PDA

View Full Version : George Dickel: Diageo's red headed step child.



jmpyle
03-12-2011, 15:55
I like George Dickel. I like it a lot. I find the No. 12 to be one of the best whiskey values on the planet. So can someone that is perhaps more aware of the whys inform me how Diageo can leave Dickel off of its website? I've written the company now 3 times with no response. How is this possible that one of the oldest American Whiskey brands gets not play, no push, and no love from the company that owns it?

sku
03-12-2011, 21:11
I raised a similar issue last fall; the discussion might be of interest to you:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14603

CaptainQ
03-12-2011, 22:33
Just had the old No. 12 tonight. Very good whiskey, especially for the price.

Brisko
03-13-2011, 07:33
I love it, but I'd just as soon they leave it alone. You want it to be priced like Lagavulin is now?

jmpyle
03-13-2011, 07:39
Brisko, I certainly don't want it priced out the wazoo, but I'd like to see them doing something with the brand. Actually, quite honestly I'm just pissed they aren't putting it on their website. Bulleit and other others are right there. It's unreal when you think about it.

And Sku, thanks as always. Will check it out. I did a search before posting, but I clearly overlooked this one. Thanks.

nor02lei
03-13-2011, 08:15
Brisko, I certainly don't want it priced out the wazoo, but I'd like to see them doing something with the brand.

Me to Jason, like releasing an unfiltered higher proof brand for instance.

Leif

White Dog
03-13-2011, 09:38
Since when has Diageo ever done anything for the connoisseur? They're one of the most bottom-line driven companies you'll ever come across.

jmpyle
03-13-2011, 10:21
Since when has Diageo ever done anything for the connoisseur? They're one of the most bottom-line driven companies you'll ever come across.

Boy isn't that the truth.

ebo
03-14-2011, 17:33
Dickel 12 is a mainstay in my house. I agree that it is one of the best values to be had.

Josh
03-15-2011, 08:00
Sku started a similar thread a while back: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14603

squire
03-15-2011, 18:31
The only changes I would like to see are stated age (10yr) or BIB.

StraightBoston
03-16-2011, 12:34
No love for the Barrel Select? (Although still a little light on proof...)

Can't stand the No. 8 and Cascade Hollow; love the No. 12, especially as a value pour. Don't care whether Diageo pushes it or not...

ThomasH
03-17-2011, 14:03
Diageo already did something with it: they raised the price. Before the shutdown induced shortage, the price of no.12 was 15.00 a 750. After the shortage and introduction of Cascade hollow, it went up to 22.00 a 750!

Thomas

squire
03-17-2011, 16:24
I guess they decided those who like it will buy it and so long as it's profitable don't waste advertising dollars.

jmpyle
03-27-2011, 07:04
Diageo already did something with it: they raised the price. Before the shutdown induced shortage, the price of no.12 was 15.00 a 750. After the shortage and introduction of Cascade hollow, it went up to 22.00 a 750!

Thomas

Thomas, perhaps it is $22 in places but I find it in my area, not exactly a cheap area for whiskey, for $18.99. I've seen it in shops for $16.99 in other locations. So I wonder if this is more a situation where the area distributor or the shop is taking advantage here.

ebo
03-27-2011, 08:17
Dickel 12 is $22.00 in my area, also.

squire
03-27-2011, 15:08
A little over $18 here, not a bad price but there are others in that range that I prefer.

flintlock
03-27-2011, 15:28
I guess they decided those who like it will buy it and so long as it's profitable don't waste advertising dollars.

I think this may be the answer. I've read that Dickel's sales are what they are, and nothing much moves them. Jack is the bad boy, down home, fun loving, rock and roll iconic whiskey. :rolleyes: Dickel would have to find some other position and advertise the heck out of itself to make gains. They tried the "we taste really good" tack in the late 70's with "Water's for (fill in the blank), Dickel's for drinkin'." They showed people doing things with water (bathing, canoeing, fishing, etc.) other than put it in their smooth Dickel whiskey, which you could (by inference) drink neat.

I am not really sure taste is the most profitable way to market alcohol. Most people drink it for TOTALLY different reasons.

sku
03-27-2011, 15:44
I am not really sure taste is the most profitable way to market alcohol. Most people drink it for TOTALLY different reasons.

Sad but true. They'd probably do better with, Drink Dickel, it will get you girls, make you cool and f*** you up.

flintlock
03-27-2011, 16:19
Sad but true. They'd probably do better with, Drink Dickel, it will get you girls, make you cool and f*** you up.

It worked for vodka, am I right?

cowdery
03-27-2011, 18:07
I think this may be the answer. I've read that Dickel's sales are what they are, and nothing much moves them.

That's exactly right. They give Dickel a little bit of support and took advantage of the black label 'shortage' to create the red label and raise the price on black. Flintlock has it exactly right, though, the Dickel brand sells what it sells with virtually no support and support seems not to increase sales enough to justify that support. They're probably doing a few small things to reinforce their loyal customers and leaving it at that. Less than 20 years ago they spent a lot of money trying to grow the brand and were not successful. Maybe they'll try again, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

squire
03-27-2011, 19:34
I remember the print ads from that period, remember them mostly for being unimpressive. I mean, I am a Dickel fan and I didn't care for them. The tag line, "Ain't nuthin better", while perhaps historically accurate, just sounded cheesy.

cowdery
03-27-2011, 21:03
I think of McDonald's versus Burger King. McDonald's has had this very consistent advertising image for decades, whereas Burger King is completely repositioned with every new ad campaign. It's the same way with Jack and George. Jack has had this consistent image and George doesn't know what it wants to be. And McDonald's is much more successful than Burger King, just as Jack is much more successful than George.

All things considered, Diageo is probably smart to leave the brand alone.

squire
03-28-2011, 06:05
I was mindful of that same comparison Chuck. I was reared in a Deep South Bourbon culture and George was widely considered to be a Jack copy and Dickel did little in their ads to dispel that notion. I suspect the internet has indirectly done more promotion for Dickel than they ever did on purpose.

flintlock
03-29-2011, 19:05
I remember the print ads from that period, remember them mostly for being unimpressive. I mean, I am a Dickel fan and I didn't care for them. The tag line, "Ain't nuthin better", while perhaps historically accurate, just sounded cheesy.

And they couldn't have been cheap, either - each of the ads was a really beautiful painting a'la Norman Rockwell. Much more expensive than photography.

jmpyle
03-29-2011, 20:23
I don't know, I just don't understand leaving something like Dickel alone. Of course I've never left well enough alone. :lol:

I think what you guys seem to be talking about are ad and marketing campaigns. That's great and all, but it's mostly cooked up by in house marketing teams or 3rd party consultants that are trying to be too cute. And they cost big money. Absolutely I agree that Diageo would be better off not going there.

However, there's a great deal of educating that Dickel could be doing about their brand, it's history, the LCP and why their's is different. I *think* they could do this without loosing their typical customer. And again, we're not talking about big money stuff here.

But what do I know.

ebo
03-29-2011, 20:35
I think this may be the answer. I've read that Dickel's sales are what they are, and nothing much moves them. Jack is the bad boy, down home, fun loving, rock and roll iconic whiskey. :rolleyes: Dickel would have to find some other position and advertise the heck out of itself to make gains. They tried the "we taste really good" tack in the late 70's with "Water's for (fill in the blank), Dickel's for drinkin'." They showed people doing things with water (bathing, canoeing, fishing, etc.) other than put it in their smooth Dickel whiskey, which you could (by inference) drink neat.

I am not really sure taste is the most profitable way to market alcohol. Most people drink it for TOTALLY different reasons.
And that's too bad, because Dickel 12 is so much better than Jack Black.

ebo
03-29-2011, 20:39
I think of McDonald's versus Burger King. McDonald's has had this very consistent advertising image for decades, whereas Burger King is completely repositioned with every new ad campaign. It's the same way with Jack and George. Jack has had this consistent image and George doesn't know what it wants to be. And McDonald's is much more successful than Burger King, just as Jack is much more successful than George.

All things considered, Diageo is probably smart to leave the brand alone.
Agreed. It's definitely the same thing. I think Burger King is better than McDonald's, just as I think Dickel is better than Jack. But, marketing always seems to win over quality.

flintlock
04-06-2011, 18:04
You gotta think big picture. It's big picture to not to spend a bajillion dollars advertising something if it probably won't increase sales. I am NOT a big picture guy - probably the reason I drive a 1996 Honda Civic.

Besides - all they need to do is product-place a bottle of Dickel in the next James Bond movie and they won't be able to fill the barrels fast enough.

boss302
04-11-2011, 09:51
And that's too bad, because Dickel 12 is so much better than Jack Black.

Heck, for that matter, Dickel 8 is better than Jack Black!

Jack doesn't really get better than George until you get to Jack Single Barrel-- arguably better than George 8 or 12. But then George pretty much effectively counters with the more mature (and significantly cheaper) Barrel Select.

The success of Jack Daniels is equivalent to that of Woodford Reserve-- very reliant on Brown-Foreman's marketing muscle.

Josh
04-11-2011, 10:30
As I muse on the topic it seems to me that all the major distillers have a brand like Dickel that receives little or no marketing support but is profitable enough on its own to justify its existance. Coincidentally (or not) most of them are pre-pro "olds":

Beam: Old Grand-dad
Brown-Forman: Old Forester
Buffalo Trace: Old Charter
Heaven Hill: Old Fitzgerald
Tom Moore: Everything they make except 1792

Not sure what to make of that, it's just kind of interesting.

ebo
04-12-2011, 19:14
As I muse on the topic it seems to me that all the major distillers have a brand like Dickel that receives little or no marketing support but is profitable enough on its own to justify its existance. Coincidentally (or not) most of them are pre-pro "olds":

Beam: Old Grand-dad
Brown-Forman: Old Forester
Buffalo Trace: Old Charter
Heaven Hill: Old Fitzgerald
Tom Moore: Everything they make except 1792

Not sure what to make of that, it's just kind of interesting.
1792 is one that I've never tried. It's available to me. I've thought about purchasing a bottle, but I'm reluctant to spend the money on something I can't taste before hand. Should I?

CaptainQ
04-12-2011, 20:13
1792 is one that I've never tried. It's available to me. I've thought about purchasing a bottle, but I'm reluctant to spend the money on something I can't taste before hand. Should I?

Yes, very tasty bourbon. Although the Very Old Barton BIB and 90 proof are a better bargain and just as good.

cigarnv
04-13-2011, 04:09
GD12 is truly the classic sippin whiskey that IMO blows JD out of the water with the exception of their SS.

ebo
04-13-2011, 18:59
GD12 is truly the classic sippin whiskey that IMO blows JD out of the water with the exception of their SS.
Yeah, GD 12 is infinitely better than JD. Ilike JDSB quite a bit, but GD 12 is even better than that, IMO.

STLbourbon
10-31-2011, 20:36
Great to find this thread at the moment. It's halloween night, 2011, and I've been sitting around the fire handing out treats and sipping bourbon/whiskey all night. Closing the night with GD#12 and I must admit that for the first time I finally get this stuff.

There's a distinct flavor that stands out with George Dickel #12. It's definitely an orangey candy kind of reminder. Anyway, for some reason that flavor was too dominant to me upon first tastings. But tonight it's opened up for me and that aspect has blended into the greater whole. Now I taste the whole whiskey here. It's really good on a lot of levels. I kind of thought this moment would come eventually and it has. Just a great taste, balanced, flavorful, has that depth and interesting complexity that comes with a good recipe and age, all that stuff. It really does go to show you that the business of marketing is so powerful. This is such a far superior whiskey compared to JD and many others. I hate to even have to lump it into that Tennessee camp because it deserves to be in context with finer "bourbons".

I get it. Yeah!

STLb