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Josh
01-20-2012, 14:04
Something weird on the newest supplemental Michigan liquor list this month (yes I know half my new threads are about stuff on the state list:rolleyes: ). Wild Turkey Rye 101 has been removed and an 81 proof Wild Turkey Rye had been added. Has a new 81 proof version been released or is it switching to 81 proof or is this a mistake? Anybody seen this mysterious WTR 81?

ethangsmith
01-20-2012, 15:42
I hope this is a mistake. The WT rye at 101 is perfection.

jburlowski
01-20-2012, 17:06
101 rye + more water = higher profits

cowdery
01-20-2012, 17:34
I haven't heard anything. I hope it's a mistake. For one thing, they already have RR rye at 90 proof. It also seems like an unlikely move. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Beer&Bourbon
01-20-2012, 17:50
This is probably just a mistake. I imagine it's the 81 proof bourbon that's replacing the 80 proof. I imagine (and hope) someone just messed up. If not, I'll be buying a case of the WT 101 Rye, which I think is damn fine whiskey.

White Dog
01-21-2012, 17:49
Josh, you just sent me on a hoarding trip.

ethangsmith
01-22-2012, 06:07
I'll start hoarding too if there is a change in proof. I'll wipe out all the local state stores!

Potbanger
01-24-2012, 14:58
Has anyone contacted WT?

Josh
01-24-2012, 16:05
Has anyone contacted WT?

D'oh. That would be the obvious thing to do, wouldn't it?

Just posted on their FB page.

Josh
02-20-2012, 07:15
No response from WT as of yet and an 81 proof WT Rye is still listed in Michigan.

White Dog
02-20-2012, 10:14
I just heard a rumor that WT RYE101 is indeed going away in order to move the focus towards RR Rye. Did not hear anything about a WT Rye 81, but in any event I think this is bad news.

I recently obtained a dusty bottle of RR101, and am amazed by how much better it is than the 90pr. And now, my dusty WT Rye 101 will also blow away the 90pr.

If this is true, it's quite a sad day.:hot:

Brisko
02-20-2012, 10:37
I just heard a rumor that WT RYE101 is indeed going away in order to move the focus towards RR Rye. Did not hear anything about a WT Rye 81, but in any event I think this is bad news.

I recently obtained a dusty bottle of RR101, and am amazed by how much better it is than the 90pr. And now, my dusty WT Rye 101 will also blow away the 90pr.

If this is true, it's quite a sad day.:hot:

Interesting. I would have thought that they sell 3 or 4 times as much of the 101 rye over Russel's Reserve.

soad
02-20-2012, 13:22
A completely unscientific online review of the state stores in my county show only half have WTRye and those that do are showing low stock. Every store usually has at least 8-10 bottles listed. :bigeyes: Given Rye's growing popularity, this could just be a blip on the radar....that being said, I'm headed to the store.

c2walker
02-20-2012, 21:39
Just checked the NC ABC price list and WT Rye 81 has taken the place of 101. Time to go pick up a couple bottles of the 101...

soad
02-21-2012, 02:38
Just checked the NC ABC price list and WT Rye 81 has taken the place of 101. Time to go pick up a couple bottles of the 101...

The PA LCB website now officially lists the WTRye as 81 proof.

ethangsmith
02-21-2012, 03:32
The PA LCB website now officially lists the WTRye as 81 proof.

I'm going to start hoarding!

p_elliott
02-21-2012, 07:29
The WT website still shows it as being 101 proof and the website seems to have been recently up dated. It shows the bottles with the new tops on them.

White Dog
02-21-2012, 09:15
Paul, I just checked the website, and the Rye 101 is shown with an old top, and old label.

fricky
02-21-2012, 10:00
The PALCB has made significant errors in the past. One of the more notable ones concerned their listing for William Larue Weller at an incredibly low price. They were actually referring to Weller Antique.

fricky
02-21-2012, 10:08
Here is another example of questionable listings by the PALCB.
They have 2 listings for Wild Turkey Tradition 14 yr bourbon. Both listings are for 750 ml bottles. One is for 101 proof and the cost is $63.99. The other is for 80 proof and it is $104.09. In addition, it is special order and you must buy 6 bottles.

callmeox
02-21-2012, 10:11
Here is another example of questionable listings by the PALCB.
They have 2 listings for Wild Turkey Tradition 14 yr bourbon. Both listings are for 750 ml bottles. One is for 101 proof and the cost is $63.99. The other is for 80 proof and it is $104.09. In addition, it is special order and you must buy 6 bottles.

Unless PA has placed a call to NC and MI asking for them to update the listing for WT Rye, their past issues don't mean much here.

Enoch
02-21-2012, 10:18
I just talked to the manager of my closest liquor store and he said but could not confirm that the rye was going to 81. So I bought several bottles. Another one bites the dusty.

Josh
02-21-2012, 10:37
Here is another example of questionable listings by the PALCB.
They have 2 listings for Wild Turkey Tradition 14 yr bourbon. Both listings are for 750 ml bottles. One is for 101 proof and the cost is $63.99. The other is for 80 proof and it is $104.09. In addition, it is special order and you must buy 6 bottles.


Unless PA has placed a call to NC and MI asking for them to update the listing for WT Rye, their past issues don't mean much here.

Under most circumstances, I would be with Fricky. When I started this thread, I thought it would be proven to be a mistake fairly quickly. But with three states listing 81 proof WT Rye and Enoch's store owner, it's starting to look like it really is changing.

c2walker
02-21-2012, 10:54
Under most circumstances, I would be with Fricky. When I started this thread, I thought it would be proven to be a mistake fairly quickly. But with three states listing 81 proof WT Rye and Enoch's store owner, it's starting to look like it really is changing.

Decent rye is just getting harder and harder to get. I went out in search of some WT 101 Rye this afternoon...hit 3 stores and came back with 1 bottle. Every store was sold out of RR Rye and Bulleit Rye as well. Only Beam Rye was available (with the exception of the one WT I picked up).

I also forgot to mention that the new 81 proof WT Rye is listed as the same price as the 101 NC. I don't know whether WT made the switch due to financial reasons or strong demand, but either way they're coming out over 20% ahead.

p_elliott
02-21-2012, 10:54
Paul, I just checked the website, and the Rye 101 is shown with an old top, and old label.

Everything else is shown with new new tops and new lables I have not seen the the current WT Rye to see if it has new tops and new lables yet so it may be current I don't know.

CorvallisCracker
02-21-2012, 13:10
Here you go, link to the COLA

https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=11341001000082

White Dog
02-21-2012, 13:24
Well that pretty much does it.:hot:

Not a fan of Baby Saz, and while I like RittBIB, it's not very Rye-y to me. WT101Rye was my favorite go-to, everyday Rye.

Plus, Ritt and Baby Saz are never on the shelf. I could always find Turkey.

Good luck hunting.

callmeox
02-21-2012, 13:30
I can't attach images from my phone but I sent a pic of the new label to Josh. Looks like I wasnt the only one searching the COLA site. :grin:

White Dog
02-21-2012, 13:42
What a depressing thread. Thanks a lot, Josh!

Josh
02-21-2012, 13:49
What a depressing thread. Thanks a lot, Josh!

You're welcome! :grin: :grin: :grin:

And thanks to the legions searching thru the COLA website.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

cowdery
02-21-2012, 14:04
Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.

soad
02-21-2012, 14:36
Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.

That is the BEST news I have heard all day! I just bought two bottles and was going to bunker them....now I get to crack one open! Happy days are here again!

The Boozer
02-21-2012, 14:36
Unfortunately Chuck, it has been dropped in Michigan.
Not sure how difficult it is to get back on the list but the State usually doesn't drop and add a product due to limited allocation. Certainly if demand was up, they would keep it on the list.
Down the road, I hope I am proven wrong.
Tim

CorvallisCracker
02-21-2012, 14:43
Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.

Printing labels so fast that there's no time to stop the presses and switch to the new one, and thus no point in submitting a COLA application for that?

Because if you search the TTB database, from 15 March 2011 (application for the new 101 bourbon label) through today, there isn't one for the rye in 101 proof. Just the 81.

Maybe they're telling the truth...but I'm picking up a few bottles on the way home anyway...

ethangsmith
02-21-2012, 16:53
Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.

Hopefully distributors are told of the difference and don't just start accidentally ordering 81 in the place of 101 as it seems PA is already doing. I REALLY hope 101 does stay around!!!!

CorvallisCracker
02-21-2012, 17:15
Maybe they're telling the truth...


I remind myself that this is the same outfit that, in 1992, pulled the switcheroo:

Years 8 Old

to

Old No. 8 Brand

They fooled me once. Shame on 'em. They won't fool me twice.



but I'm picking up a few bottles on the way home anyway...

Store had six, I bought 'em all. Even if they don't discontinue the 101 at least I've avoided the inevitable price increase.

White Dog
02-21-2012, 17:21
Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.

I hope you're right. The Midwest Campari rep was quoted saying 101 Rye is being dropped completely. He stated this at Distill America in Madison on Sat. night.

bad_scientist
02-21-2012, 17:49
It's completely disappeared in some stores here, almost overnight. Hoarding?

How have the most recent bottles been? I heard there was some variability.

Brisko
02-22-2012, 07:15
Maybe I'm reading the pricing wrong, but it looks like the MI minimum for the 81 is the same as the 101 was ($20.96). That's BS.

For what it's worth my regular haunts have been out of stock on the 101 for a couple of weeks. This isn't unusual around here: WT Rye always seems to suffer from supply hiccups. I'll be curious to see if the 81 shows up in its place, and what the pricing will be.

To bad_scientist: in my opinion the rye does vary but not as much as the 101 bourbon does. Not that the bourbon is bad, but some bottles are really good where others are just okay.

The Boozer
02-22-2012, 08:48
[QUOTE=Brisko;275977]Maybe I'm reading the pricing wrong, but it looks like the MI minimum for the 81 is the same as the 101 was ($20.96). That's BS.

My understanding is the State tends to set the price, usually based on the product's or company's popularity and potential sales volume, hence Beam prices tend to be higher than many other states and less well known products tend toward the lower end of the range.
Popularity is also why we have every available flavored Beam product known to mankind and limited HH products.

cowdery
02-22-2012, 10:11
Control state listing is always a problem. The states limit how many slots each company gets and sometimes a company has to drop something to get something else in.

As for whether or not they're really keeping the 101, by 'official' I mean I got the information from a Campari spokesperson. When they tell me something unequivocal and what they tell me makes sense, I tend to believe it.

In their zeal to get people to order the 81, some reps may be bad-mouthing the 101. Also (and we see this here all the time) people tend to believe things they get into their heads despite copious evidence to the contrary.

They would be nuts to drop the 101. First, that proof point is a Wild Turkey trademark. They're acknowledging that with the 81 (rather than 80), so it's clear they get it. Second, there would be no reason to drop the 101. You don't drop a product that's selling well and growing. They've got enough stock. They don't have to rob Peter to pay Paul.

I worried a little when Campari bought Turkey and their U.S. arm, which primarily handles Skyy Vodka, took over. I was afraid they wouldn't know enough about bourbon. But they're doing well, they waited a couple years before doing anything, and now they're making all the right moves. Clearly, they're making a lot more spirit in their shiny new distillery and they're making sure that, as it matures, they'll have a market for it.

I'm sure Jimmy and Eddie are keeping them on the straight and narrow too.

CorvallisCracker
02-22-2012, 10:24
Even if they don't discontinue the 101 at least I've avoided the inevitable price increase.

Plus, I like the old (i.e., current) label better.

soad
02-22-2012, 10:55
Control state listing is always a problem. The states limit how many slots each company gets and sometimes a company has to drop something to get something else in.



Am I correct to assume that some states (Pennsylvania?) will conceivably only carry the 81 and not the 101? If so, that is very disappointing, but far better than the 101 completely going away.

cowdery
02-22-2012, 11:29
Am I correct to assume that some states (Pennsylvania?) will conceivably only carry the 81 and not the 101? If so, that is very disappointing, but far better than the 101 completely going away.

Anything is possible.

ethangsmith
02-22-2012, 17:32
Already started wiping out all the 101 rye in the Lancaster area. I was able to scrounge up 3 bottles so far this evening. Over the next few days, I plan to cut a swath of bottle hoarding several counties wide.

Enoch
02-24-2012, 15:12
WHile SC is not a control state, all liquor must go through one of several "approved" whole-sellers and they have limits on how much they can bring in so they may drop the 101 since they plan to offer the 81. I went ahead and bought a case. If it is still available then I still have it and it won't go bad. If not it gives me a little life extension....

ethangsmith
02-24-2012, 17:18
Got 6 more bottles tonight. I'm on a spree!

T Comp
02-25-2012, 07:40
Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.

Well I thought Jimmy Russell was just in marketing mode while talking to me about the 101 rye but I guess he wasn't.



Back in April I was talking with Jimmy Russell while holding a bottle of 101 Rye in my hand and he commented that he expects a shortage of the product in the near future. I didn't press him for details but you can take that for whatever its worth.

cowdery
02-25-2012, 15:51
The shortage, of course, will be caused in part by the introduction of 81, but the 81 will produce more bottles from the same amount of whiskey, and I'd be shocked if the price difference reflects the true value difference, so it's a smart way to make a little more money from a scarce resource. "Shortage" doesn't necessarily mean bare shelves. There has been a shortage of Maker's Mark for decades, in as much as they always have more ordered than they can supply, and have to allocate what they have, but do you ever have any trouble finding Maker's Mark?

mrviognier
02-25-2012, 18:08
WHile SC is not a control state, all liquor must go through one of several "approved" whole-sellers and they have limits on how much they can bring in so they may drop the 101 since they plan to offer the 81. I went ahead and bought a case. If it is still available then I still have it and it won't go bad. If not it gives me a little life extension....

Whaaa?

Yes, while the sale of liquor must go through licensed spirits' wholesalers (if that's what you mean by 'approved'), as far as I know, they don't have limits as to how much they can bring in.

Enoch
02-26-2012, 04:28
Whaaa?

Yes, while the sale of liquor must go through licensed spirits' wholesalers (if that's what you mean by 'approved'), as far as I know, they don't have limits as to how much they can bring in.

This is what the RNDC and SWS reps tell me when asked why we don't get certain varieties of Bourbon. The VWFRR had to be sent back this year because it didn't get the proper approval. It was resubmitted and came in after Xmas. Now it may be a question of whether it is cost effective because it is my understanding that everything has to be resubmitted each year and approved with a fee. They have told me there are things they would like to bring in but have not been able to get approval for but this may be to shut me up...

PS. I would live for your products to be available in SC but have not seen it to date.

mrviognier
02-26-2012, 07:59
Sounds like the reps are blowing smoke. They don't need to re-register every year...more than likely the issue is the demand for certain products are outstripping the allocation the state gets by the supplier.

Believe me, we're working on getting SC distribution soon. I practically grew up spending summers in SC (my family has a house on HHI & one up SW on Lake Greenwood), and plan to retire there someday. You'll see High West in SC within the next 6 mos.

ethangsmith
02-26-2012, 12:42
Still cleaning house at the local State Stores. I've been getting some odd looks when I roll up to the counter with 2 arms full of WT rye.....


http://theethansmithblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/wild-turkey-rye.html
My blog post showing my current stash.

p_elliott
02-28-2012, 07:41
Bourbonblog.com has a blog about this with a picture. The blog is more of a WT press release it reads pretty much like the WT 81 did.

Lazer
02-28-2012, 14:50
The shortage, of course, will be caused in part by the introduction of 81, but the 81 will produce more bottles from the same amount of whiskey, and I'd be shocked if the price difference reflects the true value difference, so it's a smart way to make a little more money from a scarce resource. "Shortage" doesn't necessarily mean bare shelves. There has been a shortage of Maker's Mark for decades, in as much as they always have more ordered than they can supply, and have to allocate what they have, but do you ever have any trouble finding Maker's Mark?

Funny you should ask. I live in NYC. I went into a big store last night that does a lot of volume, less focus on variety. They usually have 4 or five bourbons, MM included, either 1L or handles. Anyway, last night, all they had was JD and JB. They said they should have MM by thursday. I wasn't worried because I'm in NYC where we have almost everything available, I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But even here I haven't seen the WT rye 101 lately. Hmmm... I'll be right back. I just have to go check something.....

Josh
02-28-2012, 15:53
Bourbonblog.com has a blog about this with a picture. The blog is more of a WT press release it reads pretty much like the WT 81 did.

I haven't read one of his blog entries that didn't read like a press release.

weller_tex
03-01-2012, 07:35
This thread was scary..until I finally felt reassured by Chuck Cowdery that my beloved WT Rye 101 was safe. I will give the new 81 proof a try too.

ethangsmith
03-01-2012, 14:31
I'm still scared. To me, making the 101 rye scarce is like trying to find a Pappy 20 to a Van Winkle addict. There is never enough around!

StraightBoston
03-01-2012, 14:50
Bad news, kids: according to Eddie Russell (technically a Campari spokesperson, but with perhaps a bit more authority) the WT101 rye is going away to be replaced by 81 proof -- and he is in on the change. Jimmy was standing next to him as he told us at Julio's in MA last night.

He acknowledged that it would be unpopular but asked us to taste it before complaining.

My take on the rationale is similar to their explanation for the WT81: they believe that they need a lower-proof offering -- primarily for bars and "younger generation" switchers from lighter spirits -- but they are using older whiskey than the four-years-and-a-day of the WT80 bourbon and today's WT101 rye.

ethangsmith
03-01-2012, 18:16
Looks like I need to ratchet up the hoarding! I somehow knew this was coming.

Brisko
03-01-2012, 19:48
they believe that they need a lower-proof offering -- primarily for bars and "younger generation" switchers from lighter spirits -- but they are using older whiskey than the four-years-and-a-day of the WT80 bourbon and today's WT101 rye.

To hell with the younger generation-- to which I belong. :hot: These are the same kids who are making Red Gag successful.

Talk about diluting your brand....

Virus_Of_Life
03-01-2012, 21:44
To hell with the younger generation-- to which I belong. :hot: These are the same kids who are making Red Gag successful.

Talk about diluting your brand....

I think the writing was on the wall as mr. cracker pointed out with them not redoing the packaging for the 101, but did for everything else. It was obvious, regardless of the rhetoric.

I've been saying it for a long time, Wild Turkey has lost most of my respect. They have put out some of the best American Whiskey ever in my opinion, with some of the WTKS Pewter top and dark brown tops being up there with the best Stitzel Weller and others, but this is the last straw. All respect gone. It will have to be earned back.

I cannot possibly believe that their stocks are so low they have to water things down and drop ages so extreme that all is left is over priced whiskey.

Makes me glad I am drinking far more Scotch than Bourbon/Rye these days, but WT Rye was still one of my favorite go to drinks with beer.

CorvallisCracker
03-02-2012, 11:08
I think the writing was on the wall as mr. cracker pointed out with them not redoing the packaging for the 101, but did for everything else. It was obvious, regardless of the rhetoric.


Yes, it was.


Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.
:slappin:

The lesson here: actions speak louder than words.

(admittedly Eddie Russell's words on the subject sealed the question)

So, anyway, I've laid in a supply of six bottles (plus I have one already open, 'bout half full). These will last me for quite a while, because I use the WT only for the occasional cocktail (my sippin' ryes being Saz 18, VWFRR, and HW Rendezvous).

Now, as for the whiskey referenced in the thread title, I plan to buy a bottle. If it maintains the WT rye flavor profile, I'll always keep one around.

Two summers ago, I introduced four friends (two couples) to the Sazerac cocktail. One of these is someone who never stops at just one of anything she likes. Adding a dash of 120 proof absinthe to 101 proof whiskey makes for a pretty potent drink, and 2+ of these is a lot of alcohol. So I've been using baby Saz for these, and wishing for a decent (read non JB/OO) lower proof rye.

So I have a requirement for a lower proof rye, and am hoping the WT 81 fits.

StraightNoChaser
03-02-2012, 11:25
The beauty of a high ABV spirits is the ability to proof it down however you please, IMO

CorvallisCracker
03-02-2012, 11:30
The beauty of a high ABV spirits is the ability to proof it down however you please, IMO

Doing that in front of your guest is bad form. :skep:

Plus, it wouldn't be Kentucky branch water! :cool:

StraightBoston
03-02-2012, 12:34
Doing that in front of your guest is bad form. :skep:

Plus, it wouldn't be Kentucky branch water! :cool:

In the case of the Sazerac, you could just be liberal in the amount of water needed to dissolve a sugar cube (but I use Ritt BIB and rich simple syrup in my Sazeracs, so I'm not much help.)

My takeaway from Eddie Russell's talk was that they're betting that more people will come to the brand at lower proof than they will lose even if everyone who complained left (but where would they go, given that the Ritt's availability is about the same as Pappy?) -- and if they use older juice to maintain the profile, they might even keep enough of the WT101 complainers. Then again, maybe that's why Beam introduced the Knob Creek Rye now...

(I also got the sense that the calculus didn't hold for WT101 bourbon -- they'd be in trouble if they dropped that!)

CorvallisCracker
03-02-2012, 13:19
...I use...rich simple syrup in my Sazeracs...


So do I. I always mix up some before a party. Useful for lots of different cocktails.



..so I'm not much help.


That's okay. I still like you anyway. :grin:



My takeaway from Eddie Russell's talk was that they're betting that more people will come to the brand at lower proof than they will lose even if everyone who complained left (but where would they go, given that the Ritt's availability is about the same as Pappy?) -- and if they use older juice to maintain the profile, they might even keep enough of the WT101 complainers.

Sounds reasonable.



Then again, maybe that's why Beam introduced the Knob Creek Rye now...


There may be something to that. Checking the oh-so-useful TTB COLA database, I see the WT 81 label was approved on 8 July 2011, and the label for the KC rye submitted on 4 October 2011 (I'm sure the major distilleries monitor the thing to see what their competitors have in the pipeline).



(I also got the sense that the calculus didn't hold for WT101 bourbon -- they'd be in trouble if they dropped that!)

Fer sure. 101 proof is integral to the whole WT bourbon mythos.

Brisko
03-02-2012, 13:28
In the case of the Sazerac, you could just be liberal in the amount of water needed to dissolve a sugar cube (but I use Ritt BIB and rich simple syrup in my Sazeracs, so I'm not much help.)


So do I. I always mix up some before a party. Useful for lots of different cocktails.


not to threadjack, but how "rich" do you make your syrup? More than 1:1, I gather?

CorvallisCracker
03-02-2012, 13:45
not to threadjack, but how "rich" do you make your syrup? More than 1:1, I gather?

1.5:1 sugar:water

StraightBoston
03-02-2012, 14:03
not to threadjack,
We're way past that!


but how "rich" do you make your syrup? More than 1:1, I gather?


1.5:1 sugar:water

I actually do 2:1, and 1:1 for the "regular". I also have some packets of gum syrup that I bring back from Japan for use in really old-timey cocktails (though I'm not convinced I can really tell the difference...)

ThomasH
03-02-2012, 17:52
I bought 4 bottles of WT101 rye on closeout at 17.00 each. It was a special order item here so you don't see much of it around here!

Thomas

Kalessin
03-02-2012, 20:26
Bad news, kids: according to Eddie Russell (technically a Campari spokesperson, but with perhaps a bit more authority) the WT101 rye is going away to be replaced by 81 proof -- and he is in on the change. Jimmy was standing next to him as he told us at Julio's in MA last night.

He acknowledged that it would be unpopular but asked us to taste it before complaining.

My take on the rationale is similar to their explanation for the WT81: they believe that they need a lower-proof offering -- primarily for bars and "younger generation" switchers from lighter spirits -- but they are using older whiskey than the four-years-and-a-day of the WT80 bourbon and today's WT101 rye.

Thank you.

I'm sad to hear this. There's nothing like taking a reasonably affordable, steady, long running product, and watering it down in hopes of catching some of the Grey Goose/pseudo-tini/fancy bottle and label market.

Luckily, I can pick up a few bottles of WTR101 as there's some in the stores around the Boston area.

I'll compare it with the new WTR81 to see the changes, but I'm fairly sure I'll end up preferring the 101, as it makes a great Manhattan.

Brisko
03-02-2012, 21:04
My take on the rationale is similar to their explanation for the WT81: they believe that they need a lower-proof offering -- primarily for bars and "younger generation" switchers from lighter spirits -- but they are using older whiskey than the four-years-and-a-day of the WT80 bourbon and today's WT101 rye.

There is something about this that has been bothering me for a while. We know that the supply of the 101 rye was tight, and they didn't make a ton of it. Presumably the majority of their rye production was dumped and bottled at 4 years and a day; the rest was set aside to age 2 more years for Russell's Reserve. But if I'm understanding this right, they are claiming that the 81 will have some older stock mingled in? Where is it coming from? Are they stealing from the Russell's Reserve stocks? (Maybe, that product never seems to disappear from the shelves.) I just find it a little suspect that considering the trouble they had keeping the 101 rye on the shelf, that they all of a sudden have enough older barrels lying around to change the profile appreciably.:skep:

My guess is that even though the proof drop would allow them to bottle a lot more whiskey without increasing production, that they won't. Assuming they're telling the truth about using some older stock in the 81, my guess is that the surplus they gain from the proof reduction is going to get set aside for further aging.

I don't understand what WT is doing. Kentucky Spirit seems to be getting younger and younger. Rare Breed is still good but the older batches blow the new out of the water. Likewise the 101 is good relative to the competition but it doesn't compare to the 8 year old. Then they left us scratching our heads with the proof reduction on Russell's Reserve... and now the rye (which I don't think has been all that good lately anyway). I'm not typically a sour grapes type of person but I'm perplexed. I'll try the 81 when it comes out but it's going to have to be a lot better than the 101 was to get me to buy more than one bottle.

By the way, thanks for the response, Scott and Kevin, on the syrup. Once my basement bar is up and running I need to start experimenting with cocktails again and I prefer syrup to cubes generally.

mosugoji64
03-02-2012, 22:35
I'm not a huge WT fan, but the 101 rye is a mighty fine whiskey. I don't understand the desire to cater to a different market when the market for rye is very small anyway. I hope the 81 is good, but still think losing 101 is a bad idea.

The Boozer
03-03-2012, 09:46
I'm not a huge WT fan, but the 101 rye is a mighty fine whiskey.

To parallel the fate of WT101, WT101 WAS a mighty fine whiskey. The last bottle I had of WT101 with the new label was young and hot. WT101 used to have 4-6-8 year old stock. (that what was listed on the old web site.) Now the "old" stock that has been set aside for Eddie's WT81. I suspect they are following the same game plan with WTR-101. Today, they are dumping the WTR81 with the "older stock" of rye that use to be used in WTR101. Eventually down the road, both WT81 and WTR81 will be made up almost exclusively of young whiskey, in the 4 year old range. They won't get rid of WT101 but it will be made up mostly of young whiskey. I have little faith in Eddie.

Josh
03-03-2012, 11:34
I'm not going to disagree with my esteemed collagues about the present state of WT's Bourbon and Rye, but I think it is worth remembering that WT has just completed a big expanision of its distilleryand is in the process of expanding its warehouse capacity as well. So maybe a few years down the line, the age of what is going into their bottles will get back up to what it once was.

CorvallisCracker
03-03-2012, 11:55
By the way, thanks for the response, Scott and Kevin, on the syrup. Once my basement bar is up and running I need to start experimenting with cocktails again and I prefer syrup to cubes generally.

I had to move up from 1:1 because of the way I make Mojitos, which is with 2oz rum rather than 1.25. If you use the normal 1 tbs of sugar (the amount of sugar in 1 fluid oz of 1:1 syrup) then they come out too dry.

I tried going to 2:1 with the syrup but because the ambient temp in our house is usually below 70 degrees, sugar precipitates out.

Another thing I do when making syrup destined for Mojitos is to toss in a handful of crushed mint leaves after stirring in the sugar and killing the heat. I let them steep for 20-30 minutes.

Brisko
03-03-2012, 14:14
I'm not going to disagree with my esteemed collagues about the present state of WT's Bourbon and Rye, but I think it is worth remembering that WT has just completed a big expanision of its distilleryand is in the process of expanding its warehouse capacity as well. So maybe a few years down the line, the age of what is going into their bottles will get back up to what it once was.

Let's hope so. But it sure seems like they're going about it all wrong. It's not like there haven't been plenty of industry examples in recent history that they could look to. For instance, the Knob Creek "shortage" a couple years ago. Beam could have gone NAS, or to 80 proof, or even allocated it, but instead they decided to just wait till the next batch was ready, and to boot, create an ad campaign around it. Seems like the KC brand is doing okay.:rolleyes: On the other side of the coin I think a lot of us are still pissed off about Eagle Rare, and more recently the younger Wellers. Now I realize that the enthusiast segment doesn't drive the market as a whole, but consider this: scarcity has never hurt a brand in the long run.

Let that sink in again. Scarcity whether through shortage or allocation, doesn't hurt a brand's image. If managed properly, it does the opposite. Think of all the brands that we go nuts over on these boards. How many of them are limited editions or hard to find? And it's not just the Staggs and Van Winkles. Look at Maker's, they're the textbook example of how to build a brand with limited production.

The most apt example is Rittenhouse. The supply is extremely limited, and like WT, Heaven Hill has just ramped up production back in-house. But rather than replace the BiB completely, they managed through the shortages, even making the 80 proof version 3 years old. I don't think that hurt them much because the BiB was always their flagship rye. And scarcity certainly hasn't hurt it's popularity. I think I can probably find a 3 or 4 editions of the Parker's Heritage easier than I can find Ritt BiB.

That's what's so baffling about what WT is doing here. They have a chance to build up the brand through scarcity and instead they're diluting it (literally).

But good luck to them. I hope they do better with the cocktail crowd than Beam did.:grin:

clingman71
03-03-2012, 15:42
I'm not the biggest rye fan, but VWFRR & Vintage 21 rye have begun to sway me. I bought a bottle of Ritt BIB for my son after reading all of the glowing reviews. We had a pour on his birthday and I have to say, I'm not a big fan. After reading this thread, I found myself looking at the WT today at my local store. Two bottles of WT rye 101 on the shelf for $17. I took a chance and bought both. I have to say that I enjoy this rye immensely. To me, there is no comparison to the Ritt. Going to have to find some more now!

c2walker
03-03-2012, 21:50
I'm not the biggest rye fan, but VWFRR & Vintage 21 rye have begun to sway me. I bought a bottle of Ritt BIB for my son after reading all of the glowing reviews. We had a pour on his birthday and I have to say, I'm not a big fan. After reading this thread, I found myself looking at the WT today at my local store. Two bottles of WT rye 101 on the shelf for $17. I took a chance and bought both. I have to say that I enjoy this rye immensely. To me, there is no comparison to the Ritt. Going to have to find some more now!

My thoughts exactly. Love Vintage 21, VWFRR, (and Saz 18). Like WT 101. Not so fond of my bottle of Ritt BIB. I have learned that the Ritt can be variable though (like most whiskey I suppose, but this was drastically different). I tried a slightly older (in terms of production date) bottle of Ritt at a friends place that was very, very good. What I'm asking myself now is do I like WT 101 rye enough to go buy a case....Probably not...

Josh
03-03-2012, 22:58
Tonight I talked to my pal Sandy who is the owner of a local cocktail bar called The Oakland. I asked him if he was enraged that the 101 had been replaced with an 81, at least in Michigan. He said yes. The extra punch it has at 101 makes it great for cocktails, in his opinion.

bad_scientist
03-04-2012, 07:12
My thoughts exactly. Love Vintage 21, VWFRR, (and Saz 18). Like WT 101. Not so fond of my bottle of Ritt BIB. I have learned that the Ritt can be variable though (like most whiskey I suppose, but this was drastically different). I tried a slightly older (in terms of production date) bottle of Ritt at a friends place that was very, very good. What I'm asking myself now is do I like WT 101 rye enough to go buy a case....Probably not...

I thought I liked the Ritt a lot because it tasted great when I sneaked swigs from the bottle while making Manhattans for the wife. On its own, though, in a glass, I was not a fan. Musty corn, not enough spice... That said, I also have noticed a lot of variability.

ethangsmith
03-04-2012, 08:31
Bought 3 more bottles last night. I'm up to 18 in the bunker now.....

bad_scientist
03-04-2012, 08:43
Did you guys see the press release posted on bourbonblog? Here's an excerpt:

The smooth taste and warm smokiness of Wild Turkey 81 Rye is born from its natural aging process in American oak barrels with the deepest number 4 or “alligator” char. The final product is a kick in the pants mingling of whiskies aged 4 and 5 years — more than other major Rye whiskies in the same category.

Hah! They kept promising that the 81 is from older stock, for a deeper flavor. So now we know that the "aged" stock is exactly 1 year older, and even then this supremely old, dignified 5 year is just mixed in with the same young stock we get now. Go WT!

edit: Sorry, meant to say "Screw WT!"

ethangsmith
03-04-2012, 09:25
Aren't Rittenhouse BIB and baby Saz (Who WT is trying to compete with) both at least 6 years old???? Only Pikesville and the Beam ryes are 3 and 4 years old. Idiots. Why has everything American whiskey become all about marketing and "the younger crowd"?

jburlowski
03-04-2012, 10:46
Aren't Rittenhouse BIB and baby Saz (Who WT is trying to compete with) both at least 6 years old???? Only Pikesville and the Beam ryes are 3 and 4 years old. Idiots. Why has everything American whiskey become all about marketing and "the younger crowd"?

Rit BiB is 4 yo.

There have been differing claims about Baby Saz but nothing definite from BT. I don't drink a lot of the Saz but my impression is that it has been trending younger.

ethangsmith
03-04-2012, 12:59
Interesting. I have always been under the impression that Rittenhouse was 5-6yo rye. Hence the DSP-354 stuff still being around eventhough Bernheim started distilling the Rittenhouse several years ago. It also tastes like a 5-6yo rye. Again, all my assumptions though. Kudos for Heaven Hill making a 4 year rye taste so AWESOME. As for the Sazerac, I had seen somewhere where they listed it as 6 years old. This did confuse me as it did seem a bit younger and grainier than 6 years old. Not that it was bad, but it had less barrel flavors than I would expect from something of that age. I will buy a bottle of the 81 proof junk just for comparisons sake, but after doing a bit of comparisons from the 80, 81 and 101 bourbons versus the 101 rye, I've got a good idea of what this weasel pee is going to taste like. It will be too wet and uncomfortably bitter, not like the dry heat and strong cocoa flavors of the 101.

Josh
03-04-2012, 15:38
I've got a good idea of what this weasel pee is going to taste like.

How do you know what weasel pee tastes like?:skep: :lol:

White Dog
03-04-2012, 15:57
Aren't Rittenhouse BIB and baby Saz (Who WT is trying to compete with) both at least 6 years old???? Only Pikesville and the Beam ryes are 3 and 4 years old. Idiots. Why has everything American whiskey become all about marketing and "the younger crowd"?

Every young, hipster mixologist I know cherishes HIGHER proof whiskeys because they work better in cocktails. This spin coming from Turkey about younger drinkers and "mixing" makes no sense. It's purely an economic move to stretch the supply and charge the same amount, IMHO.

Josh
03-04-2012, 16:15
Every young, hipster mixologist I know cherishes HIGHER proof whiskeys because they work better in cocktails. This spin coming from Turkey about younger drinkers and "mixing" makes no sense. It's purely an economic move to stretch the supply and charge the same amount, IMHO.

Sandy would agree! They have used WTR 101 in several of their weekend punches and in several of their regular cocktails.

Rughi
03-04-2012, 16:16
Rit BiB is 4 yo...

I'm not sure that's the case. Maybe that's all they're legally required to put in the bottle, but conventional wisdom is that it's designed to be bottled at about 6 years old. Do you mean a particular blip in time, like when about 3 years ago some bottles suddenly got lighter in color and sharper to the taste?

Roger

ethangsmith
03-04-2012, 16:43
How do you know what weasel pee tastes like?:skep: :lol:

At a previous job, my boss would always pour a cup of coffee from the company coffee maker and complain about how it tastes like weasel pee. I had a cup out of curiosity, and it in fact did taste REALLY bad. So THAT is how I know what weasel pee tastes like (Totally scientific, I know!). I also did do plumbing for a while between jobs so I can also tell you what human byproduct tastes like as well, and the "weasel pee" coffee wasn't too far off.

White Dog
03-04-2012, 17:37
I'm not sure that's the case. Maybe that's all they're legally required to put in the bottle, but conventional wisdom is that it's designed to be bottled at about 6 years old. Do you mean a particular blip in time, like when about 3 years ago some bottles suddenly got lighter in color and sharper to the taste?

Roger

It may have been "designed" to be 6yrs old, but it would seem that Kentucky has really been caught with their pants down in regards to Rye demand. Current RittBIB, while I like it, does not taste 6 years to me.

As for the Baby Saz 6yr age, I keep seeing the same quotes on this site. "I read somewhere..." This is purely a guess, but let me put forth the theory that Baby Saz has not been 6yr for some time. Having tasted Baby Saz releases over the last few years, I think we should put this urban legend to rest.

Baby Saz is 4 years and a day, just like all the other majors' main Ryes. Supply is simply too low. And if you believe that Diageo's Bulleit is 5 to 6 years, I've got a great bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.:grin:

CorvallisCracker
03-05-2012, 08:34
And if you believe that Diageo's Bulleit is 5 to 6 years, I've got a great bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.:grin:

No, no, no, you don't want that old bridge. It's over 100 years old and going to collapse any day now.

I, on the other hand, can offer you an outstanding deal on some south Florida real estate, conveniently located midway between Miami and Everglades City.

cowdery
03-05-2012, 10:13
It may have been "designed" to be 6yrs old, but it would seem that Kentucky has really been caught with their pants down in regards to Rye demand. Current RittBIB, while I like it, does not taste 6 years to me.

As for the Baby Saz 6yr age, I keep seeing the same quotes on this site. "I read somewhere..." This is purely a guess, but let me put forth the theory that Baby Saz has not been 6yr for some time. Having tasted Baby Saz releases over the last few years, I think we should put this urban legend to rest.

Baby Saz is 4 years and a day, just like all the other majors' main Ryes. Supply is simply too low. And if you believe that Diageo's Bulleit is 5 to 6 years, I've got a great bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.:grin:

Agreed. With any NAS, trust your tastebuds and nothing else. If you want to make an age claim, WT, put it on the label.

Brisko
03-05-2012, 10:30
As for the Baby Saz 6yr age, I keep seeing the same quotes on this site. "I read somewhere..." This is purely a guess, but let me put forth the theory that Baby Saz has not been 6yr for some time. Having tasted Baby Saz releases over the last few years, I think we should put this urban legend to rest.

Baby Saz is 4 years and a day, just like all the other majors' main Ryes. Supply is simply too low. And if you believe that Diageo's Bulleit is 5 to 6 years, I've got a great bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.:grin:

Shoot, Josh even started a thread to this effect a while back:grin:. I actually (sort of) disagree on Baby Saz based on the newest bottle I have. It seems more mature than I remember, and more mature than the competition. Of course, any student of the art of Gillmanization realizes that it doesn't take a huge amount of older whiskey to balance out a base of younger stock.

Of course Rittenhouse can't do that because it's BiB... it doesn't taste 6 y/o to me but then again I am no expert.

cowdery
03-05-2012, 14:00
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

Virus_Of_Life
03-05-2012, 14:41
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

I'll hold my breath.

jburlowski
03-05-2012, 14:55
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

So could that be the reason there is a TTB COLA (with the new WT logo) for the 81 rye but not for a 101 rye.

clingman71
03-05-2012, 15:44
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.


If this remains the case then it is most certainly good news. But, there is an SBer who's posts state "it'll never be cheaper than it is today" or something like that. I can't imagine it would return in 2013 for less than it is now, and will probably increase in $$$. I believe I'll stock enough for somewhere between a year and forever.

ethangsmith
03-05-2012, 15:53
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

WOOT! Best news I've heard for a while. Hopefully they get some 101 rollin' in 2013 or 2014. I'm stocked well enough until about 2020 or so.

rocky480
03-05-2012, 16:17
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

OK, so I'm just trying to understand how this will work. Per Eddie Russell's original statement, they are going to use older rye stocks to offset to loss of proof in the new WTR 81. So, presumably, the older stocks (whatever that means) are going to be depleted for WTR 81.

When the shortage of rye improves (presumably meaning there is more 4 YO aged rye available), they'll bring back WTR 101. So, for this to happen, WT needed to ramp up rye production back in 2009 in order to meet this increased demand they correctly expected to see if WTR 101 has a shot of being re-introduced in 2013 (as I'm understanding that they weren't producing enough rye in 2008 in order to meet current demand for WTR 101 in 2012).

So, is my thinking completely off, or does anybody know if WT did in fact increase rye production in 2009? Also, if the production halt is supposed to be temporary, why wasn't the initial statement that WT was bringing out WTR 81 just until they could get sufficient rye stocks to support both products? Sure seems like they created a lot of confusion for such a simple explanation.

timd
03-05-2012, 16:33
"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.


What am I not getting about this quote? Seems that if there is a shortage of rye, they would be UPPING production - rather than saying there's none in production or scheduled?

Is he referring ONLY to bottling (vs. distilling)? If it's bottling, that makes sense - but I wish he would address the distilling questions: did they up the creation of rye in the past few years?

Sounds like hogwash to me - this makes far too much business sense for them to back peddle in to 101 in 12 months (or whatever) given all the other factors...

Just my $.02, but WT has never been good about bringing back GOOD products they've dropped... I'm stocking up for the millennium.

CorvallisCracker
03-05-2012, 17:14
Sure seems like they created a lot of confusion for such a simple explanation.



Sounds like hogwash to me...

Their explanation for why the 8/101 is bottled only for export is equally lame.

Brisko
03-05-2012, 18:55
I've probably said too much on this thread already, but I'm glad I'm not the only one scratching my head.

"We don't have enough of our product to go around, so we're going to divert the existing stock into a watered down version instead of just allocating."

I guess "give 'em the bird" isn't just a marketing slogan, it's a brand management strategy, too.

CaptainQ
03-05-2012, 19:12
I've probably said too much on this thread already, but I'm glad I'm not the only one scratching my head.

"We don't have enough of our product to go around, so we're going to divert the existing stock into a watered down version instead of just allocating."

I guess "give 'em the bird" isn't just a marketing slogan, it's a brand management strategy, too.

Post of the month right there. Thanks!

mosugoji64
03-05-2012, 21:24
I guess "give 'em the bird" isn't just a marketing slogan, it's a brand management strategy, too.

I second the Post-of-the-Month nomination. You should use that as your signature.
:slappin::lol::slappin::lol::slappin:

T Comp
03-05-2012, 21:54
The changeover to 81 proof certainly frosts my ass too but it is what is is...a well strategized and most probably focus group tested business decision. And you can't expect the Russell's as the highest of brand spokespersons to bite the hand that feeds them. I'm sure they loved doing the finger routine as much as we did :bigeyes: .

WT Rye has been below radar even within whatever Rye renaissance has happened. The few stores here that carry it have the same bottles as they did 5 years ago while Ritt and Templeton flew off the shelf. The majority of American whiskey drinkers don't know or care that Wild Turkey made a 101 proof Rye. If Templeton can be a wildly popular allocated Rye at 80 proof...why not Wild Turkey. Most spirits are at 80 proof and unless the macro whiskey world experiences what happened in the beer world is there any need for them to consider enthusiast wishes on lower to mid shelf products. Sad but true...and maybe too, in spite of all the strategy, it will work out as good as (ri)1 did for Beam :grin: .

cigarnv
03-06-2012, 06:17
LOL!!! We will see the WT101 new production on the shelf right after they ship the new release of RR101....

Brisko
03-06-2012, 07:23
Here is the official word.

Wild Turkey Rye 81 proof will be launched in the US, Australia and Japan this year.

Wild Turkey Rye 101 is not being discontinued. In fact, it has surged in popularity, up 20%, and as such is on allocation. That's why it is in short supply in some markets.


Bad news, kids: according to Eddie Russell (technically a Campari spokesperson, but with perhaps a bit more authority) the WT101 rye is going away to be replaced by 81 proof -- and he is in on the change. Jimmy was standing next to him as he told us at Julio's in MA last night.

He acknowledged that it would be unpopular but asked us to taste it before complaining.

My take on the rationale is similar to their explanation for the WT81: they believe that they need a lower-proof offering -- primarily for bars and "younger generation" switchers from lighter spirits -- but they are using older whiskey than the four-years-and-a-day of the WT80 bourbon and today's WT101 rye.


Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

This right here is why companies have PR departments. Figure out what the story is and then stick with it, for crying out loud.


Most spirits are at 80 proof and unless the macro whiskey world experiences what happened in the beer world is there any need for them to consider enthusiast wishes on lower to mid shelf products. Sad but true...and maybe too, in spite of all the strategy, it will work out as good as (ri)1 did for Beam :grin: .

My gut tells me that most of the increase 101 sales were driven by enthusiasts. Based on the highly unscientific sample of this board alone, people seem to prefer the 101 rye to the Russell's Reserve by a wide margin. Campari may see it (the 101) as a lower tier product but I'd be curious to see who's actually buying it.

All right, I'm going to stop with the:deadhorse: now.

Jonny.Applebury
03-06-2012, 11:18
Wild Turkey 81 Rye is on the list of whiskies that will be at booth 52 during Chicago WhiskyFest. Two and half weeks and I'll know if it is worth buying.

cigarnv
03-06-2012, 13:25
I suspect if you take 101 down to 81 PF by adding water you will have a pretty good idea of how the 81 will taste.... at its best...

CorvallisCracker
03-06-2012, 15:27
....at its best...

Aye, there's the rub.

StraightBoston
03-06-2012, 17:45
Here is Eddie Russell's clarification:

"I meant that there is no 101pf rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of rye.

We have 81pf rye out there and allocated what we have available of 101 rye. As the shortage improves, 101 rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

So stock up for a year, not for forever.

I'm still suspicious that there is no TTB COLA application for a new-style rye label at 101 proof.

Is it possible that the allocation is for control states where they are unable to quickly make the switch to 81?

Neat
03-06-2012, 18:55
LOL!!! We will see the WT101 new production on the shelf right after they ship the new release of RR101....

i tend to agree. however, much easier to go keep up production with a 4 yo product vs a 10 yo.

at the end of the day, the majority of the buying public are less informed than the posters on this board and apparently they want lower proof whiskey. and since lower proof whiskey saves the distiller some money...

Neat
03-06-2012, 18:59
to be on the safe side, i got a case + of the 101. got a 10% discount so even using my credit card, i paid $18.99/bottle.

best part of the purchase was that in my "hunt" for the wt rye 101 (went to 5 stores closest to my work and house), i stumbled upon a pvw 20 yo and got it for original msrp. don't know how that baby lasted that long.

BradleyC
03-06-2012, 21:12
I had an interesting experience with WT Rye 101 today. I stopped by one of the larger stores in town. I didn't see any on the shelf so I stopped by the register to have them look at the inventory before I left. The lady that helped me was very nice and helpful. After talking for less than a minute it was clear that she did not have a clue when it came to the world of whiskey, which is more than fine. She asked if I would like to have them order some and I gave her the 20 second version of what happened to explain the 0 btls in inventory and to also avoid placing the special order since that wasn't important to me and would probably be a waste of time anyway.

She looked at me and asked, "how are they going to discontinue the 101 Rye? Isn't 101 proof their thing?"

I asked her, "do you drink WT?" She said, "No, I don't drink whiskey."

We had a moment together.

Even people who aren't WT customers are scratching their heads on this one.

cigarnv
03-07-2012, 03:08
to be on the safe side, i got a case + of the 101. got a 10% discount so even using my credit card, i paid $18.99/bottle.

best part of the purchase was that in my "hunt" for the wt rye 101 (went to 5 stores closest to my work and house), i stumbled upon a pvw 20 yo and got it for original msrp. don't know how that baby lasted that long.

For $18.99 you got the best value in quality rye whiskey today, IMO. If it does re-appear you still made a great buy. Congrats!!!

Enoch
03-07-2012, 05:22
I can say that, as far as I can tell, Columbia SC is out of WT Rye 101. This surprises me because previously it didn't seem to hardly move on the shelf.

Josh
03-07-2012, 06:10
I wrote Campari asking about this whole thing a while back. This was my email:


To: <wildturkeybourbon@qualitycustomercare.com>
cc:
Date: 2/21/2012 2:09:42 PM


Wild Turkey folks,

A few control states have started listing Wild Turkey Rye as 81 proof instead
of 101 proof. Is it really changing or are those just mistakes?

Joshua

This morning I received this email.


Dear Joshua,

Thank you for taking the time to e-mail us about Wild Turkey Rye. There is a Wild Turkey 81 proof but Wild Turkey Rye is 101 proof.

Thank you again for contacting Campari America

Sincerely,

Jodi
Campari America
Consumer Relations

Thanks Jodi.

bonneamie
03-07-2012, 06:51
Wow! Great customer relations, Jodi...

silverfish
03-07-2012, 06:54
I'm still suspicious that there is no TTB COLA application for a new-style rye label at 101 proof.


I was wondering about this as well. I hope that those
of you who monitor the COLAs will let us know when/if
you see a new label.

CorvallisCracker
03-07-2012, 08:14
I was wondering about this as well. I hope that those
of you who monitor the COLAs will let us know when/if
you see a new label.

No problem. I check it once a month just to see what's coming out locally. Here in OR microdistilleries are popping up like mushrooms after a summer rain. An updated list I just received from the OLCC lists 57 (not all of these are actually distilling; a number - such as Big Bottom - are just bottlers of purchased juice).

p_elliott
03-07-2012, 09:15
Wow! Great customer relations, Jodi...

Part of this problem is that is a parent company spokes person trying to answer question for a lot of companies. She can't be in the know on what going on on at all of them and be up to date. If WT would answer THEIR email we wouldn't be having this discusion but WT will not respond to their email and that is why you have to email Campari and get third hand information. :smiley_acbt:

Neat
03-07-2012, 13:56
fwiw, a salesman at one of the major chains in houston told me this week that wt rye 101 was being discontinued, that they sold out and that they will not be getting any more in. he is the person that orders the bourbons and ryes for the store. this doesn't necessarily conflict with the "unavailable for 2012 but back in 2012" but...

better to be safe than sorry.

Neat
03-07-2012, 13:59
For $18.99 you got the best value in quality rye whiskey today, IMO. If it does re-appear you still made a great buy. Congrats!!!

investment in my future. or as my wife puts it, blowing all our money on booze. potato, po-ta-to. :slappin:

i was so focused on bourbons that i neglected ryes for a while and i'm paying for it. LITERALLY. missed out on getting the vintage rye 21 and 23 when i saw them on the shelves :hot:

smokinjoe
03-07-2012, 19:20
I'm not really affected by what appears to be the oncoming demise of WTR, as I really don't drink it. Honestly, I don't drink much current WT product at all. But, I feel for you who like this whiskey, and more importantly, I feel for US. I don't know if it's Campari or Wild Turkey, but they're not doing much to instill faith in US, the "enthusiasts", out here. Besides the one-off Tribute, American Spirit, and Traditions (3 releases in 8 years, BTW), what have they done for US lately? I can't think of a Thing. They don't even seem to be trying, which make me think the worst----they don't even care....about US. The good stuff is being exported, what's left is being reduced in age and proof, the advertising is juvenile, and US don't seem to be part of the program. Really, too bad. While BT, HH, 4R, and even Beam are out trying to bring whiskies to enthusiasts, pushing the envelope, growing the product while still keeping an eye on, and an ear to, US, Turkey does indeed seem, as Brisko so cleverly proclaimed, to be giving US the bird.

Fine. Right back atcha!!

White Dog
03-07-2012, 19:58
I'm not really affected by what appears to be the oncoming demise of WTR, as I really don't drink it. Honestly, I don't drink much current WT product at all. But, I feel for you who like this whiskey, and more importantly, I feel for US. I don't know if it's Campari or Wild Turkey, but they're not doing much to instill faith in US, the "enthusiasts", out here. Besides the one-off Tribute, American Spirit, and Traditions (3 releases in 8 years, BTW), what have they done for US lately? I can't think of a Thing. They don't even seem to be trying, which make me think the worst----they don't even care....about US. The good stuff is being exported, what's left is being reduced in age and proof, the advertising is juvenile, and US don't seem to be part of the program. Really, too bad. While BT, HH, 4R, and even Beam are out trying to bring whiskies to enthusiasts, pushing the envelope, growing the product while still keeping an eye on, and an ear to, US, Turkey does indeed seem, as Brisko so cleverly proclaimed, to be giving US the bird.

Fine. Right back atcha!!

Here here. Glad you said it.

Josh
03-08-2012, 05:15
Well put as usual Joe. This whole thing could have handled much much better, and it seems like WT is turning its back on the enthusiast community.

mosugoji64
03-08-2012, 08:18
Well put as usual Joe. This whole thing could have handled much much better, and it seems like WT is turning its back on the enthusiast community.

Very true. As others have pointed out, if low stocks are the issue then allocation would be the better approach as it has worked well for other distilleries. The way WT has handled this, it appears as a money grab. One would think that with all of their resources, Campari/WT would have a better PR plan in place. But then, maybe they're really not that concerned about US. :rolleyes:

Neat
03-08-2012, 12:39
I'm not really affected by what appears to be the oncoming demise of WTR, as I really don't drink it. Honestly, I don't drink much current WT product at all. But, I feel for you who like this whiskey, and more importantly, I feel for US. I don't know if it's Campari or Wild Turkey, but they're not doing much to instill faith in US, the "enthusiasts", out here. Besides the one-off Tribute, American Spirit, and Traditions (3 releases in 8 years, BTW), what have they done for US lately? I can't think of a Thing. They don't even seem to be trying, which make me think the worst----they don't even care....about US. The good stuff is being exported, what's left is being reduced in age and proof, the advertising is juvenile, and US don't seem to be part of the program. Really, too bad. While BT, HH, 4R, and even Beam are out trying to bring whiskies to enthusiasts, pushing the envelope, growing the product while still keeping an eye on, and an ear to, US, Turkey does indeed seem, as Brisko so cleverly proclaimed, to be giving US the bird.

Fine. Right back atcha!!

THIS. they seem to be focusing purely on volume and profit (i.e., cater to the masses). the others seem to realize (or think) that by getting US excited and getting the press, that their bottom line will improve.

i still like WT. it ain't as good as it used to be. ticking me off that i have to go overseas and worry about packing, quantity and customs to get wt 12yo or wt 8yo.

StraightBoston
03-08-2012, 14:07
THIS. they seem to be focusing purely on volume and profit (i.e., cater to the masses). the others seem to realize (or think) that by getting US excited and getting the press, that their bottom line will improve.

i still like WT. it ain't as good as it used to be. ticking me off that i have to go overseas and worry about packing, quantity and customs to get wt 12yo or wt 8yo.

Can't help but notice that the #1 selling "bourbon" ('cuz the Lincoln County Process doesn't undo anything in the regs) in the world has dropped in proof over the years, never had an age statement, and only sells enthusiast bottles overseas and in duty-free. Wouldn't be surprising if Campari noticed it, too -- isn't the US parent named after neutral spirits in a blue bottle wearing fetish gear? (Different kind of enthusiast...)

I think some of US undervalue the availability of WTKS and WTRB -- whether it was better in the past or not -- and the fact that neither Russell has been rung up on harassment charges.

cowdery
03-08-2012, 17:27
Yes, by 'production' Eddie means dumping and bottling. As for distilling, They're making more rye every year than they did the previous year, as is everyone else. Are they making enough? Only time will tell.

The 101 rye won't entirely disappear in stores, some markets won't notice a shortage at all. This just means that that distillery has put out all that it can for this year. That's the distillery. They don't know how much the distributors and retailers still have. Maybe a lot.

If people get all worked up and buy even more WT rye 101 than they normally would, no one at the distillery or at Campari will be unhappy.

I know this will fall on many deaf ears, but there is nothing weird or sinister here. It's the nature of the aging cycle. The long talked-about rye renaissance is finally showing up in sales.

deathevocation
03-09-2012, 03:14
The 101 Rye is everywhere over here. I'll buy a couple of bottles just in case.

boneuphtoner
03-09-2012, 05:46
The 101 Rye is everywhere over here. I'll buy a couple of bottles just in case.

It WAS everywhere here in Montgomery County MD too, until this thread. :hot:

Just a few stores have a quickly dwindling supply.

I am going to grab myself one last bottle today!

cigarnv
03-09-2012, 07:37
The nice part about the WT 101 Rye is that for $20 a bottle a few stocked in the bunker provide cheap insurance should it not reappear......

clingman71
03-09-2012, 07:47
The nice part about the WT 101 Rye is that for $20 a bottle a few stocked in the bunker provide cheap insurance should it not reappear......


Exactly. I've bought six bottles at $17.25 since this thread took off. Even if it never leaves the shelves here,at that price, no harm, no foul.

weller_tex
03-09-2012, 08:47
Yes, by 'production' Eddie means dumping and bottling. As for distilling, They're making more rye every year than they did the previous year, as is everyone else. Are they making enough? Only time will tell.

The 101 rye won't entirely disappear in stores, some markets won't notice a shortage at all. This just means that that distillery has put out all that it can for this year. That's the distillery. They don't know how much the distributors and retailers still have. Maybe a lot.

If people get all worked up and buy even more WT rye 101 than they normally would, no one at the distillery or at Campari will be unhappy.

I know this will fall on many deaf ears, but there is nothing weird or sinister here. It's the nature of the aging cycle. The long talked-about rye renaissance is finally showing up in sales.

Considering your credentials, gonna go with your info and not panic. Sometimes I think it is forgotten that in order to keep supplying us with great whiskey, these companies have to make a profit first of all.

timd
03-09-2012, 12:07
Regardless of if/when it comes back - it's hard to find now and getting harder.

WT Rye is my "go to" - has been for a few years now, and I'm very disturbed by them dropping a product that "has grown 20% in the last year."

Sometimes you gotta do the wrong thing for the right reason - I get it, it's business first, but none of the other majors have "damaged" their products the way WT does to meet "perceived" consumer need/interest.

What would the enthusiast community say if 4R or Pappy 15 "dropped proof to meet production"? It's an absolute crime, IMHO, to screw over a perfectly good, and growing, product (and its consumers) in favor of trying to please a different segment (and make no mistake - the target for an 81 proof rye is very different than a 101 proof rye). Even baby Saz is 90. I can certainly see offering both (like OWA and WSR), but eschewing one over the other? Pitiful. Plus, not like they are balancing against an age statement (like the Wellers).

It may be good business, but it's crappy management and bad judgement for brand integrity - and WT, despite being a long time fave of mine - has shown repeatedly to not have a clue about how to build loyalty with enthusiasts. Hell, even Jim Beam cares more about brand image than WT appears to...

<rant complete>

White Dog
03-09-2012, 12:41
Considering your credentials, gonna go with your info and not panic. Sometimes I think it is forgotten that in order to keep supplying us with great whiskey, these companies have to make a profit first of all.

No one is saying they shouldn't be profitable.

For example, what if Campari released a limited amount of RR10yr at the old 101proof? They could charge more that the 90 proof expression in order to stay profitable, and with all the fans of the RR101 dusty on this board, they would sell out immediately.

But that's never gonna happen.:rolleyes:

PaulO
03-09-2012, 13:49
Does anyone here like the RR 90 proof Rye? I tried it once because I like WT 101 Rye. My impression of the RR Rye was; nothing wrong with it, but sort of bland, definitely overpriced, not as good as WT 101 Rye. So, a slightly younger RR rye minus nine proof, and this is supposed to be good? I think I'll pass. Just to juxtepose; imagine our reactions if not 81, but a rye version of Rare Breed were anounced.

White Dog
03-09-2012, 14:10
Does anyone here like the RR 90 proof Rye? I tried it once because I like WT 101 Rye. My impression of the RR Rye was; nothing wrong with it, but sort of bland, definitely overpriced, not as good as WT 101 Rye. So, a slightly younger RR rye minus nine proof, and this is supposed to be good? I think I'll pass. Just to juxtepose; imagine our reactions if not 81, but a rye version of Rare Breed were anounced.

3 threads down from this one you'll see everyone's opinion on RRRye. Most agree with you.

Neat
03-10-2012, 19:00
imagine our reactions if not 81, but a rye version of Rare Breed were anounced.

OOOoooooooo!:bigeyes: now THAT is an idea! with rye becoming popular again, once production is sufficient, they'll roll it out. i hope so. however, since it's a rye version of RB, i hope/assume that the constituent ryes would be older than their bourbon counterparts. which means we have to wait a LONG time i guess.:shithappens:

birk
03-10-2012, 20:36
A bartender I talked to tonight was pretty distraught over the future lack of 101. Of course, a certain segment of the cocktail/hipster crowd is really into the high proofed ryes. Without Ritt and WT101 being around, these folks are pretty much fucked, from what I can tell.

p_elliott
03-13-2012, 07:31
I emailed Wild Turkey a week or so a go and asked them point blank if WT rye was an additional product or a replacement to WT rye 101 this is what I got back today:

Dear Paul,

We are very happy to say that we are using our new WT 81 for our Rye and we
will no longer be producing the WT 101 Rye.


Cheers,

Jodi
Campari America
Consumer Relations

Brisko
03-13-2012, 07:49
Okay, how many conflicting responses are we up to?

From memory:

Chuck gave us the "official" word (from Campari?) that the 101 was not going away, in fact it is up 20%.
White Dog was told by the midwest Campari rep that the 101 is gone for good.
StraightBoston is told by Eddie Russell that the 101 is gone but the 81 will be better whiskey.
Eddie "clarifies" to Chuck that no, the 101 is only gone temporarily.
Jodi from Campari informs Josh that there is a 101 bourbon but the rye is 81.
Jodi from Campari tells Paul that they will no longer be producing the 101 rye.Okay, so if we exclude Jodi's response to Josh which didn't have any real info in it, by my count that's 3 out of 5 pretty definitive "no's." And I'm not sure what to make of Eddie's "not till next year" line to Chuck because if that were the case they could have just said that at StraightBoston's event and cleared the air.

Enoch
03-13-2012, 08:03
I think the real problem is that no one hardly ever bought RR Rye ($30 for 90 proof) when they could get WT Rye ($20 for 101 proof). The manager at green's (local large store) said he can't remember when anyone bought a bottle of the RR Rye. The average person (especially in a college town) wants the most bang for the buck. And WT has a fairly new owner who may be changing their marketing strategy with emphasis on 81 proof for their standard product. 90 proof (maybe 91 later) for mid-range (ie. RR) and 101+ for top shelf. JMHO

cigarnv
03-13-2012, 08:28
I am going to put my money on Jodi....... no 101 rye...

White Dog
03-13-2012, 08:30
I emailed Wild Turkey a week or so a go and asked them point blank if WT rye was an additional product or a replacement to WT rye 101 this is what I got back today:

Dear Paul,

We are very happy to say that we are using our new WT 81 for our Rye and we
will no longer be producing the WT 101 Rye.


Cheers,

Jodi
Campari America
Consumer Relations

As long as Jodi is "very happy...":rolleyes:

soad
03-13-2012, 10:00
Maybe they are planning to discontinue the 101, but they want to give themselves enough wiggle room to bring it back if the 81's sales suck. That could explain the conflicting remarks from different arms of the company.

Lazer
03-13-2012, 10:08
I want to complain, but I don't think I can until I taste them side by side, maybe the 81 will be better. No. wait a minute. Higher proof is ALWAYS better. Don't these guys know how to make whiskey?

Bmac
03-13-2012, 10:23
There have been differing claims about Baby Saz but nothing definite from BT. I don't drink a lot of the Saz but my impression is that it has been trending younger.

FWIW, I contacted BT's brand manager a month or so ago about the contents of Charter Private Reserve Blended whiskey and was told that it contained a 6 Year Rye whiskey. The only rye BT has is Sazerac, right? Unofficially, I would say that confirms Sazs age.

Josh
03-13-2012, 11:35
FWIW, I contacted BT's brand manager a month or so ago about the contents of Charter Private Reserve Blended whiskey and was told that it contained a 6 Year Rye whiskey. The only rye BT has is Sazerac, right? Unofficially, I would say that confirms Sazs age.

How does that confirm anything beside the fact that the Charter blend has 6 y/o rye in it?

Baby Saz is a straight with NAS and it's not a BiB or SB so BT can put whatever age rye they want into it as long as it's over 4 y/o. I don't doubt that there is 6+ y/o rye in Saz, but when people say that it's "trending younger" they mean that there is a higher proportion of 4 or 5 y/o stuff in the mix.

Josh
03-13-2012, 11:47
That could explain the conflicting remarks from different arms of the company.

Or from the same individual!

I wonder if Jodi knows how big of an internet celebrity she has become.

soad
03-13-2012, 13:22
I wonder if Jodi knows how big of an internet celebrity she has become.

Follow her @confusedcampari :lol:

gblick
03-13-2012, 14:17
WT just keeps slapping us in the face, don't they? I wonder what they'll think of next.

cowdery
03-13-2012, 14:41
I've contacted the PR department again and we'll see what they tell me. What do you want from a bunch of San Franciscans who only knows from selling vodka?

Neat
03-13-2012, 14:51
Follow her @confusedcampari :lol:

THIS is very funny! :slappin:

situation is not. fwiw, as noted previously, the bourbon purchaser for the BIG chain here was told that the 101 was being discontinued and being replaced with the 81. 8yo and 12yo disappearing from US shelves. proofs being lowered. at the end of the day, it really is about the money. i'm glad i bunkdered a good number of the 101 at a discounted price. i don't need another bottle on my dusty radar (even though i'm pretty much giving up on dusty hunting in my area). bunkered the rittbib as well - don't want to deal with shortages and possible price increase.

jburlowski
03-13-2012, 14:53
FWIW, I contacted BT's brand manager a month or so ago about the contents of Charter Private Reserve Blended whiskey and was told that it contained a 6 Year Rye whiskey. The only rye BT has is Sazerac, right? Unofficially, I would say that confirms Sazs age.

I find it hard to believe that, in today's market, anyone would put 6 yo rye Saz in a blend... Unless there was something wrong / inferior about the rye.

It could be Barton rye.... They've been making it for years.

Bmac
03-13-2012, 15:10
I find it hard to believe that, in today's market, anyone would put 6 yo rye Saz in a blend... Unless there was something wrong / inferior about the rye.

It could be Barton rye.... They've been making it for years.
I went and found the email. Although not 100% confirmed due to the use of "thinks" but...I am convinced:

"Hello,

Our brand manager said he thinks it was 6 year old Sazerac Rye, 8 Year old Buffalo Trace, and some 7 year old Weller. I hope this helps!

Nan Harnice
Consumer Affairs Associate
Buffalo Trace Distillery
113 Great Buffalo Trace
Frankfort, KY 40601"

Bmac
03-13-2012, 15:13
How does that confirm anything beside the fact that the Charter blend has 6 y/o rye in it?

Baby Saz is a straight with NAS and it's not a BiB or SB so BT can put whatever age rye they want into it as long as it's over 4 y/o. I don't doubt that there is 6+ y/o rye in Saz, but when people say that it's "trending younger" they mean that there is a higher proportion of 4 or 5 y/o stuff in the mix.

It probably doesn't confirm anything because I didn't give the exact quote. Look at the previous post to see the quote from the brand manager.

jburlowski
03-13-2012, 15:14
Leave me in the "skeptical" column.

ethangsmith
03-13-2012, 15:32
I too will be emailing WT to see what response I get. Hopefully if they keep getting inquisitions, they will realize their terrible error.

ethangsmith
03-13-2012, 15:40
Just emailed this to them:

Greetings,

I am emailing for information about your Wild Turkey 101 proof rye. As I understand it, this rye is being replaced by an 81 proof rendition? My question is this- Is the 101 proof rye officially being discontinued or will it come back into production at a later date? Iíve been reading a bit online, but I feel the need to finally go right to the source and find out what the real deal is here. I must put a vote in for keeping the 101 proof rye in production. The higher proof certainly lends itself well to the flavors of the rye and it seems high proof ryes are the ďnew cool thing.Ē I donít know if I will buy a bottle of the 81, to be honest. I may move towards Rittenhouse Rye or the new Knob Creek rye as I find the high proof ryes are very rich and spicy in comparison to lower proof ryes. While I am a big Wild Turkey bourbon and rye fan, I find it difficult to swallow discontinuing the 101 proof rye. Thank you for your time and I hope to hear from you soon!

Thank you!

Ethan Smith.


We'll see what happens!

cowdery
03-13-2012, 16:07
I have confirmation from the PR Department that what they told me is, in fact, the case but that a lot of people (like Jodi) are jumping to the conclusion that the product is being discontinued for good. It isn't. All of it that has been bottled and distributed is all that will be bottled and distributed in 2012, but Wild Turkey 101 Rye will be back, and as for a shortage at retail, it may never actually disappear in many places.

Remember, these are vodka guys for whom 'production' means bottling.

They mentioned, and I know this is true, that delisting and substitution in Control States is common when a product goes on hiatus.

ethangsmith
03-13-2012, 17:22
I'm so confused by all of this. It does appear though that Chuck has finally gotten to the root of this and it does look like we will see the 101 rye again some day! Now the question is- what day?

White Dog
03-13-2012, 19:25
I went and found the email. Although not 100% confirmed due to the use of "thinks" but...I am convinced:

"Hello,

Our brand manager said he thinks it was 6 year old Sazerac Rye, 8 Year old Buffalo Trace, and some 7 year old Weller. I hope this helps!

Nan Harnice
Consumer Affairs Associate
Buffalo Trace Distillery
113 Great Buffalo Trace
Frankfort, KY 40601"

"I am convinced" Really?? You must own a sh-t ton of Sazerac stock.

dohidied
03-13-2012, 20:49
I went and found the email. Although not 100% confirmed due to the use of "thinks" but...I am convinced:

"Hello,

Our brand manager said he thinks it was 6 year old Sazerac Rye, 8 Year old Buffalo Trace, and some 7 year old Weller. I hope this helps!

Nan Harnice
Consumer Affairs Associate
Buffalo Trace Distillery
113 Great Buffalo Trace
Frankfort, KY 40601"

Are you convinced that Buffalo Trace is 8 years old?

Bmac
03-13-2012, 20:54
"I am convinced" Really?? You must own a sh-t ton of Sazerac stock.
Cool yer guns cowboy. Take a stroll throuh the internets. See how many instances of 6 yr Sazerac come up. Even Wikipedia lists it as 6.

Who really cares or did you not read where I said "FWIW?". So its not worth anything to you.

Bmac
03-13-2012, 20:56
Are you convinced that Buffalo Trace is 8 years old?

Just because there is no age statment doesnt mean it isnt 8 or 9 years old. I am convinced it's not my favorite bourbon. ;). At any age...

Restaurant man
03-13-2012, 21:25
Either way I have a case coming thursday. PM me if you are in Atlanta and want to share the bounty

cowdery
03-13-2012, 22:04
As a matter of personal policy, I don't believe any age claims that aren't on the label and I will no longer carry that water for the producers. Can I get a hear hear?

Bmac
03-13-2012, 22:14
As a matter of personal policy, I don't believe any age claims that aren't on the label and I will no longer carry that water for the producers. Can I get a hear hear?

I'll give you a "hear hear" for that.

Do you think the switch to NAS is so that the producers can be as ambiguous with the age per batch?

Brisko
03-14-2012, 05:00
Cool yer guns cowboy. Take a stroll throuh the internets. See how many instances of 6 yr Sazerac come up. Even Wikipedia lists it as 6.

Who really cares or did you not read where I said "FWIW?". So its not worth anything to you.

It's on the internets so it must be true, huh?
We've had this discussion before. This year even: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17114

What we know is that Baby Saz was probably around 6 years old when it came out. That's what BT told us at that time and as Chuck points out in the thread I linked, they have generally been good about telling us how old stuff is. That doesn't mean much, though. Is it the same age today? I'm sure they'd like you to think so. It's clearly not barely legal 4 years-and-a-day. I don't have the skill to guess how old it actually is, but my brain tells me it's probably about 3 parts younger whiskey and 2 parts older (or at least, more extractive).


I think what people are jumping on you for is your assertion that because they supposedly put a 6 year old rye in that blend that all of their rye is that age. That's just silly.

PaulO
03-14-2012, 07:07
As a matter of personal policy, I don't believe any age claims that aren't on the label and I will no longer carry that water for the producers. Can I get a hear hear? Here Here. If I don't see an age statement, it must be 4 years old. If it's not bonded, it could hypothetically have a few drops of something a little older. Then I start thinking of all the jokes about how little vermouth was used in making a martini. You know, let the shadow of the vermouth bottle cast accross the cocktail shaker and all that silliness.

Bmac
03-14-2012, 07:22
It's on the internets so it must be true, huh?

:cool: ...but......this forum is the internets too...so I clearly can't trust what's said here either. :grin:


I think what people are jumping on you for is your assertion that because they supposedly put a 6 year old rye in that blend that all of their rye is that age. That's just silly.
Fair enough, but I really don't think it was completely justified. :rolleyes: Besides, that blend was created and discontinued in 2007; maybe it was 6 years at that time? But I digress....:deadhorse:

Brisko
03-14-2012, 07:49
:cool: ...but......this forum is the internets too...so I clearly can't trust what's said here either. :grin:


Fair enough, but I really don't think it was completely justified. :rolleyes: Besides, that blend was created and discontinued in 2007; maybe it was 6 years at that time? But I digress....:deadhorse:

Maybe I'm missing something, daylight savings time has me a little foggy:grin:. So they're saying that the rye that went into the blend was 6 years old. Fine. What makes you think that has any bearing on what goes into Baby Saz?

It's the equivalent of contending that because EWSB is 9 years old, EW black must be, too.

Lazer
03-14-2012, 09:37
As a matter of personal policy, I don't believe any age claims that aren't on the label and I will no longer carry that water for the producers. Can I get a hear hear?

Hear Hear. Chuck Rules! :cool:

Bmac
03-14-2012, 09:42
Maybe I'm missing something, daylight savings time has me a little foggy:grin:. So they're saying that the rye that went into the blend was 6 years old. Fine. What makes you think that has any bearing on what goes into Baby Saz?
It's ok, the sun is coming out to remove the fog:cool:. It doesn't necessarily suggest that all Baby Saz produced in 2012 or even 2011 is/was 6 years old. It confirms the strongest possibility that Baby Saz was 6yrs old in 2007. So maybe go find a 2007 dusty and compare to current?

So, let's take a quick look at what facts (assumed or otherwise) we do have:

1) We have a brand manager from BT stating Baby Saz was 6yrs old when used in a discontinued blend from 2007.
2) There is no age statement on the bottle. (to my knowledge it never had an age statement on the bottle.)
3) Several sites on the web that sell alcoholic beverages lists Baby Saz as 6yrs old.
4) Wikipedia has this to say: "Sazerac is also a brand of Rye Whiskey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rye_Whiskey) owned by the Sazerac Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sazerac_Company) and produced at the Buffalo Trace Distillery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Trace_Distillery). There are two current expressions of the brand; an 18 year whiskey and a younger, 6 year-old. Both are bottled at 90 proof."
5) Individuals in this thread have suggested or stated that Baby Saz is in no way 6yrs old and is likely a blend of young and old.
6) Bottle says it's "straight whiskey" so it can't be blended with any other whiskey. So it's not likely it has young/old blends.

Basically, it's like saying Old Weller Antique is no longer 7 years old because the age statement dropped, but it's been 7 years through it's entire production. (shrug):rolleyes: As a general rule I lean towards an 80/20 view with discernment. So, 80% of whats out there says 6yr, whom am I to argue?

So...without further adieu I will conclude my argument on Baby Saz. It really doesn't matter if I am right, BT is wrong or if people on this thread are right/wrong. Cowdery said it best anyway.

Also, I suppose we shouldn't hi-jack a thread on WT rye talking about Baby Saz. ;)

Brisko
03-14-2012, 11:00
It's ok, the sun is coming out to remove the fog:cool:. It doesn't necessarily suggest that all Baby Saz produced in 2012 or even 2011 is/was 6 years old. It confirms the strongest possibility that Baby Saz was 6yrs old in 2007. So maybe go find a 2007 dusty and compare to current?

So, let's take a quick look at what facts (assumed or otherwise) we do have:

1) We have a brand manager from BT stating Baby Saz was 6yrs old when used in a discontinued blend from 2007.
2) There is no age statement on the bottle. (to my knowledge it never had an age statement on the bottle.)
3) Several sites on the web that sell alcoholic beverages lists Baby Saz as 6yrs old.
4) Wikipedia has this to say: "Sazerac is also a brand of Rye Whiskey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rye_Whiskey) owned by the Sazerac Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sazerac_Company) and produced at the Buffalo Trace Distillery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Trace_Distillery). There are two current expressions of the brand; an 18 year whiskey and a younger, 6 year-old. Both are bottled at 90 proof."
5) Individuals in this thread have suggested or stated that Baby Saz is in no way 6yrs old and is likely a blend of young and old.
6) Bottle says it's "straight whiskey" so it can't be blended with any other whiskey. So it's not likely it has young/old blends.

Basically, it's like saying Old Weller Antique is no longer 7 years old because the age statement dropped, but it's been 7 years through it's entire production. (shrug):rolleyes: As a general rule I lean towards an 80/20 view with discernment. So, 80% of whats out there says 6yr, whom am I to argue?

So...without further adieu I will conclude my argument on Baby Saz. It really doesn't matter if I am right, BT is wrong or if people on this thread are right/wrong. Cowdery said it best anyway.

Also, I suppose we shouldn't hi-jack a thread on WT rye talking about Baby Saz. ;)
Okay, I see where the confusion lies. I think we all (as in everybody but you) takes what the brand manager said to mean "the Sazerac rye that we put in that blend was 6 years old." We don't take that as a statement about the Sazerac rye line in general.

A couple other points: Wikipedia doesn't count, sorry... and regarding straight whiskeys, you're absolutely wrong. "Straight" simply means that it has aged at least 2 years in new, charred oak barrels, and that it is the product of one state. That's it.

cowdery
03-14-2012, 12:29
I'll give you a "hear hear" for that.

Do you think the switch to NAS is so that the producers can be as ambiguous with the age per batch?

That's one way to put it. They want the flexibility and figure that as long as the taste doesn't change significantly, they won't lose their regular drinkers.

Enoch
03-14-2012, 12:33
A couple other points: Wikipedia doesn't count, sorry... and regarding straight whiskeys, you're absolutely wrong. "Straight" simply means that it has aged at least 2 years in new, charred oak barrels, and that it is the product of one state. That's it.

I think the bottle must state the age if it is less than four years, but I may be wrong.

cowdery
03-14-2012, 12:40
It doesn't necessarily suggest that all Baby Saz produced in 2012 or even 2011 is/was 6 years old. It confirms the strongest possibility that Baby Saz was 6yrs old in 2007.

It most certainly does no such thing. You're thinking about this the wrong way. At any given moment, Buffalo Trace has barrels of rye aging that are one month old, and it has barrels that are ten years (or more) old, and every age in between. If they go to sell a customer some rye, it can be any of those ages, and that bears no relationship to what they choose to bottle as Baby Saz or anything else.

The prolem with distilleries telling us ages when it's not on the label is:

They can lie (though they usually don't).

The age can change (this is more common).

Those claims can be misreported, since it's always somebody-told-somebody who posted it someplace.

It confuses people who want to interpret it the same as a label statement. I'm glad when the distilleries will tell me about how old an NAS product is, that's information I'm glad to have, but I'm not going to give it the same weight as an label statement.

I suggest that we should quote ages of NAS products with the full source disclaimer or not quote them at all. I haven't always felt that way but I have seen the confusion it can cause, as people try to find a definitive answer to something that cannot be answered definitively.

Restaurant man
03-14-2012, 19:36
Here here. If you want to be taken seriously about age statement's, put em on the label and remove all doubt. It's like believing a woman about her age or a man about his "shoe" size.

Josh
03-14-2012, 19:52
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1489/why-do-people-say-hear-hear

trumpstylz
03-15-2012, 03:44
Here here. If you want to be taken seriously about age statement's, put em on the label and remove all doubt. It's like believing a woman about her age or a man about his "shoe" size.

Or a woman's weight.

ethangsmith
03-15-2012, 14:56
FWIW, my response from WT/Campari:

"Dear Ethan,

Thank you for taking the time to e-mail us about Wild Turkey 101 RYE.

There is no Wild Turkey 101 Rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of Rye. Wild Turkey 81 Rye was already in the pipeline and is out there. We have allocated what we have available of 101 Rye across the country. As the shortage improves, 101 Rye will be back, but probably not for 2012. We donít have any shortage of Bourbon, so this allocation doesn't affect Wild Turkey 101 or 81 Bourbon. As an FYI, Russell's Reserve Bourbon and Rye are both in good supply.

Thank you again for contacting Campari America"

This is consistent with what Chuck has already posted on here, along with a few others. Looks like we just have to weather a shortage for a while!

Josh
03-15-2012, 16:05
FWIW, my response from WT/Campari:

"Dear Ethan,

Thank you for taking the time to e-mail us about Wild Turkey 101 RYE.

There is no Wild Turkey 101 Rye in current production or scheduled for the next months, as there is a shortage of Rye. Wild Turkey 81 Rye was already in the pipeline and is out there. We have allocated what we have available of 101 Rye across the country. As the shortage improves, 101 Rye will be back, but probably not for 2012. We donít have any shortage of Bourbon, so this allocation doesn't affect Wild Turkey 101 or 81 Bourbon. As an FYI, Russell's Reserve Bourbon and Rye are both in good supply.

Thank you again for contacting Campari America"

This is consistent with what Chuck has already posted on here, along with a few others. Looks like we just have to weather a shortage for a while!

The big question is, was it Jodi who wrote you that email?

ethangsmith
03-15-2012, 20:06
It was not. It's from Janice in Consumer Relations.

smokinjoe
03-15-2012, 20:17
Jodi had been...reassigned...

"We are happy to..."---Dingbat...

timd
03-15-2012, 22:32
Jodi had been...reassigned...

"We are happy to..."---Dingbat...
I'm actually dying of laughter - and just forced some bourbon through my nose... and it really, really hurts!

Neat
03-16-2012, 07:30
"As the shortage improves, 101 Rye will be back, but probably not for 2012."

2 of those 3 clauses bother me and the other clause ("will be back") is not very comforting.

Bmac
03-16-2012, 08:10
I'm having a hard time understanding "shortages." If they run a standard production schedule they should be producing a relative "set" amount (in gallons) of new make a year. Those barrels age and then the next round gets barreled, and so on, and so on.

Unless they stopped production altogether or decided to sell barrels to independent bottlers, there should be a reasonable amount that gets shipped each year.

Can any sage or guru shed some light on this enigma for me? :)

Brisko
03-16-2012, 08:57
They probably run rye less than one week a year. More than likely they only dump and bottle once a year, too. That's one aspect.

The other is this: if, following projections they laid down (for sake of argument) 100 barrels of rye in 2008, they could dump those and bottle in 2012. But what if, as they say, demand goes up 20% over the course 2009-2012? They can adjust production upward annually but they still are only going to have their 100 barrels ready to go 2012.

That's why everything they have is already bottled and shipped for the year.

Josh
03-16-2012, 09:01
I'm having a hard time understanding "shortages." If they run a standard production schedule they should be producing a relative "set" amount (in gallons) of new make a year. Those barrels age and then the next round gets barreled, and so on, and so on.

Unless they stopped production altogether or decided to sell barrels to independent bottlers, there should be a reasonable amount that gets shipped each year.

Can any sage or guru shed some light on this enigma for me? :)

The only reason I have Guru under my name is b/c I was unemployed for a while, but I'll give it a shot...

The answer is that demand has shot up very quickly by whiskey standards. To keep up with demand, they had to have anticipated this spike at least 4 yrs. ago. They didn't. They may not have even had enough warehouse space to increase production if they had. As I understand it, every rickhouse in Kentucky is bursting at the seams currently. They have probably been increasing production for a couple years now, but there's a gap between when that stuff is distilled and when it becomes ready to bottle and ship. That's how I understand it.

Bmac
03-16-2012, 11:10
Thanks Josh and Brisko, that makes sense.

I suppose I was a thinking too black and white about production and not thinking in terms of dynamic variables like forecasts and predictions. I'm used to the concept that once you start a product you continue production until you decide it isn't making money and shut it down.

jburlowski
03-16-2012, 14:04
Rye was a very small (and despite the recent growth, still is) and stagnant market. The distilleries made "just enough" because there was no outlet for excess stocks. So with the aging requirements and little slack in the supply chain, we have the current shortages / outages.

cowdery
03-16-2012, 14:56
Two things.

One, Janice's message, as compared to Jodi's, shows how this board directly affects the industry. I'm sure there was a bit of a flurry at Campari America this week as the directive went out to answer all WT 101 rye inquiries thusly. Congratulations! You all are players.

Second, although they spin it differently ("81 was in the pipeline"), there is some robbing of Peter to pay Paul, much as the Dickel shortage affected No. 8 but not No. 12 or Single Barrel, even though they all draw from the same pool.

"Shortage of rye" is a poor choice of words, because it suggests there is a shortage of rye grain, which is not the case. It means they don't have enough fully-aged rye whiskey to meet demand.

The best example of how this works is Maker's Mark, which has been on allocation for something like 25 years. All it means is that they have more demand than they have product available to meet it and even though they keep making more, demand keeps growing ahead of supply.

Production planning for whiskey distilleries is very complicated, as you can imagine. Jack Daniel's, for example, just plans for success and increases production (i.e., distilling) about five percent per year. I once asked Jeff Conder, who at that time was in charge of all production for Jim Beam, how they plan for 10 or 15-year thresholds. He said they really don't. "We just try to get the next five years right," was his answer.

Rye has been growing very rapidly from a very small base and who knows how long it will last? Be glad you don't have those kinds of problems.

mosugoji64
03-16-2012, 17:02
Chuck - that MM has been on allocation for the past 25 years is interesting given that it seems plentiful. Have they just been very good with the logistics?

Bmac
03-16-2012, 18:30
Chuck - that MM has been on allocation for the past 25 years is interesting given that it seems plentiful. Have they just been very good with the logistics?

You beat me to it. Same question. MM is every where and Inever see a dent in it's allocation on store shelves.

Neat
03-17-2012, 09:55
One, Janice's message, as compared to Jodi's, shows how this board directly affects the industry. I'm sure there was a bit of a flurry at Campari America this week as the directive went out to answer all WT 101 rye inquiries thusly. Congratulations! You all are players.

OMG! OMG! OMG! i'm a playa! i'm a PLAYA!:bigeyes:

Neat
03-17-2012, 10:08
You beat me to it. Same question. MM is every where and Inever see a dent in it's allocation on store shelves.

same here. when something is allocated in texas (ritt bib for example, or weller 12), i don't see them on the shelves from time to time. the weller 12 - we get more than other areas of the country but most stores won't have handles. even the really small stores here ALWAYS have MM.

White Dog
03-17-2012, 10:58
I've never seen anything but an abundance of MM both at on and off-premise establishments.

soad
03-18-2012, 06:30
I've never seen anything but an abundance of MM both at on and off-premise establishments.

I think your local store owner would like to get 20 bottles a week (for example) from the distributor but only gets 17 because it is on allocation. The consumer will not notice it, but the owner would say that his stock of MM is thinner than he would like.

ethangsmith
03-18-2012, 13:05
FWIW, my stash.........

Phil T
03-18-2012, 13:43
FWIW, my stash.........

Nice. What's the price in PA? $17.25 here in Ohio

cowdery
03-18-2012, 14:26
Chuck - that MM has been on allocation for the past 25 years is interesting given that it seems plentiful. Have they just been very good with the logistics?

That's why I keep making the point that all 'shortage' means is that the distillery can't deliver as much as people order and when a customer says "we want X" they answer, "you can have Y." That doesn't mean the product is suddenly going to disappear at retail. Do people, knowing how it works, sometimes order more than they want in hopes of getting the amount they really want? Of course they do. Do retailers and distributors sometimes 'stock up,' much as consumers do? Of course they do.

I would never suggest that people need to understand the booze business in order to enjoy booze but if you choose to comment on the business, it helps to know how it really works.

ethangsmith
03-18-2012, 17:05
Nice. What's the price in PA? $17.25 here in Ohio

Was on sale for $17.99 a bottle, now it's back up to the regular $19.99 if you can find it.

callmeox
03-18-2012, 17:32
Nice. What's the price in PA? $17.25 here in Ohio


17.10 in my county. :grin:

Ohio sets base price that doesn't include local taxes, so the price can vary from county to county depending on the county tax rate.

mosugoji64
03-18-2012, 20:32
That's why I keep making the point that all 'shortage' means is that the distillery can't deliver as much as people order and when a customer says "we want X" they answer, "you can have Y." That doesn't mean the product is suddenly going to disappear at retail. Do people, knowing how it works, sometimes order more than they want in hopes of getting the amount they really want? Of course they do. Do retailers and distributors sometimes 'stock up,' much as consumers do? Of course they do.

I would never suggest that people need to understand the booze business in order to enjoy booze but if you choose to comment on the business, it helps to know how it really works.

Thanks for the reply. I'm sure that clears up a lot of confusion for many people here. I think many of us try to understand the business, but it is different enough in some aspects that terminology and strategy don't directly translate from other business models. We appreciate the insight!

cowdery
03-19-2012, 14:20
Thanks for the reply. I'm sure that clears up a lot of confusion for many people here. I think many of us try to understand the business, but it is different enough in some aspects that terminology and strategy don't directly translate from other business models. We appreciate the insight!

The aging cycle and its effect on production planning and, hence, sales planning is one big oddity. So is the legally-mandated three-tier distribution system and, probably, the intense and oddly state-specific regulatory environment. Federal law usually tries to ensure a consistent national market, but does just the opposite with alcohol.

Young Blacksmith
03-19-2012, 16:53
Stopped in to my local chain and all the WT101 is gone. Probably cleaned out by sales, as I saw an old label WT80 in the bargain bin for $10.

Bmac
03-19-2012, 17:35
Stopped in to my local chain and all the WT101 is gone. Probably cleaned out by sales, as I saw an old label WT80 in the bargain bin for $10.

I know a place that has two bottles left, but its in Dallas TX

HRay
03-21-2012, 14:56
While I haven't checked everywhere here in Atlanta, it seems that all the WT101 Rye is gone. Any idea when the WT81 Rye is going to show up?

Restaurant man
03-22-2012, 13:13
The distributor here is definitely out. Gonna have to dig some up in unsavory areas of town. Which is fine for unsavory types like myself

cowdery
03-22-2012, 13:21
The distributor here is definitely out. Gonna have to dig some up in unsavory areas of town. Which is fine for unsavory types like myself

Has anybody actually seen it in a store yet?

BigRich
03-22-2012, 13:34
The distributor here is definitely out. Gonna have to dig some up in unsavory areas of town. Which is fine for unsavory types like myself

Come on, we only call you that to your face. :grin:

Restaurant man
03-22-2012, 20:55
That's what she said RigBich

Tico
03-22-2012, 22:27
Picked up three bottles at a local liquor store today, they looked like they had been sitting there for some time.

BigRich
03-23-2012, 05:32
That's what she said RigBich

Touche old boy, touche

Enoch
03-23-2012, 06:56
Went by my local liquor store last night and there was a sign at both WT Rye 101 and Ritt BiB that said distributor out of stock. I wonder if the sudden availability of Ritt BiB a couple of months ago was a very temporary thing.

cowdery
03-23-2012, 11:34
Went by my local liquor store last night and there was a sign at both WT Rye 101 and Ritt BiB that said distributor out of stock. I wonder if the sudden availability of Ritt BiB a couple of months ago was a very temporary thing.

That may have been the drop for the year. That's how it's going now with rye. If you happen to get there on the day it drops, it looks like they have plenty, but when it's gone it's gone until the next release.

As someone else mentioned, the distilleries are still only making rye maybe four to six days a year, half in each distilling season. All of it gets barreled at the same time and all of it matures at the same time so this is probably what we're going to see until demand and supply even out a bit more, one of two releases a year of most rye brands.

Brisko
03-23-2012, 13:31
I stopped by one of my usual haunts in Minneapolis this afternoon and they had the new 81 proof rye for $19.99. I don't recall precisely how the 101 was priced because I never bought it there before, but I think it was the same price.

As curious as I am to test their claims that the 81 will taste better, I'm going to have a really hard time paying the same price for it as the 101 was. I'm curious about how it will be priced elsewhere-- I had a couple places where I could find it for $16.99, when it was in stock.

Neat
03-23-2012, 14:23
I stopped by one of my usual haunts in Minneapolis this afternoon and they had the new 81 proof rye for $19.99. I don't recall precisely how the 101 was priced because I never bought it there before, but I think it was the same price.

As curious as I am to test their claims that the 81 will taste better, I'm going to have a really hard time paying the same price for it as the 101 was. I'm curious about how it will be priced elsewhere-- I had a couple places where I could find it for $16.99, when it was in stock.

16.99 is a great price. when the 101 is available here, it goes for about $20. i bought a case recently bc i didn't want to deal with either a discontinuation or shortage and they gave me 10% off.

cowdery
03-23-2012, 18:46
I just talked to both Jimmy and Eddie Russell. There probably won't be any more 101 rye until 2013, but it will be back. Saw the new one. Label does not have a big '81' on it like the bourbon does, though otherwise it's pretty similar.

Jimmy was also excited to tell me that they just broke ground for the new bottling hall. He hates having it bottled in Arkansas.

Brisko
03-23-2012, 19:09
I just talked to both Jimmy and Eddie Russell. There probably won't be any more 101 rye until 2013, but it will be back. Saw the new one. Label does not have a big '81' on it like the bourbon does, though otherwise it's pretty similar.

Jimmy was also excited to tell me that they just broke ground for the new bottling hall. He hates having it bottled in Arkansas.

Good news. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for a year. I probably won't be buying the 81 at $20 a pop unless it gets rave reviews, though.

At any rate I am done beating this dead horse.:cool:

smokinjoe
03-23-2012, 20:14
I don't drink the 101 stuff. But, for a lousy 20 bucks I'll pick up a bottle of the 81, and see what I think.

bad_scientist
03-24-2012, 14:08
WT 101 Rye just got restocked in a couple of stores around here, to the tune of 20-30 bottles each. No need to reinforce your roof for skies that are falling...

IowaJeff
03-31-2012, 12:18
I've never been able to find the 101 around me so it's no loss to me personally, but I do feel your angst. I did pick up a bottle of 81 today. I'll Have to give it a few drinks before I judge it. It's not knocking my socks off so far though.

boneuphtoner
04-02-2012, 16:55
I was relieved when I read the online inventory of my closest stores, they listed they had restocked with plenty of the WT 101. Unfortunately, when I got to the store, there was no 101 but the WT 81 Rye!!!

bad_scientist
04-02-2012, 17:41
I was relieved when I read the online inventory of my closest stores, they listed they had restocked with plenty of the WT 101. Unfortunately, when I got to the store, there was no 101 but the WT 81 Rye!!!

Wow, I shouldn't have passed up the half dozen or so bottles I've seen in the past few weeks. I put too much trust in Montgomery County sometimes.

boneuphtoner
04-04-2012, 05:42
Wow, I shouldn't have passed up the half dozen or so bottles I've seen in the past few weeks. I put too much trust in Montgomery County sometimes.

The really scary thing is they had this priced and labeled (the store's label below the bottles still says WT 101 rye, as does the website) as if this WERE the 101 rye....at $19.95. So no price drop on the WT 81 rye. Weren't most of us expecting SOME sort of a price drop with the cut in proof? I don't think the store was trying to deceive us, I honestly think they didn't notice the difference.

Unless it goes on sale or I buy a bunch of different stuff approaching a case (they give you a case discount including mixed cases), I probably won't be trying this anytime soon. When you can get comparably proofed Pikesville or Beam rye for less than half of this price, I'm just not a believer that this will be twice as good.

ethangsmith
04-04-2012, 16:29
Pikesville FTW!! Love that stuff!!

StraightBoston
04-04-2012, 18:17
The really scary thing is they had this priced and labeled (the store's label below the bottles still says WT 101 rye, as does the website) as if this WERE the 101 rye....at $19.95. So no price drop on the WT 81 rye. Weren't most of us expecting SOME sort of a price drop with the cut in proof? I don't think the store was trying to deceive us, I honestly think they didn't notice the difference.

I've seen the label (says "RYE", not "81") and I was there when Eddie talked about the change. I think that Campari is planning to slide this into the Rye-Formerly-Known-As-101 slot, including its pricing. If Chuck's information is correct and the 101 comes back in 2013, I would expect a new label and a new (higher) price point.

While this sucks, it's no different than potato chips and candy bars shrinking in serving size at the same price point.

Young Blacksmith
04-05-2012, 17:37
Saw this today at a local store too. Same price as the 101. The packaging looks similar to their new styles too.

cowdery
04-06-2012, 07:33
I think you can count on it that when the 101 rye reappears, it will be in new packaging and at a higher price.

Brisko
04-09-2012, 08:07
I think you can count on it that when the 101 rye reappears, it will be in new packaging and at a higher price.

So do you think it would it replace the current product, then? Because I can't see them having three ryes in the stable.

clingman71
04-09-2012, 08:18
Including the RR, there are three. Whether in new label or returning old label (2013), you have 81, 101, & RR.

Brisko
04-09-2012, 08:30
Including the RR, there are three. Whether in new label or returning old label (2013), you have 81, 101, & RR.

That's exactly my point. Why have both the 81 and 101 in such a small segment? So would the 101 replace the 81 when it comes back?

And Kevin is spot on with the label. It's all about the "Rye" not about the proof-- in direct contrast to the bourbons where the 81 and the 101 are quite prominent.

clingman71
04-09-2012, 08:40
That's exactly my point. Why have both the 81 and 101 in such a small segment? So would the 101 replace the 81 when it comes back?

And Kevin is spot on with the label. It's all about the "Rye" not about the proof-- in direct contrast to the bourbons where the 81 and the 101 are quite prominent.

Hard to believe they would go to that much trouble for a 12-18 month stopgap. I would think that both will remain and the 101 availability will vary with supply.

cowdery
04-09-2012, 13:02
So do you think it would it replace the current product, then? Because I can't see them having three ryes in the stable.

Yes, it will replace the current product but it won't really be a new product itself, just a new label consistent with the new family look.

WT doesn't have any control over this, but my guess is that distributors are steering what 101 Rye they have toward the on-premise customers. That's because a liquor store will usually let you back in after you've been gone for awhile but a bar might not.

clingman71
04-09-2012, 13:29
Yes, it will replace the current product but it won't really be a new product itself, just a new label consistent with the new family look.

WT doesn't have any control over this, but my guess is that distributors are steering what 101 Rye they have toward the on-premise customers. That's because a liquor store will usually let you back in after you've been gone for awhile but a bar might not.

So you're saying they created Rye 81 for one year or so? That makes zero sense.

Enoch
04-10-2012, 09:04
just picked up the new wt 81 rye. Haven't tasted it yet but it is clearly lighter in color and costs a dollar more.

cowdery
04-10-2012, 14:19
So you're saying they created Rye 81 for one year or so? That makes zero sense.

Of course I'm not saying that. Perhaps I misunderstood the question. When 101 returns, WT will have three rye expressions, RR Rye, WT Rye 81, and WT Rye 101, but there won't be an additional new label 101. The old 101 won't return in its present form. That's not from them, by the way, that's my conjecture.

Gee, misunderstandings can happen so easily. Let's quickly crucify each other about it.

clingman71
04-10-2012, 14:33
Of course I'm not saying that. Perhaps I misunderstood the question. When 101 returns, WT will have three rye expressions, RR Rye, WT Rye 81, and WT Rye 101, but there won't be an additional new label 101. The old 101 won't return in its present form. That's not from them, by the way, that's my conjecture.

Gee, misunderstandings can happen so easily. Let's quickly crucify each other about it.


Ok, first, 3 ryes is what I expected, once 101 returns. That is what I replied to Brisko's question. Second, you lost me with the 101. When it returns, you say it won't be in its present form. Ok, that would mean new label 101 Rye, but you said that there won't be additional new label 101.

I'm understanding this to mean one new label 101(no additional = 2nd), new label 81, and RR. The word "additional" is throwing me off as right now there is no 101 label(not talking about bottles already in distribution/retail) and whenever it does return it will be an additional label to the current 2, 81 & RR.

cowdery
04-10-2012, 14:55
We're saying the exact same thing in response to Brisko's question. The WT ryes are RR, 81 and 101. The 101 will probably have a new label and a higher price the next time they bottle it, whenever that is.

Enoch
04-10-2012, 14:59
just picked up the new wt 81 rye. Haven't tasted it yet but it is clearly lighter in color and costs a dollar more.

Ok, to my unsophisticated palette it is good but clearly taste like watered down WT Rye 101, nothing more or less

clingman71
04-10-2012, 15:05
Ok, to my unsophisticated palette it is good but clearly taste like watered down WT Rye 101, nothing more or less

Less whiskey for more money. A-B has made a lot of money doing that in the beer world.

smokinjoe
04-10-2012, 15:11
It seems many of our threads are going like this:


Chung Mee: Opium is my business. The bridge mean more traffic. More traffic mean more money. More money mean more power.
Lawrence Bourne III: Yeah, well, before I commit any of that to memory, would there be anything in this for me?
Chung Mee: Speed is important in business. Time is money.
Lawrence Bourne III: You said opium was money.
Chung Mee: Money is Money.
Lawrence Bourne III: Well then, what is time again?

clingman71
04-10-2012, 15:48
Stopped at my local store today, WT RYE 81, damn. I've been picking up 1-2 bottles of 101 per week since the news broke. Left a single bottle of 101 behind Sat, I knew it was a mistake!