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White Dog
04-17-2012, 10:13
I'd like to start by stating a few things.

I love the effects of oxygen on both Rye-recipe Bourbon and Wheaters. I feel that Wheaters benefit more, and for longer periods, than Rye-recipe, but aeration helps with both.

I also feel that this can be taken too far, and a taste drop off will eventually start to happen, although this can take some time. I recently revisited a Pappy 20 that had been open for over a year, and it was phenomenal.

On the other hand, with Ryes, and I'm mostly speaking to the ultra-aged Ryes such as Vintage 21, Hirsch 22 and 25, BMH 23, I've had some troubling experiences. The drop off happens much more quickly than with Bourbon, IMHO. After 6 months, many of these bottlings no longer have the same pop. The flavors are much "quieter." (I find this particularly true with Saz 18.)

So my theory is to finish those Ryes within a few months of opening them, as the drop off is highly disappointing at those prices.:hot:

Anyone else have this experience?

Tico
04-17-2012, 10:35
I absolutely notice this with the older ryes. My 2011 Saz 18 has lost a considerable amount of concentration and body after being open for about 4 months.

c2walker
04-17-2012, 11:02
I absolutely notice this with the older ryes. My 2011 Saz 18 has lost a considerable amount of concentration and body after being open for about 4 months.

I had a pour last night of 2011 Saz 18 opened in January and I feel the same way. I was hoping it wasn't true after reading a similar thread a few weeks ago, but sure enough, while the nose is still sublime, the palate has dropped off quite a bit. It's a shame since older ryes are so hard to come by and I like to save and savor them. Looks like I'll need to kill off the last 1/4 of this bottle in the next week or so now.

Brisko
04-17-2012, 11:41
So, would rebottling into smaller bottles help?

dbk
04-17-2012, 11:41
I haven't noticed this, myself, but I also haven't been paying that much attention to the issue. Alternate strategies to finishing the bottle quickly are to: (1) decant into smaller bottles; and (2) use an inert gas (http://www.whiskyadvocateblog.com/2008/09/22/how-are-you-storing-your-whisky/) to displace the oxygen. I usually opt for strategy (3): have some friends help me polish off the bottle. ;)

jtexaslonestar
04-20-2012, 06:54
I haven't noticed this, myself, but I also haven't been paying that much attention to the issue. Alternate strategies to finishing the bottle quickly are to: (1) decant into smaller bottles; and (2) use an inert gas (http://www.whiskyadvocateblog.com/2008/09/22/how-are-you-storing-your-whisky/) to displace the oxygen. I usually opt for strategy (3): have some friends help me polish off the bottle. ;)

I like strategy #3 also. My ryes normally don:t hang around long enough to have this issue. :grin: but it is very interesting to read your observations.

unclebunk
04-20-2012, 07:18
Yikes! I've got open bottles of Saz 18, VWFRR and Michter's 10 that have been hanging around for well over a year. Guess I better get on it. It's a raw and rainy day here in Chicago, so a bit of old rye should warm us up this evening.

White Dog
04-20-2012, 07:50
Yikes! I've got open bottles of Saz 18, VWFRR and Michter's 10 that have been hanging around for well over a year. Guess I better get on it. It's a raw and rainy day here in Chicago, so a bit of old rye should warm us up this evening.

Please share with us how they're showing.

Tico
04-20-2012, 09:21
Please share with us how they're showing.

I have a bottle of VWFRR that has been open about the same amount of time as my 11' Saz 18, 4 months or so. At this stage the VWFRR is miles ahead of the Saz 18. The VWFRR seems so much more fresh, creamy, rich with lovely spice. This is from the most recent release, B bottle.

White Dog
04-20-2012, 10:38
I have a bottle of VWFRR that has been open about the same amount of time as my 11' Saz 18, 4 months or so. At this stage the VWFRR is miles ahead of the Saz 18. The VWFRR seems so much more fresh, creamy, rich with lovely spice. This is from the most recent release, B bottle.

I'm glad you brought that up. I've not noticed the same type of drop-off with VWFRR as I have with other older Ryes. It seems like an outlier.

Brisko
04-24-2012, 07:42
I have a bottle of Saz 18 that has been open for just over a year. It's about half gone. It did drop off a bit in the first six months or so, but I revisited it this weekend with a few pours and at seems to be holding steady for now. The nose has improved a little, actually.

tmckenzie
04-25-2012, 04:40
The volitle chemicals that give rye its nose are easily lost would be my theory.

Old Lamplighter
04-25-2012, 22:04
Not good news for my Bowman, not good news at all. It's down to a little under a half and I was hoping to kind of nurse it until later in the year.

unclebunk
04-26-2012, 08:43
I have a bottle of Saz 18 that has been open for just over a year. It's about half gone. It did drop off a bit in the first six months or so, but I revisited it this weekend with a few pours and at seems to be holding steady for now. The nose has improved a little, actually.

I finally got around to sampling my long-open bottle of Saz 18 as well and could not detect any drop off in overall quality. There may be a slight fade in spice, replaced by a bit more sweetness but don't hold me to that. Whatever the case may be, we thoroughly enjoyed our pours last night and will move on to a bottle of VWFRR that's now down to two inches after sitting for a long spell.

LikeItWasSodaPop
04-26-2012, 09:22
Gotta chime in and say, yeah, especially w/r/t Saz 18 the drop off can be astounding. I am really impulsive in terms of hitting my best sh&% when it's available, so I take the stuff I want to conserve and shove it in the nether reigons of my cabinet or even squirrel it away in coat closets behind piles of boots and whatnot.

Dug out a 2010 Saz 18 after about 6 months with 1/3 left and it was gone baby gone, as in, "This rye whiskey has passed on! This rye is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-RYE WHISKEY!!"

I think the real question that needs answering is whether this is a Saz 18 phenomenon or a old rye phenomenon. I more recently watched this flaccidity occur with a 2011 Saz 18, though I did go with Option 3 (I am using this code word from now on) as long as you stretch the interpretation of "friends to help polish off the bottle" to mean "me drinking most of it and pouring a modest Glencairn for the (soon to be) wifey."

White Dog
04-26-2012, 10:23
Gotta chime in and say, yeah, especially w/r/t Saz 18 the drop off can be astounding. I am really impulsive in terms of hitting my best sh&% when it's available, so I take the stuff I want to conserve and shove it in the nether reigons of my cabinet or even squirrel it away in coat closets behind piles of boots and whatnot.

Dug out a 2010 Saz 18 after about 6 months with 1/3 left and it was gone baby gone, as in, "This rye whiskey has passed on! This rye is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-RYE WHISKEY!!"

I think the real question that needs answering is whether this is a Saz 18 phenomenon or a old rye phenomenon. I more recently watched this flaccidity occur with a 2011 Saz 18, though I did go with Option 3 (I am using this code word from now on) as long as you stretch the interpretation of "friends to help polish off the bottle" to mean "me drinking most of it and pouring a modest Glencairn for the (soon to be) wifey."

I use option 3 in the same manner.:lol: :lol:

I also experience this drop-off with Vintage 21. Hadn't touched a 1/2 full bottle for about 6 months, and by then it was too late.

dbk
04-26-2012, 10:34
Surely, you all know this famous nursery rhyme.

To save my rye
From the soon-to-be days-gone-by
I shall ever defer option oneŚ
To decant some;
And option twoŚ
How that gas blew!;
For option threeŚ
A generous pour for friends, wifey, and me

They teach it to us in Kindergarten here in Canada.

LikeItWasSodaPop
04-26-2012, 10:50
Jolly good show DBK!

I was inspired to "Mad Men [My]self" in tribute to your avatar.

Sucks that the only whiskey option involves ice. Probably accurate, history-wise, though.

Lots of bow tie options, though, and I appreciate that.

Tico
04-27-2012, 21:34
Revisiting 2011 Saz 18, haven't had it in a month or so. This is the bottle that has been open since early December. Served in my Glencairn, neat of course. Nose seems a bit better, still the same juicy fruit, did herbs and spice profile that I remember. On the palate is more of th herbal spice and wood with a touch more body than what I remember last time.

Still a good drink but it's definitely missing the smoothness and concentration that I remember from a few months back.

Bourbon Boiler
04-28-2012, 20:08
That leaves us with option four
It requires a trip to the local store.
Buy some marbles made of glass,
Whiskey is fading, hustle your (rear)
Put into the bottle, displace the air
Show your rye how much you care.
Now enjoy When'ere you can,
For the greedy, number four's the plan.

dbk
04-29-2012, 16:41
Nicely done, BB!

bad_scientist
04-29-2012, 18:09
That leaves us with option four
It requires a trip to the local store.
Buy some marbles made of glass,
Whiskey is fading, hustle your (rear)
Put into the bottle, displace the air
Show your rye how much you care.
Now enjoy When'ere you can,
For the greedy, number four's the plan.


Are you saying you fart into your glass? I guess that's one way of keeping a consistent profile...

Bourbon Boiler
04-29-2012, 19:10
Nicely done, BB!

Thanks, you set me up very well. :toast:

Bourbon Boiler
04-29-2012, 19:11
Are you saying you fart into your glass? I guess that's one way of keeping a consistent profile...

Hopefully it's clear that the marbles go into the glass, although your interpretation is certainly interesting. :lol:

dbk
04-29-2012, 19:13
Hopefully it's clear that the marbles go into the glass, although your interpretation is certainly interesting. :lol:
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

bad_scientist
04-29-2012, 20:53
Hopefully it's clear that the marbles go into the glass, although your interpretation is certainly interesting. :lol:


Heh heh, sorry, some juvenile idiot took over my mind for a minute :) Thanks for being a good sport!

edo
05-01-2012, 20:59
I posted this a couple years ago in the 'show stash' thread. I just recalculated how long the 30ml of Old Rip Van Winkle Old Time Rye must have sat in the bottle: at least 14 months. It was still surprisingly excellent after all that time.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=193175&postcount=77

unclebunk
05-06-2012, 14:21
Gotta chime in and say, yeah, especially w/r/t Saz 18 the drop off can be astounding...Dug out a 2010 Saz 18 after about 6 months with 1/3 left and it was gone baby gone, as in, "This rye whiskey has passed on! This rye is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-RYE WHISKEY!!"

I think the real question that needs answering is whether this is a Saz 18 phenomenon or a old rye phenomenon.


I finally got around to sampling my long-open bottle of Saz 18 as well and could not detect any drop off in overall quality. There may be a slight fade in spice, replaced by a bit more sweetness but don't hold me to that. Whatever the case may be, we thoroughly enjoyed our pours last night and will move on to a bottle of VWFRR that's now down to two inches after sitting for a long spell.

Went back yet again last night to the Saz 18 and I truly can see no drop-off whatsoever in this bottle. (It is a Fall 2007 release which I opened in the summer of 2009, so it's been open nearly three years.) I thought I detected a slight fade in spice last time around, replaced by a touch more sweetness. But last night's pour was full of spice and had a nice long finish, so I don't know what to say about your bottle diminishing in quality.

I plan to open a new bottle of VWFRR this week and compare it side-by-side with my long-open bottle of VW to see if there's any significant difference. They are both "I" bottles purchased together several years ago and I'm curious to see what changes may have occurred in the one that's been open over two years.