View Full Version : Deconstructing Black Maple Hill.
The attached memo just came into my possession and I knew it would be of interest here.
This illustrates my contention that although companies will rarely tell an outright lie, they will twist themselves into pretzels to mislead you or, at least, avoid telling you the whole truth.
Case in point. "Black Maple Hill has no connection whatsoever with Heaven Hill."
Let's review what we know. I'm not a big BMH guy, so please correct anything I might have wrong.
Black Maple Hill has always been owned and distributed by CVI Brands of San Carlos, California.
The first Black Maple Hill releases were bottled by Julian Van Winkle at the old Hoffman/Commonwealth Distillery outside of Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. That whiskey is believed to have been made at the Medley Distillery in Owensboro.
When Julian left Lawrenceburg the bottling -- and assumed business name -- for BMH went to KBD in Bardstown, where it remains to this day. Since neither CVI nor KBD is a distiller, the whiskey has to have been made somewhere else. Where? Who knows, really. Maybe they're still tapping those old Medley barrels.
Every BMH COLA approved since 2001 has been for DSP-KY-78, which is KBD.
Heaven Hill, of course, is right across the street from KBD and while the folks at KBD get pissy when someone says that all of KBD's whiskey comes from HH, I don't think they can plausibly deny that most of it comes from there.
Now "Black Maple Hill has no connection whatsoever with Heaven Hill" is not the same as saying "There is not one drop of Heaven Hill-made whiskey in any bottle of Black Maple Hill." But their denial would certainly be disingenuous if, in fact, it is Heaven Hill whiskey procured via KBD.
Is it?
If CVI wanted to be transparent and, therefore, credible in refuting "the Bloggers and Tweeters on the Internet" they wouldn't just deny a relationship with Heaven Hill, they would reveal who actually makes their whiskey. But in the absence of facts you inevitably encourage "pure speculation."
So, gang, what else do we know?
Actually that memo is correct, or at least I logically assume.
CVI gets bottles from KBD.
KBD gets whiskey from HH.
Therefore CVI and HH are clueless about each other.
My point exactly, literally true yet deliberately misleading.
So I get my whisky from a guy who gets it from a guy with whom I have no connection whatsoever. Well that statement ought to get the customers out in droves.
callmeox
03-19-2011, 16:08
Well, at least they didn't take the "eff you for asking" angle taken by their bottling partner.
Virus_Of_Life
03-19-2011, 19:29
The first Black Maple Hill releases were bottled by Julian Van Winkle at the old Hoffman/Commonwealth Distillery outside of Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. That whiskey is believed to have been made at the Medley Distillery in Owensboro.
I thought the original was S-W? Not that it matters, but recall reading something about similarities to other VW.
TNbourbon
03-19-2011, 20:01
I thought the original was S-W? Not that it matters, but recall reading something about similarities to other VW.
Medley WOULD BE "something about similarities to other VW" -- the original VW ryes were from Medley stock (and probably still contain a modicum of Medley in the mix).
As to the topic -- and aside from the double-speak nonsense -- I wonder if CVI even knows where its whiskey comes from (don't the Kulsveens hide the barrel heads during barrel selections?). Which is a separate question than whether CVI knows its whiskey from a hole in the bung -- er, a bung in the a...; um, I mean a hole in the...Well, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!:smiley_acbt:
barturtle
03-19-2011, 20:02
I thought the original was S-W? Not that it matters, but recall reading something about similarities to other VW.
Yes it was: padpadpadpadpadpadpad
I was at liquor store today that had bottles of 11, 14, 16, and 21 YO Black Maple Hill. These were all bottled in Bardstown. This means it was probably not Julian's bourbon, but from another source. The 14 and 16 YO have received good reviews on this site (despite my thoughts about some other of EK's bottlings).
They also had a 15 YO rye, but I did not check to see where it was bottled.
While doing a google search on Black maple hill, I came across a post from Julian with some history:
"I was crusing your site to see if you ever had ever writen anything about Van Winkle whiskey and noticed the questions about Black Maple Hill.
I indeed bottled this whiskey over the last few years for a distributor in Califonia. He sold it to several markets around the country, but not here in louisville. It was my Van Winkle whiskey under abother label. The ages bottled were 14, 16, 18 & even some 20-year. There was alos a rye whiskey which was mine. All the Van Winkle whiskey would have been in bottled dislaying the "Bottled in Lawrenceburg,KY" address. Since I now do all my bottling at Buffalo Trace in Frankfort, the Califonia distributor is now buying his whiskey and having the bottling done in Bardstown at KY Bourbon Distillers. The whiskey is quite differnt now. I am short of Van Winkle whiskey so I cold not acconodate the Black Maple Hill label anymore.
I hope this answers a few questions.
Julian"
Does HH have 21 YO bourbon available? I know they have exported a 21YO bourbon before.
doubleblank
03-20-2011, 06:49
Not to get tooooooooo technical, but Julian says he used "Van Winkle" whiskey, not specifically SW. As we all know, he was sourcing some of his his early bottlings from other distilleries. His original Pappy 20yo was from the Boone Distillery and his 23yo was from ????????? (He won't say).
I do believe that most of those early BMH's done by Julian were SW whiskey. I brought a BMH 14yo to the Sampler in 2004 and it tasted like SW to me and everyone else that tried it.
Not knowing exactly what CVI is upset about from bloggers and tweeters, but my guess is that people on the net are opining "BMH tastes like HH whiskey and was probably distilled there".....and not "BMH is connected with HH". And if this is the "opinion" they are refuting, then saying they are disingenuous is being polite.
Randy
May as well be polite Randy, truth will out.
Generally, though admittedly not always, when Julian said something was 'his' whiskey, that was code for SW wheated bourbon. It also meant whiskey he sourced, as opposed to whiskey his customer sourced and just hired Julian to bottle, so that he was functioning as both broker and bottler. But, of course, the vast majority of what he sourced was SW wheater, much like KBD where the vast majority of what they source is Heaven Hill.
I suspect what's getting back to CVI is "why pay $90 for Black Maple Hill when if you want an extra-aged Heaven Hill whiskey, you can buy Elijah Craig 18-year-old for less than $40?"
They obviously don't care what "Bloggers and Tweeters on the Internet" think, but if it's influencing their wholesale and retail customers, that's a problem, so they issue this seemingly definitive statement, with lots of bold-faced type, that's just dripping with weasel words and obfuscation. How can this be a good thing for them?
(I have a little more fun with it on my blog here (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2011/03/deconstruction-of-black-maple-hill.html).)
Never know where they've been indeed, I wouldn't kiss one.
They obviously don't care what "Bloggers and Tweeters on the Internet" think, but if it's influencing their wholesale and retail customers, that's a problem, so they issue this seemingly definitive statement, with lots of bold-faced type, that's just dripping with weasel words and obfuscation. How can this be a good thing for them?
It can't and I expect (or really hope) that it will continue as a big problem. The clock is not going to be turned back on all the whiskey information that is now so readily accessible to enthusiasts. Couple this phenomena with the marketing that has already happened with perishable foods in both restaurants and grocery stores. It's more than just where it's coming from but specifically what farms. The emergence of craft distillers and their need to market on methods of distillation or the color and place of the grains, is another influencing trend on the consumer and continuing pressure on the industry. It will probably still take some more time but the CVI letter might be a good indication that "the times they are a changing". For me personally, they should come clean or they and others like them just ain't going to get my business, which may not be as little as they think.
Chuck or anyone else: Michter's is bottled by KBD as well. Does anyone know for certain where the Michter's juice comes from? If so, recently I've tasted a lot of it and BMH, particularly the small batch. There is a definite similarity between Michter's Unblended American Whiskey and Black Maple Hill Small Batch in terms of nose and flavor. I urge anyone to give them a comparison and I think you'll find the same. If anyone knows who distill's Michter's, I'd bet the farm that's who's doing BMH.
And as a side note, these products mentioned above taste little or nothing like HH's primary mash bill used for EC12, 18 and EWSB. Doesn't mean it's not HH juice, just saying that to me it clearly doesn't taste like any of those HH products.
I'm kinda new here but I just have to say that I love all this "cloak and dagger" stuff about where the bourbon or rye that is in these bottles was actually distilled! I happen to like the taste of most of the KBD stuff and all the Van Winkle stuff. I guess this goes for the Wathen's as well. It is interesting to try to figure out where they really were distilled. As for the LDI rye (High West, Templeton and now Bulleit Rye), I think there is a lot of great flavor there and they are some of my favorite whiskeys.
IowaJeff
03-21-2011, 10:46
They should either just say where they source their whiskey from (which I understand they probably cannot for contractual reasons) or stay quiet and let the speculation happen. Unless the speculation is that they source from China or some crappy distillery just let it be. Leave it at a statement to the effect of "BMH is a [insert description and superlatives]. In creating BMH, we seek out the finest bourbon from the best distilleries in Kentucky. Only bourbon of the highest quality that fits the legendary BMH flavor profile is chosen."
In response to accusations or inquiries simply state that you are contractually obligated to not disclose the sources. And furthermore, KBD's sources can change over time to ensure that KBD continues to provide award-winning bourbon at the most economical prices.
I don't think I've ever had a KBD product. Just don't see it on the shelves around here.
That "contractually obligated" excuse is usually a lie too.
IowaJeff
03-21-2011, 11:22
That "contractually obligated" excuse is usually a lie too.
Yeah, I wasn't sure about that. Is it more economics-driven secrecy? For example, If KBD buys bourbon from a distillery, say Kevin Still, at a price where KBD can price its juice lower than similarly aged Kevin Still juice, Kevin Still would surely require non-disclosure from KBD so people don't see Kevin Still bourbon on the shelf at a higher price next to bourbon known to be sourced from Kevin Still at a lower price.
In the more likely, opposite scenario, where Kevin Still is sure its price will beat KBD, or is otherwise not in competition with Kevin Still whiskey, Kevin Still doesn't care if KBD discloses their source. In this scenario its in KBD's interest to keep it under wraps.
TNbourbon
03-21-2011, 11:48
...And as a side note, these products mentioned above taste little or nothing like HH's primary mash bill used for EC12, 18 and EWSB. Doesn't mean it's not HH juice, just saying that to me it clearly doesn't taste like any of those HH products.
I'm pretty sure I remember, in a conversation with Drew at one of the SB.com gatherings some time back, he said that some of what KBD does get from Heaven Hill is made to KBD specifications. In other words, Heaven Hill is contract distilling for KBD, using other than a standard HH mash bill and/or yeast.
I'm pretty sure I remember, in a conversation with Drew at one of the SB.com gatherings some time back, he said that some of what KBD does get from Heaven Hill is made to KBD specifications. In other words, Heaven Hill is contract distilling for KBD, using other than a standard HH mash bill and/or yeast.
That makes sense and it would be a marketing plus in my opinion.
At least the consumer knows that they are getting something original
rather than identical to another brand. Even saying they have select barrels
going into their bottles is a plus. You need something to justify a higher price.
I'm pretty sure I remember, in a conversation with Drew at one of the SB.com gatherings some time back, he said that some of what KBD does get from Heaven Hill is made to KBD specifications. In other words, Heaven Hill is contract distilling for KBD, using other than a standard HH mash bill and/or yeast.
Good info. That I didn't think about, and it would make sense.
I'm pretty sure I remember, in a conversation with Drew at one of the SB.com gatherings some time back, he said that some of what KBD does get from Heaven Hill is made to KBD specifications. In other words, Heaven Hill is contract distilling for KBD, using other than a standard HH mash bill and/or yeast.
That's interesting.
I had always assumed the differences were entirely due to aging. If they do have their own mashbill, they must not use it for everything. I've had bottles of Willet, especially younger ones, that screamed HH with every sip. Mint and eucalyptus out the proverbial wazoo.
, in a conversation with Drew at one of the SB.com gatherings some time back, he said that some of what KBD does get from Heaven Hill is made to KBD specifications. In other words, Heaven Hill is contract distilling for KBD, using other than a standard HH mash bill and/or yeast.
That's interesting.
I had always assumed the differences were entirely due to aging. If they do have their own mashbill, they must not use it for everything. I've had bottles of Willet, especially younger ones, that screamed HH with every sip. Mint and eucalyptus out the proverbial wazoo.
I am spectical.
Think about this, bourbon has to age for years.
Hey I ain't saying, but I'm just saying.
I'm skeptical too, but it's not implausible. KBD has been buying whiskey from Heaven Hill for a very long time. Probably some of it is under long-term contract and it would make sense for KBD to buy new make and age it themselves, since they have that capability. That's certainly better for Heaven Hill, because they don't have to find room for it in their warehouses. Bernheim was designed to be able to easily make many different products, so that part is plausible too. KBD is really small. They don't need a lot of whiskey. They might pick up a little bit here and a little bit there. They are, among other things, the buyer of last resort for barrels that some people would say are over-oaked. They find customers for that sort of thing.
As for the secrecy, the last person who cares is the seller, especially Heaven Hill. That's why I doubt these 'contractual' claims. Since Heaven Hill's cheapest retail product is the Heaven Hill brand, Heaven Hill isn't worried about anybody undercutting them with their own whiskey.
I can imagine Jack Daniel's or even Jim Beam requiring a non-disclose but not Heaven Hill.
It's usually the marketing company selling the bulk whiskey product that wants to keep the origins secret, not because it matters if you know it's Heaven Hill or Brown-Forman, Beam or BT, that made the whiskey, but because then you'll know that Little Old Brown Jug Distillery didn't make it and that's the secret they're trying to keep.
And contrary to what some people have said, it is not fun to try to guess who made this and that. It is a pain in the ass, and that's why I don't respect companies that won't tell us who made their whiskey. I consider that insulting and I don't do business with people who insult me. That includes KBD. I don't enjoy the game. I wish everyone would refuse to buy anonymous whiskey so it will go away.
callmeox
03-21-2011, 15:45
I am spectical.
Think about this, bourbon has to age for years.
Hey I ain't saying, but I'm just saying.
http://svr225.stepx.com:3388/salt-chemistry/file/43131.jpg
And, as luck would have it, the special KBD mashbill matches the HH mashbill EXACTLY! :grin:
Ray your post struck me as a refreshing breeze wafting through this thread. There is a lot to be said for simply following your own tastes and interests.
I don't patronize the high priced non producing distributors because I am getting a recycled whisky at a cost sometimes much larger than what the real producer provides on the same shelf.
I don't have a problem with a distributor buying and reselling whisky, within reason, just don't try to convince me it's made by gnomes under the supervision of elves in a special little hollow known of only by a few and I should feel privileged to even have an opportunity to sample this nectar.
http://svr225.stepx.com:3388/salt-chemistry/file/43131.jpg
And, as luck would have it, the special KBD mashbill matches the HH mashbill EXACTLY! :grin:
Scott you beat me to it.
I don't get it.:fish2: :fish2: :fish2:
Actually that memo is correct, or at least I logically assume.
CVI gets bottles from KBD.
KBD gets whiskey from HH.
Therefore CVI and HH are clueless about each other.
My point exactly, literally true yet deliberately misleading.
If this is "literally true," then am I to understand that the word "associated" in "Black Maple Hill and Heaven Hill have never been associated with one another" is supposed to be taken as "there is no direct link between Black Maple Hill and Heaven Hill (though there might be an indirect one via a third party)"?
If so, this does violence to the word "associated." When two things are associated, they are connected. "Connected" implies nothing direct. If A covaries with B because A and B are independently caused by C, they are still associated in any meaningful sense of the word. Pardon my naivety here, but surely even legal analysis wouldn't butcher the word "associated" beyond all recognition?!
dbk I doubt the argument, at least on the facts thus far, would stand up under legal analysis.
Josh I was going to post regarding HH using a 'special' mashbill exclusively for KBD as implausible. Even if true what would be the benefit unless KBD also has space set aside in specific areas of specific warehouses at HH to provide aging continuity. Buying existing whisky within defined profiles makes more sense.
This illustrates my contention that although companies will rarely tell an outright lie, they will twist themselves into pretzels to mislead you or, at least, avoid telling you the whole truth.
dbk I doubt the argument, at least on the facts thus far, would stand up under legal analysis.
Well, if that's true, then how is this anything other than an "outright lie"? Sorry if I'm being forceful on this point, but I think some are actually being too soft on these guys. If this is their claim, and there is not one jot of truth to it, then how is it not an outright lie to the consumer?
craigthom
03-21-2011, 17:42
Josh I was going to post regarding HH using a 'special' mashbill exclusively for KBD as implausible. Even if true what would be the benefit unless KBD also has space set aside in specific areas of specific warehouses at HH to provide aging continuity. Buying existing whisky within defined profiles makes more sense.
I'm pretty sure KDB has their own warehouses. You can see them from the Bourbon Heritage Center parking lot. I'm not claiming they are aging whiskey there, but they certainly could be.
EDIT: I can't see the warehouses via Google Streetview, but I think I can on this Google Map (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.78664,-85.466745&spn=0.009479,0.017982&t=h&z=16), in the lower right. I think those are whiskey warehouses, although they are considerably smaller than the Heaven Hill ones in the upper right.
Near the middle are the ruins of DSP-KY 31.
craigthom
03-21-2011, 17:44
Well, if that's true, then how is this anything other than an "outright lie"? Sorry if I'm being forceful on this point, but I think some are actually being too soft on these guys. If this is their claim, and there is not one jot of truth to it, then how is it not an outright lie to the consumer?
How can companies have "distillery" in their name without owning an operating still?
And they certainly may be. I didn't bash Drew when he presented on this Board and I don't now. My point is a partial statement is only that and not very disclosive. If the Kulsveens are having whisky custom made and aging it themselves I should think that would increase, not take away, prestige to their line. It would be easy enough for them to add to the comment, they know where we are.
Well, they do own a distillery, whisky used to be made there.
callmeox
03-21-2011, 17:56
I don't get it.:fish2: :fish2: :fish2:
The photo is a grain of salt.
Not doubting that Tim had a conversation with Drew, but I can't believe that that there's a special mashbill or yeast making its way into the barrels at KBR.
craigthom
03-21-2011, 17:59
KBR.
I see what you did there.
On the facts thus far dbk, enough to raise questions but not enough to proclaim a lie.
That's fine only insofar as the logic follows, squire. If BMH uses no whiskey from Heaven Hill, then no lie was told. If BMI uses any whiskey from Heaven Hill, however, then an outright lie was indeed told. What I'm baffled by is the notion that there could be something in between these two possibilities. There either is—or there isn't—an association between BMH and HH.
dbk I don't think there's anything in between, it is or it isn't. I just don't have the facts and those who have them are not sharing.
But this is my point (and after this, I'll drop it). Chuck's statement that although companies will rarely tell an outright lie, they will twist themselves into pretzels to mislead you or, at least, avoid telling you the whole truth is in fact soft on the matter (and downright un-crotchety if you ask me).
There is no "twisting into pretzels" at all: it's an outright lie or it ain't. I'm satisfied (kind of) that we don't know the truth, but the alternative conclusions to be drawn from the CVI memo are much firmer than "the consumer's being misled." The consumer is either being told the gospel truth—there is no HH whatsoever in BMH—or is being outright lied to—there is indeed HH in BMH.
Josh I was going to post regarding HH using a 'special' mashbill exclusively for KBD as implausible. Even if true what would be the benefit unless KBD also has space set aside in specific areas of specific warehouses at HH to provide aging continuity. Buying existing whisky within defined profiles makes more sense.
I completely agree. I never said it was plausible just interesting. I was trying to say that what Drew told Tim sounds like BS to me w/o implying that Tim misinterpreted what he was saying. Tim's a helluva lot smarter than me, even more so when it comes to bourbon.
And they certainly may be. I didn't bash Drew when he presented on this Board and I don't now. My point is a partial statement is only that and not very disclosive. If the Kulsveens are having whisky custom made and aging it themselves I should think that would increase, not take away, prestige to their line. It would be easy enough for them to add to the comment, they know where we are.
The thing with Drew happened while you were on posting hiatus. See This thread: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13585
White Dog knows how to make an entrance!:lol:
Drew bashed us, we didn't bash Drew. He pretty much told all of us at SB.com to GFOurselves. (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=215661&postcount=44)
The photo is a grain of salt.
Thanks. I'm a little slower than usual these days.
Not doubting that Tim had a conversation with Drew, but I can't believe that that there's a special mashbill or yeast making its way into the barrels at KBR.
Well put.
White Dog
03-21-2011, 20:43
Man was that an ugly thread. I was quite wrong in my very first post, as the current Vintage 17 is actually a wheater from pre-HH Bernheim, so would we still call that HH??:lol: :lol:
And yes, KBD does age in their warehouses, and will say so. (Awesome use of that creepy Google map.)
The BMH letter is just more of the same when it comes to the BS that is practiced by American secondary and tertiary bottlers.:rolleyes:
Josh I read all the posts made during my absence before I began posting again and my reference was to exchanges between Drew and myself when he first became active here. I have no problem with any of the NDP(s) and their business is, well, their business.
If they want me as a customer however it will take more than a pretty story to get me to pay top dollar. If their whisky is special tell me why, otherwise don't expect me to pay special prices.
It should be noted that none of us know who made the BMH whiskey. No one here can say one way or another if it's Heaven Hill. Someone raised the point, plausible to me, that CVI has no idea who made their whiskey, all they know is they paid KBD some money and they got some bottles with whiskey in them.
The CVI memo, for such a short one, is ridiculous on so many levels. They make this seemingly blanket denial regarding Heaven Hill, making no mention of KBD, although anyone who can look up a COLA knows KBD is their bottler, and the relationship between KBD and Heaven Hill is well known, so to act like people are CRAZY with their WILD SPECULATION about BMH and HH is disingenuous or worse.
And yes, dbk, you're right of course. If the whiskey is HH and they know it, but they think they can conceal that by making a legalistic distinction, well, I think that's called a Clinton, and it doesn't fly with me either.
... KBD is really small. They don't need a lot of whiskey. They might pick up a little bit here and a little bit there. They are, among other things, the buyer of last resort for barrels that some people would say are over-oaked. They find customers for that sort of thing. ...
And based on my totally subjective observations, in the Chicago area, they could use a few more customers. More of their product seems to be sitting behind the glass and not being bought than most of their competitors. There was a run on the older make Vintage 17, a while back, probably fueled by a favorable NY Times mention. Some of their lesser products, are the only ones I have ever seen of bourbon actually make it to the extreme bargain close out bin at Binny's. I still passed.
B.B. Babington
11-07-2011, 16:04
My palate must be way off. I picked up a bottle month or so ago and finally cracked it. No age statement. It says "limited edition" with pre-printed proof statement made to look like hand print and lots of other little bits to make it look like a hand bottled product. This screams marketing games to anyone that's been around whiskey for a while. Anywho... this bottle tastes more like a heavier Wild Turkey. I tried it back to back with WT and it has some similarities. At least today. A repeat visit may give different impressions. It doesn't taste like it has any age at all. It says "bourbon" so it's at least four. The age old is it worth it? Basic impression is it is way overpriced. I forget, but maybe paid about $45 but I compare it to $20-$25 material and there's some $10 stuff that could give it competition. But this is just the first visit and I am having a bad day.
But this is just the first visit and I am having a bad day.
I've always thought the BMH LE NAS was not very good and pretty expensive. Bananas is about the only thing it has going for it, which I don't particularly like unless it's in the form of VOBBIB.
tommyboy38
11-08-2011, 18:36
I didn't read through all the posts but if you google black maple hill and heaven hill, you find some odd blog type sites that mention the whiskey comes directly from heaven hill and a few of the pages are nearly identical in their phrasing. Maybe this is what caused the commotion in the first place.
But I do agree that KBD has some overpriced whiskey. I'll just buy mine directly from Heaven Hill!
Bananas is about the only thing it has going for it, which I don't particularly like unless it's in the form of VOBBIB.
The only way I like bananas too :cool: . Now if it only worked that way for me with mint/eucalyptus which I still don't like in my whiskey.
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