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AusinKroe
08-10-2011, 20:05
Ok, my understanding of BIB is 100 proof, 4 yrs old, one distillery/season.

So, I bought this stuff called Schnucks Private Stock. It says Bottled in Bond on the label. (for those of you outside of Missouri, Schnucks is local grocery store out of St. Louis)

I bought the stuff looking for a good mixing bourbon and it only costs about 10 dollars a liter. It is a Heaven Hill product bottled by Luxco.

Now here is my problem, it is listed on the back as being 36 months old. I thought in order to be a BIB it had to be at least 4 years old. Am I wrong?

The stuff isn't bad at all. I would take it over JB any day especially at the price. I like it an I will buy it again as a mixer or for ice but I hate false advertising.

Any thoughts?

fishnbowljoe
08-10-2011, 20:13
I've been stocking up a bit on BIB's lately. I'm gonna have to keep my eyes open for that stuff. Sounds interesting. FWIW, Schnucks owns a small grocery chain here in Rockford Illinois. (Logli's) Joe

proof and age
08-10-2011, 20:19
Ok, my understanding of BIB is 100 proof, 4 yrs old, one distillery/season.

So, I bought this stuff called Schnucks Private Stock. It says Bottled in Bond on the label. (for those of you outside of Missouri, Schnucks is local grocery store out of St. Louis)

I bought the stuff looking for a good mixing bourbon and it only costs about 10 dollars a liter. It is a Heaven Hill product bottled by Luxco.

Now here is my problem, it is listed on the back as being 36 months old. I thought in order to be a BIB it had to be at least 4 years old. Am I wrong?

The stuff isn't bad at all. I would take it over JB any day especially at the price. I like it an I will buy it again as a mixer or for ice but I hate false advertising.

Any thoughts?

Can you post up a picture of the bottle in question?

barturtle
08-10-2011, 20:28
I found the label application from 2005, can you put up a picture of your bottle (f&r)?

Josh
08-11-2011, 09:46
There are no minimum age reqirements for BiBs.

AusinKroe
08-11-2011, 09:52
Here are the pictures I have.

sku
08-11-2011, 10:16
There are no minimum age reqirements for BiBs.

Actually, there is a four year minimum. Maybe this was a mislabeling (wrong label on the back?).

From the TTB regs, 27 CFR 5.42(b)


(3) The words "bond", "bonded", "bottled in bond", "aged in bond", or phrases containing these or synonymous terms, shall not be used on any label or as part of the brand name of domestic distilled spirits unless the distilled spirits are... (iii) Stored for at least four years in wooden containers wherein the spirits have been in contact with the wood surface except for gin and vodka which must be stored for at least four years in wooden containers coated or lined with paraffin or other substance which will preclude contact of the spirits with the wood surface;

Josh
08-11-2011, 11:45
Actually, there is a four year minimum. Maybe this was a mislabeling (wrong label on the back?).

From the TTB regs, 27 CFR 5.42(b)


(3) The words "bond", "bonded", "bottled in bond", "aged in bond", or phrases containing these or synonymous terms, shall not be used on any label or as part of the brand name of domestic distilled spirits unless the distilled spirits are... (iii) Stored for at least four years in wooden containers wherein the spirits have been in contact with the wood surface except for gin and vodka which must be stored for at least four years in wooden containers coated or lined with paraffin or other substance which will preclude contact of the spirits with the wood surface;



I coulda sworn there was a thread I read somewhere that stated that there actually is no age min. for bonds, but every one I open tells me there is and that it is 4 y/o, so I stand corrected.

But we still have a problem if this is a 36 mo. procduct claiming to be bonded.

emr454
08-11-2011, 13:11
I found the notice under the UPC to be interesting:

"...Any person who shall remove the contents of this bottle WITHOUT breaking the seal...will be liable to the penalties prescribed by law."

I'd like to know how someone would do that?

Eric

cowdery
08-11-2011, 14:26
Call the label police! That's clearly wrong.

Was it a dusty? Could it really be DSP-31 juice?

AusinKroe
08-11-2011, 14:30
I seriously doubt it is a dusty. They have tons of it. I have seen them stock the shelves with the stuff. It is pretty good, just a bit young. Although they could have trouble selling the stuff. When did DSP-31 stop production?

I would happily send you a sample Mr. Crowdery so you can give your thoughts on the matter. (if that is acceptable and within the forum rules)

SMOWK
08-11-2011, 15:16
"...Any person who shall remove the contents of this bottle WITHOUT breaking the seal...will be liable to the penalties prescribed by law."

I'd like to know how someone would do that?

A small drill bit, a siphon, and a glass repair kit.

barturtle
08-11-2011, 16:24
I found the label application from 2005, can you put up a picture of your bottle (f&r)?

just a second...if this label was approved with a DSP 31 and 36 month age statement in 2005, but 31 burned in 96 something seems wrong...

Young Blacksmith
08-11-2011, 17:17
Some guy in the UK drained several bottles of Jack Daniels with a small drill bit and a syringe, through the cap, and replaced the contents with apple juice.

He'd then swap bottles with the store and have a new one to drain. Several years and millions were spent to capture the thief.

Josh
08-11-2011, 17:24
Uh oh...David Sherman must be spinning in his grave!



I'm assuming he's dead.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10376&d=1267908640

emr454
08-11-2011, 18:01
A small drill bit, a siphon, and a glass repair kit.


Some guy in the UK drained several bottles of Jack Daniels with a small drill bit and a syringe, through the cap, and replaced the contents with apple juice.

He'd then swap bottles with the store and have a new one to drain. Several years and millions were spent to capture the thief.

Wow, I've never heard of that until now. Seems like an awful lot of work for JD though. I suppose there is a reason they put that on there then!

Eric

T Comp
08-11-2011, 19:11
Is there a Luxco label that ever tells the truth? There are plenty of KY-DSP-16 labels on David Nicholson bottles, which no way could they still be KY-DSP-16.

bourbonv
08-12-2011, 06:10
If Heaven Hill put the whiskey into barrels at DSP 31 then it is DSP 31 whiskey as far as the government is concerned.

Mike Veach

craigthom
08-12-2011, 06:46
If Heaven Hill put the whiskey into barrels at DSP 31 then it is DSP 31 whiskey as far as the government is concerned.

Mike Veach

Well, there's our answer for the DSP-KY 31 part (even though there's no Distilled Spirits Plant there any more). That doesn't explain the three-year-old part.

I'm still bothered by the fact that Jim Beam uses the same DSP number for both Clermont and Boston, but they do, so I need to get over it.

bourbonv
08-12-2011, 07:50
The DSP number has more to do with the registration of Bonded warehouses than the actual distillation. It is confusing, but they are often linked to the distillery, but not always. When I was at United Distillers, they closed Stitzel-Weller in June of 1992, but continued to enter bourbon made at Bernheim into barrels marked "DSP 16". It is when the whiskey goes into the barrel that the bonding period starts as far as the government is concerned.

Mike Veach

silverfish
08-12-2011, 14:04
Some guy in the UK drained several bottles of Jack Daniels with a small drill bit and a syringe, through the cap, and replaced the contents with apple juice.

He'd then swap bottles with the store and have a new one to drain. Several years and millions were spent to capture the thief.

News links here (http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/news/8226014.Jack_Daniels_conman_jailed/) & here (http://www.sutton.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=10051).

SB thread link here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14197).

T Comp
08-12-2011, 21:36
The DSP number has more to do with the registration of Bonded warehouses than the actual distillation. It is confusing, but they are often linked to the distillery, but not always. When I was at United Distillers, they closed Stitzel-Weller in June of 1992, but continued to enter bourbon made at Bernheim into barrels marked "DSP 16". It is when the whiskey goes into the barrel that the bonding period starts as far as the government is concerned.

Mike Veach

I recall Mike has stated this information before but I find it fascinating, revealing and bears repeating. Considering they are allowed to run off labels too I would assume some of the last releases of DSP 16 Old Fitz BIBs were actually distilled at Bernheim. And how about those DSP 16 barrels that make up the Jeffersons 17 , 18, and even the Pappy's?

cowdery
08-13-2011, 11:34
Heaven Hill has said they don't do this. They're using (proudly) DSP-1 for anything distilled at Bernheim and not DSP-31, although Mike may be right that they can use either. At first, they barreled at DSP-1 but now they do that at DSP-31.

The accuracy of the Schnucks label, of course, is Luxco's responsibility, not Heaven Hill's.

craigthom
08-13-2011, 21:59
At first, they barreled at DSP-1 but now they do that at DSP-31.

So they trucked empty barrels to Louisville and filled ones back to Bardstown? That seems really inefficient, both because filled barrels weight more and take up more space on the trip south and because Bardstown is a lot closer to Lebanon (which is probably why they don't do it any more).

Did they also leave some bourbon barrels in those brick warehouses with all the brandy?

ethangsmith
08-14-2011, 14:13
For what it's worth, Laird's BIB Apple Brandy only lists the DSP it is bottled at but makes no mention anywhere on the bottle of the plant it was distilled it. I always thought both had to be listed if they are different. And since as far as I know there is no distillation going on in Scobeyville, NJ, I think they are missing that information on their labels.

cowdery
08-16-2011, 11:39
So they trucked empty barrels to Louisville and filled ones back to Bardstown? That seems really inefficient, both because filled barrels weight more and take up more space on the trip south and because Bardstown is a lot closer to Lebanon (which is probably why they don't do it any more).

Did they also leave some bourbon barrels in those brick warehouses with all the brandy?

They had a cistern room (i.e., barrel filling) at Bernheim and didn't have one in Bardstown because it was destroyed by the fire. They didn't truck barrels to Louisville, they just had Independent Stave deliver them to Louisville, then trucked the full barrels back to Bardstown. Yes, it was inefficient, which is why they eventually built a cistern room at Bardstown, but these things take money and you can't do everything overnight. They bought the distillery, upgraded it to their liking, then built the cistern room in Bardstown.

The only bourbon they age in the masonry warehouses in Louisville is the stuff intended for Australia that will be mixed with cola or ginger ale and sold as a ready-to-drink. With all of the distilleries, the bourbon they use for RTDs is barely two years old, i.e., barely 'straight bourbon.'

barturtle
08-20-2011, 21:12
Actually, there is a four year minimum. Maybe this was a mislabeling (wrong label on the back?).

From the TTB regs, 27 CFR 5.42(b)


(3) The words "bond", "bonded", "bottled in bond", "aged in bond", or phrases containing these or synonymous terms, shall not be used on any label or as part of the brand name of domestic distilled spirits unless the distilled spirits are... (iii) Stored for at least four years in wooden containers wherein the spirits have been in contact with the wood surface except for gin and vodka which must be stored for at least four years in wooden containers coated or lined with paraffin or other substance which will preclude contact of the spirits with the wood surface;



How about this one...also approved:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cdUIuEnQ3tM/TlCFBitvObI/AAAAAAAAAaU/zREzuQlNHT8/s800/old%252520homicide.jpeg

craigthom
08-21-2011, 04:09
How about this one...also approved:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cdUIuEnQ3tM/TlCFBitvObI/AAAAAAAAAaU/zREzuQlNHT8/s800/old%252520homicide.jpeg

Maybe they've hired a bunch of new people at TTB, and they think "100 Proof" means "at least 100 Proof".

Unless they found a corner of a warehouse where the angels were teetotalers, I find it hard to believe that this went into the barrels at 125 proof.

tmckenzie
08-21-2011, 10:58
Why don't you know? The angels in the corner of that warehouse only drank water.