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jburlowski
01-15-2012, 15:52
Noticed at the store to say that the new bottles of WSR no longer have an AS. (Or maybe the marketing flacks at BT will say "there was no room on the label".)

fishnbowljoe
01-15-2012, 16:15
Oh Boy. Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Halifax
01-15-2012, 16:53
The new images are already up at greatbourbon.com

T Comp
01-15-2012, 17:00
Looks like the supply not meeting demand is now the reality that was seen coming...or is it the history of BT being very successful with other nas products.

callmeox
01-15-2012, 17:27
Well, according to my conversation with Kris Comstock when the OWA went NAS...we can now worry. :bigeyes:

CaptainQ
01-15-2012, 17:45
Damn, say it isn't so.....

End of an era. :cry:

AaronWF
01-15-2012, 17:54
Well there's a tidy excuse for a run on the Binny's AS WSR that's sill pretty plentiful on the shelves...

smokinjoe
01-15-2012, 18:21
OK, this is just me talking.....Just my opinion, as I'm sure there will be many that are contrary to it......But....:22::22::22::22::22::22::22::22:. I reckon I'm in the minority, but WSR is The Most Boring bourbon in our enthusiast crosshairs. Not one redeeming quality to my fine tastes ;), other than when it's deeply discounted to $9.99. And even then, I don't buy it. But, here's my concern. IMHO, the Weller Antique has survived going to NAS to this point. I'm just hoping that this move isn't a sign of the brand continuing to take hits, and the OWA taking another hit, too. If so, I'll leave all the WSR for whomever cherishes them, but will attempt to put my fair share of OWA away in my bunker.

DeanSheen
01-15-2012, 18:25
Ahh boy. This sucks.

I hope we are not to the point the bourbon is so popular that quality does not matter. OWA Nas is my favorite EDP.

jburlowski
01-15-2012, 18:30
OK, this is just me talking.....Just my opinion, as I'm sure there will be many that are contrary to it......But....:22::22::22::22::22::22::22::22:. I reckon I'm in the minority, but WSR is The Most Boring bourbon in our enthusiast crosshairs. Not one redeeming quality to my fine tastes ;), other than when it's deeply discounted to $9.99. And even then, I don't buy it. But, here's my concern. IMHO, the Weller Antique has survived going to NAS to this point. I'm just hoping that this move isn't a sign of the brand continuing to take hits, and the OWA taking another hit, too. If so, I'll leave all the WSR for whomever cherishes them, but will attempt to put my fair share of OWA away in my bunker.

Joe:
I hear you. But I don't think BT went to NAS in a vacuum. Something's up...

Halifax
01-15-2012, 18:33
Joe:
I hear you. But I don't think BT went to NAS in a vacuum. Something's up...

No doubt... If WSR is now NAS. One has to wonder... Is Weller 12 next?

T Comp
01-15-2012, 18:37
OK, this is just me talking.....Just my opinion, as I'm sure there will be many that are contrary to it......But....:22::22::22::22::22::22::22::22:. I reckon I'm in the minority, but WSR is The Most Boring bourbon in our enthusiast crosshairs. Not one redeeming quality to my fine tastes ;), other than when it's deeply discounted to $9.99. And even then, I don't buy it. But, here's my concern. IMHO, the Weller Antique has survived going to NAS to this point. I'm just hoping that this move isn't a sign of the brand continuing to take hits, and the OWA taking another hit, too. If so, I'll leave all the WSR for whomever cherishes them, but will attempt to put my fair share of OWA away in my bunker.

Joe I agree with you on WSR (even the Binny's and Everett's) but with it having the age statement and supposedly being dumped at the same time as the OWA we at least knew that the OWA nsa was still 7 years old but now...

smokinjoe
01-15-2012, 18:51
Right fellas. The Van Winkel brand is the answer, here, I think. BT will hit a grand slam by selling Weller product under VW labels at 2-3 times the price. Heck, maybe 3-4X's...I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Great business sense if you can pull it off. They've certainly been laying the groundwork from a marketing perspective the last year, or so. It's a business...We shouldn't forget, it's a business...

yountvillewjs
01-15-2012, 19:22
The Van Winkel brand is the answer, here, I think. BT will hit a grand slam by selling Weller product under VW labels at 2-3 times the price. Heck, maybe 3-4X's...I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Great business sense if you can pull it off. They've certainly been laying the groundwork from a marketing perspective the last year, or so. It's a business...We shouldn't forget, it's a business...

Assuming Julian owns the VW label, I'd have a hard time seeing this happen. Still a green newbie, but I'd guess the production on the Weller brand is much larger than that of VW (which I don't think BT owns anyhow). I've read too many interviews with JVW to think he'd sell out and take production up like that.

That said, I have a hard time consistently finding Weller products, so I'd guess demand is the driver here. YMMV

trumpstylz
01-15-2012, 19:42
Right fellas. The Van Winkel brand is the answer, here, I think. BT will hit a grand slam by selling Weller product under VW labels at 2-3 times the price. Heck, maybe 3-4X's...I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Great business sense if you can pull it off. They've certainly been laying the groundwork from a marketing perspective the last year, or so. It's a business...We shouldn't forget, it's a business...

"It's a bizniss, it ain't unicef."
-Joe Dirt

DeanSheen
01-15-2012, 20:01
Right fellas. The Van Winkel brand is the answer, here, I think. BT will hit a grand slam by selling Weller product under VW labels at 2-3 times the price. Heck, maybe 3-4X's...I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Great business sense if you can pull it off. They've certainly been laying the groundwork from a marketing perspective the last year, or so. It's a business...We shouldn't forget, it's a business...

I get all that. I just remain on the "killing the golden goose" side of the equation.

VW has been hyped very well by the marketing people. Now comes the real test, in the information age can premium prices be maintained when people find out that 'SW all Gone'?

Anyways, forget all this premium nonsense, now I'm gonna have to start hoarding things like OWA and Saz Jr. and Weller 12. Now it's like I have to chase the regular stuff let alone the ltd. expressions.

Maybe it's time to switch to vodka and forget all this nonsense. :grin:

T Comp
01-15-2012, 20:14
Assuming Julian owns the VW label, I'd have a hard time seeing this happen. Still a green newbie, but I'd guess the production on the Weller brand is much larger than that of VW (which I don't think BT owns anyhow). I've read too many interviews with JVW to think he'd sell out and take production up like that.



There is only one wheat mashbill recipe being distilled at BT that is going into both the Wellers and the Van Winkles (that are comprised of BT distilled). It is ageing barrel selection that will then separate them. There are prior posts here from Julian himself hinting as to when the ORVW and then Lot B changed to BT distilled. It is now going on 10 years since their formed relationship and the demand for the ageing barrels has increased because of that relationship. Only BT knows when their wheat recipe production increased and if it was only 3,4 or 5 years ago there is going to be shortages till ageing stock catches up.

Parkersback
01-15-2012, 20:35
No doubt... If WSR is now NAS. One has to wonder... Is Weller 12 next?

Here's hoping since "12" is in the name that we're in the clear there.

smokinjoe
01-15-2012, 20:53
I get all that. I just remain on the "killing the golden goose" side of the equation.

VW has been hyped very well by the marketing people. Now comes the real test, in the information age can premium prices be maintained when people find out that 'SW all Gone'?

Anyways, forget all this premium nonsense, now I'm gonna have to start hoarding things like OWA and Saz Jr. and Weller 12. Now it's like I have to chase the regular stuff let alone the ltd. expressions.

Maybe it's time to switch to vodka and forget all this nonsense. :grin:

Jimmy can help you with that vodka thing. :D

The total number of people on the planet who know of S-W, and care about S-W, is equal to the number of members on this site...halved. The VW brand name is what's important now. And, the Van Winkle's themselves have little say in it. BT is driving that bus now. They'll keep the legend going, because it furthers the effort. The information age you refer to is full of the fluff of the brand, and little of the truth of S-W/VW. Did you hear that David Chang video? That's it in a nutshell. You think the S-W discussions on dates, provenance, distillate are f&*$d up now? It will only get worse. BT will see to that. These guys are good. Very good. Please don't take this to mean I think this is a bad thing, or that BT are bad people. Not in the least. I love BT. It's just how business is done. They are following a tried and true model. It's been successful thousands of times across a wide spectrum of bussinesses, and will be successful a thousand more times. Heck, it's been done in the bourbon industry for decades. And finally, don't think the Van Winkle's are being dragged into this kicking and screaming. My guess would be that the opposite is true. There's a lot of money to be made for everyone when it works. And, they've fought the good fight for a lot of years. And, brought us a lot of great whiskey during that time. I'll bet it wasn't easy. They could have mailed it in a long time ago. But, whiskey is in their blood.

It's a business. Steel, plastic, cars, TV's, widgets...bourbon.

Julian P. Van Winkle will be to his whiskey, what Ettore Boiardi is to his pasta...

fishnbowljoe
01-15-2012, 21:31
And I just had to love wheaters. :skep: There goes that to hell in a hand basket. :cry:

smokinjoe
01-15-2012, 21:38
And I just had to love wheaters. :skep: There goes that to hell in a hand basket. :cry:

"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." :D

mosugoji64
01-15-2012, 22:23
So, we'll have to start referring to WSR 7yr now?
Presumably BT feels pretty confident they can match the flavor profile without 7-year whiskey, right? While I'm not happy about this, I've been pretty happy with their performance on OWA. Maybe this won't be a bad thing. Maybe ...

DeanSheen
01-15-2012, 22:49
So, we'll have to start referring to WSR 7yr now?
Presumably BT feels pretty confident they can match the flavor profile without 7-year whiskey, right? While I'm not happy about this, I've been pretty happy with their performance on OWA. Maybe this won't be a bad thing. Maybe ...

Ohh it's a bad thing.

The question is if brand dilution can survive the long game. Since 'merica has not quite grown up in terms of palette evolution the answer is 'probably'.

But that wall 'o diminishing returns' is a steep slope indeed when the thrill is gone, or the bloom is off the rose, or uhh the "chrome ain't so shiny no more".

Then again, there IS the 'wax which shall not be named'. And the disneyfication of 'merica shall continue, and:

'the marketers shall inherit the earth' (deansheen 3:16)

So I guess the point has already been proven. Death to good bourbon, long live good bourbon.

fishnbowljoe
01-15-2012, 23:23
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." :D

Yeah. "Here's looking at you kid."

Old Lamplighter
01-16-2012, 05:04
No doubt... If WSR is now NAS. One has to wonder... Is Weller 12 next?

That is the logical line of thought but not something that will likely happen right away...but, who knows? BT apparently has done a pretty darn good job with OWA so I guess they have become emboldened to move on down the line. Just another label to fall in line with the continuing trend of age statements being a thing of yesteryear.

While OWA has been successful thus far, WT101 is a miserable failure in this regard IMHO. A preliminary thought: I wonder if the wheaters are easier to match taste profile? Another question: how far will this proceed? If we look 10 years down the road, will there be no age statements except on the ultra-premium labels? Sounds like northbound prices on those. Of course, it could backfire in terms of price on the NAS and we see those numbers plateau...we can only hope for the best...lol

Halifax
01-16-2012, 06:31
That is the logical line of thought but not something that will likely happen right away...but, who knows?...

They sure didn't have a problem dropping Old Charter 12. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't know that hard statistics... Perhaps someone with more industry knowledge can chime in. My guess is that Lot B is more widely distributed than Weller 12. From what I was told during my visit to BT last year, Weller 12 is only sold in about a third of the US. I can find Lot B easier than Weller 12. Regardless of how it shakes out, or who controls what... Sazerac/BT makes a significantly higher profit margin on a case of Lot B than they do on Weller 12. So... Given the recent change of WSR, I am skeptical that BT will continue to support Weller 12. Hopefully I am wrong...

T Comp
01-16-2012, 07:14
Well this is as good a time as any to revisit the angst and speculation that took place when the OWA nas label came out back in '09.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12981&highlight=OWA+NAS

Note callmeox's conversation with BT too:


I spoke to someone at Buffalo Trace and I was told that 7 year old barrels are selected and dumped for both OWA and WSR. Some juice is directed to be cut to proof for OWA and the rest is cut and bottled at 90 proof for SR. It all starts as the same batch of aged juice. They also added that if the SR ever loses its age statement, then we can worry. I think that's a pretty important thought.

IIRC, WSR outsells OWA by a factor of 5 or 6 so anywhere from 75 to 90% of the dumped aged stock gets bottled as SR. If the OWA label change was really intended to extend their ability to sell wheated brands without proper stock, why mess with the lower impact, lower selling brand? It's a drop in the bucket when compared to its stable mate.

I understand that this doesn't appeal to the emotional responses and those looking for bourbon industry villains, but it looks like a case of "as goes SR so goes OWA" and SR is still age stated bourbon.

cowdery
01-16-2012, 09:58
I don't think it's VW so much as it is the success of Weller itself. Even if they grow VW a little bit faster than they have, the total VW volume is a drop in the bucket beside Weller and Weller isn't a huge brand.

I don't think they're going to dramatically increase VW availability. That would be a big risk, especially since Julian did all those interviews about how his strategy is to increase volume very slowly so he can be assured of selling every drop without having to work too hard. (He didn't exactly say it like that.)

The choice usually is, lose the age statement or up the price, and the fact is a price increase usually hurts sales more than a label change, which is all this is to most people, a label change. Evan Williams and Wild Turkey didn't pay a price for dropping their age statements and they're much bigger brands than Weller.

I predict they will drop Weller 12, sadly, but that's just conjecture. I have no inside information.

Josh
01-16-2012, 12:04
Can't say I am really surprised by this news, assuming it's not just another confusing quirk of the Great Bourbons website.

I agree with Joe (the smokin' one) on Weller SR. It's really dull. I'm not crying any tears of the loss of the age statement on SR.

I am now terrified for Weller 12, though. Not b/c I necessarily think its demise is imminent but because Chuck conjectured it might be. I now fear the Van Winkle hysteria may now spread to Weller 12!

jcg9779
01-16-2012, 12:17
I enjoy the WSR, but agree that it's not as good as the OWA. I reach for WSR more than Maker's but they have the exact same role for me - a simple, easy drinking bourbon. At $9.99 I bought six of them, because it's good enough to drink neat and I don't mind if friends dump it into coke, ginger, or whatever. To that point, it's the perfect party bourbon for me...non-bourbon drinkers aren't scared away because of proof or harshness, I don't care if it's mixed, and I still enjoy it as it is.

Clavius
01-16-2012, 14:12
I bought a bottle of OWA a few days ago and I just don't like it as much as I remember. Could be because I've been drinking so much scotch lately. However, with this news I will definitely be picking up a few bottles of WSR 7-year to mark the end of an era.

Tico
01-16-2012, 14:24
Wow, pretty interesting stuff. I have always been a fan of the WSR for the price and will definitely be stocking a few for the bunker just for fun. OTOH, I really like the Weller 12 and hope they keep it as for as long as possible.

dohidied
01-16-2012, 14:30
Crap. I've never tasted WSR and have no desire to, but as it directly affects OWA I am scared. I think I now must devote bunker space to OWA. And then Chuck had to start fearing for W12. Man, I don't have the space for all of these SB Weller vatting fixins.

smokinjoe
01-16-2012, 15:25
A retailer that I would consider knowledgeable and well connected said today that there is a rumor floating about that BT may be discontinuing the Eagle Rare? :skep:

jcg9779
01-16-2012, 15:33
A retailer that I would consider knowledgeable and well connected said today that there is a rumor floating about that BT may be discontinuing the Eagle Rare? :skep:

Someone else posted that somewhere on here, but I can't find the thread. I think the thought was that more and more barrels will go towards the main brands - mainly BT and Stagg - since they all have the same higher corn mashbill. Someone please jump in if I'm off base.

smokinjoe
01-16-2012, 15:37
Someone else posted that somewhere on here, but I can't find the thread. I think the thought was that more and more barrels will go towards the main brands - mainly BT and Stagg - since they all have the same higher corn mashbill. Someone please jump in if I'm off base.

Louse. I hate when the rumors I'm trying to spread get partially substantiated so quickly! :D

jcg9779
01-16-2012, 16:05
Louse. I hate when the rumors I'm trying to spread get partially substantiated so quickly! :D

Oops...


:banghead:

DeanSheen
01-16-2012, 16:14
Louse. I hate when the rumors I'm trying to spread get partially substantiated so quickly! :D

Ohh this just keeps getting better and better. So all the mid shelfers are disappearing. Great. I love that pricepoint for ER and I don't mind the juice at all.

So basically in this thread I learned that OWA could suck soon, ER could disappear, and Weller 12 may not be far behind. Strike up the band!

fishnbowljoe
01-16-2012, 16:34
Great. OWA and Weller SR have changed. Weller 12 and ERSB may disappear. At least I should have enough of all those in my bunker to hold me till hell freezes over.

Crap! I just heard a rumor that hell may soon freeze over. Guess I was right for a change. :skep:

Parkersback
01-16-2012, 16:39
At least they didn't insult us by putting, "Old No. 7 Recipe" on the neck.

jcg9779
01-16-2012, 16:49
At least they didn't insult us by putting, "Old No. 7 Recipe" on the neck.

Well, they haven't done it YET.

:lol:

Old Lamplighter
01-16-2012, 18:30
Sounds like it's time to start Weller 12 hunting & hoarding. It don't take much to start a 'run on the bank'.:rolleyes:

cowdery
01-16-2012, 23:54
Although Stagg has grown quite a bit it's still tiny compared to BT or ER. They are on completely different scales, volume wise. There is no need to rob ER to pay GTS.

BT makes a little more sense but only a little. There again, this theory only works if they have woefully underestimated the demand for BT. That would be a huge goof. It just seems very unlikely. All of these brands are managed and I haven't seen any evidence that they are mismanaged. This should be a good time for BT. They have a whole bunch of brands and the rising tide is raising all ships, so they should be sitting pretty. They have plenty of distilling capacity so if they are having trouble meeting demand at the higher ages, they can easily pump more in at the other end. They just have to allocate until production catches up, which is normal, especially now.

But, yes, GTS, ER and BT all have the same mash bill.

The BT line-up has been stable for quite a while. Yes, dropping the age statement on WSR is a change, but a relatively minor one compared with discontinuing a brand. It hasn't been that long since they dropped the 101 in favor of the current product. They've got it at a good price point, why would they drop it?

Yes, BT has done well, but Saz is not an all-the-eggs-in-one-basket company. Killing ER10 to plug that volume into BT seems very drastic, uncharacteristically so.

DeanSheen
01-17-2012, 08:20
Thanks counselor. The nervosa is understood by so very few accredited professionals.


But, yes, GTS, ER and BT all have the same mash bill.

This does beg a stupid question that just passed through my mind. What accounts for the color difference between ER101 and ER90? A few less years in the barrel or the added water?

cowdery
01-17-2012, 09:19
This does beg a stupid question that just passed through my mind. What accounts for the color difference between ER101 and ER90? A few less years in the barrel or the added water?

That, i.e., both, and unless you're comparing the color in two identical glasses, rather than by eyeballing the bottles, the difference in bottle shape makes a big difference.

cowdery
01-17-2012, 09:21
The official word is that both WSR and OWA are still 7-years-old but they took the age statement off so they could make "90 proof" more prominent, because many competitors in the same price segment are less than that.

I told them how people here feel about spoken assurances after an age statement disappears from the label: not worth the paper they're not printed on.

Brisko
01-17-2012, 09:24
Well, I don't really care about WSR specifically (and if I did, I'd point out that the current NAS OWA is probably a little better than the last couple years of the age stated).

What I do care about is another age statement lost. Has there ever been an instance of an age statement coming back after it's been dropped? Not a rhetorical question, by the way.

Now, I realize that NAS gives the producers more room to work, and maybe put out a more consistent product. But as a consumer, I still prefer the age statement. I also wish there were more BiBs still around, but that's another topic.

I guess the alternative would be allocation, which means less revenue... but it can create great buzz for the brand (look at, well, any whiskey that's been allocated to see that effect).

Or, worse yet, is the example of Baby Saz-- dropped the statement and still has supply hiccups. Of course with Saz and Rittenhouse (is the 80 proof still 3 y/o?) the issue is excess demand. I don't get the impression that WSR suddenly jumped in popularity.

cowdery
01-17-2012, 09:31
Did Baby Saz ever have an age statement?

I can't think of an instance in which an age statement has "come back," but line extensions with age statements sometimes appear in lines that haven't had them previously.

In some ways, age statements -- especially on 'value' brands -- are a vestige of the glut era. It's hard to say what will happen going forward. I know one of the big blended scotches that uses age statements--Chivas, I think--has research that shows people like them and perceive a stated age as having value.

Heaven Hill built Evan Williams into a major brand largely on the strength of three tangible and objective facts: more age, more proof, lower price. Of the three, only the third remains and the brand still does just fine.

JayMonster
01-17-2012, 10:21
In some ways, age statements -- especially on 'value' brands -- are a vestige of the glut era.


I know one of the big blended scotches that uses age statements--Chivas, I think--has research that shows people like them and perceive a stated age as having value.

I think those two statements really sum it up. An Age Statement on a "Value Brand" was a way to try and give some additional value without having to drop the price more.

And with the Chivas research, the key word is *perceived* value. The fact that it is just (arguably) better than say a Dewars or J&B (I speaking in a bar or average person walking into a liquor store, not the "educated consumer") just gets highlighted and the age is ASSUMED to be the reason that it is better.

If Chivas decided tomorrow to remove their age statement, it doesn't mean that the product is going to be any better or worse.

But for some reason with Bourbon it seems that the automatic assumption (at least here) is that removing the Age Statement automatically means an inferior product. But if everything else as to quality of ingredients, materials, etc. stays the same and the taste remains unchanged, does it really matter if it is 7.5 years rather than 8 or 9?

There is plenty of crap out there that is aged... it just makes it old crap. The Good Stuff may be aged more, but it is the fact that it is good to begin with that makes it important, not the age stated on the bottle.

(In my Not So Humble Newbie Opinon of Course)

ILLfarmboy
01-17-2012, 10:30
I don't remember Baby Saz ever having an age statement.

What I lament is the stratifying of brands into top shelf extra aged and lower and bottom shelf 'value' brands with no age statements. You just know the product will be degraded over time. It's like going into a grocery store and only being able to buy cheese whiz in a can or spending 8 bux for 6 oz of fancy imported Dutch Havarti. Damn it man. I want an in between option!

Does this make me an unusual consumer, someone the marketing folks don't wish to court?

White Dog
01-17-2012, 11:09
I don't remember Baby Saz ever having an age statement.

What I lament is the stratifying of brands into top shelf extra aged and lower and bottom shelf 'value' brands with no age statements. You just know the product will be degraded over time. It's like going into a grocery store and only being able to buy cheese whiz in a can or spending 8 bux for 6 oz of fancy imported Dutch Havarti. Damn it man. I want an in between option!

Does this make me an unusual consumer, someone the marketing folks don't wish to court?

And with this label change, they may now start degrading the product. The "official" response in regards to highlighting the 90 proof seems like BS to me. If it's truly a 7yr, then slide it onto the back label. They can find the room. The real reason is that older stocks are getting scarce, at the moment, and Weller SR and Antique have slipped under 7 years of age.

Maybe "Weller 12" will become "Weller 1-2." Sazerac wanted to highlight the
fact that Weller 1-2 comes from 1 to 2 warehouses in the fine state of Kentucky.:rolleyes:

bad_scientist
01-17-2012, 11:24
Someone else posted that somewhere on here, but I can't find the thread. I think the thought was that more and more barrels will go towards the main brands - mainly BT and Stagg - since they all have the same higher corn mashbill. Someone please jump in if I'm off base.

K&L Wines sent out an e-mail warning that ER might not be released this year. They didn't mention anything about killing the label, but in general they were all doom and gloom, telling us to stock up (preferably at K&L Wines, I assume) on older bourbons, since they were not going to be around forever.

Brisko
01-17-2012, 11:41
Re: Baby Saz
I think you guys are right, maybe it never did have an age statement. However it's been referred to casually as a six year old, even in Hansell's review of it. At least, I can't find a photo of a label with an age statement visible.

Here's the thing. Somebody started the rumor that Baby Saz is 6 years old, whether it's on the label or not. No different than the claim that Buffalo Trace is "about 9 years old." Or any number of other such unsubstantiated claims from various producers.

Bottom line, is that age is used as a marketing point even if it's not officially stated. I think that's BS. If you're going to work that angle, I think you should put it on the label. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe you.

And yes, I agree that more age doesn't always equal a better product, BUT: 7, 8 or 9 years is almost always better than 4 or 5, or 4 with a little bit of 8 year thrown in for seasoning.

Josh
01-17-2012, 12:00
Re: Saz's age statement, I think a new thread is in order...

trumpstylz
01-17-2012, 15:23
But for some reason with Bourbon it seems that the automatic assumption (at least here) is that removing the Age Statement automatically means an inferior product. But if everything else as to quality of ingredients, materials, etc. stays the same and the taste remains unchanged, does it really matter if it is 7.5 years rather than 8 or 9?

There is plenty of crap out there that is aged... it just makes it old crap. The Good Stuff may be aged more, but it is the fact that it is good to begin with that makes it important, not the age stated on the bottle.


I agree. I would much rather see distilleries barreling at a lower proof and also distilling at a lower proof than just adding a few years to a bottling.

Josh
01-17-2012, 15:46
I agree. I would much rather see distilleries barreling at a lower proof and also distilling at a lower proof than just adding a few years to a bottling.

Fun fact: Popular SB.com whipping boy Maker's Mark barrels at one of the lowest proofs in the business, perhaps as low as 110. Do with that knowledge nugget what you will.

Old Lamplighter
01-17-2012, 16:57
To tell you the truth, I have not seen a WSR with an age statement in at least a year & maybe two years in my wandering/hunting region. I found an old dusty WSR Louisville today and talked to the store owner a bit. He said WSR had no age statement starting with the new bottle design 1-2 years ago. The only reason he still had the old one I purchased was the 1L size just doesn't sell he said.

I guess that is why this thread kinda caught me off guard initially. Maybe there were still a good many old bottle design WSRs out there and a lot of folk are just now seeing the new ones. Or, maybe there was an age statement on the new design and us non-observant folk here in TN never noticed(?). If that is the case and it has now been removed, I need to get new glasses before I screw up further...lol

nblair
01-17-2012, 17:00
Fun fact: Popular SB.com whipping boy Maker's Mark barrels at one of the lowest proofs in the business, perhaps as low as 110. Do with that knowledge nugget what you will.

Recently did a blind taste test of WSR and MM (WSR NAS unbeknownst to me, I went back to check the bottle and sure enough it said 90 on the neck). My Wife poured while I was looking the other way, so I had no idea one way or the other. It was obvious which one was which. Could pick it on nose alone, but tasted to confirm. I enjoyed the Maker's more.

I've always told myself if someone paid the extra expense to barrel at a lower proof, I'd pay the extra cash for a bottle. I just can't do it for Maker's, though. Maker's goes in at 110, Weller goes in at 114. A 1.75 of Weller is $22.99, Maker's is pushing $40 I believe.

I applaud Wild Turkey more than Maker's, because they barrel at much lower proof than most ryed bourbons (around 115 I think). Even then, I really want to get a bottle of Tradition, but can't talk myself into forking over $100.

Maybe I need to change my stance to:
If you pay the extra expense to barrel at a lower proof, I'll pay more cash for the bottle (minus marketing fees and pretty packaging fees). :D

White Dog
01-17-2012, 19:18
Fun fact: Popular SB.com whipping boy Maker's Mark barrels at one of the lowest proofs in the business, perhaps as low as 110. Do with that knowledge nugget what you will.

Too bad it's only 4 years old.:grin:

smokinjoe
01-17-2012, 20:40
Too bad it's only 4 years old.:grin:

4 yrs? Are you....sure...?

trumpstylz
01-17-2012, 20:57
To tell you the truth, I have not seen a WSR with an age statement in at least a year & maybe two years in my wandering/hunting region. l

I think they're there- its just up on the neck where nobody notices it.

trumpstylz
01-17-2012, 20:59
Maker's goes in at 110, Weller goes in at 114.


I'm pretty sure Maker's increased it to 115 or so IIRC.

trumpstylz
01-17-2012, 21:00
Too bad it's only 4 years old.:grin:

Yeah, I was pretty sure it "averaged" about 7 or 8.

Old Lamplighter
01-17-2012, 21:14
I think they're there- its just up on the neck where nobody notices it.

You are right...I either never noticed or was so used to "7" being there on older bottles that I did not pay particular attention. A lot of this one in west TN. I will have to pay better attention from now on...thanks.

DeanSheen
01-17-2012, 21:28
I think they're there- its just up on the neck where nobody notices it.

Man, that reflected image is scary.

tommyboy38
01-17-2012, 21:35
When will Weller 12 year become Weller Old No. 12?

White Dog
01-18-2012, 09:59
4 yrs? Are you....sure...?

No. IMHO, it tastes like it's no more than 5, but hey, why should I believe any producer in regards to their NAS bottlings. All I can say for certain is that they're all 4 years old. Does anyone think that Baby Saz is really 6?

jcg9779
01-18-2012, 11:08
To tell you the truth, I have not seen a WSR with an age statement in at least a year & maybe two years in my wandering/hunting region. I found an old dusty WSR Louisville today and talked to the store owner a bit. He said WSR had no age statement starting with the new bottle design 1-2 years ago. The only reason he still had the old one I purchased was the 1L size just doesn't sell he said.

I guess that is why this thread kinda caught me off guard initially. Maybe there were still a good many old bottle design WSRs out there and a lot of folk are just now seeing the new ones. Or, maybe there was an age statement on the new design and us non-observant folk here in TN never noticed(?). If that is the case and it has now been removed, I need to get new glasses before I screw up further...lol

I have some of the new design bottles with the age statement.

cowdery
01-18-2012, 14:58
We have a right to be skeptical of age statements that aren't on the bottle, but MM claims their product is 5-6 years old.

Same deal with WSR, but I've been advised that if you have a problem with it, you should take it up with Kris Comstock, the brand manager. I should remind you that Kris was an offensive tackle for the UK Wildcats (1995-1998), 1998 First Team All-SEC, was drafted by the Cleveland Browns in 1999, and for his draft class was listed at 6'8", 319 lbs.

You might want to take that into consideration.

trumpstylz
01-18-2012, 15:27
Man, that reflected image is scary.


Haha yeah, I just googled it and got it randomly out of the images section.

fishnbowljoe
01-18-2012, 15:35
Okay, according to my sources......

Weller SR and OWA have lost the age statement, but they are still 7 years old. (I know. This has been stated by others.) The ERSB isn't going away. There's a chance that BT may actually market it a little more heavily. Maybe the BTAC ER 17 is going away???? (A little conjecture here.) The Weller 12 is safe. However, it will only be released on a limited basis. Once a year like the BTAC and VW products.

White Dog
01-18-2012, 16:04
Okay, according to my sources......

Weller SR and OWA have lost the age statement, but they are still 7 years old. (I know. This has been stated by others.) The ERSB isn't going away. There's a chance that BT may actually market it a little more heavily. Maybe the BTAC ER 17 is going away???? (A little conjecture here.) The Weller 12 is safe. However, it will only be released on a limited basis. Once a year like the BTAC and VW products.

Come on, Joe. If they were really 7 years old, it would be very easy to put it somewhere on the label. But they don't, do they.:rolleyes: And don't get me wrong, I also love every version of Weller, but removing the age speaks volumes.

Old Lamplighter
01-18-2012, 16:37
I also love every version of Weller, but removing the age speaks volumes.

Reluctantly, I must agree. It has always been said that changing a label is not an easy process (e.g. VWFRR 13yo) and something companies don't do on a whim. There is a reason to no longer have it there...it is no longer 100% seven (or more) years old, plain & simple.

cowdery
01-18-2012, 16:42
Typically, when they remove an age statement, it's not because they immediately plan to start using younger whiskey, but because they want the option to do so in the future. On one level, at least, it's not evil, as if they can match the brand's flavor profile using some younger whiskey, nobody gets hurt, and it's usually done with a brand where they don't want to raise the price, because that's what hurts volume.

Parkersback
01-18-2012, 17:21
Okay, according to my sources...The Weller 12 is safe. However, it will only be released on a limited basis. Once a year like the BTAC and VW products.

With requisite price hike, presumably? I feel like I should pick up a case right now while it's still $20 a bottle.

Old Lamplighter
01-18-2012, 17:27
With requisite price hike, presumably? I feel like I should pick up a case right now while it's still $20 a bottle.

I certainly would as the "requisite price hike" will no doubt come surely sooner than later. Wow, $20 is a great price. Maybe the retailer will give you a further break on buying a case. I have seen it in my riding circuit for $24-30. I hope all of this doesn't start a 'run'. I may have to go get it @ $24 while still there and while still $24...lol

Bentrod
01-18-2012, 19:27
When will Weller 12 year become Weller Old No. 12?

Or how about Weller 12 Star?

BourbonJoe
01-18-2012, 19:41
Or how about Weller 12 Star?
I'm sure that's already in the works. I only like age stated whiskey, so here's another one I won't buy.
Joe :usflag:

Old Lamplighter
01-19-2012, 04:46
Or how about Weller 12 Star?

We laugh...but, what will it be called since it is has always been "Weller 12"? Taking this discussion a step further, what are the chances the label will be be ditched altogether? Otherwise, why would they market two (2) NAS 90 proofers in WSR and what is now known as Weller 12? IIRC, WSR has been around a lot longer and is much more well established than the Weller 12 label.

JayMonster
01-19-2012, 05:08
We laugh...but, what will it be called since it is has always been "Weller 12"?

They could alway leave Weller 12 alone and just move it up market and price it as a premium for those willing to pay more for the age statement.

Wall Eye
01-19-2012, 06:27
They could alway leave Weller 12 alone and just move it up market and price it as a premium for those willing to pay more for the age statement.

Weller 12 Lot C. With corresponding price increase and availability decrease.

trumpstylz
01-20-2012, 02:10
They could alway leave Weller 12 alone and just move it up market and price it as a premium for those willing to pay more for the age statement.

I don't see the price going up that much in price (no more than 5 or 10 at the most) seeing that the van winkle 10 years are available for 5-10$ more.

Probably just trying to create more demand for it by limiting its availability.

JayMonster
01-20-2012, 04:23
I don't see the price going up that much in price (no more than 5 or 10 at the most) seeing that the van winkle 10 years are available for 5-10$ more.

Probably just trying to create more demand for it by limiting its availability.

Of course that means you are assuming that the Van Winkle 10 year

1. Doesn't also go up in price

or

2. Doesn't go NAS :bigeyes:

Brisko
01-20-2012, 08:12
Of course that means you are assuming that the Van Winkle 10 year

1. Doesn't also go up in price

or

2. Doesn't go NAS :bigeyes:

I can't speak to number 1 but number 2 is laughable. The Van Winkle business model is built on solid branding and very limited availability. Removing an age statement would directly undercut the brand, and ease supply when they don't really want to.

If the Van Winkles get thin on 10 y/o stock, they'll either release less of it, or find another source. I'm pretty sure they've done both in the past.

JayMonster
01-20-2012, 09:42
I can't speak to number 1 but number 2 is laughable. The Van Winkle business model is built on solid branding and very limited availability. Removing an age statement would directly undercut the brand, and ease supply when they don't really want to.

If the Van Winkles get thin on 10 y/o stock, they'll either release less of it, or find another source. I'm pretty sure they've done both in the past.

My point wasn't that either of these were going to happen or even a possibility. All I was trying to say is you can't assume a price on Weller 12 based on the price of ORV (of any other product for that matter),

StraightNoChaser
01-20-2012, 10:23
I can't speak to number 1 but number 2 is laughable. The Van Winkle business model is built on solid branding and very limited availability. Removing an age statement would directly undercut the brand, and ease supply when they don't really want to.

If the Van Winkles get thin on 10 y/o stock, they'll either release less of it, or find another source. I'm pretty sure they've done both in the past.
Who are they going to source from? Maker's? hehehehe

Brisko
01-20-2012, 11:48
Who are they going to source from? Maker's? hehehehe


Fair point but it did get me wondering what 10 y/o Maker's might taste like.

Parkersback
01-20-2012, 12:05
Fair point but it did get me wondering what 10 y/o Maker's might taste like.

Sign me up for Maker's Centennial (10 Yr, 100 proof).

Beer&Bourbon
01-20-2012, 13:05
To continue the derailing of this thread...

On the distillery tour I attempted to get a sip of the barrel proof expression, but (having already taken a sip of the white dog) our tour guide wouldn't let anyone in my group hold the glass of barrel proof Maker's. Then he disposed of it after talking about it. :hot:

T Comp
01-20-2012, 13:39
Sign me up for Maker's Centennial (10 Yr, 100 proof).


Yep that would be a tasty one. Under 100 proof wheaters, all of them, creates enough lack of taste for me that I find it hard to be that interested in them. Fine as pre dinner sippers but that's about it...the Binny's Weller (really 14) the one exception.

wadewood
01-20-2012, 16:20
bought a handle of OWA and 1L size of WSR, both old label style this afternoon. The new dusties....

greens
01-20-2012, 23:52
To continue the derailing of this thread...

On the distillery tour I attempted to get a sip of the barrel proof expression, but (having already taken a sip of the white dog) our tour guide wouldn't let anyone in my group hold the glass of barrel proof Maker's. Then he disposed of it after talking about it. :hot:

That would have called for a citizen's arrest.

fishnbowljoe
01-20-2012, 23:58
We laugh...but, what will it be called since it is has always been "Weller 12"? Taking this discussion a step further, what are the chances the label will be be ditched altogether? Otherwise, why would they market two (2) NAS 90 proofers in WSR and what is now known as Weller 12? IIRC, WSR has been around a lot longer and is much more well established than the Weller 12 label.

Don't forget the discontinued Weller Centennial. Maybe that's one reason they're keeping the Weller 12 around. Food for thought.

Old Lamplighter
01-21-2012, 01:41
Don't forget the discontinued Weller Centennial. Maybe that's one reason they're keeping the Weller 12 around. Food for thought.

Very good thought...let's hope you have something there.

Neat
01-21-2012, 02:07
bought a handle of OWA and 1L size of WSR, both old label style this afternoon. The new dusties....

I was also thinking about picking up some old label Frankfort owa and wsr. Still plentiful but...:rolleyes:

Young Blacksmith
01-21-2012, 06:44
I was also thinking about picking up some old label Frankfort owa and wsr. Still plentiful but...:rolleyes:

I don't bother with the old label Frankfort OWA anymore, unless it's from the '09 or earlier than '04ish. The new stuff is just so good!

Old silver label Weller 12 is a totally different story, I grab them whenever I can.

Bigspur2011
01-21-2012, 17:17
There is plenty of WSR with the 7 year label here in SC. But writing that OWA with or without the year statement is just a better juice.

dridge11
01-24-2012, 12:08
I popped a WSR7 and for a 90 proofer, it packs some nice spicey notes. I really liked it a great deal. Had the Weller 12 right after...really nice, but not sure I liked it any more than the 7.

gblick
01-25-2012, 07:19
I saw some of the NAS WSR on the shelf today right next to some with the AS. It's a shame that we can no longer be certain that the WSR (and especially the OWA) is aged at least 7 years.

BBQ+Bourbon
02-08-2012, 09:00
They could alway leave Weller 12 alone and just move it up market and price it as a premium for those willing to pay more for the age statement.

Gosh, what's keeping Weller 12 from a spot in the Antique Collection?

I don't love the stuff, but maybe I'll buy a few handles this afternoon while they are still $38 at the local grocer.

Parkersback
02-08-2012, 09:28
Gosh, what's keeping Weller 12 from a spot in the Antique Collection?

About 15 proof points is all, I'm afraid.