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View Full Version : Who Likes White Dog?



cowdery
02-23-2011, 16:58
Most of us who have visited distilleries have tasted bourbon white dog. Buffalo Trace is the only major distillery to have released its bourbon white dog as a product. Corn whiskeys such as Georgia Moon have generally been the only other widely available white dogs. Many of us have posted that we wished white dog was more available.

You know the saying, be careful what you wish for ...

Now, thanks to the growing micro-distillery community, we have all kinds of white dog on the market, even more if we count the lightly-aged stuff.

Is there anyone who thinks there is still not enough white dog on the market?

So, how much white dog are you really drinking, relative to your consumption of aged whiskey? Would you say you enjoy white dog exclusively, frequently, occasionally, rarely, or never?

Yes, I said "enjoy" instead of "drink" on purpose.

How many different white dog products do you own? How often do you reach for one of them?

How do you drink your white dog?

squire
02-23-2011, 17:11
I own none, have no purchase plans and if gifted a bottle would use it as a mixer.

camduncan
02-23-2011, 17:45
I have two bottles of Georgia Moon Corn Whiskey (imported to Australia at a cost of about $65AU per bottle.) I find them to be a great reminder of the White Dog I sampled when touring the distilleries a few years ago. They are definately not something I drink on my own often, but for some reason I'm drawn to the smell and often nose it for comparison to whatever bourbon I'm drinking at the time.
I always bring them out at get-togethers with family & friends who drink bourbon. Even if they don't normally drink bourbon neat, people tend to find it a fascinating product to smell and taste and the Jam Jar packaging rates highly with everyone who sees it.
I have been intending to buy a bottle of Tuthilltown Spirits Corn Whiskey for a while now, more as a comparison point to the Georgia Moon and not because it will be something I'd gravitate towards drinking regularly.

callmeox
02-23-2011, 17:52
The stuff gives me instant heartburn and it feels like I've swallowed a steel wool pad.

Pass.

SBOmarc
02-23-2011, 17:52
I own none, have no purchase plans and if gifted a bottle would use it as a mixer.

I fall into this same category.

ratcheer
02-23-2011, 17:54
I have never had white dog. I did have some moonshine in the early 90's - I would not want to drink it again for any reason. It was like very bad vodka with a very strong "whang".

Tim

callmeox
02-23-2011, 18:01
I have never had white dog. I did have some moonshine in the early 90's - I would not want to drink it again for any reason. It was like very bad vodka with a very strong "whang".

Tim

It's got a little "whang" in it.

http://eighties.weebly.com/uploads/7/4/6/1/746191/3369067.jpg

kickert
02-23-2011, 18:42
I like White Dog in Bloody Marys. It really adds some good body/sweetness/flavor to a good spicy drink. Beyond that, it has its place in some mixed drinks, but I will be the first to admit it is a limited market.

T Comp
02-23-2011, 18:44
Same here at to never buying any or do I intend to. I have had the BT and some of the Kovel's which were interesting and tasty. Just not something I want to spend my hard earned money on.

barturtle
02-23-2011, 18:59
I quite like white dog, but sadly don't own much of it. Quite frankly most of it is way out of the range of prices I consider acceptable. Should you really have to pay $25 for a 375 of unaged distillate? That's just nuts.

Lost Pollito
02-23-2011, 19:50
I really like white dog, but the price keeps me from bringing them home. I have some obsk white dog that I love, as well as some Ardbeg new make, which I prefer to the regular Ardbeg expressions.

CaptainQ
02-23-2011, 21:20
I have a bottle of the BT version. I've tried it once and had some friends try it. I like it for what is in the bourbon making process, but it's not something I would ever buy again.

White Dog
02-23-2011, 21:39
I love White Dog, my wife loves White Dog, my kids love...

Oh wait, you mean white whiskey.:lol:

I have BT, Georgia Moon, Tuthilltown, and some Kovals. I like the Kovals, and don't care for the others. I like having the Kovals on hand for the intellectual exercise of examining "pure" forms of Rye and Wheat, so no, I don't love them.

I do agree with Kickert, in that I'll use Koval Whiskeys in place of Vodka, which I don't own. In the summertime, if my wife wants a vodka-lemonade, she'll get a Koval-lemonade.

sku
02-24-2011, 04:20
I have a half dozen or so bottles, mostly full. I generally taste them once and then they sit on the shelf. As a rule, I know longer buy unaged whiskey.

The only bottle I have that is close to finished is the BT which is the best of the lot. I like, particularly that it is cask strength. However, the reason it is close to empty is not so much that I drink it regularly as that I use it in tastings, and of course it is a 375 ml.

silverfish
02-24-2011, 06:05
...as well as some Ardbeg new make, ....

Is this readily available somewhere or was it something you tried at the Distillery?

dmarkle
02-24-2011, 06:28
I have a bottle of the BT version. I've tried it once and had some friends try it. I like it for what is in the bourbon making process, but it's not something I would ever buy again.

Exactly. It's definitely got the "wow" factor -- people who like bourbon are never expecting the strong smell of popcorn from the BT white dog -- it makes folks really appreciate what the barrel does. Like others have said, I use it more for nosing than for tasting. The BT is especially good to have, since you can easily draw a straight line from their white dog right to the aged and bottled bourbons that they sell.

harshest
02-24-2011, 06:40
I have only had the BT version of white dog and didn't care for it at all. I don't think I will be buying any other version anytime son.

nblair
02-24-2011, 07:38
I'm not drinking very much white dog compared to my consumption of aged bourbon (which isn't ALL that much anyways). I don't particularly enjoy it, it's more of a novelty thing. I'm glad I have had the opportunity to taste exactly what goes into the barrel at the proof it in which it usually goes in at (it makes me appreciate that barrel more and more). I only have the BT Mash Bill #1.

Lost Pollito
02-24-2011, 08:16
Is this readily available somewhere or was it something you tried at the Distillery?
Dr. Bill visited us and gave me a taste. It was really fantastic. Not available for purchase sadly.

IowaJeff
02-24-2011, 08:52
The only reason I would every buy a bottle is if I had a tasting. I enjoy having a taste side by side with a bourbon every now and again just to appreciate the difference. But a bottle of Evan Williams or (insert value bourbon here) costs $12 and is a whole heck of a lot better.

The bloody mary suggestion does intrigue me. If that is good it might make me keep a bottle in the freezer.

tmckenzie
02-24-2011, 10:32
I probably drink more white dog than anything else. We I do have a ready source in our glen thunder corn whiskey.

MikeK
02-24-2011, 10:58
I really enjoy white dog. I brings back fond memories of a distillery visit, and I do actually enjoy the flavor. That said, I would not want to drink it every day and so buying a whole bottle usually doesn't make sense. It would be very cool to be able to buy this in miniatures or 100ml bottles.

I bought a couple BT white dog bottles when they first came out and use them up by sharing with all my friends. Most people actually like it! I also gave one to my local favorite liquor store so they could pour for customers too.

I was able to get a sample of Makers white dog a year or so back and THAT was quite good.

kickert
02-24-2011, 11:01
I probably drink more white dog than anything else. We I do have a ready source in our glen thunder corn whiskey.

Yeah, I probably do too over the course of a typical day, but blending batch is not not quite the same as having a pour at the end of a day.

Leopold
02-24-2011, 12:12
I thought you might find it interesting, Mr. Cowdery, that the vast vast majority of White Dog is being used by high end bartenders. We've had a crew asking for the stuff for a few years now, and they're all bartenders. On premise is where there's any pull through, if that.

As you can see from this thread, that's how most consumers enjoy it--- in cocktails.

pepcycle
02-24-2011, 13:00
To me, white dog is cheap medical insurance.

Its the thrill of Moonshine without the potential consequences.


Its like riding an amusement park ride. The thrill without chance of death.

Novelty.

I don't particularly like it as a style or the flavors that are in it, but I recognize them and recognize that "good" white dog might lead to a better final product.

Am I going to buy Bourbon Futures (like Bourdeaux Futures) based on the early product.
Doubtul. (Even if it was an option)

Just my three cents.

imbibehour
02-24-2011, 16:43
I would say rarely, I bought it out of a curiosity more than anything as part of my education... and uh... scientific study... yeah that's it :)

No regrets though, although if I swing through West Virginia again I just may grab some more of it cause it just feels like the right thing to do...

Don't ask me why...

squire
02-24-2011, 16:53
The quest for scientific study and education is unending, we must persevere wherever the path may lead.

fussychicken
02-24-2011, 22:29
Wow, so much white dog hate. Why? Others find great pleasure in unaged agave distillates, unaged grape distillates, unaged sugar cane distillates, but no love for unaged cereal grain distillates?

OK so maybe corn and wheat aren't as sexy as an agave plant, but is that the only reason?

Just for the record, I have a bottle of BT white dog and High West's Silver Oat and like them both. I think the Silver Oat is great and am getting low on my bottle.

cowdery
02-24-2011, 22:55
How many people sip white tequila or white rum straight? The best use of un-aged spirits is in cocktails. That's becoming crystal clear the more I sample them.

fussychicken
02-24-2011, 23:20
To each his own I guess. One of the best spirits I had last year was a unaged mezcal made out of wild tobala agave that has a wonderful smokey complex flavor. And yes, I sip it straight.

I personally would love to see some experiments with different corn, wheat, and rye strains in an unaged distillate. Maybe when some of these other micros go bust I can pick up a still for cheap and try myself?

PaulT
02-25-2011, 07:49
When we first got into the distilling racket, I looked at white dog as more or less just something interesting. However, as time has gone by and I've tried other white whiskies, I've gained a much greater appreciation for ones that I like. Ours is white corn, so (to me), it has more of a floral, light corn flavor vs. a heavy "smack you in the face with an ear of corn" flavor. And, of course, there's the "Black Dog," that I continue to appreciate more as time goes by. The balance of smoke with the sweetness from the corn seems to go well together, but not everyone enjoys that heavy, smoky flavor, so I can understand when someone gets a funny look when they try it. Otherwise, Tom and I need to hook up sometime and swap juices.

callmeox
02-25-2011, 08:04
Tom and I need to hook up sometime and swap juices.

Hey, what you do on your own time is your business.

kickert
02-25-2011, 08:18
Hey, what you do on your own time is your business.

I was thinking the same thing... Let's keep this PG or at least PG-13.
:grin: :lol: :slappin: :lol: :grin:

imbibehour
02-25-2011, 09:51
To each his own I guess. One of the best spirits I had last year was a unaged mezcal made out of wild tobala agave that has a wonderful smokey complex flavor. And yes, I sip it straight.

I personally would love to see some experiments with different corn, wheat, and rye strains in an unaged distillate. Maybe when some of these other micros go bust I can pick up a still for cheap and try myself?

Don't get me wrong, I did buy it. I certainly didn't HATE it... but man I have lots of opened whiskey to finish... :grin:

squire
02-25-2011, 15:13
fussy, it's not hate, just disinterest.

squire
02-25-2011, 15:21
Paul I appreciate your input and perspective.

sailor22
02-25-2011, 16:54
I haven't encountered any white spirit that I would consider a sipper. Mixers all, and since I rarely make cocktails...
Fun to sample occasionally in order to compare against a similar but aged product. Never considered purchasing.

B.B. Babington
02-25-2011, 22:17
like anything else, it depends on the white dog. I've had some exceptionally smooth white dog brandy from down the holler that was totally amazing. I've tried maybe only two dozen taxed commercials. The only commercial white dog that had me stand up and take notice was a virginia product, catoctin creek, which was a super mellow rye.

White Dog
02-25-2011, 22:54
How many people sip white tequila or white rum straight? The best use of un-aged spirits is in cocktails. That's becoming crystal clear the more I sample them.

I agree as to Tequila and Rum, but there are many un-aged Eau-de-Vies and Grappas that I love sipping, from both sides of the Atlantic. I would never imagine mixing a Poire Williams Eau-de-Vie from Switzerland's Etter, for instance.

B.B. Babington
02-25-2011, 23:08
when stepping out o' realm of whiskey, there's lots of unaged spirits that are unique and flavorful. and for tequila, a lot of aficianodos prefer robust blanco over mellow reposido or anejo. But for grappa, I love metaxa and similar expressions, but I'll let ya keep the grappa.

cowdery
02-26-2011, 01:06
Nobody is answering my primary question.

How much white dog do you drink relative to your consumption of aged spirits? Would you say you enjoy white dog exclusively, frequently, occasionally, rarely, or never?

Or, to put it comparatively, do you drink white spirits less than 10% of the time? Less than 40% of the time? Less than 70% of the time? More than 70% of the time? Or more than 90% of the time?

Yes, there are some white spirits that you sip. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that white whiskey is not one of them. It's better in cocktails.

White Dog
02-26-2011, 06:11
I love White Dog, my wife loves White Dog, my kids love...

Oh wait, you mean white whiskey.:lol:

I have BT, Georgia Moon, Tuthilltown, and some Kovals. I like the Kovals, and don't care for the others. I like having the Kovals on hand for the intellectual exercise of examining "pure" forms of Rye and Wheat, so no, I don't love them.

I do agree with Kickert, in that I'll use Koval Whiskeys in place of Vodka, which I don't own. In the summertime, if my wife wants a vodka-lemonade, she'll get a Koval-lemonade.

Yikes. I guess my answer wasn't sufficient because I didn't use percentages. I will choose "occasionaly."

B.B. Babington
02-26-2011, 06:16
Very little - almost 0% white dog whiskey compared to aged.

wadewood
02-26-2011, 06:40
To answer Chuck's question, true white dog 0%. I do have some lightly aged micro stuff that I like, but still very small % of my consumption.

I know one local liquor store is sitting with a shelf full of BT white dog that is not moving. They offered a bar owner to purchase him a small oak barrel, if he would buy their stock - then he can barrel age this and sell at his bar. A good gimmick way to move some inventory.

squire
02-26-2011, 11:50
Since I have tried some in the past I will say rarely.

dmarkle
02-26-2011, 11:58
Nobody is answering my primary question.


The answer is no. Not only because it's yucky, but because the prices are completely ridiculous for what you get around where I live. When white dog costs more than Beam white, what's the point? I'd mix 'em both with Coke or whatever in order to make either one palatable. Maybe there's some fancypants avant-garde bartender out there who makes some sort of fancy drink with it, using white dog's unique characteristics, but I've never had such a drink.

It's neat to have as a curiosity. It's neat to smell and sip and say, "Wow! I'm sure glad this gets better as it ages", but no. No, I pretty much never drink the stuff.

T Comp
02-26-2011, 14:19
Nobody is answering my primary question.

How much white dog do you drink relative to your consumption of aged spirits? Would you say you enjoy white dog exclusively, frequently, occasionally, rarely, or never?

Or, to put it comparatively, do you drink white spirits less than 10% of the time? Less than 40% of the time? Less than 70% of the time? More than 70% of the time? Or more than 90% of the time?



For whiskey white dog the answer is rarely. For white spirits as a whole it would be less than 5% in my entire drinking lifetime of 40 years and close to 0% in the last few years. My old world father in law's death even took the occasional schnapps or aquavit off the table.

camduncan
02-26-2011, 14:34
To answer your question chuck, true white dog 0%. Corn Whiskey.... less than 1%

harshest
02-26-2011, 17:46
Nobody is answering my primary question.

How much white dog do you drink relative to your consumption of aged spirits? Would you say you enjoy white dog exclusively, frequently, occasionally, rarely, or never?

Rarely to never. I am pretty sure I will never buy another bottle of white dog.

cowdery
02-26-2011, 21:41
To clarify, and only for purposes of this exercise, I'm calling all white spirits 'white dog,' even including some that have perhaps a few months in wood, as long as they still have that white dog flavor.

As this micro-distilling thing has developed and more of the un- or barely-aged products have come on the market I have developed a new appreciation for the visionaries who chose two years, and the 'straight' designation, as a defining threshhold. While the barrel, especially a new charred one, begins to have some flavoring effect almost immediately, it is only after about two years that the spirit is really transformed into something else.

Josh
02-27-2011, 05:23
Late to thread I know, but I do drink a good amount of unaged corn whiskey during the summertime, and enjoy it. Maybe 10%. The BT white dog is kept around for educational purposes.

B.B. Babington
02-27-2011, 06:35
...As this micro-distilling thing has developed and more of the un- or barely-aged products have come on the market I have developed a new appreciation for the visionaries..."Visionaries" is an interesting term. I agree these are visionaries with a realist's eye for building a viable company. In today's world, most startup companies don't enjoy a patron financier interested in a fun hobby, so they must recoup investment fast. What I like is that this creates atmosphere for new and varied flavors - and some of these young products are actually good.

squire
02-27-2011, 11:00
My disinterest covers the unaged or lightly aged whiskys and I plan to still be around when the aged expressions are market ready.

cowdery
02-27-2011, 11:48
"Visionaries" is an interesting term. I agree these are visionaries with a realist's eye for building a viable company. In today's world, most startup companies don't enjoy a patron financier interested in a fun hobby, so they must recoup investment fast. What I like is that this creates atmosphere for new and varied flavors - and some of these young products are actually good.

If you think they're so good, answer the question.

How much white dog do you drink relative to your consumption of aged spirits? Would you say you enjoy white dog exclusively, frequently, occasionally, rarely, or never?

Khomeinist
02-27-2011, 13:05
The survey technique is amusing.

Very little interest in 'white dog.'
Zero interest in purchasing such whiskey.
Would love to taste Talisker or S-W white dog.

I love tequila blanco.
I do not have much interest in the 'mixology' scene.
Proper integration of oak is key to almost all the spirits and wines I drink.

Enjoy the data. A few extra nuggets to round out the marketing profile.

pepcycle
02-27-2011, 13:25
In reply to a Crotchety Old Guy looking for data for future Free Lance White Dog Article.

At least 90%, of the 5% of the unaged or short aged distillate I consume, is commercially available.

99% of the time, I don't choose that 5%, but when I do, I consume 40% more than thought I would, which is half as much as I admit to, if asked.

Hope that helps.

callmeox
02-27-2011, 13:32
0.00%

The one bottle of corn whiskey that I purchased in the last year was given away to an SB'er who likes the stuff much (much) more than I.

It's not my bag, baby.

cowdery
02-27-2011, 16:13
So far the results would seem to that people who hate it never drink it and people who like it rarely drink it.

Maybe this will convince some folks that if they want to make and sell whiskey they better figure out a way to finance a real maturation program because the novelty factor that is selling the stuff now is going to wear off fast.

ILLfarmboy
02-27-2011, 16:21
How many people sip white tequila or white rum straight? The best use of un-aged spirits is in cocktails. That's becoming crystal clear the more I sample them.

I don't know, but I know I like blanco tequila. El Tosoro is my favorite. I like it neat and usually drink it from a Riedel bourbon glass, sometimes along with Mexican food. I wouldn't class un-aged tequila alongside un-aged rum or white dog.

White dog, for me anyhow, is mostly an educational experience. I have a bottle of BT white dog and very occasionally have a very small pour.

Josh
02-27-2011, 16:37
I have on good authority that the guy Scott gave that bottle of Glen Thunder Corn Whiskey to really enjoyed it. Uhoh, have I said too much?

Not that it will skew the stats too much, but to put it in perspective...Yes 1/10 of total pours in the summer is not a lot, but that's about as much Scotch as I drink during the same period and the same proportion of my total whiskey consumption that is Four Roses.:grin:

kickert
02-27-2011, 19:44
So far the results would seem to that people who hate it never drink it and people who like it rarely drink it.

Maybe this will convince some folks that if they want to make and sell whiskey they better figure out a way to finance a real maturation program because the novelty factor that is selling the stuff now is going to wear off fast.

I think your methodology is a bit skewed Chuck. You are asking a bunch of bourbon elitists if they like a non-bourbon product. You could just have easily asked "How much of your total spirits drinking is dedicated to spiced rum" and just because the number is probably pretty low, does not mean that there is no market for it.

I would fully expect the people on SB.com to prefer aged whiskey.

White Dog
02-28-2011, 08:29
So far the results would seem to that people who hate it never drink it and people who like it rarely drink it.

Maybe this will convince some folks that if they want to make and sell whiskey they better figure out a way to finance a real maturation program because the novelty factor that is selling the stuff now is going to wear off fast.

We get it, Chuck. You don't like white dog.

Note to all struggling micros, "Get the f--k off Chuck's lawn!":lol: :lol:

cowdery
02-28-2011, 10:56
I think your methodology is a bit skewed Chuck. You are asking a bunch of bourbon elitists if they like a non-bourbon product. You could just have easily asked "How much of your total spirits drinking is dedicated to spiced rum" and just because the number is probably pretty low, does not mean that there is no market for it.

I would fully expect the people on SB.com to prefer aged whiskey.

And who would you expect to be the big drinkers of white dog?

There is no actual survey here, by the way. My intention was to stimulate a discussion about this subject on SB.com, where we get a lot of favorable comments about white dog whiskeys, comments that often strike me as perfunctory and superficial, so I'm asking if anybody here (and no one would deny that people here drink) consumes the stuff on a regular basis, except for professional purposes, of course.

I also consider myself the friend of the micro-distiller, even if what I practice is tough love, because I'm saying "look, the stuff may be interesting, and people may be enamored of having a distillery next door, and willing to be supportive, but you can't build a business based on selling bottles nobody will finish."

So no, White Dog, it's not that I have anything against white dog per se, but I'm waiting in vain here for someone to come forward and say, "I love white dog, it's all I ever drink."

squire
02-28-2011, 11:02
Patience Chuck, perhaps someone will come forth, if they are a member of this Board.

B.B. Babington
02-28-2011, 17:47
...I'm saying "look, the stuff may be interesting, and people may be enamored of having a distillery next door, and willing to be supportive, but you can't build a business based on selling bottles nobody will finish."
I agree with Chuck on this one. I buy a lot of bottles of under-aged micro-distillery material even though it carries a high price. But, I only buy the first bottle and almost never buy a second unless it's really great (and that's rare). So, I'm guessing few people ever buy the first under-aged bottle. And of those purchasers, few ever buy more of the same label.

dmarkle
02-28-2011, 18:56
I agree with Chuck on this one. I buy a lot of bottles of under-aged micro-distillery material even though it carries a high price. But, I only buy the first bottle and almost never buy a second unless it's really great (and that's rare). So, I'm guessing few people ever buy the first under-aged bottle. And of those purchasers, few ever buy more of the same label.

Right. Wasn't the whole point of white dog the fact that it's cheap to produce, and cheap to sell? Moonshiners aren't interested in aging whiskey for 10 years. They're interested in selling their hooch to people who want their whiskey so cheap that the tax on it is a such a significant part of the price that they're willing to go to jail to save that money. That means it's got to be *damned* cheap in order to justify the purchase. And that's just not what the microdistillers are into. They want to put out a "premium" unaged product, which to me is an oxymoron when whiskey is concerned. If they want to do make money, I say they should make vodka or gin or whatever, and leave their whiskey to age instead. They shouldn't trash their brand by making overly expensive rot gut!

I agree with Chuck. This is just a flash in the pan fad. There's a local distiller near me who sells barely-aged rye. I appreciate that they're doing it. But not enough to ever buy another bottle.

kickert
02-28-2011, 19:15
And who would you expect to be the big drinkers of white dog?

...

I also consider myself the friend of the micro-distiller, even if what I practice is tough love, because I'm saying "look, the stuff may be interesting, and people may be enamored of having a distillery next door, and willing to be supportive, but you can't build a business based on selling bottles nobody will finish."

So no, White Dog, it's not that I have anything against white dog per se, but I'm waiting in vain here for someone to come forward and say, "I love white dog, it's all I ever drink."

That's a straw man Chuck. I don't know anyone who says "Absinthe is the only thing I ever drink" but that doesn't mean there is no market for it.

The people I see buying white dog the most are high-end mixologists who use it in place of other white spirits when they want more "body" for a drink. Definitely not for everyone at everytime, but it has its place. Personally, I will only drink a bloody mary if it is made with white dog and I really really like it that way.

cowdery
03-02-2011, 09:45
It is very correct that un- and barely-aged whiskeys have found their best and highest use in the hands of creative mixologists, who like it as an ingredient and make good use of it.

Actually, I think there are people who only or primarily drink absinthe.

But I stand by my opinion, prediction, admonition that if a distillery wants to be in the whiskey business they better figure out a maturation program, because whiskey needs wood and just isn't the same without it. Crotchety or not, I stand by that contention.

kickert
03-02-2011, 10:34
But I stand by my opinion, prediction, admonition that if a distillery wants to be in the whiskey business they better figure out a maturation program, because whiskey needs wood and just isn't the same without it. Crotchety or not, I stand by that contention.

I won't disagree with that contention. I see unaged whiskey products filling the same role as Vodka, Gin, Liquoers, etc. They allow distilleries to put out products (and make a bit of money) while working on proper whiskey. Of course if they sell all their new make and can't put out the real stuff, then that is obviously a problem.

sku
03-02-2011, 10:48
That's a straw man Chuck. I don't know anyone who says "Absinthe is the only thing I ever drink" but that doesn't mean there is no market for it.

If you have ever been on an Absinthe forum, you will see lots of people who drink only or mostly Absinthe. And by the way, if you think we get into arguments about Bourbon now and then, you should check out the Absinthe flame wars. Those guys are crazy!

squire
03-02-2011, 10:57
Absinthe has that effect, I'm told.

cowdery
03-02-2011, 12:08
My thought exactly. I think it's the drug "Charlie Sheen" under another name. New word for getting high: "sheening."

kickert
03-02-2011, 12:30
If you have ever been on an Absinthe forum, you will see lots of people who drink only or mostly Absinthe. And by the way, if you think we get into arguments about Bourbon now and then, you should check out the Absinthe flame wars. Those guys are crazy!

I will give you that for sure... Absinthe drinkers are rabid.

pepcycle
03-04-2011, 14:40
Chuck's Assertion that whiskeys (grain based liquors) do need some wood aging is sound.
Sugar cane, agave, potato, grape yadda yadda based liquors stand on their own or are consumed for effect. If flavor, complexity, smoothness, aroma are positive attributes of whiskey, a lot of that comes from the wood. So I think Chuck's point is that someone in the micro distilling world should listen. Either call all your short aged or unaged products Mixers or start maturing your product in wood.

B.B. Babington
03-04-2011, 18:58
I like wood. Some people talk about over-aged, but I've never experienced that. I'm gullible and fall for many of the "finished in something new wood" type products. I'm one of the few that fanatically enjoy the Woodford maple.

With that said, white dog whiskey has a lot to offer. It's not because I sipped white dog from a mountain jug 45 years ago that sways my opinion, it's because I've found some unusual white dog and underaged whiskeys that are worth attention. One unusual product (rarely available outside of Virginia) is Catoctin Creek Rye white dog which is smoother than Blantons or Patron Blanco and definitely in the same league.

to further drive home the point - in the nutty guy topic (see:
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14813&highlight=nutty+guy )
I mentioned that it inspired me to do a wood flavor taste test which included the list below. One thing that came of it was the Catoctin Creek super impressed folks, one of which managed a liquor store and toured distilleries for vacation. Afterwards, one participant ONLY bought a Catoctin Creek from the list. Here's the list from that night per my post "BT white dog, catoctin creek mosby, pappy 20, WT tradition 14yo, saz 18, stagg, wlw, crown XR, bowman single barrel, woodford seasoned oak, woodford maple, yamazaki 12yo, yamazaki 18yo, glenmorangie 18yo, EC 18 yo, glenlivet nadurra, glenlivet french oak, and maybe a couple others I don't remember."

and no, I do not work for Catoctin nor ever met those folks.

Lost Pollito
03-04-2011, 19:42
I drink a fair amount of white dog, and new make from Scotland, yet I owe none currently. I see that changing for me this year.

tommyboy38
03-04-2011, 21:34
I like white dogs.....sit doggy!
What a good puppy he is.

squire
03-04-2011, 21:39
Sit, stay, we won't let the new puppy in just yet.

Luna56
03-05-2011, 23:35
My thought exactly. I think it's the drug "Charlie Sheen" under another name. New word for getting high: "sheening."

Duuuude, I was like, totally sheened!

I liked the white dog I sampled on the Four Roses tour. I'd buy it were it available.

Cheers!

pepcycle
03-06-2011, 09:02
I'm thinking Jack Nicholson as Charlie Sheen wintering in a Colorado resort that's haunted with the ghosts of ex-porn stars.

The Sheening

cowdery
03-06-2011, 20:15
Seen at the supermarket this evening, Sheen quote on the cover of People. "If I'm insane, I'm okay with it."

As once was said about a friend of mine, "he's in his own world but it's okay, because they know him there."

By the way, to get sort of back on topic, Max Watman's Chasing the White Dog is out in paperback. I highly recommend it.

jmpyle
03-11-2011, 18:21
Chuck this is a great topic. As much as I love Whiskey, that's how on the fence I am about white dog. Much of the white dogs on the market are just not very good. In fact the best white dog i've ever had is right off the still at Four Roses. They are missing the boat by not bottling theirs. It's fantastic stuff. The OBSK and OBSQ in particular are stellar. Koval makes a couple good ones too.

Otherwise, white dog and white whiskey isn't something I get all that excited about.

CADMixes
05-18-2011, 20:54
There's a lot to unpack within Chuck's line of questioning. I consider myself a bourbon enthusiast, but also a serious hobbyist when it comes to mixology, so I feel like I can appreciate the different perspectives at work.

First, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a bunch of bourbon people to feel enthusiastic about white dog, and it shouldn't be taken as instructive when a bunch of bourbon people aren't into white dog. Despite their, um, shared heritage, the aesthetic experience of drinking white dog on its own has almost nothing in common with the experience of drinking bourbon. White dog is aggressively sweet and floral. Even cheap bourbon is richer and has a more varied flavor profile.

Second, like white rum and blanco tequila, white dog is an intriguing and valuable cocktail base (though in fairness it has less of a heritage than either of those). Neyeh White's white dog manhattan, when made carefully, is really good. And like a lot of spirits white dog works well in an old-fashioned template. It's certainly not imperative to every bar, but I'll probably replace my bottle when it's empty.

Third, as bourbon enthusiasts, we have to admit that white dog has a cache that white rum or blanco tequila lack. It's compelling to think that BT white dog turns into BT bourbon, or that Trybox Rye becomes Rittenhouse. We're attracted to these products because we understand their potential. It can be hard to match that to the experience of actually drinking them.

For the moment, I'm splitting the difference. I took a portion of my bottle of Death's Door white whisky and consigned it to the freezer (which I never, ever do with other spirits). Following some advice I got elsewhere online, I've been sipping it out of the freezer with a chaser of American pale ale. And you know what? It's really good that way. The pale ale's hops are a perfect complement. And importantly (from my perspective), it's an approach that uses white dog on its own terms rather than fitting it into a preexisting notion of how to drink--be that as a base of a stirred cocktail or as a bourbon-type contemplative sipping experience.

sku
05-18-2011, 21:23
There's a lot to unpack within Chuck's line of questioning. I consider myself a bourbon enthusiast, but also a serious hobbyist when it comes to mixology, so I feel like I can appreciate the different perspectives at work.

First, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a bunch of bourbon people to feel enthusiastic about white dog, and it shouldn't be taken as instructive when a bunch of bourbon people aren't into white dog. Despite their, um, shared heritage, the aesthetic experience of drinking white dog on its own has almost nothing in common with the experience of drinking bourbon. White dog is aggressively sweet and floral. Even cheap bourbon is richer and has a more varied flavor profile.

Second, like white rum and blanco tequila, white dog is an intriguing and valuable cocktail base (though in fairness it has less of a heritage than either of those). Neyeh White's white dog manhattan, when made carefully, is really good. And like a lot of spirits white dog works well in an old-fashioned template. It's certainly not imperative to every bar, but I'll probably replace my bottle when it's empty.

Third, as bourbon enthusiasts, we have to admit that white dog has a cache that white rum or blanco tequila lack. It's compelling to think that BT white dog turns into BT bourbon, or that Trybox Rye becomes Rittenhouse. We're attracted to these products because we understand their potential. It can be hard to match that to the experience of actually drinking them.

For the moment, I'm splitting the difference. I took a portion of my bottle of Death's Door white whisky and consigned it to the freezer (which I never, ever do with other spirits). Following some advice I got elsewhere online, I've been sipping it out of the freezer with a chaser of American pale ale. And you know what? It's really good that way. The pale ale's hops are a perfect complement. And importantly (from my perspective), it's an approach that uses white dog on its own terms rather than fitting it into a preexisting notion of how to drink--be that as a base of a stirred cocktail or as a bourbon-type contemplative sipping experience.

Great post and a brave and spirited defense of white dog. I think you're right that mixology is probably the right place for white dog to be appreciated, and I too like the white manhattan. The problem comes with those distilleries that market it as "whiskey", give tasting notes suggesting it should be taken neat, etc. I haven't yet had a white dog that I go to regularly for sipping. It is, in some ways, a different spirit than aged whiskey, and I wonder if the US shouldn't have a law like Scotland that requires a certain amount of ageing before you can call your spirit whiskey, and let white dog be "spirit" or "moonshine" or just white dog.

Bourbon Boiler
05-19-2011, 19:42
I have half a bottle of GA moon. I bought a few to do my own aging, and ended up with almost a full bottle left. I keep it to let friends sample for comparison purposes, and also to test when I've had enough in an evening.

I do like the idea of using it to replace vodka in mixed drinks. My best friend's wife's drink of choice is a vodka-cranberry. I think I'll serve her a white dog - cranberry and see how well it goes over.

Josh
05-19-2011, 21:02
I have half a bottle of GA moon. I bought a few to do my own aging, and ended up with almost a full bottle left. I keep it to let friends sample for comparison purposes, and also to test when I've had enough in an evening.

I do like the idea of using it to replace vodka in mixed drinks. My best friend's wife's drink of choice is a vodka-cranberry. I think I'll serve her a white dog - cranberry and see how well it goes over.

I have a bottle of Georgia Moon I use as weed killer. I feel bad using it on the weeds, though. Even they deserve better than that.

I might have posted this upthread, but I think a distinction needs to be made between White Dog and Corn Whiskey. White Dog is a spirit that is orginally destined for a barrel. The BT White dog would go on to become BT or ERSB or Old Charter or Stagg if it had not been bottled. It is a raw spirit that was not created to be consumed without some time in the barrel.

Corn whiskey is its own little niche in the regulations. It has to be 80% or more corn and is either unaged or aged in used cooperage. Corn whiskey is pungent, but it is created to be consumed as-is, unlike true white dog.

Anyway, as far as unaged (i.e. white) Corn Whiskey goes, my favorites are Virginia Lightning (no longer made) and Glen Thunder (Finger Lakes). For the aged versions, I like Mellow Corn BiB the best. Platte Valley is OK, but a little weak at 80 proof. Same with Tuthilltown's Old Grist Mill or whatever its called. All of the Balcones corn whiskeys I've had are good too, I just don't remember which ones I liked the best. I also like the Koval spirits I;ve had. The rye, oats and millet were all pretty tasty.

T Comp
05-20-2011, 09:17
I have a bottle of Georgia Moon I use as weed killer. I feel bad using it on the weeds, though. Even they deserve better than that.

I might have posted this upthread, but I think a distinction needs to be made between White Dog and Corn Whiskey. White Dog is a spirit that is orginally destined for a barrel. The BT White dog would go on to become BT or ERSB or Old Charter or Stagg if it had not been bottled. It is a raw spirit that was not created to be consumed without some time in the barrel.

Corn whiskey is its own little niche in the regulations. It has to be 80% or more corn and is either unaged or aged in used cooperage. Corn whiskey is pungent, but it is created to be consumed as-is, unlike true white dog.

Anyway, as far as unaged (i.e. white) Corn Whiskey goes, my favorites are Virginia Lightning (no longer made) and Glen Thunder (Finger Lakes). For the aged versions, I like Mellow Corn BiB the best. Platte Valley is OK, but a little weak at 80 proof. Same with Tuthilltown's Old Grist Mill or whatever its called. All of the Balcones corn whiskeys I've had are good too, I just don't remember which ones I liked the best. I also like the Koval spirits I;ve had. The rye, oats and millet were all pretty tasty.

I'm not saying I'd make a steady diet of it but Stu's bottle of Uncle Ed's Arkansas Moonshine Old Fashioned Corn Whiskey had its place as a tasty accompaniment to Gary's Steeler and Molson Canadian beer, while sitting out in the early afternoon sun near the empty pool at the Nelson.

mosugoji64
05-20-2011, 15:23
I tried BT white dog at the distillery and found it surprisingly drinkable. Don't know that I will purchase any for regular consumption, however. I tend to agree with those who said it's more of a novelty considering bourbon is much more complex and enjoyable.
I also have a jar of Ole Smoky unaged corn whiskey that I sip once in a while. I emphasize "sip" because it's pretty strong, but has a great corn flavor that I enjoy.

fishnbowljoe
05-20-2011, 16:59
I haven't met him yet, but he seems like a pretty decent guy to me. :slappin:
Cheers Dog! Joe

Stu
05-21-2011, 16:36
I'm not saying I'd make a steady diet of it but Stu's bottle of Uncle Ed's Arkansas Moonshine Old Fashioned Corn Whiskey had its place as a tasty accompaniment to Gary's Steeler and Molson Canadian beer, while sitting out in the early afternoon sun near the empty pool at the Nelson.

Thanks Thad,

It went so well I've already picked up another bottle to take to KBF. I don't know if he'll ever have enough production to distribute nationwide. I think I told you, he makes his beer ot of feed corn, granulated sugar, and Fleishmans yeast. That's the same way my Uncle Ben used to make it "on the banks of the Wabash" when I was a kid in Indiana. What sets it apart from white dog or Georgia Moon is the smell of corn and the taste of corn on your pallet. I've had one distiller tell me that it's white rum that has been corn infused. Whatever, it is totally different than white dog and IMO far superior to Georgia Moon. I'm trying to find a one gallon barrel and have a medium char put in it and see what it is like aged in wood.

White Dog
05-21-2011, 16:40
I haven't met him yet, but he seems like a pretty decent guy to me. :slappin:
Cheers Dog! Joe

Thanks for the kind words, Joe. Everyone else seems to feel that I'm either overpriced, or should just be used as a vodka substitute. It's enough to make a guy feel insecure!:lol: :lol:

p_elliott
05-22-2011, 06:41
Thanks Thad,

It went so well I've already picked up another bottle to take to KBF. I don't know if he'll ever have enough production to distribute nationwide. I think I told you, he makes his beer ot of feed corn, granulated sugar, and Fleishmans yeast. That's the same way my Uncle Ben used to make it "on the banks of the Wabash" when I was a kid in Indiana. What sets it apart from white dog or Georgia Moon is the smell of corn and the taste of corn on your pallet. I've had one distiller tell me that it's white rum that has been corn infused. Whatever, it is totally different than white dog and IMO far superior to Georgia Moon. I'm trying to find a one gallon barrel and have a medium char put in it and see what it is like aged in wood.

Stu here's a place to get barrels my wife got mine there. I worked well for my aging project.

http://www.oakbarrelsltd.com/

ebo
05-22-2011, 13:45
I'm not sure this belongs in this thread, but I do like home made corn whiskey. I have a friend who gets a regular batch from his relatives in Tennessee. sells me a pint or two every other month or so. The stuff is wonderfull. It's sweet and very drinkable neat, even at 190 proof.

I have never had any of the "legal' offerings from BT and the like... and I don't think I would spend the money on any of them, to be honest.

kickert
05-22-2011, 14:23
I'm not sure this belongs in this thread, but I do like home made corn whiskey. I have a friend who gets a regular batch from his relatives in Tennessee. sells me a pint or two every other month or so. The stuff is wonderfull. It's sweet and very drinkable neat, even at 190 proof.

I have never had any of the "legal' offerings from BT and the like... and I don't think I would spend the money on any of them, to be honest.

There is no way "home made corn whiskey" is hitting 190 proof. I would be VERY impressed to see a moonshiner hit 150 on a regular basis. Sure its possible on home made equipment, but it isn't worth the time and effort. Even the best stuff I have had (and I have had a lot) is no higher than 120 or so and most is a lot lower than that.

ebo
05-22-2011, 15:47
There is no way "home made corn whiskey" is hitting 190 proof. I would be VERY impressed to see a moonshiner hit 150 on a regular basis. Sure its possible on home made equipment, but it isn't worth the time and effort. Even the best stuff I have had (and I have had a lot) is no higher than 120 or so and most is a lot lower than that.

I won't disagree with you on that. I'm just relaying what I am told about it. It does make more sense as to why it's so drinkable if it really isn't that high in proof.

kickert
05-22-2011, 18:22
I won't disagree with you on that. I'm just relaying what I am told about it. It does make more sense as to why it's so drinkable if it really isn't that high in proof.

I have had 190 GNS on several occasions and it is anything but smooth. It literally burns your throat even if you take the smallest sip.

ILLfarmboy
05-26-2011, 14:01
I have had 190 GNS on several occasions and it is anything but smooth. It literally burns your throat even if you take the smallest sip.

Burns your throat. Hell, it burns the hell out of your toung. And if your lips are even slightly chaped, forget it.

I use to keep some everclear in the bathroom for sterilizing our thermometer etc.

Roadsaw
05-30-2011, 19:00
I have some Georgia Moon. The only thing i use it for is when the Green Bay Packers score points(TD, field goal,and extra points in the SB). Shot of it i think is a good celebration.:grin:

unclebunk
06-01-2011, 07:58
I may check out the Mellow Corn as Josh suggested. I've always been intrigued by it and the price is right, if only for the novelty factor when sitting by the campfire this summer.

cowdery
06-01-2011, 10:03
I can endorse Mellow Corn. Get the BIB if you can. It tastes a little like tequila. Much more drinkable than Georgia Moon.

Ben's right. A real moonshiner is lucky to hit 40% - 50% abv let alone 95%, and if you've been sipping 95% abv spirit, you're probably dead by now.

Also, true moonshine is rarely corn. It's usually sugarjack, i.e., made from table sugar. Hell, if it tastes good that right there is the best evidence that it isn't true moonshine, because true moonshine usually tastes like crap and a half.

Anybody with even a passing interest in moonshine should read Max Watman's book, Chasing the White Dog.

unclebunk
06-01-2011, 15:32
I can endorse Mellow Corn. Get the BIB if you can. It tastes a little like tequila. Much more drinkable than Georgia Moon.

Ben's right. A real moonshiner is lucky to hit 40% - 50% abv let alone 95%, and if you've been sipping 95% abv spirit, you're probably dead by now.

Also, true moonshine is rarely corn. It's usually sugarjack, i.e., made from table sugar. Hell, if it tastes good that right there is the best evidence that it isn't true moonshine, because true moonshine usually tastes like crap and a half.

Anybody with even a passing interest in moonshine should read Max Watman's book, Chasing the White Dog.

Got the Mellow Corn today and had a small pour after lunch. It's really not a bad drink at all and will certainly interest my friends when they drop by. Glad I was able to get the BIB.

fussychicken
06-01-2011, 23:37
Anybody with even a passing interest in moonshine should read Max Watman's book, Chasing the White Dog.

Seconded!

If you enjoy the romantic notion of moonshine as this old farmer's way of using his surplus corn to put it to the man and then drive through the night in his hopped up car, this book probably isn't for you. While not a huge surprise, the book makes it very clear that "moonshine" (if you can even still call it that) is a very different thing today, and has been for sometime. Sad in a way. (Get some Mellow Corn if you want to know what it was like 50+ years ago.)

Nevertheless, the book does a good job of skipping around and touching on other interesting distilling topics. It has made me appreciate all of the budding micro-distillers even more. That is assuming those micro's have done a good job of making their lightly aged (or not aged at all) spirits taste like something new.

Bourbon Boiler
06-23-2011, 19:44
Our friends in Cedar Rapids are now selling White Dog as well.

The Cedar Ridge winery and distillery are new selling "unaged whiskey". I don't see it on the website as of yet.

www.crwine.com (http://www.crwine.com)

Josh
06-24-2011, 05:01
I visited Grand Traverse Distillery last weekend and they are planning on selling White Dog, their 100% corn mashbill diluted to 80 proof. They have a bunch of cases of it piled up in their warehouse area, they are just waiting on approval for the label. They already sell the same thing @125 proof for the purposes of filling the small barrels they sell. It's not bad, but lacks some complexity.

tmckenzie
06-24-2011, 14:32
never will have any complexity at 100 percent corn. Why is it that people want to make whiskey that way. I alsways thought is was big shortcut, until I found out how long it takes to mash it. 4 to 5 hours. Use malt, you get flavor and 30 minutes mashing is plenty.

Josh
06-24-2011, 15:04
never will have any complexity at 100 percent corn. Why is it that people want to make whiskey that way. I alsways thought is was big shortcut, until I found out how long it takes to mash it. 4 to 5 hours. Use malt, you get flavor and 30 minutes mashing is plenty.

Funny you should mention it, the guy giving the tour (not one of the owners it should be said) explained why they only make single grain whiskeys and vodkas. He said that the only reason one would use multiple grains is to cover-up "poor distillation". He also said corn was just a filler and implied that using it was some sort of cheap shortcut. I assume he meant with regard to rye whiskey.

He also seemed to think makers who use multiple grains in their whiskeys actually blend single grain spirits together. The poor kid was confused about a lot of things.

Bourbon Boiler
06-24-2011, 18:16
I visited Grand Traverse Distillery last weekend and they are planning on selling White Dog, their 100% corn mashbill diluted to 80 proof. They have a bunch of cases of it piled up in their warehouse area, they are just waiting on approval for the label. They already sell the same thing @125 proof for the purposes of filling the small barrels they sell. It's not bad, but lacks some complexity.

Not to re-direct the thread, but did this tour take any advance planning? I'll be in the area in a week and would like to talk my wife into letting me stop by for a walk-around.

tmckenzie
06-24-2011, 18:33
Funny you should mention it, the guy giving the tour (not one of the owners it should be said) explained why they only make single grain whiskeys and vodkas. He said that the only reason one would use multiple grains is to cover-up "poor distillation". He also said corn was just a filler and implied that using it was some sort of cheap shortcut. I assume he meant with regard to rye whiskey.

He also seemed to think makers who use multiple grains in their whiskeys actually blend single grain spirits together. The poor kid was confused about a lot of things.

He was probably saying what he had been told. This is exactly what I have heard from "guru" Bill Owens mouth. Whiskey has been made in Kentucky for years before any micro came along. If you want a model to follow, follow them. Not Bill.

Josh
06-24-2011, 20:24
Not to re-direct the thread, but did this tour take any advance planning? I'll be in the area in a week and would like to talk my wife into letting me stop by for a walk-around.

Nope, no advance notice needed. While you're there stop in at Black Star Farms Old Mission tasting room and try some of their spirits. Great stuff, esp the grappa and apple brandy. The 10 y/o apple brandy is KILLER. Worth the $75 pricetag. If you're nice they may even let you look at the still.


He was probably saying what he had been told. This is exactly what I have heard from "guru" Bill Owens mouth. Whiskey has been made in Kentucky for years before any micro came along. If you want a model to follow, follow them. Not Bill.

From your mouth to a dozen micro-distillers' ears!

Bourbon Boiler
06-24-2011, 20:26
Nope, no advance notice needed. While you're there stop in at Black Star Farms Old Mission tasting room and try some of their spirits. Great stuff, esp the grappa and apple brandy. The 10 y/o apple brandy is KILLER. Worth the $75 pricetag. If you're nice they may even let you look at the still.




Thanks, Josh. I'll check it out (if the boss consents).

cowdery
06-24-2011, 21:25
Josh,

How did you keep from ripping the tour guide a new one? Or did you?

Josh
06-25-2011, 06:56
Josh,

How did you keep from ripping the tour guide a new one? Or did you?

I didn't, but it was very difficult. I instead resorted to a lot of eye-rolling and a little snickering. I was with a lady (well, Amy anyway) and I didn't want to get all grouchy before I went to Black Star Farms.

Bourbon Boiler
07-05-2011, 20:10
Funny you should mention it, the guy giving the tour (not one of the owners it should be said) explained why they only make single grain whiskeys and vodkas. He said that the only reason one would use multiple grains is to cover-up "poor distillation". He also said corn was just a filler and implied that using it was some sort of cheap shortcut. I assume he meant with regard to rye whiskey.

He also seemed to think makers who use multiple grains in their whiskeys actually blend single grain spirits together. The poor kid was confused about a lot of things.

I took this tour today, and didn't hear anything like this. They basicly said they use single grains to give them maximum flexability of the production schedule. I also was a little surprised to learn that they only have one yeast for peat/malt/wheat/rye/corn.

Bourbon Boiler
07-06-2011, 20:51
Nope, no advance notice needed. While you're there stop in at Black Star Farms Old Mission tasting room and try some of their spirits. Great stuff, esp the grappa and apple brandy. The 10 y/o apple brandy is KILLER. Worth the $75 pricetag. If you're nice they may even let you look at the still.



You nailed this one. The apple brandy that is ten yo was EXCELLENT. I couldn't justify a purchase at the price level, but that doesn't mean I'd call it overpriced. We got there near closing time, so I didn't ask to see any of the production. We may go back later in the week, however.

Josh
07-07-2011, 05:50
You nailed this one. The apple brandy that is ten yo was EXCELLENT. I couldn't justify a purchase at the price level, but that doesn't mean I'd call it overpriced. We got there near closing time, so I didn't ask to see any of the production. We may go back later in the week, however.

Glad you liked it! After I posted that comment I worried that I may have oversold it.

I'm planning to post a report on my trip to Black Star Farms in the Other Alcohol section today or tomorrow.

emr454
07-17-2011, 07:05
As I was perusing the shelves at the liquor sore the other day, I came across HH's Trybox Rye and decided to try it, if nothing else for educational purposes. I don't know what I was expecting, but it is radically different than I thought it would be. It has some rye spice to it, and a lot of raw grain in the nose and taste, but there's something about it I just can't describe. Almost a heavy, oily taste that's downright unappetizing.

I'm starting to think it was a waste of $25. Now I have 700ml of white dog that I have no use for, unless I can find some good cocktail recipes to use it in. Anyone have any recipes to share?

Eric

Bourbon Boiler
07-17-2011, 17:23
As I was perusing the shelves at the liquor sore the other day, I came across HH's Trybox Rye and decided to try it, if nothing else for educational purposes. I don't know what I was expecting, but it is radically different than I thought it would be. It has some rye spice to it, and a lot of raw grain in the nose and taste, but there's something about it I just can't describe. Almost a heavy, oily taste that's downright unappetizing.

I'm starting to think it was a waste of $25. Now I have 700ml of white dog that I have no use for, unless I can find some good cocktail recipes to use it in. Anyone have any recipes to share?

Eric

If you're adventurous, you can look for a barrel instead of a recipie book ...

tmckenzie
07-18-2011, 02:33
As I was perusing the shelves at the liquor sore the other day, I came across HH's Trybox Rye and decided to try it, if nothing else for educational purposes. I don't know what I was expecting, but it is radically different than I thought it would be. It has some rye spice to it, and a lot of raw grain in the nose and taste, but there's something about it I just can't describe. Almost a heavy, oily taste that's downright unappetizing.

I'm starting to think it was a waste of $25. Now I have 700ml of white dog that I have no use for, unless I can find some good cocktail recipes to use it in. Anyone have any recipes to share?

Eric

That is the way rye tastes. I love the taste of corn and bourbon white dog, but rye is terrible in my opinion. It really needs a barrel.

emr454
07-18-2011, 05:09
That is the way rye tastes. I love the taste of corn and bourbon white dog, but rye is terrible in my opinion. It really needs a barrel.

Recently I read a post where a few people claimed that rye was drinkable right off the still. Maybe their claims led me to believe it would taste good. I've also been drinking more (aged) rye than bourbon lately and I'm really starting to like it, so I figured I might like rye white dog too.

The barrel idea has merit. I also have a few ounces of heavy toast american oak chips that I thought about using.

Eric

fitzharry
10-22-2011, 11:02
To answer the question: no, I don't generally like white dog. Would I buy white dog as a regular pour? Nope.

Back home in West By God Virginia two years ago for my dear mother's funeral, I hit a local liquor store the day before we all left to return to Texas and bought two local products: Mountain Moonshine (West Virginia Spirit Whiskey, 30% corn whiskey, 70% GNS, IIRC) and Southern Moon Corn Liquor from the Isaiah Morgan Distillery.

The Mountain Moonshine is an interesting pour. The corn content gives it a nicer taste than just plain GNS, and the fact that it is 100 proof makes it a good belt. Does it match my great grandfather's corn liquor? No, and that's what I grew up expecting "moonshine" to taste like. This is interesting and would make a good mixer for Bloody Marys or other vodka-based cocktails, though, but I also like Platte Valley for those kind of cocktails.

I guess I just really prefer barrel-aged spirit, preferably heavy on the corn content.

tmckenzie
10-22-2011, 17:38
I will not call any names, but a micro distillery was by our distillery the other day and tried to pass off a spirit made from honey as a white whiskey. I cannot believe how dumb some of these people are who are getting in the liquor business. I think he thought it was really whiskey.

fishnbowljoe
10-26-2011, 21:25
I visited BT again during the KBF. I went on the hardhat tour with lilsweetpea and her boyfriend Wayne. They were distilling the wheated mashbill that day. Y'all know me and my fondness for wheaters. :rolleyes: Even at 133 proof, it was pretty decent. If they start selling that, I may have to get a few bottles. Maybe even get an aging kit and do a little experimenting. :cool: Joe

keith18
10-28-2011, 08:13
I'm way late to this thread, but I have half a dozen bottles of white dog on my shelf, but I rarely reach for them. In fact, unless I encountered a bourbon emergency, I probably wouldn't drink them. I bought them because I love learning about whiskey and bourbon. I'm also aging my own stuff now, so I needed to find stuff I thought would age well. Overall, I'm glad they're out there because it has helped me learn about bourbon.

T Comp
11-12-2011, 07:34
Our friends in Cedar Rapids are now selling White Dog as well.

The Cedar Ridge winery and distillery are new selling "unaged whiskey". I don't see it on the website as of yet.

www.crwine.com (http://www.crwine.com)

Stopped in one of the 27 Binny's stores yesterday and saw that for $99 (tax not included) you can age a bottle of that Cedar Ridge Unaged Whiskey with the enclosed 1 liter barrel in the package kit now being sold. The packages were featured in the same area of the other holiday gift packages. I never paid much attention but think Wasmunds did this with 2 bottles and a 2 liter barrel at the same price a while back. I passed on the Cedar Ridge kit, thank you very much, and bought a Mellow Corn at $13.99 instead.



Funny you should mention it, the guy giving the tour (not one of the owners it should be said) explained why they only make single grain whiskeys and vodkas. He said that the only reason one would use multiple grains is to cover-up "poor distillation". He also said corn was just a filler and implied that using it was some sort of cheap shortcut. I assume he meant with regard to rye whiskey.

He also seemed to think makers who use multiple grains in their whiskeys actually blend single grain spirits together. The poor kid was confused about a lot of things.

To see what I imagine as the combination of bemused, smile and smirk on Josh's face would have been as they say priceless :grin: .

silverfish
11-12-2011, 08:57
... think Wasmunds did this with 2 bottles and a 2 liter barrel at the same price a while back.

They still do (at least the barrel kit & barrels only are listed on their website (http://copperfox.biz/products/).)

fivedime
11-27-2011, 00:24
I just picked up a bottle of Collier & McKeel's Tennessee Whiskey White Dog today. It filled a niche I had really been wanting to taste for a long time; it is distilled from the same mash bill as their regular TN whiskey (corn/rye/barley) and bottled without aging, but it has been given the typical "Lincoln County Process" charcoal filtering. Bottled at 100 proof. Very interesting taste, pretty standard white dog/moonshiney flavors going on, but with the oily/rocket fuel thing toned down and a very sweet finish (both, presumably, due to the sugar maple charcoal filtering).

And just for kicks the wife and I mixed some in with our egg nog tonight, and it was exquisite!

The down side is their website seems to show it available in Tennessee, and the back label calls it a limited release. It was about $20 for the bottle, not exactly cheap, but not ridiculous like so many white dogs are.

docbible
11-27-2011, 08:56
McScrooges in Knoxville,TN picked out Collier and McKeel barrel (about 20 gal) heavy char aged 6months. Good but very different. I prefer a lot more age but this will work well in tastings to demonstrate the first step in aging. Tim

fivedime
11-27-2011, 10:34
...The down side is their website seems to show it available in Tennessee...

Ack! No edit button...that should read *only* in Tennessee.


McScrooges in Knoxville,TN picked out Collier and McKeel barrel (about 20 gal) heavy char aged 6months. Good but very different. I prefer a lot more age but this will work well in tastings to demonstrate the first step in aging. Tim

It should be interesting to see how much their whiskey varies from batch to batch, hopefully they will be able to maintain a core of good characteristics with only subtle variation. I read something somewhere yesterday that said they had experimented with barrels "between 5 and 15 gallons," not sure if that means they've settled on 15 (and would that mean 15 gallons in a 20 gallon barrel?) for now, or are still playing around. Would also be interesting if they ever get to the point of aging in full-size barrels in barrel houses for several years, while also offering their current "artisinal" spirit, for comparison's sake.

cowdery
11-27-2011, 18:47
I have reason to believe that Collier & McKeel, as well as Prichards is bulk whiskey made by George Dickel.

B.B. Babington
11-27-2011, 19:03
I have reason to believe that Collier & McKeel, as well as Prichards is bulk whiskey made by George Dickel. Are you suggesting Collier & McKeel buys bulk unaged whiskey then redistills, filters, and ages????

cowdery
11-28-2011, 08:52
I'm suggesting, and will believe this until I have evidence to the contrary, that they buy it and bottle it, and I'm not positive they even do their own bottling.

cowdery
11-30-2011, 11:14
I heard from Mike Williams, proprietor of Collier and McKeel, and he assures me that they made every drop of their Collier and McKeel Tennessee Whiskey. I have no reason to doubt him and stand corrected. Sorry about the misinformation. It came from a generally reliable source but one who is also prone to mischief-making. Mike was very nice about correcting me.

The current release is whiskey aged four to six months in new barrels.

He also provided the following information.

We make 100% of our product in a 575 gallon still in Nashville, Tennessee.

Our mash bill is 70% corn, 15% rye and 15% malt. We are currently aging in 15 gallon barrels, although we are beginning to fill some 53 gallon barrels for longer aging. Our plan is to migrate into larger barrels.

We burn our own sugar maple for the Lincoln County Process, it is cut on or near our farm in Middle Tennessee.

Josh
11-30-2011, 11:28
Thanks for updating us, Chuck. They seem to be using less corn than JD or GD. I'm glad their setting some aside in 53 gallon barrels. I'm surprised how few micros are doing that. Anyway, should be interesting stuff.

fivedime
11-30-2011, 19:34
Thanks for updating us, Chuck.
Ditto! Thanks for the added info! Sounds like the C & M folks are doing things right.

cowdery
12-01-2011, 12:50
Mike is a former lobbyist and state legislator. I'm glad he's finally found honest work.

B.B. Babington
12-01-2011, 20:24
...I'm glad their setting some aside in 53 gallon barrels. I'm surprised how few micros are doing that...Yes, this bodes well for the future of micro industry! ...and our taste buds. Of course they want to sell a lot to quickly re-coup investment costs, but it seems prudent to produce excess for longer aging if they have storage facilities for barrels.

tmckenzie
12-02-2011, 03:26
there are several who are doing that right now. The majority of what we make goes into 53's. We should be completly done with the little barrels in another year or so.

kbrighton
12-02-2011, 08:39
Stopped in one of the 27 Binny's stores yesterday and saw that for $99 (tax not included) you can age a bottle of that Cedar Ridge Unaged Whiskey with the enclosed 1 liter barrel in the package kit now being sold. The packages were featured in the same area of the other holiday gift packages. I never paid much attention but think Wasmunds did this with 2 bottles and a 2 liter barrel at the same price a while back. I passed on the Cedar Ridge kit, thank you very much, and bought a Mellow Corn at $13.99 instead.

Binnys is the most expensive place to buy our products. You would be better off to make the 3 hour drive over here and get it from our retail store. We have the unaged whiskey for 25 bucks here, without the barrel.

tommyboy38
12-05-2011, 22:32
I've seen the barrel and bottle for less than $70.
The only problem I had with it was that the white dog was 80 proof and then they say to add water to top off the barrel. Can't you skip the water?
Do I want 60 proof bourbon coming out?
NO!
I want 120 proof bourbon!

I also had a chance to sample some Cedar Ridge this weekend at a local store. It was much better than I was expecting.

T Comp
12-06-2011, 06:49
...The only problem I had with it was that the white dog was 80 proof and then they say to add water to top off the barrel. ...

Tom, The one I saw, the kit that is, had the 100 proof white dog with it. Saw one at another retailer recently at $59 and that's not a bad price for the barrel alone based on what Independent Stave was getting for these tiny barrels at KBF iirc.

kbrighton
12-06-2011, 07:45
Tom, The one I saw, the kit that is, had the 100 proof white dog with it. Saw one at another retailer recently at $59 and that's not a bad price for the barrel alone based on what Independent Stave was getting for these tiny barrels at KBF iirc.

This is correct. We bottle the white at 100, so you can dilute to 80 in the barrel if you wish.

BFerguson
01-28-2012, 18:31
I'll finally raise my hand on this on, but with a caveat.

By itself, not so much. it really doesn't bear much of a resemblance to it's final form, and just really cannot compete for a major place in the market. It's like comparing a glass of milk to a well aged chedder, or some Maytag blue. The final mutation always blows away the initial starting product.

For the last couple of days the misses and I have been on a bit of mojito kick, I think we're trying to hold on to the memories of the sunny 80 degree days of vacation not long ago.

The other day while making a round and seeing the bottle of 10 Cane getting low, the mental note was made to pick some more up on the next run to the store. Giving the bottle a quick sniff, it reminded me slightly of the bottle of Death's Door White Whiskey that I had opened and set aside some time back. Interesting to taste, but like most, not something to just drink on its own.

A couple minutes later for a bunker search, and said bottle is pouring into the glass.

Verdict, quite serviceable, and possible preferable to the rum. Thinking it over, whiskey generally pairs very well with both mint-ala Julep, and citrus-sours and others, so why not in a mojito??

End result, a quite happy me with having a good use for something that would have languish for a long time.

So gentlemen, before tossing out those dogs that many of you have after trying them for tasting purposes, give this a try.

B

tmckenzie
01-29-2012, 05:28
I will tell you, our GT corn makes one hell of a margarita and a bloody mary. The bloody mary tastes like corn chips and salsa.

LostBottle
01-29-2012, 11:18
White dog is not for me and it accounts for approximately 0.0% of my spirits consumption.

There is a lot to be said for leaving whiskey in a barrel and letting that thing called time run its course. I see white dog as a trend that is having it's day (I have come across way to many hipsters who claim they love it). This trend is being pushed by craft distilleries that are too new to have any aged product and, perhaps, lack the resources to do some good blending in the meantime. White dog equals instant revenue - it is a way to keep the doors open, not a way to supply customers with quality product.

silverfish
01-29-2012, 13:20
I will tell you, our GT corn makes one hell of a margarita and a bloody mary. The bloody mary tastes like corn chips and salsa.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a bottle of GT open and will
offer it up next time my mrs. is considering a Bloody Mary at
brunch.

bllygthrd
07-20-2012, 19:34
I like white whiskey ... much better than the strawberry and apple pie [yuck] moonshine my peers try to pawn off on me. I find that the hints of "creamed corn" really refreshing ... and its nice to have a "clear" spirit with flavor ...

callmeox
07-20-2012, 19:41
I like white whiskey ... much better than the strawberry and apple pie [yuck] moonshine my peers try to pawn off on me. I find that the hints of "creamed corn" really refreshing ... and its nice to have a "clear" spirit with flavor ...

I prefer real fruit brandies when I'm in the mood for clear spirits with flavor. I'll take a good kirschwasser, framboise and slivovitz over bourbon white dog any day and I'm sorry that I missed out on the peach brandy that Finger Lakes made a season or two back.

tmckenzie
07-21-2012, 05:23
We may make some more down the road. You can get a chance to buy some aged though. How that came about is, we fermented the peach and ran it through our pot still one time. Then took half of it down to mt vernon and doubled it in the wood fired copper stills. It is aging in uncharred oak there now for sale in a year or so. It was a real treat though as white dog.

ebo
07-21-2012, 08:03
I don't mind a nip of white whiskey from time to time, but I usually don't go out of my way to aquire it. On another note: technically, isn't Blanco Tequila "white dog"?

callmeox
07-21-2012, 08:08
We may make some more down the road. You can get a chance to buy some aged though. How that came about is, we fermented the peach and ran it through our pot still one time. Then took half of it down to mt vernon and doubled it in the wood fired copper stills. It is aging in uncharred oak there now for sale in a year or so. It was a real treat though as white dog.

Please look me up when it gets bottled. I would love to get my hands on some.

cowdery
07-22-2012, 13:11
The original point of this thread was to see if there is anyone who drinks the stuff regularly and the answer seems to be "no." This is not good news for the micro-producers who have staked their business on it.

Down at Maker's last week, they gave us some white dog in the tasting. I like MM white dog and helped myself to a second glass, which caused a slight upset stomach a bit later in the day.

petrel800
07-27-2012, 20:01
I probably could drink the White Dog they gave us off the still at the BT Hard Hat tour. It was fantastic fresh, but when I tasted the stuff in the tasting room out of the bottle, lump me in with the no thanks crowd.

soonami
07-28-2012, 21:33
Inspired by this thread up picked up some Georgia Moon when I ran into it for $10. Haven't tried it yet, but looking forward to it. At the very least, it might be a nice substitute for Vodka in some

RickWrightson
12-15-2012, 15:22
I know that this thread is a little stale but I think Cowdery's intent is a good one - are the craft guys chasing the wrong (white) dog? Does Maker's Mark entry into the market suggest that they think the craft guys are onto something? Is it drinkable or is it a mixologist's delight? Does that dog have a bite or is it just a barking puppy? Cowdery's tummy may be a tale-tale sign. However, I have the same interest and I've been buying moonshine, white dog, white whisk(e)y whenever I come across them (which is not easy). My intent is to nose/taste and compare them, making note of the grains used, etc.

I think that the craft guys are going to be bringing a lot to the party. They will break with traditions and try different grains, different proofs, etc and I'm sure that something new and good - in the realm of unaged, white spirit, will come out of the process. Here's what I have on my shelf at this point:
Wasmund's Single Malt Spirit (100% Malted Barley) 62% abv
Ole Smoky Tennessee Moonshine - White Lightnin' (Neutral Spirits) 50% abv
Death's Door White Whisky (no grain specified) 40% abv
Low Gap Whiskey-Clear (Malted Bavarian Hard Wheat) 42.3% abv
Bully Boy Whiskey (Organic Wheat) 40% abv

I find it interesting that none of these spirits specify corn as the grain, which is what we usually think of when we think 'white dog'. Also interesting is the use of 'whisk(e)y on the label when the TTB Standards of Identity state that 'whiskey' comes from a spirit that has been aged in oak containers - but, that's not really germane to this discussion.

Again, as Cowdery suggests, I think we will see some interesting spirits coming down the line in the future. There will be some that will be difficult to camouflage by any mixologist but some, I'm sure, we will find we will be able to drink 'neat'. For instance, my son was in a high end bar in Boston recently and bartender told him that he had recently tasted Prichard's new single malt barley white whiskey and he found it good.

So, I think we have interesting times ahead of us.

kingcohiba
12-15-2012, 15:37
i like it better than moonshine. i have only tried the buffalo trace wheated though. i wish i could find some more! i paid 13$for 375 ml.

sku
12-15-2012, 15:38
Also interesting is the use of 'whisk(e)y on the label when the TTB Standards of Identity state that 'whiskey' comes from a spirit that has been aged in oak containers - but, that's not really germane to this discussion.

The TTB requires them to put the spirit in the barrel in order to meet the definition of whiskey. Most of them just put it into a barrel and then empty it right back out again which complies with the regs since there is no minimum aging time. The ones that don't use a barrel at all can call their spirit "moonshine" or "white dog" but not whiskey. It seems to be one of the few regs the TTB still enforces.

squire
12-15-2012, 15:52
Sure the stuff has a use, shaken, not stirred.

RickWrightson
12-15-2012, 19:13
Here's a link to a Forbes article on white whiskey and five different craft guys using five different grains. http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeslifestyle/2012/09/07/the-eye/

cowdery
12-17-2012, 17:46
The TTB requires them to put the spirit in the barrel in order to meet the definition of whiskey. Most of them just put it into a barrel and then empty it right back out again which complies with the regs since there is no minimum aging time. The ones that don't use a barrel at all can call their spirit "moonshine" or "white dog" but not whiskey. It seems to be one of the few regs the TTB still enforces.

Not exactly, since 'moonshine' and 'white dog' are not legal types. Every distilled spirit sold has to fall into some established TTB classification. That's why most producers, if they can, use the in-and-out ruse to get the 'whiskey' designation. This is what the Jack Daniel's Rye fuss (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2012/10/ttb-says-jack-daniels-unaged-rye-isnt.html) is all about, and I'll be anxious to see if the decision to label it grain neutral spirit (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2012/10/ttb-says-jack-daniels-unaged-rye-isnt.html) holds when it finally appears on the market next year.

HighInTheMtns
12-17-2012, 17:49
Not exactly, since 'moonshine' and 'white dog' are not legal types. Every distilled spirit sold has to fall into some established TTB classification. That's why most producers, if they can, use the in-and-out ruse to get the 'whiskey' designation. This is what the Jack Daniel's Rye fuss (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2012/10/ttb-says-jack-daniels-unaged-rye-isnt.html) is all about, and I'll be anxious to see if the decision to label it grain neutral spirit (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2012/10/ttb-says-jack-daniels-unaged-rye-isnt.html) holds when it finally appears on the market next year.
Someone reported purchasing a bottle a few days ago: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313130