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jburlowski
08-31-2011, 04:49
And it sounds like a sizable investment:
Http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110830/NEWS0103/108310338

BradleyC
08-31-2011, 08:00
Great article. Thanks for posting. I look forward to following their progress.

clingman71
08-31-2011, 08:33
If this were FB, I would have "like"d this post.

jcg9779
08-31-2011, 08:53
Very interesting. How long does it usually take for a start up distillery to actually bottle a decent product? Would they start bottling after aging for two years just to get the product on the shelves while they age other inventory?

TomH
08-31-2011, 09:31
I just went to FB and did just that


If this were FB, I would have "like"d this post.

DeanSheen
08-31-2011, 10:31
"We're not sparing any expense in order to do this at the very top level of quality," Lewis said.

Looks like a nice project.

PS is cutting out the middleman. This will be a nice tidy profit center for them once it gets rolling.

Josh
08-31-2011, 12:21
Didn't they invest in a microbrewery a while back? What happened there?

cowdery
08-31-2011, 12:34
Smart.

So many of these micro-distilleries are woefully under-capitalized, especially for producing whiskey. The implication is that they have enough money to do it right.

This looks like a scale similar to Steve Nally's distillery in Wyoming, which makes about 20 barrels (53 gallon) a week. Roughly speaking, that gives you about 20,000 cases a year to sell, not a bad little brand.

It could take anywhere from 6 to 18 months to get everything built, installed, and broken-in, and because of the ambitious building I'm guessing it will be closer to 18. Ideally, they should shoot for a five-year-old product as a starting point (we've had enough 'white whiskey,' thank you very much), so assuming they are close to starting the clock, that means late 2017 to early 2018 before there is anything to drink.

cbus
08-31-2011, 13:24
Awesome! Can't wait!

Gillman
08-31-2011, 13:37
Smart. (et ainsi de suite).

Gary

mark fleetwood
08-31-2011, 14:20
We live near and frequent PS often. Great place. This sounds great for PS, but wouldn't Beam, HH, Saz and all the other producers be upset that a retailer is producing something that only they had been producing? I guess just about every retailer does it now with their own generic brand -- especially groceries -- but distillers go through so many hoops and regulations that you'd think the absolute last thing they want to see is the place that sells their product start selling its own product.

cowdery
08-31-2011, 14:25
If you sell 10 million cases a year, as Jack Daniel's does, how worried can you be about someone who sells 20 thousand?

Remember that Sazerac, a big producer, is owned (through that same 'family member' runaround) by the same person who owns Republic, a huge distributor in Louisiana and Texas. Everybody has their fingers in everything.

I've often said that some store should up its game to become the retailer for whiskey tourists. I thought it would be someone closer to the distilling centers, but Party Source is convenient for anyone traveling into the state from the north via I-75 or I-71, making it a good place to begin or end a Kentucky visit. And it's not that far from Frankfort, the nearest distilling center.

They're in a good position to pull this off because they have a lot to sell even before they have actual product from the distillery. I assume a bar/restaurant will be next.

Let's hope Lewis has a big family.

mark fleetwood
08-31-2011, 14:46
In that case, have at it boys.
Plus, big $ investment like this to build a distillery might help the Newport/Bellevue area restore its former glory as sin city. Just need a casino or two and a few gentlemen clubs (... oh yeah, they have that already).http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

wadewood
08-31-2011, 15:12
It could take anywhere from 6 to 18 months to get everything built, installed, and broken-in, and because of the ambitious building I'm guessing it will be closer to 18.

Or if your KBD, then it could be 18 years.....

OscarV
08-31-2011, 15:35
I hate to be the killjoy here but who cares?
I have had some of the Party Source's seleted bottles and they were at best lame.
And it just ain't me. A lot of my fellow SB.com members have dissed their selections also.
So, the question is, are they going to make good or bad whiskey?
Only time will tell.
In the meantime skip Party Source and go see Brian at Cork 'N Bottle, he does a great job picking barrels for his store's private bottles.

Bourbon Boiler
08-31-2011, 18:22
Are they really cutting out a middle man? Don't they have to sell to and buy from a distributor?

jburlowski
08-31-2011, 19:47
I hate to be the killjoy here but who cares?
I have had some of the Party Source's seleted bottles and they were at best lame.
And it just ain't me. A lot of my fellow SB.com members have dissed their selections also.
So, the question is, are they going to make good or bad whiskey?
Only time will tell.
In the meantime skip Party Source and go see Brian at Cork 'N Bottle, he does a great job picking barrels for his store's private bottles.

We're usually on the same wavelength but I've got to disagree (at least a little) with you here, Oscar. I think you are being a bit harsh.

I've like some of Brian's (CnB) choices (e.g., OWA #49) better than others (which can be mundane). Same is true of Jay at TPS (e.g.; his EC18 choice is outstanding and I recall you liked his Bowman rye and at least one of his Willett picks).

But to broadly label either one as "lame" or "bad" is simplistic and, to some degree, inaccurate and unfair. FWIW, I'd hazard a guess that I've tried more of each store's selections then you have. Doesn't make me "right" or you "wrong" but perhaps gives a different perspective.

Whether it's new expressions or barrel-picks, the challenge for each of us is to pick what we like.... regardless of the source.

cowdery
08-31-2011, 20:33
If Jay is the person selecting barrels from the PS distillery for sale in the PS store in 2017-2018, you probably won't like them, Oscar.

As for 'cutting out the middle man,' they can't unless Mr. Lewis wants to make some other family member a distributor. They will (unless the law changes by then) have to do paper transactions from the producer to the distributor and then from the distributor to the retail entity, but the bottles won't have to physically go to the distributor.

In some states the law allows small producers to sell directly, but obviously distributors don't like that. I don't believe Kentucky allows that at this time.

tmckenzie
09-01-2011, 05:38
It does look like the outfit Steve Nally has. It will be interesting to see how the whiskey turns out. Aging will be the biggest difference between the ps distillery and Steve's place.

OscarV
09-01-2011, 13:48
We're usually on the same wavelength but I've got to disagree (at least a little) with you here, Oscar. I think you are being a bit harsh.



Just speaking from personal experience and reviews by others whom opinions I agree with.
Now then, am I right or wrong?
I don't know, again just opinions from my past experiences.

cowdery
09-01-2011, 16:23
It does look like the outfit Steve Nally has. It will be interesting to see how the whiskey turns out. Aging will be the biggest difference between the ps distillery and Steve's place.

Water too. That's been an issue for Steve, coming up with enough water.

BourbonRob
09-01-2011, 17:59
Good business sense....they're ready for bourbon to hit the main stream once again...stock up now...

Rob

tmckenzie
09-02-2011, 03:59
Water too. That's been an issue for Steve, coming up with enough water.
When I was out there he was still trucking it in, but was planning on a line being put in. If I was him, I would put heat in the warehouses. The whiskey will set dormant for most of the year. He has his way of doing things though and I think it will be good whiskey, just different.

bourbonv
09-02-2011, 07:17
If Wyoming Whiskey is looking for a longer aging period for their whiskey, they should leave the warehouses without heat. Think of them being all lower level for aging.

Mike Veach

Tom Troland
09-04-2011, 16:20
It is interesting that The Party Source appears to be planning a big column still rather than the smaller pot stills usually favored by micro distillers. One reason might be they they have the capital to install such a big rig. But they must feel that column distillation (with, presumably, a doubler) is superior to pot distillation, at least for American whiskeys. Of course, Woodford Reserve produces pot still bourbon. But when I compare their pure pot still whiskey (Master's Collection) with Brown-Forman column still whiskey (Old Forester), I am not convinced that the pot still product is superior. Might it be that column stills are actually better for distilling American whiskey? If so, I wonder why? Perhaps corn and rye just do not react as well to a pot still as barley malt.

cowdery
09-04-2011, 16:49
They're not alone and this might well be the next wave.

First, the idea that pot stills are inherently superior is a myth, though widely believed.

Second, with the exception of Woodford, no one has made bourbon or rye exclusively in pot stills since before Prohibition. It's not the 'normal' way to make American whiskey.

Third, most mirco-distillers don't use true pot stills, i.e., alembics (like Woodford does), they use hybrids that have rectification columns. I think they perform more like column stills but because they're charge and not continuous, they technically are pot stills.

Fourth, each type is better for different things. If you want to make relatively small batches of lots of different things, the typical hybrid set up that most micros use is probably best. It's very versatile. If you want to produce relatively larger batches of a small number of products -- say a couple of different whiskeys -- and you care about efficiency, a small column still set up is probably best. Column stills are much more efficient than pot stills.

All column stills are the same height. The crucial capacity metric is still diameter. The typical column still at one of the major bourbon distilleries will have a diameter of between 48 and 72 inches. I suspect the one PS is installing will be much smaller, maybe 24 inches.

I also assume they will have a pot still doubler. It isn't essential, technically, but according to most bourbon-makers, you really can't get the whiskey to taste right without it. Barton is the only major Kentucky distillery that doesn't double everything. I'm not sure when they use it and when they don't. All they say is that they use it when they "need" to.

As for your speculation, Tom, there are some issues with especially corn in a pot still, but they can be addressed. Most pot/hybrid stills can have an agitator installed for corn and some other things that otherwise tend to cake and stick. Woodford solves the same problem with a recirculation pump.

Referring again to the Wyoming operation, and a similar one being finished up now in far Western Kentucky, these set-ups are designed to produce about 200 gallons of spirit per day, a lot more than a typical micro produces.

Tom Troland
09-04-2011, 17:02
Thanks for a very informative reply, Chuck! Now I wonder why all column stills are the same height. Is there some principle of physics (e.g. involving vapor pressures) that makes a certain height optimum?

cowdery
09-04-2011, 17:07
Yes. There has to be about 11 inches of separation between plates to avoid entrainment.

Entrainment is bad.

Josh
09-04-2011, 21:53
That's Entrainment!

Tom Troland
09-05-2011, 11:45
Speaking of distillation, here is question I have sometimes pondered. Perhaps Cluck or another board member can help. How does a pot still doubler work? The juice is flowing continuously out of the column still. So the pot still doubler must be able to handle this continuous, high volume flow. Yet traditional pot stills work one batch at a time. What's up?

tmckenzie
09-06-2011, 03:16
Every pot still doubler I have ever seen is what they call a continuos doubler. I still have not figured it out.

I think our pot still is the only one of the micro stills that can be used as a true pot still. Meaning we can bypass the column all together. Most have to go through the column. Even with the plates all open and the precondensor shut off it will still run 100 proof or better. Meaning your doubling run will be 160 or better, which is the main reason most craft whiskies taste like wood and nothing else. It ain't the small barrels, it is what is going in them. We intend to install a column still like tps is planning. A few years from now. I do not think pot still are better than column. The pricing is not much different than what people are paying for the pot setups.

Gillman
09-06-2011, 06:05
Tom, the doubler can handle the flow at its relative size to the column because the volume of the distillate is much reduced by the column distillation stage from the initial stream to the column. The doubler permits a further purification but not too advanced, in order that is to get the distillate under 160 proof and in the range most distillers want for bourbon white dog. If you added another distillation column as some vodka makers do or made the column too tall, the spirit would be too neutral in character for bourbon.

The piping between the column and pot still doubler permits this to occur in one operation rather than full condensation with re-charge from the "air" to a second still as in Scotland. It's just more efficient that way and you lose less spirit in the process. The doubling stage boosts the alcohol from about 60% ABV to 80% and this also rids it from some ill-tasting chemical compounds that stay behind with the spent (set back) portion.

Gary

Tom Troland
09-06-2011, 07:52
Many thanks to the authors of the previous two posts for the information! However, I am still unclear about just how the spirit passes through the doubler. Since the alcohol content out of the doubler is higher than that going in, it also must be true that the volume of liquid coming out of the doubler is less than that going in. So what happens to the liquid volume lost in the doubling process? In an ordinary pot still, this excess liquid remains in the bottom of the still. So it can be emptied out once the still is shut down at the end of a batch. But in a continuously operating doubler, there is no shutdown. I imagine, therefore, that there must be a drain pipe that continuously removes the excess liquid from the doubler. Further clarifications are most welcome!

doubleblank
09-06-2011, 08:26
The damn chemical engineer residing deep inside me has to chime in on entrainment. Entrainment occurs in a distillation column when liquid is carried by the vapor from one tray up to the next one. While the distance from one tray to the next impacts much of the dynamics of distillation, the primary cause of entrainment is high vapor rates in the column. High vapor rates occur from 1) running too much feed into the column and/or 2) the column's diameter is too small for the applicable distillation. IOW, assume you're generating an average of 100 cfm of vapor in a column. As you increase the diameter of the column, the speed at which 100 cfm has to move goes down. If the speed at which the vapor is traveling slows too much, you get the opposite of entrainment.....you get weeping/dumping and the liquid in the column goes crashing to the bottom of the column.

Some distillations require the column to be built in sections having different diameters because the vapor rate changes so much from the bottom to the top of the column.

As Chuck said, entrainment is bad as it results in the "impurities" you're trying to remove via distillation gets carried upward in the column and into the final product.

Randy

cowdery
09-06-2011, 09:10
The doubler is mis-named because it doesn't double anything. It raises the ABV of the spirit only slightly.

There are two kinds, a traditional doubler, in which the vapors coming off the column are fully condensed before being introduced to the doubler; and a thumper, in which the vapors go directly into the doubler and use their energy in the process.

So they can operate continuously I'm sure there is some kind of drain to remove excess liquid. The only thing from the doubler that is being kept is what comes off as vapor so that liquid -- which is essentially water -- is discarded.

Distillers describe what doubling does as polishing the spirit. It removes a couple of undesirable congeners that the column does not.

But just as Randy has a chemical engineer inside him, I most definitely do not, so my ability to explain this stuff technically is limited.

Tom Troland
09-06-2011, 10:44
Chuck (and others) - Many thanks for further clarifications. I guess the term "pot still doubler" is a total misnomer since, as Chuck says, nothing gets doubled. Plus, the pot still doubler is not really a pot still in the traditional sense of the term (even if it looks like a pot still from the outside). Nonetheless, the term has its uses. It can be used to justify the claim that certain bourbons are "pot still", like A. H. Hirsch (nee Michter's) and Willett Pot Still Reserve. In my line of work (astronomy) we have a similar misnomer - shooting star. It's not a star, and nobody shot it. So we call it a meteor, instead. So we need a new term for pot still doubler. How about "pot polisher"?

Josh
09-06-2011, 10:52
It can be used to justify the claim that certain bourbons are "pot still", like A. H. Hirsch (nee Michter's) and Willett Pot Still Reserve.

The makers of Willet Pot Still have indicated that they in no way mean to imply that that product was made in a pot still. It just happens to be the shape of the bottle. It's a sort of homage to the pot still.

p_elliott
09-06-2011, 11:01
The makers of Willet Pot Still have indicated that they in no way mean to imply that that product was made in a pot still. It just happens to be the shape of the bottle. It's a sort of homage to the pot still.

Maybe it means they will get off the pot and make their own whiskey one day.

T Comp
09-06-2011, 11:13
But just as Randy has a chemical engineer inside him, I most definitely do not, so my ability to explain this stuff technically is limited.

And my ability to even understand all this stuff is limited but I...still... keep trying :grin:

Tom Troland
09-06-2011, 12:39
Josh - Your comment about the bottlers of Willett Pot Still Reserve is effectively untrue. Nowhere on the bottle and nowhere on the KBD website is there any indication that the bourbon is not a pot still product. So, no, KBD has not been forthcoming about this matter. While a number of their bottlings are very good, they have always coyly implied in their labeling and promotion that they are an actual distillery. The name KBD says it all. Perhaps the KBD folks have occasionally intimated to gurus like you that Pot Still Reserve is no such thing. But how is a novice like me, or the average Joe the Plumber in the liquor store to know?

Josh
09-06-2011, 12:44
Josh - Your comment about the bottlers of Willett Pot Still Reserve is effectively untrue. Nowhere on the bottle and nowhere on the KBD website is there any indication that the bourbon is not a pot still product. So, no, KBD has not been forthcoming about this matter. While a number of their bottlings are very good, they have always coyly implied in their labeling and promotion that they are an actual distillery. The name KBD says it all. Perhaps the KBD folks have occasionally intimated to gurus like you that Pot Still Reserve is no such thing. But how is a novice like me, or the average Joe the Plumber in the liquor store to know?

Excellent question.

smokinjoe
09-06-2011, 12:47
The makers of Willet Pot Still have indicated that they in no way mean to imply that that product was made in a pot still. It just happens to be the shape of the bottle. It's a sort of homage to the pot still.

I thought that bottle was a bong...

Gillman
09-06-2011, 14:43
Good discussions. In the usual doubler set-up, surely there is excess liquid drained out, this would be water and some of the low and high boiling congeners that stay back with the H2O to help polish the spirit as Chuck said. Either the tank is emptied after a few days or it is drained out continuously. I get Tom's point that how can it be drained if you would lose the alcohol in the stream feeding continuously in the tank? But I would think they must drain it at intervals before boosting the temperature to reboil the low wines. Once the boil is down when the residue is mostly water not alcohol, that is when it must be flushed. Again I don't know for certain but would project this based on what I do know. If I am wrong by all means I appreciate corrections.

Also, continuous stills don't truly operate forever, they are stopped every week or so I understand for cleaning and maintenance. A doubler is definitely a spirit still, in function it does exactly what a Scots spirit still does.

Thad: this is not complex really - not the math or the other background technics Randy knows, but the general concepts: to be discussed soon I hope in person.

Gary

Tom Troland
09-06-2011, 15:23
Gary - Thanks for further insights. Looks like this is a question for Jim Rutledge or Harlen Wheatley or Jimmy Russell or one of their colleagues. I did a Google search on "pot still doubler". I found an old straightbourbon.com thread on the topic from July 2000. Chuck described a pot still doubler as "simply a tank with a lot of pipes running into and out of it". I think we can all agree on that! Chuck also said, "Although it is, in fact, a pot still it does not have the classic appearance of one." My vague impression of seeing the doubler at Four Roses is just the opposite. It did look to me like a classic pot still. But, if we understand things well, the doubler does not actually function much like a pot still. Obviously, we don't understand things well! Or at least I don't. I like being in this situation because it means I will eventually learn something interesting.

Gillman
09-06-2011, 17:41
Tom, you are right that some doubling is merely a re-charge of a traditional alembic still. E.g., this is what happens in Virginia when white dog from Buffalo Trace is polished to make the final dog that will be barreled (at the Virginia Gentleman plant). So you can use a "real" pot still although I believe the one at Four Roses is connected by piping to the column still.

Gary

cowdery
09-06-2011, 19:05
Speaking of Michter's, I learned today, indirectly from Dick Stoll, that the doubler at Michter's was used more like a true spirit still in that doubling was a completely separate operation, done with fully condensed low wines (which out of a column still aren't that low) on a different day even, taking heads and tails cuts, which you can't do with a continuous doubler. In that sense it was a 'pot still' operation different from what most other distilleries were doing.

Every major producer distiller I've ever talked to about doubling has described the doubler as a pot still. Appearance is certainly not the point. I can imagine a continuous batch process, though that sounds contradictory. It's all a matter of timing, but I'm not sure if what I'm imagining is what they do.

Cooking and fermentation are batch processes, for example, but they are timed to feed the beer well continuously.

Because the term 'pot still' has been so generally debased, I tend to use the term 'alembic' to describe what most people, especially lay people, mean when they say 'pot still.' Probably 99% of the people who claim they use 'pot stills' cannot call what they use an alembic.

Gillman
09-06-2011, 21:03
Just one other point is that I recall reading or hearing of a low wines tank. This would entail condensing the low wines and holding them for a time (even as the tank if large enough is being topped up from the beer still), after which the low wines are sent to the doubler. You could control in other words the flow of low wines to the doubler and thus permit the spent beer in the latter to be piped out before a new charge is received. I confess when you read about removal of slops to separate the solids they don't talk about a doubler or thumper but I think there has to be a stream from it. How else could the proof go up?

Gary

tmckenzie
09-07-2011, 03:48
I think it is like a lot of things in the whiskey business. Each person has his onw name for something. The only way I can make a continuos doubler make since is it is the same as a thumper. As far as a heads and tails tank, I learned this from my visit out to Steve Nallys place, that you make you heads cut when the column and doubler are all up to operating temperature. Anything before the cut is sent to the heads and tails tank, and when they start shutting the column and doubler down for the day, what comes off goes to it as well. At least I think I am right. When we get one, I will figure it out. One interesting note I might add about Wyoming Whiskey, is the elevation they are at. It took Steve a while to get his setup to run right he said because of the boiling point of water where they are at.

White Dog
09-07-2011, 22:15
Let's be clear. KBD is none of our f--kin' business.:cool:

cowdery
09-12-2011, 14:04
It looks like Alltech is planning a facility in Lexington similar to the PS one. This (http://www.kentucky.com/2011/09/10/1875973/alltech-breaks-ground-for-bourbon.html) is from Friday's Lexington Herald-Leader. Supposedly, they've been making bourbon in their current facility for the last four years, which is aging somewhere in Bardstown. Hummmmmm.

Josh
09-12-2011, 17:22
It looks like Alltech is planning a facility in Lexington similar to the PS one. This (http://www.kentucky.com/2011/09/10/1875973/alltech-breaks-ground-for-bourbon.html) is from Friday's Lexington Herald-Leader. Supposedly, they've been making bourbon in their current facility for the last four years, which is aging somewhere in Bardstown. Hummmmmm.

Probably the same secret location where the General Nelson keeps its waiting list.

smokinjoe
09-12-2011, 18:10
Probably the same secret location where the General Nelson keeps its waiting list.

Nice!! :D That's great news. Now, at least we have someone who can help the GN remember where they put the list in the first place.

DeanSheen
09-13-2011, 07:22
I'm sure I'll get a call Thursday night that a spot opened up at the GN.

"Well thanks but.......I'm......already.........here!"

jburlowski
12-28-2011, 07:36
An update (http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/C2/20111228/NEWS/312280013/)from this morning's paper.

Bourbon Boiler
12-28-2011, 16:29
Functional by Spring 2013 seems pretty ambitious. I hope it works out.

Josh
12-29-2011, 08:05
They'll probably let it sit there half finished for a while to lure the rebels into attacking it.

"That blast came from The Party Source! That thing's operational!"

mosugoji64
01-02-2012, 10:22
They'll probably let it sit there half finished for a while to lure the rebels into attacking it.

"That blast came from The Party Source! That thing's operational!"


"It's a trap!"

:slappin::lol::slappin::lol::slappin::lol:

Josh
01-02-2012, 11:11
"It's a trap!"

:slappin::lol::slappin::lol::slappin::lol:
:slappin:

Many Bothans died to bring us this whiskey.

tmckenzie
01-02-2012, 16:23
The distillery could come together by 2013. especially if the still is being built now, and the permits are going forward. I wish them luck.

Jay Erisman
01-28-2012, 10:36
They'll probably let it sit there half finished for a while to lure the rebels into attacking it.

"That blast came from The Party Source! That thing's operational!"



"It's a trap!"

:slappin::lol::slappin::lol::slappin::lol:


:slappin:

Many Bothans died to bring us this whiskey.

"We're going in. We're going in full throttle (http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Star_Wars_Episode_IV_A_New_Hope&quote=beggarscanyon.txt&file=beggarscanyon.wav). That oughta keep those fighters off our back."

clingman71
01-28-2012, 11:00
Get clear, Wedge. You can't do any more good back there!

CaptainQ
01-30-2012, 10:15
"We're going in. We're going in full throttle (http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Star_Wars_Episode_IV_A_New_Hope&quote=beggarscanyon.txt&file=beggarscanyon.wav). That oughta keep those fighters off our back."


Welcome aboard Jay. Great to have you here. :toast:

Beer&Bourbon
01-31-2012, 11:15
I'm pretty excited about the whole expansion. The distillery is exciting, but it'll be awhile before we see something from that so I'm especially excited about the tasting bar that I've heard is going in. From what I've heard it'll be a whisk(e)y tasting bar; was that confirmed anywhere?

Good luck, Jay! (...not that you need any help getting my money)

jburlowski
07-20-2012, 15:46
Latest info here (http://nky.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20120720/NEWS0103/307200029/). It's going to be called "Nth". They got an experienced distiller signed up.

cowdery
07-20-2012, 16:26
After reading the article and some of the material TPS has put out, I conclude that they do not subscribe to the "under-promise and over-deliver" school of business strategy.

White Dog
07-20-2012, 18:44
Chuck, I wish I could have read the message you deleted. I think this article speaks for itself, if you know what I mean.

Bourbon Boiler
07-20-2012, 20:20
I think they're selling the "Bourbon Campus" idea pretty well, and I would anticipate that being a fun visit. I'm definitely optimistic about that part. The actual product from the distillery could be completely different, but time will tell and I won't bother to speculate.

Restaurant man
07-21-2012, 10:29
Nice to know they are putting a 500% effort into making quality bourbon. I had some whiskey last night and it was apparent that only a 200% effort was put forth. Lazy bastards

cowdery
07-22-2012, 12:48
The Party Source does many good things so it seems appropriate to give them the benefit of the doubt. What was in the message I deleted? A meditation about when enthusiasm becomes hyperbole and hyperbole become hubris, more or less. But, yeah, lame ass copywriting, to be sure.

And I want to know why can't they give 1000%?

Let's wait and see what they actually do. That's what matters. A little excess chin music won't hurt anybody.

soad
07-22-2012, 14:23
Latest info here (http://nky.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20120720/NEWS0103/307200029/). It's going to be called "Nth". They got an experienced distiller signed up.


Even if it ends up being the best bourbon on the planet, I will never like the name "Nth", talk about lame ass.....

Josh
07-22-2012, 15:20
No dopier a name than "Buffalo Trace", imo.

MyOldKyDram
07-22-2012, 15:28
Dopier to the Nth degree than BT.

Ill reserve judgement on the distillery and product, however.

Bourbon Boiler
07-22-2012, 16:26
I don't judge whiskey by it's name, but if I did Nth would only be slightly ahead of R1^, or however you type it.

jburlowski
07-23-2012, 15:43
I don't judge whiskey by it's name, but if I did Nth would only be slightly ahead of R1^, or however you type it.

Nth is the name of the distillery... not the whiskey. They haven't revealed the brand name(s) yet.

cowdery
07-24-2012, 12:42
It's certainly consistent with the whole '500%' thing. Why set yourself up like that? That's why 'underpromise and overdeliver' is a better approach, but I'll admit that, these days, that opinion seems to be in the minority.

Some people think it's good advertising to simply make the most grandiose claims you can imagine. It's not. It's not like they're lying or anything. They're just being stupid. An attitude of 'saying it makes it so' doesn't bode well, but it's possible they can be idiots in terms of communication and still make a good product. Overstatement does seem to be the modern approach to advertising. I don't approve, but it's very widespread.

Modesty and humility are out of fashion.

OscarV
07-25-2012, 08:44
No dopier a name than "Buffalo Trace", imo.


I never liked the name Buffalo Trace.
Of course I am entirely wrong but that name conjures up images of the "Old West".
The Nth Degree is a little to cute for me also.

CoMobourbon
07-25-2012, 14:21
It's certainly consistent with the whole '500%' thing. Why set yourself up like that? That's why 'underpromise and overdeliver' is a better approach, but I'll admit that, these days, that opinion seems to be in the minority.

Some people think it's good advertising to simply make the most grandiose claims you can imagine. It's not. It's not like they're lying or anything. They're just being stupid. An attitude of 'saying it makes it so' doesn't bode well, but it's possible they can be idiots in terms of communication and still make a good product. Overstatement does seem to be the modern approach to advertising. I don't approve, but it's very widespread.

Modesty and humility are out of fashion.

While I too prefer the 'under promise and over deliver' approach, I am not so sure that the use of "grandiose claims" in advertising is a function of "fashion", "the modern approach", or anything else going on "these days." It makes me shake my head on general principle, but I see nothing here to be disappointed (or romantic) about.

I am interested, without irony, in any explanation or representative example for this change over time in the practice of overstatement and exaggeration in advertising. As far as I can see, this is pretty much endemic to marketing everywhere and in any time. Any counter-examples to this notion I can think of are not representative but rather exceptions to the rule.

[Maybe what looks like a misconception can be likened to the misconception that music was better in previous decades. A few moments consideration will reveal that we mostly continue to play and therefore remember the better music from the past (these are the 'classics'); we forget most of the crap that came out alongside it. Of course, the good music from one era is very likely to be better than the average music of another.]

In any case, however, I would doubt 'under promise and over deliver' is statistically a better business strategy than that of making grandiose claims. If you run an average business with average products, I would think that not making grandiose claims would actually put you at a disadvantage. In order to reap the benefits of 'under promise and over deliver', you have to actually be excellent (not to mention lucky). I mean, if you promise less than average and then deliver average, do you really expect to out-compete the other guys who also make average? From a purely pragmatic perspective, I can't blame a business, which is looking at years before the first product release, for not banking too much on their future excellence.

So (so as to avoid censure for straying off topic), I will say that the advertising for Nth distillery looks pretty much par-for-the-course in any age, stylistic elements notwithstanding. In the owner's shoes, I would maybe do the same thing. Definitely if all I cared about was financial security. Only if I somehow knew for sure that my future bourbon was going to rock would I use 'under promise and over deliver'.

Flyfish
07-25-2012, 15:18
It's certainly consistent with the whole '500%' thing. Why set yourself up like that? That's why 'underpromise and overdeliver' is a better approach, but I'll admit that, these days, that opinion seems to be in the minority.

Some people think it's good advertising to simply make the most grandiose claims you can imagine. It's not. It's not like they're lying or anything. They're just being stupid. An attitude of 'saying it makes it so' doesn't bode well, but it's possible they can be idiots in terms of communication and still make a good product. Overstatement does seem to be the modern approach to advertising. I don't approve, but it's very widespread.

Modesty and humility are out of fashion.

I made my living in advertising and public relations for 30 years. There are a lot of laymen who think that Mad Men are some sort of evil geniuses who can make you buy anything. Some of my clients thought that, too. They wanted me to wave some magic wand and increase their sales exponentially. I tried to convince them, sometimes successfully, that really good advertising can convince a reasonable prospect to try a product or service once. If what you are selling is crap, the more people who buy it, the quicker the word spreads and your sales go in the toilet. I always tried to focus on the features, advantages, and benefits of whatever I was selling and talked clients out of making grandiose claims. Maybe that's why I never made a bazillion dollars on midnight infomercials.

AAA ain't no Stagg but it is damn good bourbon for the price.

CaptainQ
07-25-2012, 22:52
AAA ain't no Stagg but it is damn good bourbon for the price.

Amen Brother, amen.

Josh
07-26-2012, 08:13
I never liked the name Buffalo Trace.
Of course I am entirely wrong but that name conjures up images of the "Old West".
The Nth Degree is a little to cute for me also.

Glad I'm not the only one! So there was a bison trail near the distillery, big deal. Most old distilleries are in similar locations. I would be surprised if one of them WASN'T near a bison trail. They should change it back to the Geo. T. Stagg distillery. Classier.

tmckenzie
07-26-2012, 16:18
Glad I'm not the only one! So there was a bison trail near the distillery, big deal. Most old distilleries are in similar locations. I would be surprised if one of them WASN'T near a bison trail. They should change it back to the Geo. T. Stagg distillery. Classier.

I am sitting here having a nip of early 90's AAA and I think they should change the name back to Ancient Age.

cowdery
07-27-2012, 14:18
Like Flyfish, my opinion is based on 40 years as a copywriter and creative director in the advertising industry. Flyfish's experience and observation is the same as mine. And one of the reasons advertising has coarsened and become significantly more dishonest is because many clients believe as CoMoBourbon does, that advertising has always been that way. It hasn't. Now, I also recognize that my opinion is that of a 60-year-old man looking backwards, but experience is worth something. Back when I was young and idealistic, I was talking to an old burn-out like I am now. He was even standing in a stairwell, in a dirty trench coat, sucking off the last of an unfiltered Winston. "You know what a good ad is, kid?" he said, barely looking in my direction. "A good ad is a sold ad."

When advertisers became prone to switching agencies at the drop of a hat, and agencies began to give their work away in pitches, the decline became inevitable. Advertising professionals have always struggled to be viewed as professionals instead of whores, but today they are pretty much all whores.

(For the metaphorically challenged, a professional does whatever is best for the client, a whore does whatever the client wants.)

Phil T
07-27-2012, 16:14
I have a few thoughts/questions (Chuck?) about their new venture ..

-what is the general consensus of their Master Distiller?

-given his background, is it likely they will do rye also?

-what is the likelihood that they will also source bourbon /rye?

cowdery
07-27-2012, 17:56
Larry Ebersold is very highly respected. No less an authority than Jim Rutledge of Four Roses considers Ebersold to be the best living master distiller. The question is whether or not Larry is really coming out of retirement to run this place day to day. I understood he is consulting for them. Although retired, he seems pretty young (I don't know his actual age) so maybe he is. I don't know. It's a couple years away so, like everything else with Nth, we have to wait and see.

T Comp
07-27-2012, 19:08
When advertisers became prone to switching agencies at the drop of a hat, and agencies began to give their work away in pitches, the decline became inevitable. Advertising professionals have always struggled to be viewed as professionals instead of whores, but today they are pretty much all whores.

(For the metaphorically challenged, a professional does whatever is best for the client, a whore does whatever the client wants.)

Yikes...so true...and pervasive now among too many professionals that were always considered professionals...lawyers, accountants, journalists and yes even doctors among others.

CoMobourbon
08-03-2012, 16:14
Like Flyfish, my opinion is based on 40 years as a copywriter and creative director in the advertising industry. Flyfish's experience and observation is the same as mine. And one of the reasons advertising has coarsened and become significantly more dishonest is because many clients believe as CoMoBourbon does, that advertising has always been that way. It hasn't. Now, I also recognize that my opinion is that of a 60-year-old man looking backwards, but experience is worth something. Back when I was young and idealistic, I was talking to an old burn-out like I am now. He was even standing in a stairwell, in a dirty trench coat, sucking off the last of an unfiltered Winston. "You know what a good ad is, kid?" he said, barely looking in my direction. "A good ad is a sold ad."

When advertisers became prone to switching agencies at the drop of a hat, and agencies began to give their work away in pitches, the decline became inevitable. Advertising professionals have always struggled to be viewed as professionals instead of whores, but today they are pretty much all whores.

(For the metaphorically challenged, a professional does whatever is best for the client, a whore does whatever the client wants.)

Fair enough. 40 years is almost twice as long as I have been alive, and there is no argument more compelling or well grounded than that which derives from experience. As a 23 year old masters student entering his first full time job, I have nothing so concrete as specific experience to draw from, and I really appreciate answers based on 30-40 years of it.

I guess most of my (admittedly speculative} argument comes from what I consider some pretty sound general observations. For example, people have always griped and fretted about societal decay since the beginning of human society, but amid all of these warnings about regression, society has always progressed by leaps and bounds, negative side effects notwithstanding. No one can seriously say that society has not improved from its condition over the last several thousand years (from a time when you feared murder and enslavement from the family on the over side of the hill). But thousands of years ago, people also worried about ongoing systemic moral and social collapse. Read any religious text, or really almost anything, contemporary to this vestigial state of continuous primal war. This would be funny, but the same is clearly true today as well; romantic and nostalgic people pine for the moral decency and social order of 50 years ago and willfully ignore the profound improvements we have achieved in the intervening decades.

Also, there is the whole (unaddressed) 'oldie music is the best' observation to consider. Over time, people have a tendency to compare present averages and low-points against past positives - while at the same time forgetting or disregarding all of the past averages and low points. The highlights of the past will always beat the averages of the present, but the past is not necessarily better as a whole because of this disparity.

This is all to explain why I was skeptical that advertising could really be morally better 40 years ago - as your "whore" / "professional" binary suggests. There are always unwelcome side effects to institutional change, but, generally, institutional change doesn't make things worse on the whole, regardless of the grouchiness (dare I say crotchety-ness? [smiley-face implied]) of those who experienced that change. Advertising may very well represent an anomaly in this case - you saw it, I didn't - but I hope you can understand such anomalies are hard for me to imagine. In any case, I (graciously, I hope?) concede the point.

CoMobourbon
08-03-2012, 16:19
And in any case, the only thing to do about Nth distillery is to wait and see as several people have suggested.

cowdery
08-05-2012, 21:35
You're right too. I agree with everything you wrote.

I certainly agree that looked at in the broadest way possible, humans have generally made a better job of things as we have gone forward, but that doesn't mean there aren't setbacks. I believed 20-30 years ago that at least some advertising deserved at least some respect. Today I believe very little of it does.

One thing that I think has changed is that younger people today seem shocked whenever someone has the temerity to correct them. Not everybody all of the time, but I make that as a general observation. When you can't tell people they're wrong, on general priciples, it's very hard to change their minds. Honest persuasive speech has been handicapped, and replaced with dishonest persuasive speech.

I recognize that my perspective as a 60-year-old is different from what my perspective was when I was 25. But I can't help it. My observations and conclusions are what they are.

But back to the original issue, I'm 60 but I'm not dead, and I still have money to spend. If advertisers don't take me and people like me into consideration, they'll lose our business to people who do. That hasn't changed.

SmoothAmbler
08-06-2012, 06:44
Larry Ebersold is very highly respected. No less an authority than Jim Rutledge of Four Roses considers Ebersold to be the best living master distiller. The question is whether or not Larry is really coming out of retirement to run this place day to day. I understood he is consulting for them. Although retired, he seems pretty young (I don't know his actual age) so maybe he is. I don't know. It's a couple years away so, like everything else with Nth, we have to wait and see.

I agree with Chuck. Everyone I know in the industry thinks Larry is certainly among the most well qualified distillers in the US. He's a sharp, impressive guy.

fussychicken
08-07-2012, 18:41
One thing that I think has changed is that younger people today seem shocked whenever someone has the temerity to correct them. Not everybody all of the time, but I make that as a general observation. When you can't tell people they're wrong, on general priciples, it's very hard to change their minds. Honest persuasive speech has been handicapped, and replaced with dishonest persuasive speech.

Fully agree to the negative side effects of not being able to tell someone they are wrong. Also will agree lots of Gen Y's have this problem. However, where do you think us young folk learned that trait from? Ever tried to tell a baby boomer they are wrong? Yeah I didn't think so. :) For sure an inherited trait from their folks!

CoMobourbon
08-07-2012, 20:51
Generation war, baby! No mercy for the boomers! We got our entitlement and arrogance ourselves, and we're proud of it! (Horray for thread drift!)

No, I get it though. I would contest many presumptions that boomers carry about those punk-a**, lazy, entitled Gen Y's, presumptions which have been promulgated on this site from time to time (by others not participating in this discussion). But to the extent that it is even possible to generalize about the culture of millions of very disconnected people, I will say that Gen Y is definitely not without its own sins, and obstinacy is perhaps one of them. But I think that its obstinacy is actually born of insecurity and denial of that insecurity more than any other cause. We are perhaps the most epistemologically shaken-up bunch of young people ever, and we are shaken-up in a way that I think Boomers don't quite understand. (The Boomers' revolutions replaced dominant entrenched cultural ideologies with other cultural ideologies; Gen Y is more and more giving up on coherent/unified ideologies altogether.) We are not sure what to believe or even of the basis of valid beliefs. In this dilemma, the only real recourse is to cling to what our peers believe, whether those beliefs manifest themselves in niche sub-cultures or in the mainstream. This annoys everybody for pretty good and straightforward reasons.

cowdery
08-08-2012, 15:19
Yup. We invented it. But, then again, we were always right.