathroom. That said, in his 2011 version when discussing Pappy 15 he states "classic corn-rye whiskey with a bit of an edge." Page 300. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

If anyone finds another source that supports the claim that Beam OO is 61% rye I'll change the tree to reflect that. He may have gotten the information from OO's previous producer and forgot to update it. In a book that sweeping, some errors are bound to get in.

T Comp
02-08-2012, 06:32
Something on here nagged at me. It's stated in the tree, and at other places on SB, that there's only one Beam rye mashbill, but I knew I'd read or heard somewhere that Beam rye and Old Overholt were different, and I finally found the source: Jim Murray, in his book The Complete Guide to Whiskey (Triumph 1997), states:
. . . Jim Beam's is 51 percent rye. The big boy is Old Overholt with an impressive 61 percent rye.Now, that was at least 15 years ago, but Old Overholt was established as a Beam product at that point, and he must have gotten that information from somewhere.


Interesting point...but even better...following on the heels of, CrispyCritter, another Chicago area member and his first post in 4 years, now comes chasking after a 3 year hiatus. Great to see you guys back and try to make it to the South Loop Binny's on 3/10/12.

Josh
02-13-2012, 10:10
OK so regarding the Bowman mashbill, I'm a bit confused. Based on this post from Mozilla, I listed it as BT mashbill #2, same as AAA, ETL, et al.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=135324&postcount=12

But the more I think about it the less it makes sense. Sazerac owns Bowman. The only rye bourbon mashbill Saz uses for its own products is BT mashbill #1, so it would seem natural that they would send that one to Bowman for redistillation and aging.

Anybody else have any thoughts or information? Especially if your name is Truman...

CorvallisCracker
02-13-2012, 10:44
I like Murray's Bible and I keep a copy in my bathroom.

How many pages are left?

BradleyC
02-13-2012, 11:24
OK so regarding the Bowman mashbill, I'm a bit confused. Based on this post from Mozilla, I listed it as BT mashbill #2, same as AAA, ETL, et al.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=135324&postcount=12

But the more I think about it the less it makes sense. Sazerac owns Bowman. The only rye bourbon mashbill Saz uses for its own products is BT mashbill #1, so it would seem natural that they would send that one to Bowman for redistillation and aging.

Anybody else have any thoughts or information? Especially if your name is Truman...

My name isn't Truman but as applies to the 18 year bottle I found this:

" At 18 years old, this bourbon pre-dates the purchase of Bowman by Buffalo Trace so where this bourbon came from is a bit of a mystery"

I guess the 18 year bottling could be a completely different distillate from the regular Bowman line. Call me crazy but I thought I had read on PS' website something about being mashbill #2.

Bourbon Boiler
02-13-2012, 18:37
How many pages are left?

Funny. A little mean, but very funny.:slappin:

Parkersback
02-13-2012, 19:22
Forgive me if this has been addressed in this thread--I have basically read it as it was posted, but I did not wade through just now to check--but Jim Beam implies that the yeast for Baker's is unique to Baker's. Whether that is true or not, I do not know.

I'm not sure that really changes the mashbill, but under 4Roses, mention is made of their various yeast.

CorvallisCracker
02-14-2012, 11:17
Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill- OGD, Basil Hayden
See this post. (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45920&postcount=7) Third paragraph.

Credible? You decide.



LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)


Obsolete link.

Replaced by this one (http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/) on the MGP (new owners) site.

The percentage of rye is indicated for the Rye Whiskey, but for the three bourbons it would appear that the figure given is for the percentage that is not corn, which suggests that whoever authored the page is not what you'd call bourbon knowledgeable.

Fortunately the listed whiskeys link to pages which give the actual mash bill.


Some interesting looking stuff down under Alcohol - Food Grade Industrial. The SDA-29 sounds tasty...(Homer Simpson voice)...mmmm....acetaldehyde....

Josh
02-15-2012, 12:44
See this post. (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45920&postcount=7) Third paragraph.

Credible? You decide.

It's second hand from a guy who's written a book, produced a movie, and written a lot of a newsletters on the subject and the guy he got it from would have known what he was talking about.

So it's not 100% water-tight, but it's much better than what we currently have, which is squat.




Obsolete link.

Replaced by this one (http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/) on the MGP (new owners) site.

The percentage of rye is indicated for the Rye Whiskey, but for the three bourbons it would appear that the figure given is for the percentage that is not corn, which suggests that whoever authored the page is not what you'd call bourbon knowledgeable.


Thanks for the updates! I'll get the tree in line at the earliest opportunity.

cowdery
02-15-2012, 12:53
I know from numerous confirmations, from Fred Noe and other Beam insiders, that Beam makes one rye mash bill.

And if you read between the lines on the Baker's label, it really just describes the Beam yeast, it doesn't say only Baker's uses it. Beam has two yeasts but the other one is the Old Grand-Dad yeast, used for Old Grand-Dad and Basil Hayden's.

I've made it a point to check with all of the distillers who make rye on the mash bill question and all have confirmed that they are right at 51%. The exception, of course, is LDI.

Smithford
02-15-2012, 17:04
I've made it a point to check with all of the distillers who make rye on the mash bill question and all have confirmed that they are right at 51%. The exception, of course, is LDI.
There's an ancient thread (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4057) in the archives here with a post by Bushido claiming different rye percentages across various producers (Overholt at 61%, WT at 55%, etc...). That info has been officially debunked then?

p.s. Yes, that's what I do for fun - searching the archives here is almost as entertaining as dusty hunting.

Josh
02-15-2012, 19:04
There's an ancient thread (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4057) in the archives here with a post by Bushido claiming different rye percentages across various producers (Overholt at 61%, WT at 55%, etc...). That info has been officially debunked then?

p.s. Yes, that's what I do for fun - searching the archives here is almost as entertaining as dusty hunting.

I would say yes. His source seems to be the same.

cowdery
02-16-2012, 11:06
There's a lot of "I heard" out there. Also, I love Jim Murray, he's the hardest working man in whiskey writing, but he does make statements that seem drawn only from his vivid imagination, reviewing at times products that do not exist, for example.

I keep asking distillers the rye mash bill question and keep getting the same answer, which is supported by the explanation. Rye is expensive (twice the cost of corn) and a little goes a long way, so 51% gives you plenty of rye flavor. Most distillers also believe corn is needed to give the beverage a back bone. Obviously, the people who like the 95% to 100% flavoring whiskeys that have been released differ, but I sometimes have that reaction, i.e., I miss the corn.

ethangsmith
02-18-2012, 13:03
I don't know if "historical" mashbills are being added to the whiskey tree yet, but I can tell you Michter's from Schaefferstown used:

50% corn
38% rye
12% barley malt

to make Michter's Pot Still Whiskey. As for the barrels, all I have seen have a pretty heavy char inside them. I'm not sure of the bourbon, rye, and corn mashbills, but I could ask Dick about them next time I see him.

cowdery
02-19-2012, 20:16
I don't know if "historical" mashbills are being added to the whiskey tree yet, but I can tell you Michter's from Schaefferstown used:

50% corn
38% rye
12% barley malt

to make Michter's Pot Still Whiskey. As for the barrels, all I have seen have a pretty heavy char inside them. I'm not sure of the bourbon, rye, and corn mashbills, but I could ask Dick about them next time I see him.

What's your source? Dick Stoll?

ethangsmith
02-20-2012, 03:29
Yes. Dick had told me that on a few different occasions. He also told me that Michter's was generally aged in re-used barrels as well.

cowdery
02-20-2012, 15:12
Yes. Dick had told me that on a few different occasions. He also told me that Michter's was generally aged in re-used barrels as well.

Yes, I just learned that from Sam, although I got the impression from him that they used a combination of new and used barrels. Having tasted it, that seems credible. It tasted too rich to be all-used, although I was probably tasting whiskey that was older than normal too, bottled as it was toward the end of their run.

Josh
02-20-2012, 15:24
I don't know if "historical" mashbills are being added to the whiskey tree yet, but I can tell you Michter's from Schaefferstown used:

50% corn
38% rye
12% barley malt

to make Michter's Pot Still Whiskey. As for the barrels, all I have seen have a pretty heavy char inside them. I'm not sure of the bourbon, rye, and corn mashbills, but I could ask Dick about them next time I see him.

I think the problem with incorporating the mashbills of dusties is that it could spiral into a listing of every bourbon mashbill ever made. It's more practical to stick with bourbons in current production.

HOWEVER, now that you've posted it here, it's forever in this thread. Which I think is pretty cool.

dgonano
02-20-2012, 16:14
And Michters was called "Pennsylvania Sour Mash Whiskey". There was no grain 51% or higher. There was no claim of being a "Straight Whiskey". So used barrels would make sense. They wanted the whiskey to be naturally smoother. They also had hopes their brand would compete with JD as a non-bourbon whiskey.

dgonano
02-20-2012, 16:16
BTW Josh, a very nice comprehensive list. One you probably are sorry to have started.

ethangsmith
02-20-2012, 16:34
Correct. It was a mix of new and used, but the bulk of it was in used cooperage. It was so they could make Michter's less expensive and sell more, but unfortunately it didn't work so well anyway. My guess is that the heavy char in the barrels allowed them to be reused easily and still impart a nice oak and char flavor to the Michter's "pot still" whiskey. That, and since they weren't selling much, the 6 years probably turned into 10 or more pretty quickly! I know Dick said they would often be barreling 15 to 20 year old bourbons and ryes because they were "left over stock." If only I could get my hands on bottles of that stuff!

cowdery
02-21-2012, 00:06
Correct. It was a mix of new and used, but the bulk of it was in used cooperage. It was so they could make Michter's less expensive and sell more, but unfortunately it didn't work so well anyway. My guess is that the heavy char in the barrels allowed them to be reused easily and still impart a nice oak and char flavor to the Michter's "pot still" whiskey. That, and since they weren't selling much, the 6 years probably turned into 10 or more pretty quickly! I know Dick said they would often be barreling 15 to 20 year old bourbons and ryes because they were "left over stock." If only I could get my hands on bottles of that stuff!

Has he told you what their bourbon and rye mash bills were?

ethangsmith
02-21-2012, 03:27
Not yet. I'll get that information the next time I talk to him. He did say they had one bourbon mashbill and 2 rye mashbills- One being for Sam Thompson (which had a higher percentage of rye grain) and the other being their standard mashbill for all other rye products.

White Dog
04-06-2012, 19:41
Bumpidy Bump Bump.

On the Malt Advocate's blog they're stating that the now-live Willett Distillery is mashing Bourbon with 72%Corn, 13%Rye, and 15%Barley.

Seems like a crazy-high percentage of Barley, but supposedly it's the old Willett Family recipe. Very cool.

ethangsmith
04-06-2012, 20:24
Is Wild Turkey's mashbill really that high in corn? I thought it was a high rye content bourbon like OGD. By the most recent chart, it looks like Old Forester would be the highest rye content bourbon on the list, which I find hard to believe.

Josh
04-25-2012, 10:16
Is Wild Turkey's mashbill really that high in corn? I thought it was a high rye content bourbon like OGD. By the most recent chart, it looks like Old Forester would be the highest rye content bourbon on the list, which I find hard to believe.

I always considered Wild Turkey to be high rye too, but all the evidence I've been able to find contradicts that.

Josh
04-25-2012, 10:19
Bumpidy Bump Bump.

On the Malt Advocate's blog they're stating that the now-live Willett Distillery is mashing Bourbon with 72%Corn, 13%Rye, and 15%Barley.

Seems like a crazy-high percentage of Barley, but supposedly it's the old Willett Family recipe. Very cool.

That's odd. 1792 has a higher that average barley percentage according to reports and it's pretty dull IMO. Maybe KBD will have better luck.

ANYWAY, on to updating.

Josh
04-25-2012, 10:47
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.0


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

sob0728
04-25-2012, 11:47
Under the Beam ryes you can now add Knob Creek Rye.

The Whiskey Tree kicks ass.

Josh
04-25-2012, 12:15
Under the Beam ryes you can now add Knob Creek Rye.

The Whiskey Tree kicks ass.

Thanks! Corrected.

ethangsmith
04-25-2012, 15:08
As for the WT thing, that really surprises me. I thought I had even read some literature or something from WT at one point mentioning the higher rye percentage. It even tastes like it has quite a bit more rye in it than other bourbons. Weird.

Josh
04-25-2012, 15:14
As for the WT thing, that really surprises me. I thought I had even read some literature or something from WT at one point mentioning the higher rye percentage. It even tastes like it has quite a bit more rye in it than other bourbons. Weird.

I agree. I think that distinctive taste must come from a combo of the high char level and low entry proof.

Just noticed some mistakes of a typo/usage nature. Updating the tree...

Josh
04-25-2012, 15:26
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.1


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Independent Stave
Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char, Independent Stave
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), etc. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Pikesville, Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/ (http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/)

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18, Vintage 17 etc

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any? Also how much of what is being marketed as S-W was really made at Bernheim?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Are the Bowman bourbons really made from mashbill #2?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

Lazer
04-25-2012, 16:06
Wow, Now that's what I call a menu!:grin:

Josh
04-25-2012, 18:03
And the corrections continue to roll in, which is a good thing!:cool:

----------------------------------------------------

Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.2


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Independent Stave
Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char, Independent Stave
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), etc. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Pikesville, Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Dixie Dew, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/ (http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/)

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18, Vintage 17 etc

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any? Also how much of what is being marketed as S-W was really made at Bernheim?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Are the Bowman bourbons really made from mashbill #2?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

AaronWF
04-25-2012, 18:29
Josh, I don't want to trouble you with more additions here, but in the interest of thoroughness, it occurs to me that you might want to include the High West products that come from Barton and Four Roses.

Barton: 10/80/10 in Rendezvous Rye and 16yo Rocky Mountain Rye

Four Roses: 10yo E recipe (can't find which one) in Bourye and 5yo E recipe in Son of Bourye.

This info may be peripheral to the point of your tree, so feel free to ignore!

Restaurant man
04-25-2012, 21:29
Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

so should I get" a strong family resemblance between all these whiskies? I definitely do between lot b and Elmer t lee. I was shocked when I tasted etl for the first time tonight how similar it was to lob b. The rest of em, not so sure. Don't remember any resemblance to blantons though. Where is the point of difference? Is it all just age and barrel placement?

dbk
04-26-2012, 05:18
Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*

so should I get" a strong family resemblance between all these whiskies? I definitely do between lot b and Elmer t lee. I was shocked when I tasted etl for the first time tonight how similar it was to lob b. The rest of em, not so sure. Don't remember any resemblance to blantons though. Where is the point of difference? Is it all just age and barrel placement?
Normally, I would say you should see some similarities among the whiskies produced by the same distillery. But that you have so far only spotted a resemblance between Elmer T. Lee and Van Winkle "Lot B" is, well, peculiar.

Yes, barrel location and age will affect similarity among whiskies, and ETL is reputedly around the same age as the Lot B (10-14 years (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=48734&postcount=14)). However, the mash bill, yeast, type of still, proof off the still, barrel entry proof, and barrel char will also play a part, and that list is hardly exhaustive. I suspect most of us would find the closest resemblance among the whiskies with the same mash bill and yeast, but these will also tend to have the same proof off the still, barrel entry proof, and barrel char, as they come from the same distillery. As a consumer, it's actually hard to know what variables matter (and how) without the sort of work being done by Buffalo Trace with their Single Oak project.

It's also possible that your palate is "calibrated" differently from others. Most of us have tasted many whiskies from many distilleries, and so have a sense of the range among them, which can also help to define a distillery "character." For instance, I don't have much trouble discriminating Buffalo Trace, Heaven Hill, Beam, or Four Roses products from one another. To me, Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare 10 are certainly similar when tasted head to head, and the same goes for Booker's vs. Baker's vs. Knob Creek, or any of the Four Roses single barrels (w/ different mash bills and yeasts, no less). Mixing and matching between distilleries, however, shows how different they can be (though surprisingly less often than you might think).

All of this to say that you might profit from arranging a few head to head tastings of your own, using comparison whiskies from both the same and different distilleries, as well as similar vs. different mash bills, ages, etc. I've learned a lot that way.

Josh
05-04-2012, 11:36
Barton: 10/80/10 in Rendezvous Rye and 16yo Rocky Mountain Rye

Four Roses: 10yo E recipe (can't find which one) in Bourye and 5yo E recipe in Son of Bourye.

This info may be peripheral to the point of your tree, so feel free to ignore!

Thanks for the info! I'll give some thought to how to best work that in.




so should I get" a strong family resemblance between all these whiskies? I definitely do between lot b and Elmer t lee. I was shocked when I tasted etl for the first time tonight how similar it was to lob b. The rest of em, not so sure. Don't remember any resemblance to blantons though. Where is the point of difference? Is it all just age and barrel placement?

In the case of Blanton's, every barrel that goes into Blanton's is from the only warehouse on the property that is of the metal-clad type, warehouse H. The others, IIRC are all brick.

The biggest difference, as Aaron pointed out is that Lot B is a wheater and ETL is not. I haven't noticed a lot of similarities between the two myself, but they may very well be aged in the same warehouses or in similar positions within those warehouses.

To me, Blanton's is much more tannic than AAA 10 y/o, ETL or RHF. One bottle I had was like walking into Wilson's at the Mall.

sutton
05-04-2012, 16:04
To me, Blanton's is much more tannic than AAA 10 y/o, ETL or RHF. One bottle I had was like walking into Wilson's at the Mall.

What a great simile! Will have to remember that one ... I think I can smell it now ... :grin:

White Dog
05-10-2012, 19:38
Must bump, as I saw another posted question that is in need of this thread, which is "The Most Deserving Sticky Thread, but Alas, Remains None-Sticky."

Restaurant man
05-10-2012, 20:56
Normally, I would say you should see some similarities among the whiskies produced by the same distillery. But that you have so far only spotted a resemblance between Elmer T. Lee and Van Winkle "Lot B" is, well, peculiar.

Yes, barrel location and age will affect similarity among whiskies, and ETL is reputedly around the same age as the Lot B (10-14 years (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=48734&postcount=14)). However, the mash bill, yeast, type of still, proof off the still, barrel entry proof, and barrel char will also play a part, and that list is hardly exhaustive. I suspect most of us would find the closest resemblance among the whiskies with the same mash bill and yeast, but these will also tend to have the same proof off the still, barrel entry proof, and barrel char, as they come from the same distillery. As a consumer, it's actually hard to know what variables matter (and how) without the sort of work being done by Buffalo Trace with their Single Oak project.

It's also possible that your palate is "calibrated" differently from others. Most of us have tasted many whiskies from many distilleries, and so have a sense of the range among them, which can also help to define a distillery "character." For instance, I don't have much trouble discriminating Buffalo Trace, Heaven Hill, Beam, or Four Roses products from one another. To me, Buffalo Trace and Eagle Rare 10 are certainly similar when tasted head to head, and the same goes for Booker's vs. Baker's vs. Knob Creek, or any of the Four Roses single barrels (w/ different mash bills and yeasts, no less). Mixing and matching between distilleries, however, shows how different they can be (though surprisingly less often than you might think).

All of this to say that you might profit from arranging a few head to head tastings of your own, using comparison whiskies from both the same and different distilleries, as well as similar vs. different mash bills, ages, etc. I've learned a lot that way.

Wow! your answer leaps to a lot of conclusions about my knowledge of the subject. Thank you for being the expert that you are and taking the time to educate dolts like myself. you are a true humanitarian!

Restaurant man
05-11-2012, 13:01
Wow! your answer leaps to a lot of conclusions about my knowledge of the subject. Thank you for being the expert that you are and taking the time to educate dolts like myself. you are a true humanitarian!

That was supposed to be tongue and cheek but on second read I sounded like a doosh. sorry

boss302
05-11-2012, 14:40
LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the LDI website: http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersind...om/Custom.aspx (http://www.lawrenceburgdistillersindiana.com/Custom.aspx)

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! post it here so it can be corrected.

The Marketing materials for Bulleit cite a 95% Rye mashbill. Not sure if this helps or not...

White Dog
05-30-2012, 19:58
This thread is still not sticky?? Really?:fish2: :fish2: :fish2:

Scott, Paul and Mr. Gorbachev, please tear down this wall!:cool:

Sylvan
06-12-2012, 15:55
Love the Whiskey Tree! Found it in the preparation of a similar list. Couple of possible corrections from other sources:

George Dickel from (80/12/8) to (84/8/8)
http://www.alcademics.com/2012/06/distillery-visit-george-dickel.html
Jack Daniels from (80/8/12) to (80/12/8)
http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-do-terns-high-rye-and-low-rye-mean.html
Bulleit Bourbon (68/28/4)
http://scotchhobbyist.com/2010/02/04/bulleit-bourbon-tasting/
(http://scotchhobbyist.com/2010/02/04/bulleit-bourbon-tasting/)

White Dog
06-12-2012, 17:05
Love the Whiskey Tree! Found it in the preparation of a similar list. Couple of possible corrections from other sources:

George Dickel from (80/12/8) to (84/8/8)
http://www.alcademics.com/2012/06/distillery-visit-george-dickel.html
Jack Daniels from (80/8/12) to (80/12/8)
http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-do-terns-high-rye-and-low-rye-mean.html
Bulleit Bourbon (68/28/4)
http://scotchhobbyist.com/2010/02/04/bulleit-bourbon-tasting/
(http://scotchhobbyist.com/2010/02/04/bulleit-bourbon-tasting/)

Tis a great thread. But if you need to know the Bulleit mashbills, simply visit the 4R and LDI websites. Don't believe a blogger who's drinking the kool-aid.

ethangsmith
06-20-2012, 18:47
Your Beam bourbon mashbill does not equal 100......

MyOldKyDram
06-20-2012, 19:09
Pfft, math.

Loving the whiskey tree!

ethangsmith
06-20-2012, 19:21
Haha.

I'd agree, this is probably the most handy and most comprehensive undertaking on the net when it comes to American whiskey!!!

Josh
06-20-2012, 20:42
I was told there would be no math.

Smithford
06-21-2012, 11:11
Adding something, yet nothing at all ...

At a recent bourbon tasting in Toronto, Harlen Wheatley said this:

"1792 is the highest rye bourbon that we [Sazerac] offer. We have 3 different Rye bourbons. ... It's almost close to maybe a Rye Whiskey. It's not Rye Whiskey, it's a bourbon. But it's close." The latter bit was speaking about the taste, not the mashbill.

Josh
06-21-2012, 11:48
Adding something, yet nothing at all ...

At a recent bourbon tasting in Toronto, Harlen Wheatley said this:

"1792 is the highest rye bourbon that we [Sazerac] offer. We have 3 different Rye bourbons. ... It's almost close to maybe a Rye Whiskey. It's not Rye Whiskey, it's a bourbon. But it's close." The latter bit was speaking about the taste, not the mashbill.

What a weird thing for Harlan to say. They have at least 4 rye bourbon mashbills in regular production. Three if BT #2 is excluded, I guess. As for the "highest rye" bit, VOB I could believe, but 1792? Doesn't taste anything like a rye to me. Oh well, different strokes & all that. Thanks for the information Smithford!

Josh
06-21-2012, 11:55
Pfft, math.

Loving the whiskey tree!


Haha.

I'd agree, this is probably the most handy and most comprehensive undertaking on the net when it comes to American whiskey!!!

Also, Thanks guys!

:fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2: :fish2:

Smithford
06-21-2012, 12:19
What a weird thing for Harlan to say. They have at least 4 rye bourbon mashbills in regular production. Three if BT #2 is excluded, I guess.
Yes. It wasn't, since Blanton's Gold was part of the tasting event. Perhaps he meant he was presenting 3 that night.


As for the "highest rye" bit, VOB I could believe, but 1792? Doesn't taste anything like a rye to me.
Yeah, it doesn't taste like much of anything to me ...

White Dog
06-21-2012, 15:28
What a weird thing for Harlan to say. They have at least 4 rye bourbon mashbills in regular production. Three if BT #2 is excluded, I guess. As for the "highest rye" bit, VOB I could believe, but 1792? Doesn't taste anything like a rye to me. Oh well, different strokes & all that. Thanks for the information Smithford!

It's very weird, as Harlan would never say anything contradictory.:skep::skep:

Restaurant man
06-22-2012, 23:12
It's very weird, as Harlan would never say anything contradictory.:skep::skep:

He's a riddle wrapped in an enigma

Josh
06-23-2012, 12:47
...wrapped in a polo shirt.

CorvallisCracker
06-27-2012, 14:45
Your Beam bourbon mashbill does not equal 100......

As those percentages came from this post (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?4276-Basil-Hayden-s-Questions&p=45920&viewfull=1#post45920), it would suggest that it was Booker that couldn't do math...

ethangsmith
06-27-2012, 16:11
As those percentages came from this post (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?4276-Basil-Hayden-s-Questions&p=45920&viewfull=1#post45920), it would suggest that it was Booker that couldn't do math...

That's funny. So I wonder what the Beam mashbill actually is. Would Parker and Craig Beam at HH be using the same mashbill as they are at Jim Beam due to family heritage or would that not matter when it comes to stuff like mashbills?

HP12
08-24-2012, 14:09
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.0


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

Time to get this post to the front/back of the thread. Great resource.

MauiSon
08-31-2012, 02:26
Concerning Wild Turkey's ryes, I picked this off somewhere (sorry I didn't save the attribution) - "The Rye is made much like the bourbon, except there is about 65% rye in it (with about 23% corn and 12% barley malt). I say "about" because Jimmy doesn't hold with giving out exact figures, or too much information in general."

Josh
08-31-2012, 04:55
Time to get this post to the front/back of the thread. Great resource.

Thanks!


Concerning Wild Turkey's ryes, I picked this off somewhere (sorry I didn't save the attribution) - "The Rye is made much like the bourbon, except there is about 65% rye in it (with about 23% corn and 12% barley malt). I say "about" because Jimmy doesn't hold with giving out exact figures, or too much information in general."

Interesting. Having any luck remembering where you saw that?

redbear
08-31-2012, 07:02
Googling around, I see this Cowdery post from 2001.
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?682-Bourbons-relationship-with-Rye-whisky

MauiSon
08-31-2012, 17:43
Just plug it in, unless there's better information elsewhere. It was obviously the result of an 'interview' with JR and redbear has that confirming bit from Chuck, too. OTOH, it may be old data. You decide.

HighInTheMtns
08-31-2012, 18:48
In Josh's tree the WT Rye is double starred to denote that it reflects new information. He also refers to the same Regan book that Chuck does in the post you linked. I'm guessing that the info in that book is not correct.

MauiSon
09-01-2012, 02:35
Okay, I noticed that the percentages changed between tree post #19 and tree post #56, but no discussion concerning the change for WT occurred between those posts - so what is the source of the 'new information'? I'll buy into it, but I'd like to see how it evolved ('cause the way it looks, WT was updated along with the HH information). Oops, now I see it in post #62 - a 2007 interview with Eddie Russell per Chuck. Never mind.

Here's the most recent quote of the 65% rye stuff:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/16470

redbear
09-01-2012, 06:13
Okay, I noticed that the percentages changed between tree post #19 and tree post #56, but no discussion concerning the change for WT occurred between those posts - so what is the source of the 'new information'? I'll buy into it, but I'd like to see how it evolved ('cause the way it looks, WT was updated along with the HH information). Oops, now I see it in post #62 - a 2007 interview with Eddie Russell per Chuck. Never mind.

Here's the most recent quote of the 65% rye stuff:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/16470

He doesn't say where he gets his information. It reads like a rehash of previously posted information.

Bmac
10-23-2012, 21:51
Not sure how accurate this is, but two things:

1¤ the latest release of VB17, although a wheater, is not SW. You have it listed with JPS and PVW.

2¤ Is ETL a wheater? I thought it was a 7-9 yr rye bourbon? Please clarify if this is the regular current release or a special edition.

callmeox
10-24-2012, 03:28
Not sure how accurate this is, but two things:

1¤ the latest release of VB17, although a wheater, is not SW. You have it listed with JPS and PVW.

2¤ Is ETL a wheater? I thought it was a 7-9 yr rye bourbon? Please clarify if this is the regular current release or a special edition.

ETL is listed multiple times as BT rye mash #2 (lower corn).

Where do you see it listed as a wheater?

Josh
10-24-2012, 05:35
I'm not seeing where I have Vintage 17 listed anywhere, either.

Also noticed that nobody has corrected my incorrect use of et al. Should be etc.

dbk
10-24-2012, 06:39
Also noticed that nobody has corrected my incorrect use of et al. Should be etc.
I'm embarrassed for you, Josh! That said, it was perfectly legitimate for you to use "et al." in that context. "Et al." simply means "and others"; although its preferred usage is to refer to people, it may also be used to refer to objects. In the latter case, it is synonymous with (some uses of) "etc."

—Signed, The Grammatical Scientist (not to be confused with that a**hole, The Scientific Grammaticist).

HighInTheMtns
10-24-2012, 06:54
I'm not seeing where I have Vintage 17 listed anywhere, either.

Also noticed that nobody has corrected my incorrect use of et al. Should be etc.
The latest version of the tree lists Vintage 17, and also you switched from et al to etc at that time :-)
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?15005-Whiskey-Tree&p=285944&viewfull=1#post285944

Bmac
10-24-2012, 10:36
ETL is listed multiple times as BT rye mash #2 (lower corn).

Where do you see it listed as a wheater?

When they compared it to Weller. How can you compare a wheater to a rye?

White Dog
10-24-2012, 11:05
When they compared it to Weller. How can you compare a wheater to a rye?

What do you mean by this sentence??

Josh clearly has ETL listed as BT#2 low corn.

luther.r
10-24-2012, 12:29
What do you mean by this sentence??

Josh clearly has ETL listed as BT#2 low corn.

I think he's referring to this (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?15005-Whiskey-Tree&p=285971&viewfull=1#post285971) post, which was addressed shortly after it was published.

kickert
10-25-2012, 02:29
You can easily compare a wheater to a rye. We tend to think that mashbill is the be-all and end-all when it comes to defining characteristics. Yeast, barrels, warehouses, blending techniques and "distillery characteristics" are all just as important. I will go on record as saying I think ETL is much more similar to Weller 12 than it is to something like Evan Williams even though the mashbill of the later is more similar.

Josh
10-25-2012, 03:48
The latest version of the tree lists Vintage 17, and also you switched from et al to etc at that time :-)
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?15005-Whiskey-Tree&p=285944&viewfull=1#post285944

Thanks! Kept looking at HP12's bump and overlooked the latest post.

I don't remember why Vintage 17 got put in there, I will remove it at the next revision.

White Dog
11-29-2012, 12:04
Thank you, mods!!!

smokinjoe
11-29-2012, 12:56
Thank you, mods!!!

+1. Great move.

And, thanks to Josh for his work.

:toast:

OscarV
11-29-2012, 13:08
Also noticed that nobody has corrected my incorrect use of et al. Should be etc.


So this is what they teach at Purdue?

Josh
11-29-2012, 15:13
So this is what they teach at Purdue?

I don't know, I didn't go there. Only my Wife, sister, brother-in-law and father went there.

OscarV
11-29-2012, 15:46
I don't know, I didn't go there. Only my Wife, sister, brother-in-law and father went there.


Sorry 'bout that, I should pay more attention to you.

Josh
11-29-2012, 15:50
Sorry 'bout that, I should pay more attention to you.

The last thing I need is more attention. Just encourages me.

But seriously folks, thanks for the praise. It's not perfect, but at least it's all in one place.

And thanks to Sky for asking the question in the first place.

tanstaafl2
12-03-2012, 11:22
Always a very handy reference. Too bad the industry doesn't provide this up front like they should....

Does there need to be a new line for BT to accomodate the new CEHT Rye mashbill? Past reports (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?17618-Col-E-H-Taylor-Straight-Rye&p=298878&viewfull=1#post298878) seem to suggest it is an entirely new mashbill but I have no first hand knowledge either way.

SMOWK
12-04-2012, 08:44
And thanks to Sky for asking the question in the first place.

I didn't realize what a great idea this was until you did all the legwork. This really is a great tool, and I'll bet more than one member carries this around in his wallet.

SMOWK
12-04-2012, 09:04
Here is version 5.2 in excel format that is easily printed and foldable for your wallet.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/sihr95

shoshani
01-12-2013, 16:56
PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Regan & Regan's book came out around 1997 or so; it's been reissued but not revised, so any information they have for "Ancient Age Distillery" would pertain to mashbill #2, the lower corn higher rye Age International mashbill. None of the BT whiskeys (that Buffalo Trace owns and that are made to mashbill #1) were on the market yet at the time the Regans wrote their book. That being said, I can't imagine a mashbill that's higher in corn and lower in rye than 80/10/10! So that indeed cannot be correct.

EDIT: I misspoke badly. I meant the BT whiskeys were not on the market *by BT*. Sorry about that. Benchmark, Charter, and others that BT currently owns and produces were on the market at the time the Regans wrote, but were owned and produced by other distilleries.


Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

The actual classic Stitzel-Weller mashbill was, if I recall correctly, 70/18/12, a mashbill from which its derivative Maker's Mark deviates only fractionally. Over time Diageo's predecessors lowered the amount of barley malt, at one time experimenting with enzymes. What today's Heaven Hill Bernheim mashbill is, I've no idea, but they would only have what they inherited, ie the mashbills in use by UDV at the time of the sale. (I would imagine this holds true with BT and the Weller line, although the Van Winkle influence has no doubt led to their wheated mashbills at the very least being restored to the S-W proportions, if not the S-W processes. BT cooks under pressure, for example, a process Pappy spoke out against openly.)

Josh
02-12-2013, 17:34
Regan & Regan's book came out around 1997 or so; it's been reissued but not revised, so any information they have for "Ancient Age Distillery" would pertain to mashbill #2, the lower corn higher rye Age International mashbill. None of the BT whiskeys (that Buffalo Trace owns and that are made to mashbill #1) were on the market yet at the time the Regans wrote their book. That being said, I can't imagine a mashbill that's higher in corn and lower in rye than 80/10/10! So that indeed cannot be correct.

EDIT: I misspoke badly. I meant the BT whiskeys were not on the market *by BT*. Sorry about that. Benchmark, Charter, and others that BT currently owns and produces were on the market at the time the Regans wrote, but were owned and produced by other distilleries.

Interesting! That was the missing piece of information for me, when ER, OC, and Bm (see what I did there?) moved to BT. So as you said, it seems that R & R were saying that the AA mashbill is the 80%. But...


The actual classic Stitzel-Weller mashbill was, if I recall correctly, 70/18/12, a mashbill from which its derivative Maker's Mark deviates only fractionally. Over time Diageo's predecessors lowered the amount of barley malt, at one time experimenting with enzymes. What today's Heaven Hill Bernheim mashbill is, I've no idea, but they would only have what they inherited, ie the mashbills in use by UDV at the time of the sale. (I would imagine this holds true with BT and the Weller line, although the Van Winkle influence has no doubt led to their wheated mashbills at the very least being restored to the S-W proportions, if not the S-W processes. BT cooks under pressure, for example, a process Pappy spoke out against openly.)

That and the first paragraph (and several other posts in this thread) really cast doubt in my mind about the accuracy of the mashbill info in that book. Did they get this information from Master Distillers? The whole thing seems like a bit of a mess to me now.

Anyway, great post. Thanks!

HP12
02-12-2013, 18:23
Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.0


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

Time to dig this out again and bring it forward. Cheers.

jburlowski
03-24-2013, 06:02
I was at a Elijah Craig barrel selection last week where Rob Hutchins of Heaven Hill said emphatically that the HH rye bourbon mash bill was 78/11/11.

squire
03-24-2013, 07:03
I would've sworn that Craig Beam said in an interview the standard HH mashbill was 75/13/12 but I don't suppose a few percentage points matter that much.

SFS
03-24-2013, 08:29
Between those two, who would be in a better position to know? (I don't know what role Rob Hutchins occupies.)

HighHorse
03-24-2013, 09:09
Between those two, who would be in a better position to know? (I don't know what role Rob Hutchins occupies.)

Rob was their Ambassador for the last several years. He was recently named regional mgr for KY/TN. He oversaw our barrel picks last year and authorized the dual barrel EC .. which was a first. He is a well-liked guy who will undoubtedly go far with this organization in the opinion of our local retailer.

SFS
03-24-2013, 09:49
So who would be in a better position to know a mashbill, the master distiller, or a brand ambassador? It would seem to me, the "boots on the ground" would belong to the master distiller.

squire
03-24-2013, 10:52
I just thought I was pointing out something that was fairly well known but it doesn't matter to me, I'll buy it however they make it.

Josh
03-24-2013, 11:28
Good discussion!

I like Rob a lot, but I'm inclined to stick with what Craig said and what's currently on the tree. If someone can get somebody else who is in a position to know to confirm that 78% corn number, then I will change it.

brettckeen
03-25-2013, 16:00
Where is Cabin Still fitting into this? Is it made by Heaven Hill or just owned by? I had some last night and it had those distinct nutty nodes of Old Crow/ Beam. I know in the past it was a wheater but I highly doubt it based on taste.

squire
03-25-2013, 16:28
Cabin Still is owned and made by Heaven Hill. Originally a wheat recipe I suspect it's standard HH recipe now as it's marketed as a no frills value brand.

Brisko
03-25-2013, 19:12
Cabin Still, must be a very popular brand in Minnesota based on the oceans of it flooding the bottom shelves. I would say it's definitely HH make-- it's very corny but at only 3 years old it's fairly harsh considering its low proof. I couldn't testify one way or the other to its mashbill, but it could be wheated still. It shares some in common with the current Old Fitz (but the overall flavor is more like the Gold BiB). Wheat or rye, I don't know, but it is definitely young. Love the label, though.

Meruck
03-25-2013, 20:08
Where does one obtain one of these , "whiskey trees"?

squire
03-25-2013, 20:13
Do a search here.

TheNovaMan
03-25-2013, 21:22
There is a link to v5.2 at the bottom of page 18.

higgins
03-26-2013, 07:47
Where does one obtain one of these , "whiskey trees"?

Squire and Pete are correct of course, but I got mine by planting magic whiskey beans.

squire
03-26-2013, 07:52
I can smell the fertilizer you used Greg.

brettckeen
03-26-2013, 14:05
It shares some in common with the current Old Fitz (but the overall flavor is more like the Gold BiB). Wheat or rye, I don't know, but it is definitely young. Love the label, though.
Maybe I need to grab a bottle of Old Fitz 80 and evan black, and find the sister.

Josh
04-21-2013, 13:29
Maybe I need to grab a bottle of Old Fitz 80 and evan black, and find the sister.

As long as you're not finding my sister, that sounds like a good plan.

Lazer
04-21-2013, 18:34
Has anybody memorized the entire whiskey tree yet?

Tucker
04-22-2013, 08:19
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?19879

Recent tour of Dickel...



The barrels have a #4 char on the body (staves) and #2 on the heads and are sourced from KY.
The mashbill is 84/8/8

Yeti
04-22-2013, 12:58
There's a new Brew Pub that opened here this weekend and the whiskey list boldly proclaims that Maker's Mark is a 51/49 wheat bourbon.

chasking
04-25-2013, 14:56
If the reason the actual data for LDI is not in the tree is simply because nobody's bothered to type it up, here it is:

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Wheat Bourbon (51/45/4)
Malt Bourbon (51/0/49)
Lower Rye Bourbon (75/21/4)
Higher Rye Bourbon (60/36/4) - Smooth Ambler Old Scout*?
Corn Bourbon (99/0/1)
Corn Whiskey (81/15/4)
Malt Whiskey (0/0/100)
Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)
51% Rye Whiskey (45/51/4) – Templeton Rye*?
95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*
95% Wheat Whiskey (0/95/5)
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), and KBD

Yeti
05-03-2013, 09:36
The new TPS single barrel SA Old Scouts are the 21% low rye bourbons. Don't know how that translates to the primary line.

Edit: The older TPS 7 year bottles are the 36%. That's probably what the standard issue is as well. But it makes me wonder about VOS.

brettckeen
05-08-2013, 17:11
chasking i believe the templeton is the 95 5 aswell

qman22
05-09-2013, 12:21
The new TPS single barrel SA Old Scouts are the 21% low rye bourbons. Don't know how that translates to the primary line.

Edit: The older TPS 7 year bottles are the 36%. That's probably what the standard issue is as well. But it makes me wonder about VOS.

I'm pretty sure VOS is the 21% rye as well. I remember reading that sometime around their release.

Mrvinal
06-26-2013, 13:10
The link doesn't work. Anywhere else I can get it. I want a copy for my whiskey club meeting tonight.

Josh
06-26-2013, 17:46
The link doesn't work. Anywhere else I can get it. I want a copy for my whiskey club meeting tonight. Which one doesn't work? The MGPI one?

Josh
06-26-2013, 17:50
If the reason the actual data for LDI is not in the tree is simply because nobody's bothered to type it up, here it is:

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Wheat Bourbon (51/45/4)
Malt Bourbon (51/0/49)
Lower Rye Bourbon (75/21/4)
Higher Rye Bourbon (60/36/4) - Smooth Ambler Old Scout*?
Corn Bourbon (99/0/1)
Corn Whiskey (81/15/4)
Malt Whiskey (0/0/100)
Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)
51% Rye Whiskey (45/51/4) – Templeton Rye*?
95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*
95% Wheat Whiskey (0/95/5)
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), and KBDThat would be why. Thanks for typing it up! I don't think I will include the mashbills without products attached in the next edition, but it is all here in the thread for anyone to see. Thanks!

andykeck
08-24-2013, 22:55
If the reason the actual data for LDI is not in the tree is simply because nobody's bothered to type it up, here it is:


LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
)
Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)
51% Rye Whiskey (45/51/4) – Templeton Rye*?
95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*


Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), and KBD


For the record, the Templeton website still says they're the 95% rye mashbill. Well actually, they say 90+% specifically, but we all know what that leaves.

tanstaafl2
10-07-2013, 14:54
That would be why. Thanks for typing it up! I don't think I will include the mashbills without products attached in the next edition, but it is all here in the thread for anyone to see. Thanks!

I don't think any of the new mash bills likely have a product associated with them yet because they are so new. Should probably distinguish them from the original mash bills.

MGP (formerly LDI) (http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/), ??? char, Independent Stave?

Original mash bills
Lower Rye Bourbon (75/21/4)
Higher Rye Bourbon (60/36/4) - Smooth Ambler Old Scout*?
Corn Bourbon (99/0/1)
"Light" Whiskey (99/0/1) - Not clear what this is. Unaged?
Corn Whiskey (81/15/4)
95% Rye Whiskey (0/95/5) – Bulleit Rye*, Templeton Rye*?

New mash bills - As of April 2013 (http://www.mgpingredients.com/news-and-press/news-releases/MGP-Expanding-Whiskey-and-Bourbon-Offerings-with-Addition-of-New-Mash-Bills-200104191.html)
Rye Whiskey (0/51/49)
Rye Whiskey (45/51/4)
95% Wheat Whiskey (0/95/5)
100% Barley Malt Whiskey (0/0/100)
Wheat Bourbon (51/45/4)
Barley Malt Bourbon (51/0/49)

Josh
10-07-2013, 17:07
Thanks to everybody for all the posts regarding the MGPI mashbills I really think that to keep this from spinning out of control, the tree needs to stick to mashbills and other data that goes with products actually on the shelves. Including products that used to exist or may exist in the future is a black hole from which there is no escape.

I'll update the tree this week if I can.

ChainWhip
11-13-2013, 14:57
While not quite the same as the Whiskey tree maintained here, GQ put out a visual representation recently:

http://www.gq.com/images/life/2013/11/bourbon-tree/bourbon-family-tree-large.jpg

http://www.gq.com/images/life/2013/11/bourbon-tree/bourbon-family-tree-large.jpg

(image from GQ Magazine)

TunnelTiger
11-13-2013, 16:44
CW - thanks for this view - totally cool.

tanstaafl2
11-14-2013, 11:03
Interesting but suggests a lack of true whiskey nerdiness was involved in the creation! Also interesting that they show a lack of separation between BF and HH while most everything else has a line separating them where appropriate.

For example while it may soon be true the current Saz 18 and VWFRR don't really belong on the same branch of the BT tree do they? And the two older Pappy's are in a state of transition from one branch to another.

Four roses ought to have ten trunks with branches growing to gether rather like a Banyan tree!

Old Fitz seems to branch off a wee bit early on the HH tree for some reason.

JD rye doesn't rate a mention while Dickel Rye, Jacob's Ghost and other white dogs make an appearance.

And I guess they have no clue what to do with the various CEHT or PHC expersions!

MauiSon
11-14-2013, 11:06
It does help to emphasize the rarity of well-aged stock, tho.

ChainWhip
11-14-2013, 11:30
For example while it may soon be true the current Saz 18 and VWFRR don't really belong on the same branch of the BT tree do they? And the two older Pappy's are in a state of transition from one branch to another.


Well put B! Honestly, I'd like to see a time-elapse GIF of this illustration with the expressions jumping between different distilleries/trees over time.

Josh
11-15-2013, 09:07
Well put B! Honestly, I'd like to see a time-elapse GIF of this illustration with the expressions jumping between different distilleries/trees over time. That what make a fun chart even more fun! Thanks for sharing that! Very cool.

Hoping to post the new version soon. Gonna add the known MGPI mashbills and take away the (high barley?) speculation from Barton-1792 section.

darylld911
11-16-2013, 05:50
I wondered about the placement of some, like the ETL looks like it well below Blantons and AAA 10 yr, when ETL is bottled (at least recently) closer to 9 yrs (and I read somewhere that Harlen said Blantons was typically in the 6-8 yr range). Interesting display of information though!

kickert
11-16-2013, 06:54
Interesting but suggests a lack of true whiskey nerdiness was involved in the creation!

Perhaps, but as mainstream publications go, this one is SIGNIFICANTLY better than most. There are no gross misrepresentations or complete lunacy. Perhaps not the most detailed, but it gives an accurate picture of the industry and what comes from where.

shoshani
11-16-2013, 19:04
That tree view is fascinating - I love how some related branches wrap, and how Willett mostly has a ghost tree. But it is missing things. Just from my quick observation:

There is no rye branch for Wild Turkey at all despite at least three expressions (WT101, WT81, RR). Edit: Russell's Reserve is also misspelled, leaving an L out of Russell.

A lot of cats-and-dogs labels are missing, especially from Barton and Heaven Hill. This is probably due to both space consideration and lack of product awareness of those labels amongst GQ's trendy audience.

Parker's Heritage Collection is missing from the Heaven Hill tree, but the graphic includes similar high-end offerings from Buffalo Trace and Woodford Reserve.

The Bulleit branch of the Four Roses Tree intertwines with a branch from the George Dickel tree, when it should logically extend further over to intertwine with a rye branch of the MGPI tree for the Bulleit Rye. (The error could stand on a technicality, since Bulleit is owned by Diageo which also owns Dickel, but the graphic doesn't mention that.)

A graphic similar to this but taking into account the breadth and scope of the list we have here would be fascinating. And probably eyestrain-inducing. :)

Kalessin
12-04-2013, 07:21
Interesting but suggests a lack of true whiskey nerdiness was involved in the creation! Also interesting that they show a lack of separation between BF and HH while most everything else has a line separating them where appropriate.

Four roses ought to have ten trunks with branches growing to gether rather like a Banyan tree!


I believe the missing line between BF and HH might be because this is a two-page magazine graphic; that center line would be formed by the magazine binding.

Four Roses' annual releases don't make an appearance, but I'm not sure how I'd represent them on the chart.

HP12
01-22-2014, 20:08
And the corrections continue to roll in, which is a good thing!:cool:

----------------------------------------------------

Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

Whiskey Tree, 5.2


Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

Beam, #4 char, Independent Stave
Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Rią, Knob Creek Rye

Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
Early Times (79/11/10)
Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
Also sells to many NDPs.

Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
#1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
#2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

Four Roses, #3.5 char, Independent Stave
Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218443&postcount=22).

Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), etc. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Pikesville, Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Dixie Dew, Platte Valley*
Also sells to many NDPs.

LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/ (http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/)

Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18, Vintage 17 etc

A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

*Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
**Based on more current information.

PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any? Also how much of what is being marketed as S-W was really made at Bernheim?

How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

Are the Bowman bourbons really made from mashbill #2?

Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.

--------------------------------------------------------
Time for a bump. I hate chasing this post deep in the thread!

Creggor
01-29-2014, 17:02
Ok Thanks for the reply.. I am making a copy for my files..

ModernThirst
06-23-2014, 08:03
I know it's the same source as Old Fitz, but Larceny should be added to the Heaven Hill Wheated Bourbon category, and Stagg Jr. can be added to the BT #1.

PaulO
06-24-2014, 06:15
Also we can add David Nicholson to HH wheated bourbon.