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callmeox
01-27-2011, 22:01
A new bourbon item has popped up on the Ohio list for February. Jim Beam Devil's Cut is listed as a 90 proof NAS bottling priced in the 24.00-26.00 range for 750ml.

What is the scoop on this one?

DeanSheen
01-27-2011, 23:48
I thought it had something to do with bottling residual amounts of bourbon post dump after the barrel had settled. May have been some technique to force it from the wood more efficiently.

callmeox
01-28-2011, 06:05
I believe you are correct.

My initial search before starting this thread came up empty, but Google later found the reference in the KC single barrel thread.

doubleblank
01-28-2011, 07:04
One of the local whiskey reps was trying to describe it as being the opposite of the "angel's share". I replied "You lost me at Beam......."

Randy

kickert
01-28-2011, 09:16
One of the local whiskey reps was trying to describe it as being the opposite of the "angel's share". I replied "You lost me at Beam......."

Randy

So... that would just be whats left in the barrel... just like every other whiskey.

barturtle
01-28-2011, 09:19
So... that would just be whats left in the barrel... just like every other whiskey.

I would think the opposite of Angel's Share would be barrel proof.

callmeox
01-28-2011, 09:22
Apparently the name is a marketers take on Angel's Share.

We all know what shenanigans the marketing folks are capable of...

Stu
01-28-2011, 11:11
I thought it had something to do with bottling residual amounts of bourbon post dump after the barrel had settled. May have been some technique to force it from the wood more efficiently.

Fred Noe was in Little Rock a couple of days ago, I went yesterday to the store he visited and my understanding was what you said, Robert. Phil said that Fred said they roll the barrels after dumping them and that brings out a little more from the wood. Then they pour all of that together for the devils share. Had I been there I'd have asked if they have a special machine for rolling, do it by hand, or what?

Virus_Of_Life
01-28-2011, 11:30
Fred Noe was in Little Rock a couple of days ago, I went yesterday to the store he visited and my understanding was what you said, Robert. Phil said that Fred said they roll the barrels after dumping them and that brings out a little more from the wood. Then they pour all of that together for the devils share. Had I been there I'd have asked if they have a special machine for rolling, do it by hand, or what?

Yes, when attending the MM46 soiree Joshua and I got that same story from a rep there. Something about the way they dump barrels leaves a little bit in each and this is getting that last little bit and maybe a little rinse as well, I can't recall all the details.

OscarV
01-28-2011, 11:43
One of the local whiskey reps was trying to describe it as being the opposite of the "angel's share". I replied "You lost me at Beam......."

Randy




:slappin: :lol: :slappin: :lol: :slappin: :lol: Good one Randy!

cowdery
01-28-2011, 17:45
Daniel's has a whole facility near their bottling house where they take the just-dumped barrels, fill them about 1/3 with water, and stack them on end. The low filll level is because they don't re-bung the barrels. They let them sit that way for something like three months. They've always rinsed the barrels and gotten a little more alcohol that way but this method produces five times more alcohol. They use it to dilute the whiskey from barrel proof to bottle proof which, since the water has this small amount of alcohol in it, makes the whiskey go further. I suspect Beam is doing something similar but decided to turn it into a product.

I don't see where just rolling the barrel would give you anything. You have to roll it with water in it. This is something kids in Kentucky have been doing for generations. It's called "sweating the barrel."

straightwhiskeyruffneck
01-28-2011, 19:15
What if they rinse the used barrels sitting around with barrel proof Jim beam? I would buy handles of that juice!

Josh
01-29-2011, 04:34
What if they rinse the used barrels sitting around with barrel proof Jim beam? I would buy handles of that juice!

What they should do is rinse it with milk or baby formula and then sell it as "Cherub's share". Might help me get more sleep. Rob might be interested in this as well.

DeanSheen
01-29-2011, 06:33
What they should do is rinse it with milk or baby formula and then sell it as "Cherub's share". Might help me get more sleep. Rob might be interested in this as well.

Yep, we could put that in the soothing arsenal right next to the opium. That stuff works like a charm I'll tell you.

squire
01-29-2011, 14:51
It just makes sense that a dumped barrel will still be wet inside with residual whisky still in the wood although I suspect the extraction process is more sophisticated than rolling a bunch of barrels.

tmckenzie
01-30-2011, 12:55
Wehn is this supposed to be out? It should be really a lot better than the regular beam. The extra oxidation should make it interesting.

jsbac
02-04-2011, 11:08
Stu, mind sharing which store Fred Noe was at? I guess I missed it.. My guess, however, is that he was at Colonial?

jsbac

Gillman
02-07-2011, 13:24
From a marketing standpoint it's a great name. As for taste, we will have to see.

It is interesting that established bourbon makers are trying new things like this, including the way Maker's 46 is stave-treated so to speak after normal aging, or where fruited bourbons (Red Stag) are issued. I tried Maker's 46, it was good but I didn't find it that different from the standard Maker's.

It's all noteworthy but of the new releases I've heard of, I most look forward to the higher proof, single barrel version of KC. It's probably not going to be a quantum leap for the brand, but choosing distinctive and presumably superlative barrels, and higher proof, can go some way to boosting quality, or choice rather.

Gary

squire
02-07-2011, 14:46
So long as they include us in the something for everybody group.

ErichPryde
02-07-2011, 21:34
So long as they include us in the something for everybody group.

They did.... Knob creek single barrel. :cool:

cowdery
02-08-2011, 12:22
They did.... Knob creek single barrel. :cool:

and, arguably at least, Maker's 46.

squire
02-08-2011, 17:01
That was my reference also Erich, following Gary's post. I like Knob Creek well enough to try a different expression.

warehouseman
02-11-2011, 18:49
LOL i like this thread

cowdery
02-11-2011, 20:59
I like the fact that Beam and Brown-Forman seem to have caught line extension fever. That can only be a good thing.

cowdery
02-15-2011, 12:58
I got a sample of this yesterday. The letter from Fred Noe savs, in part, "it's the liquid that gets trapped within the wood of the barrel that doesn't make its way to the angels, Booker, or anyone else ... until now."

All he says about how it's extracted is this: "Through a unique, proprietary process, we extract this formerly lost liquid from deep inside the barrel wood and put it back into our special Bourbon. The resulting liquid is deep in color, aroma and character with robust notes of wood and vanilla."

It will be in stores in May for a MSRP of $23.99/750ml. He says they're still working on the packaging.

I think people here are going to be very enthusiastic about this. Mixing these dregs (what else do you want to call them?) with the regular juice in some proportion gives the illusion of much greater age because it's so loaded with tannin, char and other wood flavors.

I'm enthusiastic about this product and about what it represents, which is a sudden willingness on Beam's part to really push the envelope and try some cool stuff.

You'll notice that the classification is "Straight Bourbon Whiskey." It's not a finish or anything else that has to be additionally disclosed. It's bourbon mixed with bourbon.

ebo
02-15-2011, 19:26
I'll be looking forward to trying it.

macdeffe
02-15-2011, 21:59
Could it be similar to Blackadders Raw Cask ?

Steffen

Lost Pollito
02-15-2011, 22:43
Doubt that it's simliar to the adder. Adder raw dumps whole casks unfilterred. This sounds like something else.

pepcycle
02-16-2011, 10:01
Since when is "barrel squeezin'" proprietary??

doubleblank
02-16-2011, 12:27
I assume that they aren't simply using the typical "squeezin" techniques to get more whiskey out of the wood. A traditional method to drive moisture/liquid out of wood involves heat in the presence of vacuum conditions. Perhaps a barrel might sweat out some liquid if freshly dumped barrels were carted into a heated room and the pressure reduced. That sounds like a lot of work to get a little liquid out.

Randy

cowdery
02-16-2011, 13:24
Here's what Fred Noe had to say in reply to my inquiry:

"The bourbon base is Jim Beam aged for 6 years. You are exactly correct in your thinking regarding the water, heat, and motion. The whole idea came from the “sweating” of barrels and the bourbon left behind after dumping. Pulling more out of the wood is the key to this product."

jburlowski
02-16-2011, 15:44
If the base is 6 yo JB, any idea what "special bourbon" it is added to?

squire
02-16-2011, 15:47
Perhaps he means all their Bourbon is special.

jburlowski
02-16-2011, 15:51
Perhaps he means all their Bourbon is special.

And, of course, all made the same way since 1795. :lol:

squire
02-16-2011, 15:55
The exact same way or so I've been told.

IowaJeff
02-16-2011, 20:27
Based on Chuck's writeup I'm excited to try this. I've never been a big JB drinker (I certainly don't dislike their products, I just always end up reaching for something else). The SB Knob Creek and this are exciting, especially at their price points. I mean, a SB (practically) barrel proof 9 yo whiskey? A whiskey that extracts more the wood flavor through a new, or at the very least not widely used method? Its like they are granting long held wishes (KCSB) and wishes I didn't even know I had.

Kudos and thanks to JB.

p_elliott
02-17-2011, 08:56
I'll give this one a try if I can find it or order it. I like woody bourbons so this might be right up my alley. Good on JB for trying a couple of new things that are not like Red Stagg or Ri (1). Something for real bourbon drinkers.

nblair
02-17-2011, 09:19
I can definitely see myself picking up a bottle of this. I'm intrigued! I'm also glad it's 90 proof and not 80, 86, etc. (although higher than 90 is always nice too :yum:).

wadewood
02-17-2011, 09:25
I contend as purely a legal fact this is no longer bourbon. Yes, you can use water to reduce bourbon to bottle it. To be bourbon it has no added coloring, flavoring, or other spirits. They are using the squezzins to add back to product. Squezzins are not bourbon, nor is the water they add to the barrel.

kickert
02-17-2011, 09:32
I contend as purely a legal fact this is no longer bourbon. Yes, you can use water to reduce bourbon to bottle it. To be bourbon it has no added coloring, flavoring, or other spirits. They are using the squezzins to add back to product. Squezzins are not bourbon, nor is the water they add to the barrel.

meh ....

Inthewater
02-17-2011, 11:25
I contend as purely a legal fact this is no longer bourbon. Yes, you can use water to reduce bourbon to bottle it. To be bourbon it has no added coloring, flavoring, or other spirits. They are using the squezzins to add back to product. Squezzins are not bourbon, nor is the water they add to the barrel.

I don't get it.

How is it any different than the burbon that poured out of it? Sounds like you are reading more into this than there is.

Isn't it just water "drawing" more of the burbon out of the wood, for all practical purposes? At least that was how it sounded on cowdery's blog.

I mean, if they were adding some other burbon to it, or some other spirit...maybe. But in this case, it's just what was in the barrel. How does that make it not burbon?

squire
02-17-2011, 12:57
My thoughts also, I don't see how the Bourbon trapped by the barrel is legally any different from that which was dumped.

wadewood
02-17-2011, 13:22
My thoughts also, I don't see how the Bourbon trapped by the barrel is legally any different from that which was dumped.

Because they use a process to get that out instead of just draining it. The liquid that comes out after washing/rinsing/heating with water is no longer just water, nor could it be called bourbon (it would be under 80 proof). Since it's not water or bourbon, you can't add it to bourbon.

I also realize I'm splitting hairs and playing Devil's advocate. I'm also not a lawyer so when I say "legal fact" take it with a grain of salt.

Gillman
02-17-2011, 13:33
I can see why Wade is asking though because if the bourbon is extracted using water and pressure, the water didn't form part of the aging. True, you can add water to reduce proof upon bottling, but is that the same thing?

Yet, I understand Jack Daniels extracts whiskey from the interior of the barrel frames (i.e., once emptied after aging) with water and uses the diluted whiskey to reduce barrel proof to bottling proof, thereby incurring a saving to the extent of the added alcohol. If this is the case, it must be then that adding extracted whiskey albeit diluted with water is considered okay. The rules are pretty general too and probably allow for a range of interpretations...

What I am wondering is, is this what the Devil's Cut is, essentially?

Gary

callmeox
02-17-2011, 13:33
By law (KY or federal, not sure) barrels must be rinsed at least once after dumping. Whenever I have observed this rinsing, the water goes in to the dump trough.

My source: I asked about the rinse at Four Roses and was told that it was required by law. My guess is that it cuts down the level of flammable alcohol vapor in the barrels and makes them safer to transport.

If it legal to dump the rinse into the trough and bottle the result as bourbon, I don't see why the same liquid can't be sold as bourbon as long as it meets the proof requirements.

Gillman
02-17-2011, 13:40
That makes sense, Scott, added to what Chuck was saying earlier, that is probably the answer.

Gary

cowdery
02-17-2011, 16:14
I doubt the statement that rinsing is required by law. It's certainly not in the federal regs and I don't know of any body of state law, Kentucky or otherwise, that controls distillery operations that closely. If it is required it's a safety issue but that seems far fetched to me. Besides, it just makes sense to do it in terms of product yield. They hardly have to be required to do something whose sole effect is to give them more product to sell.

At to Wade's contention, there is also no law that says you can't "use a process to get that out instead of just draining it." There is nothing that says or suggests that you can only drain the barrel and can't do anything else to extract more whiskey from it.

If a process used some substance other than water there would be a problem if the substance remained in the whiskey, but since water is a component part of whiskey and the only limitation on adding water is labeling-related (anything bottled at less than 40% ABV must be labeled 'diluted'), you can do just about anything you want with plain water.

Since everything except barrel proof products contains added water, Wade's contention is clearly wrong, since why would it matter where or how the added water is introduced? They could, for example, top off the barrels with water before dumping them.

You should understand that Wade's Bourbon Purity Laws generally are not in effect on this planet.

The idea of extracting as much whiskey as possible from the barrel is nothing new. What's new in Beam's case it that they came up with a way to make a product out of it. It's much like Four Roses being able to make different products with their different recipes. In this case it's the same recipe but isolating these dregs and adding them back in enough quantity to affect taste, that's the innovation.

As Fred says, their process uses heat, water and motion, so probably less water than JD's process, producing something with a distinctive flavor that is concentrated enough to flavor whiskey. It's probably significantly less than barrel proof so it's used partly as flavoring and partly as dilution water.

My assumption is that this is something they're doing with all dumped barrels to increase yield. It's a bonus that they are also able to use it to create a cool new product.

So why now? Robotics has made it possible to large-scale automate processes like this. I'm basing this on having seen the JD operation. There's an operator but his job is mostly to watch and hit the "off" switch if anything starts to go hinky. Also, whiskey is more "dear" right now than it has been in probably 40 years. Since you can sell every drop at a good profit, you can afford to spend a little money to squeeze out that last drop.

squire
02-17-2011, 16:21
Gary it seems to me it would be the same presuming water from the same source was used.

squire
02-17-2011, 16:24
A thought occurs, if Daniels is using a recapture process on its dumped barrels wouldn't Brown Forman have something similar going on for their other brands.

cowdery
02-17-2011, 17:04
A thought occurs, if Daniels is using a recapture process on its dumped barrels wouldn't Brown Forman have something similar going on for their other brands.

It's probably just a volume issue. Daniel's sells millions of cases a year. ET is probably more than a million, less than two. Forester and Woodford are each less than 200,000, I'm guessing, so the difference is volume.

They also have a lot of second use for their barrels, with Canadian Mist, Herradura Tequila, etc., they may have different second use specs. There are a lot of considerations.

squire
02-17-2011, 17:14
Chuck I was mentally lopping together Canadian Mist and all the other brands BF owns/makes or has a hand in the production cycle. A thread running through that thought was musing over whether the extraction process might be more effective on second or third use barrels.

Gillman
02-17-2011, 19:04
Sounds like hot water might be injected into barrels under pressure to extract whiskey which a light rinsing won't take out. I can see what Wade is suggesting given the vagueness of the industry regs, it's a plausible argument in my view given also that the resident bourbon in the wood might not have the character of "normal" bourbon - it might be more tannic for example. But you can look at it the other way too and I'd incline toward the latter, as I said earlier, even if rincing is not mandated by law, because it makes sense economically and possibly from an environmental point of view (less vapours emitting into the atmosphere). If it makes sense from these viewpoints, I think the rules would need to be more clear to prohibit the practice than they are. I would think this is the line of thought that was pursued to justify the practice, or something close to it.

But I don't find Wade's suggestions outlandish certainly.

Gary

wadewood
02-17-2011, 20:14
Wade's Bourbon Purity Laws generally are not in effect on this planet.....Wade's contention is clearly wrong

I have been chewed up and spit out, now formally known as being Cowderized.

Virus_Of_Life
02-17-2011, 20:19
I have been chewed up and spit out, now formally known as being Cowderized.

It's ok Wade, you were just doing your job as "Mr. Anal Retentive Bourbon Drinker." And I for one appreciate it.

ILLfarmboy
02-18-2011, 16:21
I see where Wade is going. I think.

It is the process that creates wood extractives beyond aging and dumping rinsing and re-dumping that gives me pause.

If a five year old can be made to taste woodier, more like a seven year old, by treating the empty barrel in 'unnatural" ways, vacuum or high pressure extraction, its sort of like making tea in your cappuccino maker to squeeze more flavor out of the tea leaves.

Is this really what we want? Would otherwise identical products, one enhanced by this extraction process, and one just a bit older, taste identical, or would the more natural product taste better?

cowdery
02-18-2011, 16:32
I'm pretty sure Wade can take a little ribbing from me. It's not his first rodeo. He's also a smart guy who realizes the limits of his conjecturing, but this is how rumors get started.

The thing is, there is nothing in any regs that suggests, even vaguely, that what Wade proposes is correct. It's made up out of whole cloth. If someone thinks there is something there, cite to it.

I'm sure some details will emerge as time goes on.

Personally, I think Beam is on very secure ground with this, but there are other things going on around the industry, especially on the mirco side, that make many of us wonder what they're drinking, or smoking, over at TTB, because they have made some odd decisions. As one industry insider said to me recently, "the TTB is out of control."

whskylvr
02-18-2011, 19:46
I can add a little note - we were told that they shake the barrel. Maybe they use water, control the temp somehow and shake it until they get everything they can out of the barrel.

pepcycle
02-19-2011, 10:34
Let me see if I understand the logic.
If the natural heat-cool cycles of the warehouse squeeze out the whiskey, its OK, but if the bung plug is removed it changes the rules.
Whiskey is Whiskey, in the wood or not. The distillery is paying tax on it, in the wood or not, and they own it. Leaving it in the barrel was like mining gold from the ocean. Yeah its there, but wasn't practical or profitable until now.
There is no artificiality, addition etc. Its just recovery.

ILLfarmboy
02-19-2011, 13:19
Let me see if I understand the logic.
If the natural heat-cool cycles of the warehouse squeeze out the whiskey, its OK, but if the bung plug is removed it changes the rules.
Whiskey is Whiskey, in the wood or not. The distillery is paying tax on it, in the wood or not, and they own it. Leaving it in the barrel was like mining gold from the ocean. Yeah its there, but wasn't practical or profitable until now.
There is no artificiality, addition etc. Its just recovery.

In my mind whether someone might call it "artificial" would depend on whether the heating of the barrel exceeds what would naturally occur as part of atmospheric conditions, the same goes for positive and negative pressures inside the barrel. Whiskey is whiskey, in the wood or not, but if someone were to set the freshly dumped barrels in a vacuum chamber and pull a vacuum, the whiskey recovered, I'm assuming, would contain higher levels of tannins and other wood extractives than any natural process, more age or simple rinsing the barel with water, might yield.

Edited to add: And no, Chuck, I'm not arguing or even suggesting the regs say any of this can't be done.

squire
02-19-2011, 19:24
Its my barrel and I'll squeeze if I want to.

ErichPryde
02-20-2011, 07:23
Its my barrel and I'll squeeze if I want to.

Agreed. Isn't the whole point of free market capitalism to find all the loopholes and use them? :skep:


The whiskey removed under "duress" may be diluted under 80 proof, but it is then added back to the same exact whiskey and the proof jumps higher than 80. Regs say it just has to be whiskey from the same distillery to be straight, right?...

Maybe there are a bit more tannins. if it makes for a new and interesting product, who cares? Some distillers are using heated warehouses these days anyway to "accelerate" aging and I don't see a huge difference.

squire
02-20-2011, 10:15
Good point Erich, heating warehouses goes back quite a while. I don't recall my sources but the practice is certainly not recent.

cowdery
02-20-2011, 17:37
E. H. Taylor patented the process for heating whiskey warehouses in the 19th century. His first heated warehouse is now the warehouse at Woodford Reserve.

The law is silent about warehouse heating.

Straight bourbon can be the product of more than one distillery as long as they're all in the same state. The more restrictive designation Erich may be thinking of is bottled-in-bond.

The bottom line is that there is nothing in the rules to even suggest that TTB might look askance at this extraction process. That's why I gave Wade a tweak. His objection is completely made up, pure fantasy. There's nothing in the rules that even suggests a potential problem.

squire
02-20-2011, 17:59
That's the thought I was trying to recall, Taylor and warehouse heating, my reference books are in a box in storage and the mental hard drive skips occasionally. My introduction to the process was during a tour of the Old Forester distillery in 1971.

cowdery
02-20-2011, 18:03
Brown-Forman and Buffalo Trace do it. That might be it. Can't think of any others off hand. It's only practical if the warehouse is stone (i.e., Woodford) or masonry (BT, BF). It's not practical in a steel-clad, which is what most of the warehouses are, because they're not well-enough insulated.

squire
02-20-2011, 18:36
Didn't think it had caught on with the others. My tour guide in 1971 at the Louisville distillery, himself a middle aged employee there, emphasized the warehouse heating effect on the aging whisky. He also told us Early Times was aged two years there then shipped to Indiana for a further aging. When I asked if the Indiana warehouse was heated he changed the subject.

ILLfarmboy
02-20-2011, 20:38
Agreed. Isn't the whole point of free market capitalism to find all the loopholes and use them? :skep:


The whiskey removed under "duress" may be diluted under 80 proof, but it is then added back to the same exact whiskey and the proof jumps higher than 80. Regs say it just has to be whiskey from the same distillery to be straight, right?...

Maybe there are a bit more tannins. if it makes for a new and interesting product, who cares? Some distillers are using heated warehouses these days anyway to "accelerate" aging and I don't see a huge difference.

The point of free market capitalism is to give entrepreneurs free rein to provide the market with products the market wants. We don't have a completely 'Laissez-faire' free market. (I take your remark as a slam against capitalism.)

It depends on the particulars of the process we are discusing, but, I don't see where heated wharehouses are analogous, unless the process of extraction never exceeds what would occur under natural atmospheric conditions. That may very well be the case. (I'm assuming here that heated warehouses mimic the Kentucky climate, just on a more compressed time scale, and not that of the planet Venus).

I want to reiterate that I'm in no way suggesting that anything that the regs are silent on is in any way verboten. Hell, back-engineered alien technology from the supposed Roswell crash could be used to extract extra tannins and vanilins from the red layer as part of this process and that would be perfectly legal. I'm assuming the regs are silent on that, too.

I do, however, in my own mind, make a distinction between using techniques and new technologies to mimic natural processes/traditional means and those that go beyond mimicry. Those that go beyond such mimicry and would have been unthinkable or impossible for the authors of the regs to envision, seem like, well, it seems like cheating. But its not even that that bothers me. It is the potential for a product that is different or in subtle ways inferior, something you wouldn't notice if you drown your whiskey in Coke, the way most indiscriminate consumers do.

It is a very poor analogy, but I can't help but think about the way I've heard some people eschew pressure cookers because they cook the food in water but above the boiling point by cooking under pressure. I don't know what their theory is. If doing so somehow changes the structure of proteins and fats, or maybe they just want to be Luddites?

wadewood
02-21-2011, 09:54
I like to argue and definitely can take the ribbing. It was not my intent to start a rumor, but only to have a discussion of what crosses the line and still be called Straight Bourbon. Chuck states there is nothing in the TTB's that looks at extraction process. There are a couple of sections of TTB's The Beverage Alcohol Manual that I call into question:

Ch1. Label Information - Section 8 - TREATMENT WITH WOOD
“COLORED AND FLAVORED WITH WOOD _________” (insert chips, slabs, extracts, etc., as appropriate) is required on labels to indicate treatment with wood
• APPLICATION
Applies only to whisky and brandy treated – other than through contact with oak containers – with wood:
In any manner or form, either directly or indirectly, e.g., chips, slabs, extracts, etc. At any point during the production or storage process, up to and including the time of bottling.

Ch4. Class and Type Designation 4-12 -IMITATION DISTILLED SPIRITS
Any class and/or type of distilled spirits (except cordials, liqueurs and specialties marketed under labels which do not indicate or simply that a particular class and/or type of distilled spirits was used in their manufacture) to which has been added any whisky essence, brandy essence, rum essence or similar essence or extract which simulates or enhances or is used in the particular product to simulate or enhance the characteristics of any class and/or type of distilled spirits

So, labeling requirements takes us all the way to bottling, which would include extraction. I don't know what process Jim Beam is using to get the Devil's Cut. I will state my opinion that normal rinsing with water and adding this back to product is within rules. But at what point does extraction process, if ever, does the result equal to an extract? And what exactly is an extract or whisky essence? Does drawing additional flavors out a barrel that is beyond standard rinsing "enhance the characteristics" of Devil's Cut? That is pretty much what Jim Beam's marketing implies.

Source - http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam.shtml - TTB's The Beverage Alcohol Manual

FYI - I do look forward to buying and tasting this and commend Beam for making this.

wadewood
02-21-2011, 10:14
Of note - one can apply for a special TTB designation, such as the case of Makler's 46 label of "Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey Barrel-Finished With Oak Staves". So if an extraction process goes beyond normal business practices, I think a designation could be setup.

cowdery
02-21-2011, 10:17
You raise an interesting point about extracts and without knowing exactly what Beam is doing, it's hard to argue either way. There is a bit of misreading here, though, in that it is not the intention to "enhance the characteristics" of the product that raises an extraction process to something impermissible. Also, the word "extract," meaning something separately created that is added to the product, should not be conflated with extraction as a process. Opening the bung hole and inverting the barrel is "extraction," after all. Since water is all that is added and added water is permitted in an unlimited way, I think we're within bounds.

wadewood
02-21-2011, 11:02
OK, so I come up with a new method of extraction. It involves just water and the wood barrel and extraction process. I grind up the barrel add water to make slurry and then place into a hi speed centrifuge and remove this liquid. Am I still within bounds?

pepcycle
02-21-2011, 11:41
Now you've gone and given them another idea!!!

If the barrels weren't so valuable, I bet they wood (intended).

I think we're on the verge of a new product here.

Maybe they could just do a D&C on the inside of the barrel and use that in Wade's product which I will call the "LaLanne's Cut".

Combining the Farmboy and Wade's theory, we could disassemble the barrels and then put them in a pressure cooker, capturing the essence as it evaporates and condensing. I might have to call that "Giada's Cut"

Josh
02-21-2011, 12:26
Now you've gone and given them another idea!!!

Combining the Farmboy and Wade's theory, we could disassemble the barrels and then put them in a pressure cooker, capturing the essence as it evaporates and condensing. I might have to call that "Giada's Cut"

I'm more of a fan of Nigella's cut.

EDIT: Visual needed

11899

pepcycle
02-21-2011, 12:35
I was thinking Giada because of the cooking reference, but I guess the Nigella thing because of "The Barrels" and "Steam" works just as well.

Gillman
02-21-2011, 13:31
Wade (and many others here) would have made great lawyers!

Gary

cowdery
02-21-2011, 13:58
I'll give a lawyerly answer: "It depends."

(Note what Brown-Forman is doing with Collingwood (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15423).)

Aside from making a case, Wade (or anyone), and playing devil's advocate for Devil's Cut, do you personally feel this is out-of-bounds? Does it, in fact, offend your standards of bourbon purity?

SBOmarc
02-21-2011, 14:24
I will leave it to others to take offense. I also have read that because it is Beam that there is less interest or excitement. Although I found that humorous it does make me wonder if the same reactions would have been voiced if other distillers were doing the same.

What happened to the term that there is no " better or worse"..just different. Well this is different to be sure. I will wait to taste it, which in the end is all that really concerns me.

Gillman
02-21-2011, 14:24
I would say not in this case (i.e., the practice is within the bounds of what I'd regard as reasonable from a "bourbon whiskey" standpoint). The bourbon is in the wood. It resulted from normal maturation. It has a value. Its seepage through vapour is at the very least, an unnecessary emission. The point made earlier about cycling is a good one. This practice is just an extension of that.

However, at some point, the line would have to be drawn. And really, this is no different than any other legal issue. In the 1950's, a legal philosopher, I think H.L.A Hart, stated that legislation had a penumbra of uncertainity. It was greater or lesser in each case, depending on the circumstances. I'd say here, the practice is okay, but Wade's example of grinding up probably would not be okay. It sounds to me too removed from the idea of maturation and extraction as envisaged by the regs and bourbon whiskey history. But still I'd like to see the full arguments on either side before deciding how I'd come out on it.

What I find interesting is this little area here, which has invited useful and indeed creative lawyerly-style comment by many, is just one of countless, millions, of issues of applying written language to a specific problem. People here are familiar with the regs and so can argue it in a knowledgeable or at least plausible way. All the law is like that though, from Constitution to state or provincial statute to local ordinance - not to mention the common law. Figuring out what the law means is a combination of trying to understand what was meant in circumstances often not envisaged (or expressly) when the law was passed. It is a process, a predictive one, not a foregone conclusion... Of course I am speaking of cases not crystal clear, but that is typical of many instances of applying written rules to particular facts.

Gary

squire
02-21-2011, 16:31
Gary one of my favorite appellate judges commented "The Law means what we say it means".

As for whisky I'll buy it however they make it and if I like it I'll buy it again.

SBOmarc
02-21-2011, 16:39
I'm more of a fan of Nigella's cut.

EDIT: Visual needed

11899

I know that this is a bit off topic. but as much as I like Giada, she is not even in Nigella's class.

squire
02-21-2011, 16:46
If Nigella makes it it's above reproach and I will even volunteer to sit, watch and sample the results.

Gillman
02-21-2011, 17:02
Well, that is one way to put it Squire (re the appeal judge's comment), he or she was exaggerating for effect, but there is a certain truth there. Still, it is all reined in, by the words, by the process including appeals, by reasonable expectations, by industry history and practice. It's all a process, is how I view, a way to achieve social goals and mediate social conflict. I hope this doesn't sound cynical to people, it's not meant to be. The alternatives are less appealing. This does not mean the codes can't be written better or worse, and I suspect if the whiskey standards were written today they would be longer. But too long is no good. We don't want them looking like the tax codes...

Gary

squire
02-21-2011, 17:11
God no, simpler is better but that approach is inimical to the bureaucratic rule making temperament.

craigthom
02-21-2011, 21:30
Gary one of my favorite appellate judges commented "The Law means what we say it means".

As for whisky I'll buy it however they make it and if I like it I'll buy it again.

In this case, the law means what the TTB says it means.

ErichPryde
02-21-2011, 21:51
Brad,

no slam against capitalism. I am a capitalist, through and through (truly). My comment was simply supposed to mean "if it makes them money and people like it, what's the big deal?" Didn't mean for it to be taken as more, but I should have thought about my words more carefully considering that I have participated in some of the muckery in other forums. :cool:

PaulO
02-22-2011, 04:44
As to Chuck's question, is this out of bounds? I'd probably say no, it's fine. Not knowing exactly what they are doing, my guess is add a little water to a just dumped barrel, warm it up, then use something like a shop vac to empty what is inside. They probably don't get much per barrel. It's only worth the trouble due to the sheer volume of barrels they have. I don't think it's like alchemy going on. In the end I'll wait to taste and see. This product is just a variation on regular JB. If they are wanting to expand some product lines, how about a bonded version of Old Overholt? :grin:

cowdery
02-22-2011, 08:01
One aspect of legal interpretation is purpose. What is the law's purpose? The purpose of the labeling rules we're discussing is to ensure that people get what they think they are getting.

Gillman
02-22-2011, 09:39
I agree, and if their expectation would not exclude bourbon with some extra squeezed out of the barrel, why should the law prevent that? It may even be win-win, the extra may have some extra wood/richness which can enhance the product. So I have no problem with this but recognize still that you can make different arguments plausibly without necessarily attaching myself to their conclusion.

By the way I agree with Paul that a barrel proof rye is in order from Beam, it's time guys!

Gary

pepcycle
02-22-2011, 11:03
Out of Bounds?

No.

I think the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

If it doesn't taste better than a similarly priced, aged, proof etc or does not provide some unique complexity or character, I will choose not to buy it.

Too many of us here believe the crap on labels about stills in the woods, streams of pristine waters and hundred year old recipes.

The product should stand on its own in some way to justify its existence.

If that's price, OK, but don't charge me more for Devil's Cut than Beam White if Beam White is better and cheaper.

squire
02-22-2011, 17:41
That's what I was saying Craig, the decision stands until greater authority orders otherwise.

BMartin42
02-22-2011, 20:05
The product should stand on its own in some way to justify its existence.

If that's price, OK, but don't charge me more for Devil's Cut than Beam White if Beam White is better and cheaper.


Exactly. Throw it out there and let the market decide. I love the new initiatives and seeing some go over extremely well, such as FR Mariage, and some flop (think Woodford MC).

There are bourbons on the market that I would pay twice the asking price. There are also bourbons that I wouldn't give 1/4 of what they want. I am excited to try this new Beam at about $25-30 and then I will decide from there. If I/we don't think it is worth it, then it will go bye-bye. If it is as good as Chuck indicated on his blog, and as I am anticipating, then it will be around a long time.

squire
02-22-2011, 20:25
More wood effect in a 6 yr old, yeah, I'd go for that if I don't have to pay too much for the ride.

CorvallisCracker
02-22-2011, 20:28
Nothing against it in principle. It's not like it's cherry extract or caramel coloring or honey or....

Comes down to taste. Some of these experiments don't work as well as hoped, MM 46 being a case in point.

ILLfarmboy
02-22-2011, 20:45
Nothing against it in principle. It's not like it's cherry extract or caramel coloring or honey or....

Comes down to taste. Some of these experiments don't work as well as hoped, MM 46 being a case in point.

Did I miss something. Are sales of Maker's 46 falling? I thought it was doing quite well.

I like maker's 46.

smokinjoe
02-22-2011, 21:17
Did I miss something. Are sales of Maker's 46 falling? I thought it was doing quite well.

I like maker's 46.

I must have missed it, too. Regardless, of sales, (and I don't know what they may be) I really like MM46. I think MM's new expression is terrific. I'm sure that Scott must be speaking of his own personal preference. But, as we always say, YMMV.

CorvallisCracker
02-23-2011, 08:43
I must have missed it, too. Regardless, of sales, (and I don't know what they may be) I really like MM46. I think MM's new expression is terrific. I'm sure that Scott must be speaking of his own personal preference. But, as we always say, YMMV.

Of course I'm speaking of personal preference. After all, Red Stag is a great commercial success as well.


Great, now I've offended the Red Stag fans as well.

SBOmarc
02-23-2011, 09:05
Of course I'm speaking of personal preference. After all, Red Stag is a great commercial success as well.


Great, now I've offended the Red Stag fans as well.

Ok Red Stag peeps. Now is the time to show your loyalty and individualism. Time to speak up!

Beam is paying Kid Rock for this, C'mon.

Josh
02-23-2011, 10:36
Ok Red Stag peeps. Now is the time to show your loyalty and individualism. Time to speak up!

Beam is paying Kid Rock for this, C'mon.

My wife likes it in coke. A lot. 'Nuff said.:bigeyes:

squire
02-23-2011, 11:58
I can just imagine the team sitting around a table tweaking the formula to blend with Coke classic rather than diet.

Rotgut
02-23-2011, 14:17
Wow, what a great thread.

To answer Chuck's question of whether it's out of bounds - it doesn't seem like it to me.

Will I try it? Yes. I want to love it. I'll buy the first bottle I see. I generally like Beam's products and I'm glad they're introducing more. Someone above said that introducing more lines could only be good and I agree. But I'm not counting on being blown away (I want to be, though). If it's just Beam selling a 6-year product for an 8-year price, good for them and I hope it sells well, but I may or may not buy it again.

Mike

cowdery
02-23-2011, 16:01
Based on something Fred Noe said in his letter, I think Kid Rock may be involved in this too.

Beam has indicated they may use a quote from me, in which I commend them for betting the flagship brand on this kind of stuff. It's gutsy. Red Stag is out of bounds for most people here, which is fine, but Devil's Cut is more in our wheelhouse. For the Kid Rock crowd they all work, as do Jim Beam white, green and black.

Back when Beam didn't really have any brands other than Jim Beam, the only products that bore the full Jim Beam name were white label and Jim Beam Rye. Everything else was "Beam's." When they converted "Beam's Black Label" to "Jim Beam Black Label" it was a big deal.

Yes, Beam has line extension fever. That they are doing it with their top brands tells me the decision was made at the highest levels of the company. They're also doing it with some of their non-whiskey products. They recently calved Hornitos off of Sauza to create a separate 100% agave tequila line. It's a good strategy in an expanding market and probably could have been predicted from their recent increases in production capacity.

Maybe we'll see that Basil Hayden BIB after all.

AbbieNormal
03-14-2011, 12:37
I live in Bardstown and know people involved in this. They are currently making a building that will house a machine to 'rock' the barrels. What they normally do after emptying the barrels is rinse them with water then sell them to a barrel distributor. What they will do now is partially fill the barrels with water, rock them on this machine for 45 minutes, then capture the water/bourbon mix and use THAT to cut their whisky instead of straight water. That will be what is marketed as 'The Devi'ls cut'. Yes, it is marketing and a play on the Angle's share. It is also a green initiative to recapture the water that would normally be dumped and have to be treated before it is sent to the local sewer system.

Gillman
03-14-2011, 13:07
So is it similar then to what Brown Forman do for Jack Daniels?

Gray

AbbieNormal
03-14-2011, 13:24
So is it similar then to what Brown Forman do for Jack Daniels?

Gray

Not sure what BF does. Just know what the people at the Clermont plant are telling me.

Gillman
03-14-2011, 14:19
Well, I understand that for some time, at the Jack Daniel's distillery, water is used to extract absorbed, residual alcohol from the barrel and B-F uses this to dilute to bottling proof, the dumped whiskey. I am not sure (there has been some discussion here) how intensive the process is used by B-F, but the point being, the resultant dilute mixture is used to bring a barrel down to proof, not as the source of the whiskey itself. Devil's Cut in other words sounds similar in this respect, it is not, if I've got this right, comprised only of whiskey extracted from the barrel by the method you described.

Gary

callmeox
03-14-2011, 20:27
It is also a green initiative to recapture the water that would normally be dumped and have to be treated before it is sent to the local sewer system.

I think the "green" aspect may be a bit of marketing fantasy.

Whenever I've witnessed barrels being dumped, the dump-water rinse-dump cycle has taken place over the same trough. I've never seen the rinse water get dumped anywhere else.

cowdery
03-17-2011, 12:29
It sounds very similar to what Daniel's is doing, with the addition of agitation and, I'm told, heat.

I'm also skeptical of any 'green' claims regarding this, as none of the water involved in these processes has ever gone back into the environment. Their main wastewater issue, unless they're flushing spent mash (most don't), is temperature. The water is generally too hot to release back into the environment.

harshest
03-17-2011, 13:29
A review from Drinkhacker.com (http://www.drinkhacker.com/2011/02/25/review-jim-beam-devils-cut-bourbon/). Pretty cool looking bottle.

As for their rating, they gave JBB a B+, Red Stagg a B, and JB Distillers an A-

Gillman
03-17-2011, 18:10
Well, the review sounds good, and the bottle is attractive. To get noticeable extra richness, I wonder if the addition is less dilute than the process mentioned to date would suggest. I guess it depends how concentrated they decide to make it - maybe heat and agitation allow for a less dilute mixture than would otherwise be the case.

Gary

ILLfarmboy
03-17-2011, 19:15
I think the "green" aspect may be a bit of marketing fantasy.


I'm reminded of the 'Penn & Teller: Bullshit' episode that covered this sort of thing.

Lost Pollito
03-17-2011, 20:01
I'm reminded of the 'Penn & Teller: Bullshit' episode that covered this sort of thing.
You mean this one Brad?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk0K1zgCDtE
Sorry for the drift. FWIW, I really liked the sample I tasted. It has a wonderful nose.

HighTower
05-05-2011, 17:25
So has anyone seen this yet? It is supposedly in selected markets......KY is out as they don't ship. Binny's don't have it....so I can't order from them. Fred Noe is out here in Brisbane on June 1st and I want to sample this with him. If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated!

Scott

cowdery
05-05-2011, 18:55
If Binny's doesn't have it yet they will. I think it's a national rollout, but it's still rolling.

mrviognier
05-05-2011, 20:47
I had a chance to try this at the Chicago Whiskey Fest. While I have to admit I liked it a whole lot better than most of the Beam lineup, I can't say I'd run out and buy it.

The whole process reminds me of lees filtration in winemaking. After you siphon off (kinda like dumping) the wine out of the barrel, there's a whole lot of sediment...referred to as lees. The stuff has the consistency of runny pudding. Usually we'd dump this down the drain. One of the wineries I managed was fairly large...about 250,000cs. At that scale, it made sense to hire a special rig that could separate the wine from the solids of the lees.

The wine reclaimed from this process was not nearly as high a quality as the rest of the wine we produced...and we'd end up back-blending the resulting wine into many of our 'better' wines. The economic advantage of incorporating the process was sound, the qualitative result...not so much. I suspect the sheer size of their operation - coupled with Bill Newlands wine background - made this a no-brainer in their eyes.

Coincidentally, the winery I mention was later sold to Beam...long after I left.

wadewood
05-11-2011, 07:42
I meet a regional sales manager from Beam last night. I asked how the process worked. He commented the machine was along lines of a paint shaker that you see in hardware stores -of course sized for barrels. He also said national launch would be Memorial day weekend.

harshest
05-12-2011, 07:03
Interesting reviews they have posted on their website. I like the very last one the best.

http://www.jimbeam.com/devils-cut/reviews

Tucker
05-12-2011, 07:57
Does how The Bourbon Review "imagines" Devil's Cut tastes really qualify as a review?

Josh
05-12-2011, 13:11
Does how The Bourbon Review "imagines" Devil's Cut tastes really qualify as a review?

This is the sound of me not saying anything about Bourbon Blog.

kickert
05-12-2011, 16:09
This is the sound of me not saying anything about Bourbon Blog.

While there is a bourbon blog review there... the review in question comes from bourbon review.

Josh
05-12-2011, 16:43
While there is a bourbon blog review there... the review in question comes from bourbon review.

Yes. I'm fine with imaginary reviews just not imaginary journalists. Or humanitarians for that matter.

I'm just not saying anything about the Bourbon Blog one. Whoops, maybe I just did.

HP12
05-22-2011, 14:04
Saw JB Devil's Cut on the shelves of two Richmond, Virginia state run monopoly ABC stores yesterday. 750ml bottles going for about $26. I passed on buying a bottle as I await a tasting at a local bar or upcoming festival.

craigthom
05-25-2011, 16:07
I just got email promoting Devil's Cut, which was a nice change from when all Beam sent was NASCAR crap.

It included this line: "We never age our bourbons in anything but new charred American oak barrels."

Wait, I know who else uses nothing but new charred American oak barrels to make their bourbon: EVERYONE.

Josh
05-25-2011, 16:09
I opened my bottle last week. It's not bad. Reminds me of Booker's cut down to 90 proof.

ThomasH
05-25-2011, 20:09
I got a bottle of this tonight. Looking forward to trying it over the weekend!

Thomas

harshest
05-26-2011, 06:57
I just got a bottle yesterday, I enjoyed it. The $25 price tag seemed a little steep to me for what it is, but I still enjoyed it.

Ian S.
05-27-2011, 19:16
I typically do not like Beam products but I am oddly enough waiting for this to hit shelves in Texas.

gburger
05-27-2011, 22:43
I am looking forward to trying it as well.

Josh
06-07-2011, 11:59
According to the Jim Beam Twitter account, despite being NAS, Devil's Cut is about 6 y/o.

Pirate762
06-07-2011, 18:13
I picked up a bottle in NC this past weekend while visiting Maggie Valley. I have tried it and am not sure if I like it or not. It is similar to JB White (obviously I guess) but has some very different things going on inside. Its not that its bad I suppose, but it IS different.

I am going to try it again over the weekend and see what happens.

craigthom
06-08-2011, 15:11
This isn't about Devil's Cut specifically, but I couldn't find the existing copy with the title "Doh!" (that search doesn't work too well, because I know it's out there), and I didn't want to start a new one just for this:

I got email from Jim Beam today with the subject "Live Tunes and New Burbon!"

mrviognier
06-08-2011, 16:01
DOH!

Must be the Dan Quayle 'old English' version of the word.:grin:

mosugoji64
06-25-2011, 23:56
This has finally made its way to the Indianapolis area via Meijer stores if anyone's interested, the first I've seen of it. And they have it on sale for $23.

jburlowski
06-26-2011, 06:21
I've finally had a chance to try this and was surprised at how much I liked it. I find a strange mintiness at mid palate. Not sure I like it enough to buy another bottle... JBB is cheaper and, IMO, a better pour.

Bourbon Boiler
06-26-2011, 06:40
I heard from a friend last night that it was found in a bar on the North side last night. However, I'm not sure he knew where he was.

birdman1099
06-26-2011, 08:01
This has finally made its way to the Indianapolis area via Meijer stores if anyone's interested, the first I've seen of it. And they have it on sale for $23.

Let me know what your thoughts on it are....

birdman1099
06-26-2011, 08:02
I heard from a friend last night that it was found in a bar on the North side last night. However, I'm not sure he knew where he was.


I've been there.... :grin:

PaulO
06-26-2011, 12:55
I saw it in a Bloomington store yesterday. I believe the price was mid twenties.

birdman1099
06-26-2011, 13:02
I saw it in a Bloomington store yesterday. I believe the price was mid twenties.

You seem to be in bloomington alot.... Where do you go? We just bought a restaurant there and I am spending a lot of time in that town...

Bourbon Boiler
06-26-2011, 13:28
I've been there.... :grin:

Not as bad as it sounds. He was there for a wedding on his wife's side. He lives in Ohio and he wasn't driving, so he really didn't care where he was.

ebo
06-26-2011, 14:59
Not as bad as it sounds. He was there for a wedding on his wife's side. He lives in Ohio and he wasn't driving, so he really didn't care where he was.
I've been there, too. :grin:

rocky480
06-26-2011, 20:16
I found it on the shelves in MD. It was running $19.99 for a 750ml, but luckily before I made that purchase I saw they had 375ml bottles for $9.99. My impression from the only tasting, so far, was that it reminded me of Knob Creek with a bit less complexity and proof. I found it had little finish. Not bad, and very drinkable, but I doubt that I'll be purchasing another bottle.

mosugoji64
06-26-2011, 20:32
Let me know what your thoughts on it are....

I'm on my second pour right now and I have to agree with Rocky that it tastes like a weaker KC. It's not bad by any means, but for the money it needs more oomph. It drinks more like 80 proof than 90. I might be more apt to replace it for around $12-15, but not at the current price.

B.B. Babington
06-30-2011, 20:28
I liked it okay, but it's a bit rougher than some of the other distiller's products which is fine for me since I like the stronger robust flavor. For that profile, I much prefer the Knob Creek 120.

G.H.Adams
06-30-2011, 21:16
Devil's Cut is still a no show in my area which does not surprise me. I check my internet dealers nightly but so far no go. Someday I'll get lucky.

Bourbon Boiler
07-03-2011, 20:38
If someone requested a bourbon for shots, this would be a good pick. I just can't enjoy it for long when there are other options.

Lost Pollito
07-03-2011, 22:03
It's in Illinois on the shelves. I actually like it for the price.

StraightNoChaser
07-04-2011, 22:12
Boy they are pushing the hell out of this stuff in TX. Every store that stocked it gave it nearly as much shelf space as the rest of the Beam products combined!

MarkEdwards
07-05-2011, 04:36
Boy they are pushing the hell out of this stuff in TX. Every store that stocked it gave it nearly as much shelf space as the rest of the Beam products combined!

Hmm, I didn't see that - the two stores I visited had just the regular amount of shelf space. Maybe they are trying to get YOU to buy it? :lol:

I did pick up a bottle, just to, ahem, give it a shot. It is in my queue.

ethangsmith
07-05-2011, 16:10
Got my first bottle and I'm very pleased with it for the price. I would agree with it being like KC, only weaker. However, I've noticed it pulls in 2 separate directions. While it has some aggressive barrel flavors to it, the base distillate tastes sweeter and younger yet. I find it a good, soft alternative for a good value. I'll probably keep a bottle around for when friends are around.

Ian S.
07-05-2011, 20:18
Still have not seen this in Austin. I know that i probably won't like it, but I want to try it. Damn it!

G.H.Adams
07-05-2011, 20:56
Still a no show in my area but just found it listed at one of my online dealers. I guess it's time to pick up the phone. I'm looking forward to trying it but I hate to have to pay shipping.

To those of you out there with real liquor stores my hats off to you.

PaulO
07-06-2011, 05:07
I saw a well stocked end cap display (a sign and a couple of cases) in my local grocery store the other day.

NeoTexan
07-06-2011, 06:36
It was a Deal of the Day at our store at $22.

G.H.Adams
07-06-2011, 21:15
Well I ordered it today from one of my online dealers. Also included a bottle of Early Times 354 bourbon to help balance out the shipping charges.

PaulO
07-08-2011, 07:19
I'd be curious which one you end up liking better. I found Early Times 454 to be a pleasant surprize.

gburger
07-08-2011, 20:19
Just got a bottle. Not bad for the price. I find it just ok to have it neat, I put it in a mixer and liked it better.

G.H.Adams
07-08-2011, 21:06
PaulO

I'll let you know on the 12th which is when it is supposed to be delivered. I'm looking forward to trying the Devils Cut. I figure that the Early Times 354 bourbon can't be any worse than the Early Times Kentucky Whiskey which ain't good but is not all that bad for a mixer.

p_elliott
07-09-2011, 01:11
I bought a bottle a bottle of this yesterday it taste like dirty socks the rest of the bottle will most likely be used as drain cleaner. Life is too short to drink shitty whiskey.

MarkEdwards
07-09-2011, 09:00
I bought a bottle a bottle of this yesterday it taste like dirty socks the rest of the bottle will most likely be used as drain cleaner. Life is too short to drink shitty whiskey.

Maybe dirty-sock filtration is their secret. :skep:

To me, it tasted slightly musty, which I've come to associate with rye, with a nose of mown grass, ashes and Playdoh / modelling clay. The Playdoh component was pretty strong. Had a medium-length finish that was not unpleasant.

callmeox
07-09-2011, 13:12
I bought a bottle a bottle of this yesterday it taste like dirty socks the rest of the bottle will most likely be used as drain cleaner. Life is too short to drink shitty whiskey.

I hope that come gazebo time in September you can tell us how and when you learned the taste of dirty socks. :grin:

BourbonJoe
07-10-2011, 10:43
I drank some on Saturday. Pretty awful stuff.
Joe :usflag:

ethangsmith
07-10-2011, 13:01
Why do I like the stuff everyone hates and hate the stuff everyone likes?

Stu
07-10-2011, 15:24
Stu, mind sharing which store Fred Noe was at? I guess I missed it.. My guess, however, is that he was at Colonial?

jsbac

Sorry, I haven't been on line much lately. He was at Springhill.

Josh
07-10-2011, 18:30
Why do I like the stuff everyone hates and hate the stuff everyone likes?

Different strokes for different folks. I thought it was interesting and pretty good. But if someone dislikes Beam (and a lot of folks do), they're not gonna like Devil's Cut.

ethangsmith
07-10-2011, 19:15
I have to admit, I'm a "bottom and mid shelf" kind of guy. I have yet to have a Buffalo Trace product that I really like and it seems people look at that product line as if God himself makes it. I like most lower-end Beam and HH products (OGD, Overholt, Old HH BIB, Cabin Still, Pikesville, Mellow Corn, Rittenhouse). This new Devil's Cut pretty much falls right in where I seem to like my whiskey and I do enjoy the flavor. I find it unique and fairly easy to drink and yet a bit more flavorful than most other 90 proof basic whiskies of the same price.


Now what Beam NEEDS to do is come out with their white dog like Buffalo Trace and Heaven Hill did and call it "Angel's Share Whiskey" and sell the Devil's Cut and the Angel's Share in a gift set called "Heaven and Hell." I think it would certainly attract some attention and probably garner quite a few sales from the 21-40 age group.

G.H.Adams
07-10-2011, 21:18
That's the nice thing about taste. Everybody is different. If we all liked the same thing our choices would not be as vast and for me it would make for a dull place.

PaulO
07-11-2011, 08:00
I have to admit, I'm a "bottom and mid shelf" kind of guy. I have yet to have a Buffalo Trace product that I really like and it seems people look at that product line as if God himself makes it. I like most lower-end Beam and HH products (OGD, Overholt, Old HH BIB, Cabin Still, Pikesville, Mellow Corn, Rittenhouse)... Ethan, have you tried Weller Antique, Weller 12, Elmer T. Lee, Old Charter, or Sazerac? Those are the BT bottlings I would recomend. Their flagship bourbon I find ok, but sort of boring. Some of their other stuff; the prices start to get kind of crazy. I believe Chuck once said something to the effect that their experimentals were an experiment to see how much people would pay. :slappin: Having said that, I like all the products mentioned in the earlier post, except have never had Pikesvelle (but love Rittenhouse). I don't like Beam white label. Beam black label, and Knob Creek; I can take it or leave it (mostly leave it). I've said it before. Beam should re-introduce a bonded version of Overholt.

Parkersback
07-11-2011, 09:22
Beam should re-introduce a bonded version of Overholt.

From your lips to Jim Beam's ears.

moose
07-11-2011, 21:43
Just got some of this in at the store, looks pretty bad, have it priced at 19.99 this week only, but at that price I still think I'll pass. Just sounds awful.

mosugoji64
07-11-2011, 21:57
Just got some of this in at the store, looks pretty bad, have it priced at 19.99 this week only, but at that price I still think I'll pass. Just sounds awful.

It's really not bad. Just overpriced. A friend of mine who dislikes Beam in general tried it and enjoyed it.

tmckenzie
07-12-2011, 04:42
I have to admit, I'm a "bottom and mid shelf" kind of guy. I have yet to have a Buffalo Trace product that I really like and it seems people look at that product line as if God himself makes it. I like most lower-end Beam and HH products (OGD, Overholt, Old HH BIB, Cabin Still, Pikesville, Mellow Corn, Rittenhouse). This new Devil's Cut pretty much falls right in where I seem to like my whiskey and I do enjoy the flavor. I find it unique and fairly easy to drink and yet a bit more flavorful than most other 90 proof basic whiskies of the same price.


Now what Beam NEEDS to do is come out with their white dog like Buffalo Trace and Heaven Hill did and call it "Angel's Share Whiskey" and sell the Devil's Cut and the Angel's Share in a gift set called "Heaven and Hell." I think it would certainly attract some attention and probably garner quite a few sales from the 21-40 age group.


I have had jb white dog. Wierd stuff, very clean, but when you let it set out and open up, that yeasty funk come through. I loved it.

wadewood
07-12-2011, 07:26
I'm going to a Devil's Cut launch event in Houston on July 19th.

SBOmarc
07-12-2011, 09:08
I spied Devil's Cut at BevMo just yesterday. I saw the color, or lack of color and proceeded to just buy Eagle Rare SB.

G.H.Adams
07-12-2011, 21:14
I just finished a pour of Devils Cut which was delivered today. UPS managed to crush the box but the bottles were fine.

I don't know what to think about Devils Cut. It seems to me to be a higher proof JB Black. I did not get the strong oak flavor I expected. I'm not good at teasing out flavors but to me it leaned toward the Bakers profile. I will give the bottle some time to open up and try it again. I may like it better mixed than neat. I will say that it drinks easy for a 90 proof.

TBC
07-15-2011, 02:36
It's not bad, not memorable, but not bad. It's kinda like Beam Black's unrefined brother, has a slight burn that lingers for a short bit. I'd have it again, but I wouldn't seek it out, if that means anything.

wadewood
07-19-2011, 23:20
I'm going to a Devil's Cut launch event in Houston on July 19th.

If only it tasted as good as it looked.....

timd
07-20-2011, 16:31
Tastes like Beam White - which I haven't had in years, but can't seem to escape. It's not awful - maybe a touch too sweet for me. I do get the wood and it's definitely a cut above White - and probably closer to Black.

I don't get any KC or Bookers - because both of those are "pretty good" (to me). It was on sale for $18, so I bought a bottle... It'll last a while, but it's not terrible by any means - it's just very "Beam" in its flavor (which reminds me of drinking too much in college).

ebo
07-23-2011, 12:21
I just found a bottle of this in Ohio.

I agree with timd... it tastes like JBW to me, just a bit bolder. I won't buy it again.

BourbonJoe
07-23-2011, 12:44
It's not awful

I think it is.
Joe :usflag:

callmeox
07-24-2011, 08:50
I think it is.
Joe :usflag:

Yep, you told us as much on the 10th. Good to see that you are holding the line, Joe.

ethangsmith
07-25-2011, 09:19
Ethan, have you tried Weller Antique, Weller 12, Elmer T. Lee, Old Charter, or Sazerac? Those are the BT bottlings I would recomend. Their flagship bourbon I find ok, but sort of boring. Some of their other stuff; the prices start to get kind of crazy. I believe Chuck once said something to the effect that their experimentals were an experiment to see how much people would pay. :slappin: Having said that, I like all the products mentioned in the earlier post, except have never had Pikesvelle (but love Rittenhouse). I don't like Beam white label. Beam black label, and Knob Creek; I can take it or leave it (mostly leave it). I've said it before. Beam should re-introduce a bonded version of Overholt.

I have yet to have a BT product I like. I've tried basically all of those BT products and gave them away or dumped them. To me, every BT product I've ever had tastes like chemical cleaners and battery acid. I would take a bottle of Devil's Cut any day over BT products. I guess Devil's Cut was created for me!

jburlowski
07-25-2011, 16:51
I have yet to have a BT product I like. I've tried basically all of those BT products and gave them away or dumped them. To me, every BT product I've ever had tastes like chemical cleaners and battery acid.

Will you be posting your tasting notes on chemical cleaners and battery acid? :grin:

ethangsmith
07-25-2011, 17:32
Haha. No unfortunately. I just don't know what it is, but every Buffalo Trace product I try I dislike. One oddity was when I had a bottle of Eagle Rare it tasted "moldy" and very acidic. Outside that, all the other ones I've had just were rough and real acidic. It seems all the major producers have a certain flavor that is in all of their products. HH has an almost dry citrus tone, while Beam tends to have cinnamon and spice, and Brown-Forman products are very "wet" and leathery.

edo
07-29-2011, 07:33
I bought a bottle of this last night in Illinois on the way to a friend's house for dinner. $27+. I liked it, but I like Jim Beam Black 8 y.o. a little more.

(It's harder to find JBB 8 y.o. in Japan now, they're selling Jim Beam Black "Triple Aged". That's triple the 2 yr minimum bourbon age...:rolleyes:... so they're bottling JBB at 6 y.o. with sleek new bottle and label, ... and no, it's not as good as 8 y.o., at least to me. Sells for about $18 at the current exchange rate for 700 ml. Here's a 1 liter bottle on ebay for wealthy purchasers:

http://compare.ebay.com/like/330589846573?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

But back to Devil's Cut- It's very nice full-flavored Beamy bourbon, but way overpriced. I'd buy it again if I could find it for under $20.

Mattythebeer
08-17-2011, 00:08
I'd buy it again if I could find it for under $20.


just moved recently to new mexico and was happy to find this locally for $17 a bottle, also have my personal favorite- Knob Creek for 25, so im in heaven.

enjoyed the flavor though at only 90 proof, i was left wishing it was a tab stronger.

Brisko
09-09-2011, 14:35
I bought a 50ml of this the other day, fully prepared to hate it, and I ended up rather liking it. Enough that I would consider buying a 5th, even. I see it's on sale locally for $17 or $18....

On the other hand, I can get other decent whiskeys in the same age range for less: FC103, for instance, and older and better whiskeys like EC12 for about the same....

Still I like it far and away better than Beam Black and even the standard Knob Creek for that matter.

Roadsaw
09-09-2011, 17:08
Had some devils cut last night while watching the Packers game. Its alright but not one i will be pouring on a regular basis.

pepcycle
10-09-2011, 09:14
I finally got a bottle of this up here in NY and put it through its paces last night.

Side by Side with Jim Beam White, its clearly more aggressive up front with caramel, wood and tannin. The sweetness is Jim Beam Black as is the overall Beam signature.

The mid-palate goes flat a little and then leaves a lingering and somewhat drying finih. I'm not getting mustiness or grass, nor green corn or nasty bite, which is classic to JBW.
I like it. It's 3 more layers of complexity than JBW and not as forward as the KC, BH, Booker's, Baker's which are kind of extremes in 4 classes.

What it lacks is richness and mouthfeel of a longer aged whiskey.

I think they figured out how to add flavor but not the balance that comes with age.

I'll drink it all and then decide. My definition of a winner is buying a second bottle (or more)

RegChumpington
10-09-2011, 09:50
I didn't think it was bad, more just unremarkable... the nose was the most interesting thing about it and the palate and finish were just kind of bland, with maybe a hint of raw sugar sweetness. Definitely not offensive and probably a decent enough mixer.

When VOB is cheaper, I can't really say there's much to draw me to JBDC.

ILLfarmboy
10-09-2011, 09:55
I think they figured out how to add flavor but not the balance that comes with age.


I've seen it in my area. I haven't tried it because, as I figured and as you succinctly put, balance would be lacking. I figure it would sort of be like using tea leaves twice and blending the first and second run, with the second run using little water and some type of some mechanical extraction. Yeah, your gonna get more tannin and color, but at the expense of what?

Bourbon Boiler
10-09-2011, 16:51
I've seen it in my area. I haven't tried it because, as I figured and as you succinctly put, balance would be lacking. I figure it would sort of be like using tea leaves twice and blending the first and second run, with the second run using little water and some type of some mechanical extraction. Yeah, your gonna get more tannin and color, but at the expense of what?

I think you get more tannin and color, but you still don't get a lot. If JB White & JB Devil's Cut were the only two whiskeys in existence, the DC would obviously be a noticable step up. However, there are better options out there at the same price point.

Buffalo Bill
10-09-2011, 22:51
Anyone post any tasting notes on Devil's Cut? I just finished off my last bottle of Distiller's Series and loved it. I'd crack the bottle and put it away for a few months, fabulous.

Rotgut
10-10-2011, 10:31
After trying this for myself and reading the posts above, I agree it's not bad but for the money there are better bourbons available. If I shop around I can get KC for not much more than DC.

However, some points above, from members with better palates and more bourbon knowledge, made me think it's an interesting drink for curiosity's sake or in an academic way, the way white dog and 1-day whiskey are. They aren't expressions I'd buy often, but since I haven't ever worked in a distillery and may not ever get to visit one, that's my next best option to explore different aspects of bourbon, flavors, and processes. If Devil's Cut is a youngish whiskey, but displaying more of the flavors associated with close contact with the wood, it's valuable if only to illustrate that aspect of bourbon.

Mike

RegChumpington
10-10-2011, 19:15
Anyone post any tasting notes on Devil's Cut? I just finished off my last bottle of Distiller's Series and loved it. I'd crack the bottle and put it away for a few months, fabulous.

I'm not anyone special but here were my notes on it:


Jim Beam Devil's Cut 45% ABV
Nose: Initially shows up with some corn notes, as well as a slight clay-like earthiness. Light vanilla cream, moderate wood. Slight cherry note.
Palate: Light mouthfeel, slightly warming, the clay earthiness comes through. Fairly lightweight - not a lot of flavor on the palate. Gets somewhat bitter after a brief bit, with a vague vegetal note. Has a low-level new-make sweetness as well, with that unrefined sugar note.
Finish: Warm but fleeting. Light cherry note and moderate length, but it dries out and becomes just sort of indistinctly alcohol-like. Not strong though. Also has the new-make note on the finish with the certain grainy sugar.
Comment: There's just not much happening past the nose here. It's not bad - at all - but there's just not a lot to it. This is right on that cusp of C+/B- and if there was juuuust a little more to it it'd be safely into B range.
Rating: C+

(I grade on the LA Whiskey Society scale which just makes the most sense to me...)

Buffalo Bill
10-11-2011, 18:43
It's just hitting the shelves in MA and I'm trying my first shot of it. Right out of the bottle this stuff is ripe. Semi-unfiltered? Wood floating around and settling to the bottom, but not cloudy. This is some kind of impressive! Complex fruit and loads of it with a herbaceous slant and leather right off the top. Lots of earth, round with a mouthfeel that's highly unusual, almost like a cordial. It hits me in the teeth then surrounds the pallete without any serious aggression, more subtle and quick to finish. Not a dry ending... kind and sweet, lots of maple. Vanilla, oak, tobacco, allspice, and snappy lemon/orange peel in the nose. Rich chestnut color with good legs. Easy drinking. Chocolate. Undertones of black olive. It hits the back of our throat and comes up sharp through the nose without much around the gum line. Echoes of Brown-Forman & Heaven Hill. The boys at Beam are onto something quite remarkable and unique. BB

Buffalo Bill
10-11-2011, 18:54
Jim Beam Devil's Cut 45% ABV
Nose: Has a low-level new-make sweetness as well, with that unrefined sugar note. There's just not much happening past the nose here. It's not bad - at all - but there's just not a lot to it. This is right on that cusp of C+/B- and if there was juuuust a little more to it it'd be safely into B range.

-----

~You're right in there! It tends to go downhill fast-in-the-glass and ends up getting dusty. It's a bourbon suited for a younger palette. Good tannins, but it won't retain it's value long without a hit of nitro in the bottle. Gets thin towards the bottom of the glass and doesn't hold on. Rock candy, sugar water.

RegChumpington
10-11-2011, 22:45
Jim Beam Devil's Cut 45% ABV
Nose: Has a low-level new-make sweetness as well, with that unrefined sugar note. There's just not much happening past the nose here. It's not bad - at all - but there's just not a lot to it. This is right on that cusp of C+/B- and if there was juuuust a little more to it it'd be safely into B range.

-----

~You're right in there! It tends to go downhill fast-in-the-glass and ends up getting dusty. It's a bourbon suited for a younger palette. Good tannins, but it won't retain it's value long without a hit of nitro in the bottle. Gets thin towards the bottom of the glass and doesn't hold on. Rock candy, sugar water.

As a friend said, "I'm sure it mixes just fine." It'll be totally OK to have on the shelf during the holiday season. An interesting experiment at least and I'll tip the hat to Beam for giving it a go (and putting some SERIOUS bucks behind it).

Buffalo Bill
10-11-2011, 22:50
A definite desert bourbon... sweet.

Young Guns
10-14-2011, 18:36
I bought a bottle of it when it first came out. I was looking through the shelves trying to pick something new out and the clerk said that Beam had just come out with some new stuff. I had never had any Beam before so I figured "why not", and bought a bottle. At that time, it was the highest proof I had drank, and I liked it. It tasted okay neat, but it was much better as a mixer with Diet Dr Pepper. Don't think I'll buy another bottle of it, but from a new guy's standpoint, it was pretty good.

OscarV
10-15-2011, 03:11
I picked up a 50ml of it the other day.
Glad to be able to check it out.
It was OK but not going to get a 750ml, I think I will get another 50ml though.

pepcycle
10-15-2011, 09:12
@Buffalo Bill

I'm intrigued by your suggestion of solids in your bottle.

From what I know about the process, that's all but impossible.

Can you capture that in a photo?

I'm sure the Beam folks would be interested in that bottle.

Brisko
10-17-2011, 07:46
I picked up a 50ml of it the other day.
Glad to be able to check it out.
It was OK but not going to get a 750ml, I think I will get another 50ml though.

Funny, two 50 mls was enough for me, too.

Enoch
10-18-2011, 07:13
I tried it side-by-side with several Beam offerings and found it to be very close to Jacob's Well...a nice product i wish they had not discontinued.

dohidied
11-14-2011, 13:48
I was going to just get a 50ml of this to say I'd tried it, but then my girlfriend sent me a link to Beam's Bold Choice campaign at bzzagent.com and I signed up to see what I'd get. They sent me a $15 mail-in rebate for any Beam product with Beam on the label (eg: no small batch or OGD, damnit). So today, out of curiosity, I picked up a bottle of Devil's Cut for $20. My first sip was a wood bomb, but I'm warming up to it as I go. It's still super dry and woody, but the corn sweetness and a hint of rye spice are beginning to show through. I still think JBB is probably a better bourbon at a better price, but for $5 I'll give this a chance. But right now, I think it's probably going to end up like my Kirkland Signature Beam juice and get mixed and vatted.

Bourbon Boiler
05-13-2012, 11:57
I saw a commercial for DC today during the World Hockey Championships. I can't recall seeing Beam pushing this until now. "It's not for choir boys" was the closing.