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AaronWF
01-06-2012, 09:35
In another thread I learned that Barton is the source of (or one of the sources of) High West's Rendezvous Rye, as well as the sole source for HW's 16yr Rye. Is HW's 21-year also from Barton? I understand Barton produces Fleischman's Rye (or used to?) and that it's a very tasty young rye.

I really like the flavor profile of VOB BiB and I'm a fan of the HW line from Rendezvous on up (didn't particularly care for Double Rye!). Is Barton still making any rye at all? Are there any other products out there that have Barton rye juice in them (other than the bottom shelf bourbons and blended whiskeys)?

sku
01-06-2012, 11:03
High West 21 is a Barton rye but a lower rye mashbill than the 16 (the 21 is 53% rye, 37% corn, 10% barley).

I assume Barton is still making Fleischman's, but I don't know for sure. I think it has always been reserved for Wisconsin for some reason.

It will be interesting to see what BT does with the Barton distillery. I'd love to see more rye as well as an expanded market for VOB, but so far, they seem to be concentrating mostly on 1792.

cowdery
01-06-2012, 14:54
I know HW got some of their whiskey through circuitous routes. I suspect someone had obtained the whiskey, in barrels, and didn't use all of it which is why it got so old. I find it hard to believe Barton itself had 21-year-old rye lying around, unless it was some 'lost' barrels, which does happen.

I haven't heard anything one way or another about Sazerac's intentions vis a vis rye-making at Barton, but I don't see why they would discontinue it with rye sales on the upswing.

sku
01-06-2012, 15:47
I know High West got a bunch of their older ryes from Pernod Ricard.

One of the interesting things it reveals, that I hadn't known is that Barton apparently has two straight rye mashbills. For a company that deosn't make much rye, that's pretty interesting. Maybe Fleishmann's is a vatting of the two bills. Of course it's also possible that they only use one, but they changed the mashbill at some point.

cowdery
01-08-2012, 18:45
I don't know that Barton necessarily "has two rye mash bills." What they have is a modern and flexible distillery capable of readily making different recipes if they have a customer that wants something custom. Under Sazerac, they're not in that business anymore, but they used to be pretty active in the custom distilling business.

On the other hand, they may have a whole bunch of different recipes, as most of the companies do.

AaronWF
01-17-2012, 21:01
Great info guys. I just recently learned (learned is a strong word, as it only takes looking at the label...) that the 21yr was aged in used cooperage, which is a very odd thing to hear about an American-made rye whiskey. The label on the 16yr states that it was rescued from barrels destined for use in Canadian blends, so that clearly is [one of] the purposes Barton fulfilled as a rye distiller.

Chuck, when you say that most of the companies have a whole bunch of different recipes, are you you saying that most companies that do a lot of 'bulk' whiskey distilling typically have many recipes that they can offer to make for their client, or are you saying that in general most companies 'own' recipes for multiple mashes?

Is contract distilling different from bulk distilling? Like with B-F making Ritt for HH, I assume they are making the juice to HH's specifications rather than offering to distill whiskey from 2 or 3 different mashbills that they specialize in. LDI, on the other hand, seems to just make 95% rye, and whoever wants it can buy it. LDI makes what they make, and is not in the business of catering to a client's requested recipe...?

Also, anyone know if the 16-year 53% rye component of Double Rye is Barton? It's interesting, because that's the mashbill for HW's 21yr rye...

sku
01-17-2012, 21:22
Also, anyone know if the 16-year 53% rye component of Double Rye is Barton? It's interesting, because that's the mashbill for HW's 21yr rye...

Yes, it is Barton.

White Dog
01-18-2012, 10:08
FWIW, Fleischmann's Rye(From Barton) is still on shelves in Northern Wisconsin for about $18.99 a handle. I believe the liters were discontinued.

And yes, it is quite tasty for a young 80 proofer.:cool:

Beer&Bourbon
01-18-2012, 10:40
I'd love to try this stuff. I'm hoping a friend who travels back to Wisconsin every now and then can pick me up a handle next time he goes up. If anyone is headed through Cincy and wants to bring me a handle, I'd gladly share some other ryes and bourbons.

Jono
01-18-2012, 11:16
Q regarding bulk whiskey barrel sales....is there an exchange of some sort?
Is it all private industry selling based in inquiries between bottlerc/ distiller etc?

For example, this online search shows:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/whisky-in-bulk.html

Scotch Whisky In Bulk
Scotch Whisky, Vodka, Gin, Tequila, Rum, Cognac, French Brandy, Pastis, in Bulk or bottled. Please,...
Packaging: Bulk

Bulk Blended Whisky
FOB Price: EUR 4.2-4.4 / Liter
Bulk 5 year old Blended Whisky with perfect quality and taste...

http://www.lombardscotchwhisky.com/

http://www.beveragebusiness.com/archives/article.php?cid=1&eid=28&aid=212
2005

": "As bourbon heats up," he said, "there's less bulk bourbon on the market. People who were willing to sell off barrels, that market's the tightest it's ever been. As a distiller, you want to sell what you make. If you can take your barrels and put them in branded bottles, you make more money and you build your brands . . . and then you make even more money." If bourbon's hot, no one's going to be dumping what they could be making good money on."

A supplier of bulk ethanol for various purposes:
http://www.ultrapure-usa.com/index.html

If you want to age it......have it trucked in. Or, they sell aged bulk spirits too.

cowdery
01-18-2012, 15:21
Great info guys. I just recently learned (learned is a strong word, as it only takes looking at the label...) that the 21yr was aged in used cooperage, which is a very odd thing to hear about an American-made rye whiskey. The label on the 16yr states that it was rescued from barrels destined for use in Canadian blends, so that clearly is [one of] the purposes Barton fulfilled as a rye distiller.

Canadian producers can get a tax break on product they import into the United States by using some U.S.-made spirit, up to 9.9% of the batch's total volume.


Chuck, when you say that most of the companies have a whole bunch of different recipes, are you you saying that most companies that do a lot of 'bulk' whiskey distilling typically have many recipes that they can offer to make for their client, or are you saying that in general most companies 'own' recipes for multiple mashes?

Most have a file of recipes that have been made successfully in their distillery in the past, but they don't necessarily use them very often. Some are vestiges from when there was a lot more contract distilling going on.


Is contract distilling different from bulk distilling? Like with B-F making Ritt for HH, I assume they are making the juice to HH's specifications rather than offering to distill whiskey from 2 or 3 different mashbills that they specialize in.

BF making Rit for HH is a good example. Working with HH, BF went into their files and found a rye whiskey they had made at that distillery many years ago and that became the starting point for BF-made Rit. They also tweaked it along the way.


LDI, on the other hand, seems to just make 95% rye, and whoever wants it can buy it. LDI makes what they make, and is not in the business of catering to a client's requested recipe...?

Same thing, really. LDI's recipes are what they made for Seagram. Primarily they were the flavoring whiskeys for Seagram Seven, but also used for the Seagram Canadian blends per the tax break mentioned above. LDI has continued to make Seagram Seven for Diageo but when they have excess of those flavoring whiskeys, they can and do sell it to folks like Templeton and High West.

The difference between contract and bulk is that with contract, the customer agrees to pay you $x to make a certain amount of a certain whiskey and may also pay you an annual fee to age it. In effect if not in reality, the customer owns the whiskey before the first kernel of corn goes through the mill so the producer's profit, though typically modest, is assured. With bulk, the distiller makes and ages the product at their own expense, on the if-come, in anticipation of selling it at a profit at a future date.

There are different kinds of contracts, lots of possible variations, but that's the basic outline.

RWBadley
01-18-2012, 15:37
High West 21 is a Barton rye but a lower rye mashbill than the 16 (the 21 is 53% rye, 37% corn, 10% barley).

I assume Barton is still making Fleischman's, but I don't know for sure. I think it has always been reserved for Wisconsin for some reason.

It will be interesting to see what BT does with the Barton distillery. I'd love to see more rye as well as an expanded market for VOB, but so far, they seem to be concentrating mostly on 1792.

This has been a great thread- I had recently come across several bottles of the HW21 rye at a good price, and they followed me home.

After sampling and a short comparison to Vintage 21 rye, VWFRR, and Handy rye I was curious as to the source for this HW21. It is very tasty and holds an excellent clean rye expression that I find very attractive. Very different than the others for sure. Glad I got the second bottle, as the first one is going fast...

Cheers,

RW

silverfish
01-18-2012, 16:10
The difference between contract and bulk is that with contract, the customer agrees to pay you $x to make a certain amount of a certain whiskey and may also pay you an annual fee to age it. In effect if not in reality, the customer owns the whiskey before the first kernel of corn goes through the mill so the producer's profit, though typically modest, is assured. With bulk, the distiller makes and ages the product at their own expense, on the if-come, in anticipation of selling it at a profit at a future date.


Thanks for providing that "bare bones" explanation of the
differences between the two. I sometimes confuse them
(as I do "wheated" and "wheater") and it's nice to have that
cleared up.

the Duff
01-18-2012, 20:31
FWIW, Fleischmann's Rye(From Barton) is still on shelves in Northern Wisconsin for about $18.99 a handle. I believe the liters were discontinued.

And yes, it is quite tasty for a young 80 proofer.:cool:

We have this dive of a bar and grille in town that has a liquor store front and they have a lot of different Barton products like gin and vodka. They also have a Fleischmann's Rye but its a blend. I take it the one you speak of is a straight rye?

cowdery
01-18-2012, 21:59
The one we always discuss here is a straight rye. Never heard of a blend. Does it say blended rye or blended whiskey? Fleischmann's blended whiskey is widely distributed.

White Dog
01-19-2012, 12:13
We have this dive of a bar and grille in town that has a liquor store front and they have a lot of different Barton products like gin and vodka. They also have a Fleischmann's Rye but its a blend. I take it the one you speak of is a straight rye?

Yes, I'm speaking of Fleischmann's Straight Rye.

Old Lamplighter
01-19-2012, 16:56
Probably a dumb question at this point...but, what is the difference between LDI and Barton ryes other than being from different sources? I may have interpreted incorrectly, but it sounds like the recipes/mashbills are very similar. Having sampled a couple of High West ryes, I think I have had both. If so, I did not detect much - if any, difference in the two.

cowdery
01-19-2012, 18:00
The LDI is 95% rye and was created to be a flavoring whiskey for blends. The Barton rye has a more conventional mash bill, probably 51% rye like the rest of the straight ryes. Any claims to the contrary for Barton rye need to be verified, because straight rye makers typically don't go above the minimum of 51% because rye is expensive, and Barton has never been known for spending money it doesn't have to spend.

Old Lamplighter
01-19-2012, 19:12
The LDI is 95% rye and was created to be a flavoring whiskey for blends. The Barton rye has a more conventional mash bill, probably 51% rye like the rest of the straight ryes. Any claims to the contrary for Barton rye need to be verified, because straight rye makers typically don't go above the minimum of 51% because rye is expensive, and Barton has never been known for spending money it doesn't have to spend.

Thanks very much...that clears up that part of my muddled memory bank...at least for the next 12 months or upon consumption of 3 more bottles of Stagg...whichever comes first.

AaronWF
01-19-2012, 21:26
Probably a dumb question at this point...but, what is the difference between LDI and Barton ryes other than being from different sources? I may have interpreted incorrectly, but it sounds like the recipes/mashbills are very similar. Having sampled a couple of High West ryes, I think I have had both. If so, I did not detect much - if any, difference in the two.


The LDI is 95% rye and was created to be a flavoring whiskey for blends. The Barton rye has a more conventional mash bill, probably 51% rye like the rest of the straight ryes. Any claims to the contrary for Barton rye need to be verified, because straight rye makers typically don't go above the minimum of 51% because rye is expensive, and Barton has never been known for spending money it doesn't have to spend.

The two mashbills for the HW rye that apparently comes from Barton are 53/37/10 (rye/corn/barley malt) and 80/10/10. According to HW's website, Rendezvous is made of a 6yo 95% rye (LDI) and a 16yo 80% rye (same as the straight 16yo). HW's 21yo rye is 53%, though it's not straight as it's been aged in used oak. HW's Double Rye has a 2yo 95% and a 16yo 53%.

So as far as difference between the Barton and LDI, it seems pretty clear that Barton's two mashbills of 53% and 80% rye are quite different from LDI's rye.

HW's website (http://www.highwest.com/spirits/12-year-old-rye/) also gives an interesting history of how LDI's rye mashbill changed over the years.


There are different kinds of contracts, lots of possible variations, but that's the basic outline.

I appreciate the lesson, Chuck!

sku
01-19-2012, 22:01
HW's 21yo rye is 53%, though it's not straight as it's been aged in used oak.

Just a technical point on the regs. It's actually not that it can't be called "straight" because of the used cooperage, it's that it can be called "rye whiskey". Rye whiskey, like bourbon, must be aged in new charred oak barrels. If you look at the lable on the 21, it's not "rye whiskey", it's "whiskey distilled from rye mash."

cowdery
01-20-2012, 12:28
A 53% rye is a straight rye. An 80% rye is a flavoring whiskey for blends, of which Barton has several. Possibly for use in their Canadian blends, for the 9.9% rule.

Most of the majors (except Brown-Forman) have blends. The whiskey they make as straights can function as a flavoring whiskey for blends too, but I assume they also make some spirits strictly for flavoring blends, like the LDI 95% rye, but it's not something they talk about very much.

cowdery
01-20-2012, 12:39
HW's website (http://www.highwest.com/spirits/12-year-old-rye/) also gives an interesting history of how LDI's rye mashbill changed over the years.

Nice to see Larry Ebersold getting some credit. He's the guy who created the LDI 95% rye.