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passthebourbon
06-14-2012, 17:06
Hi Everyone,

Hoping some of the collector's/guru's could help dig up some info on the attached bottle. Looked all over the internet and keep coming up short. Hoping to find information on number of cases shipped to Japan, if anyone has tasted this I'd love to know what you thought of it, and any other information you think would be helpful.

Hope the pic's came out alright...had to do some editing!

Cheers,
Pete

AaronWF
06-14-2012, 17:18
Not sure what kind of information you're looking for. How's this, fellow Chicagoan, invite me over for a taste?!

I know that Julian bottled a red wax bottle distilled in 1974 with a label similar to the VWFRR label, so it looks like the bourbon here came from the same batch. Obviously, I have no idea how many cases were shipped to Japan, but from what I've read, the stuff released in the US is an excellent example of aged Stitzel-Weller bourbon.

This is the kind of stuff you open up to taste and share with fellow enthusiasts. I know I would love the pleasure!

What are the circumstances leading to your acquisition?

BFerguson
06-14-2012, 17:47
Not sure about whats in the bottle, but don't let Maker's see it.

Maybe we'll get lucky and Julian will chime in about it.

Nice find.

B

clingman71
06-14-2012, 17:51
I'll be in Chicago in two weeks, I offer my services for a "hands-on" tasting and opinion.

passthebourbon
06-14-2012, 19:39
Not sure what kind of information you're looking for. How's this, fellow Chicagoan, invite me over for a taste?!

I know that Julian bottled a red wax bottle distilled in 1974 with a label similar to the VWFRR label, so it looks like the bourbon here came from the same batch. Obviously, I have no idea how many cases were shipped to Japan, but from what I've read, the stuff released in the US is an excellent example of aged Stitzel-Weller bourbon.

I have seen a 16 yo red wax, maybe this is the one you are referring to. Heard great things about that bottle, but those threads seem to indicate that was the only red wax done due to the MM patent.


This is the kind of stuff you open up to taste and share with fellow enthusiasts. I know I would love the pleasure!

What are the circumstances leading to your acquisition?

Fellow SB exchange. Quick edit: 3rd quoted paragraph is my response. iPhone mishap.

cigarnv
06-15-2012, 05:42
Hi Everyone,

Hoping some of the collector's/guru's could help dig up some info on the attached bottle. Looked all over the internet and keep coming up short. Hoping to find information on number of cases shipped to Japan, if anyone has tasted this I'd love to know what you thought of it, and any other information you think would be helpful.

Hope the pic's came out alright...had to do some editing!

Cheers,
Pete

I suspect if Randy see's this he will be able to provide some details... I would guess he probably has a few tucked away...

sailor22
06-15-2012, 06:26
Seems like I heard somewhere recently that the VW red wax pre dated the MM use of red wax. Perhaps a bourbon historian can chime in on that one.

Kalessin
06-15-2012, 07:26
Seems like I heard somewhere recently that the VW red wax pre dated the MM use of red wax. Perhaps a bourbon historian can chime in on that one.

Was any bourbon wax-sealed in the 20th century before MM started selling their product in 1958? I'm not positive, but that's my impression from everything i've seen over the years.

timd
06-15-2012, 07:40
Never seen that one before... and 101 proof? First I've seen that ABV on a VW product.

Interesting find... what can you tell us about where you scored it, etc.?

Very, very cool.

dridge11
06-15-2012, 07:44
Was any bourbon wax-sealed in the 20th century before MM started selling their product in 1958? I'm not positive, but that's my impression from everything i've seen over the years.

Yes, I have some stuff from 1900-1911 that has red wax seals, JB Beam, Old Charter, and Boone's Knoll.

Also, OP, very cool bottle, thanks for sharing. Never seen that one before, hope I do again some day.

StraightBoston
06-15-2012, 10:54
That's a nice one! It might take some clever iterations of the search function here but I think you'll find some other examples.

I'm aware of (i.e. in possession of) the 15yo undated version with the label that looks like VWFRR (minus the second "R") and the dripping red wax and I know others have dated versions similar to this.

Regarding the dripping red wax, by definition all VW products came out long after MM started their thing, but a combination of export-only, company size, and family/brand history kept away an injunction as I understand it. (Cuervo had none of the above to fall back on.)

Tasting notes: best S-W I've ever had. Rich, cherry-burnt-butter nose and brandy-like finish.

StraightBoston
06-15-2012, 10:59
So I did a little searching of my own and came across this post (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224305&postcount=23) by doubleblank whom I consider authoritative for VW products of the era.

Look's like you've got some Boone whiskey, kin to the first Pappy 20 release!

passthebourbon
06-15-2012, 11:34
So I did a little searching of my own and came across this post (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224305&postcount=23) by doubleblank whom I consider authoritative for VW products of the era.

Look's like you've got some Boone whiskey, kin to the first Pappy 20 release!

Kevin - Thank you for digging up such great information. Your info and tasting notes are exactly the stuff I was looking for. Puts my internet search skills to shame (but that isn't a huge compliment :grin: )

Just to confirm, were those tasting notes on the unlabelled 15, or the 17 yo?

gblick
06-15-2012, 12:11
I can't offer any info/knowledge, but I did notice that TomH has a VW with red wax on his shelf... http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12897&page=38

MacinJosh
06-17-2012, 20:21
That is some sexy bourbon porn right there. Very nice find!

Randy or Tom might be able to provide you with a little more information about the specific label. I'll point this thread out to them just in case they missed it.

Mike Veach & Chuck Cowdery are well known bourbon historians. They might be able to provide some insight for practices in that era. I'll see Mike next month and can ask him then.

Again, great find!

TomH
06-18-2012, 04:53
Really don't have any info on that label. I do have a dripping wax bottle but it was distilled in 1970.

jvanwinkle
06-21-2012, 12:56
I bottled that whiskey for sale to a Japanese customer, from December, 1990 to March of 1992. Shipped a total of about 1,500 cases total. I used the red wax & got away with it because it was export & MM only had the trademark for the US. Bottled a 17 year also.
The whiskey was from the Old Boone Distillery, now long gone.
Julian

passthebourbon
06-21-2012, 13:37
I bottled that whiskey for sale to a Japanese customer, from December, 1990 to March of 1992. Shipped a total of about 1,500 cases total. I used the red wax & got away with it because it was export & MM only had the trademark for the US. Bottled a 17 year also.
The whiskey was from the Old Boone Distillery, now long gone.
Julian

Julian,

Thank you for providing these details, I, and I'm sure many others, really appreciate it.

Could you answer me two more questions?

1. Does a case = 12? I know Stagg comes in a 3 bottle case, as do some of the current Pappy offerings (I believe)...so I'm just curious

&

2. When you said "Bottled a 17 year also," what did you mean by that as this bottle is a 17 year.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

Cheers,
Pete

smokinjoe
06-21-2012, 14:06
I bottled that whiskey for sale to a Japanese customer, from December, 1990 to March of 1992. Shipped a total of about 1,500 cases total. I used the red wax & got away with it because it was export & MM only had the trademark for the US. Bottled a 17 year also.
The whiskey was from the Old Boone Distillery, now long gone.
Julian

So, Mr. Van Winkle (if that's even your real name), which Japanese customer? Why so secretive on the name? Why not just be up front and tell us? :skep::skep::skep: And, about 1,500 cases????? Don't you know exactly how many cases it was? Why so coy? What are you trying to hide???? :skep::skep::skep: And, the bottling? When in December??? When in March???? Don't you have a calendar?? I know you couldn't have bottled in all of December, because you were closed on Christmas!!!!!! Hah!!!I demand to know!!!!!! I have a right to know!!!!! And, what's the real story behind losing the mustache??? And I don't want no cockamamy Thanksgiving story, Mr. marketinggenius. I want the TRUTH!!!!! And, why didn't Mr. Cowdery ask you about that?????? How much are you paying him for his silence????? Probably part of the BILLIONS you have made from your fancy bottles.

;)

B1bomber
06-21-2012, 15:21
That's interesting info on that red waxed bottle, Julian. I have a similar one, and I also have a different Van Winkle 17 year old, picture is attached. I've often wondered if there's any connection to the similarly labeled initial A. H. Hirsch 15 year olds. The two in this picture on the left bear similar labels, yet have different bottling dates, one being in September and the other February, both distilled in 1974. The Van Winkle 17 doesn't list dates, merely "Lot H." All have the same proof (95.6) and state Lawrenceburg, as you'll see on the labels.

Any info on any of these, the Van Winkle or the Hirsch's is appreciated!

1372213723

passthebourbon
06-21-2012, 19:01
So, Mr. Van Winkle (if that's even your real name), which Japanese customer? Why so secretive on the name? Why not just be up front and tell us? :skep::skep::skep: And, about 1,500 cases????? Don't you know exactly how many cases it was? Why so coy? What are you trying to hide???? :skep::skep::skep: And, the bottling? When in December??? When in March???? Don't you have a calendar?? I know you couldn't have bottled in all of December, because you were closed on Christmas!!!!!! Hah!!!I demand to know!!!!!! I have a right to know!!!!! And, what's the real story behind losing the mustache??? And I don't want no cockamamy Thanksgiving story, Mr. marketinggenius. I want the TRUTH!!!!! And, why didn't Mr. Cowdery ask you about that?????? How much are you paying him for his silence????? Probably part of the BILLIONS you have made from your fancy bottles.

;)

Read this earlier on the train and burst out laughing. Well written...

Restaurant man
06-21-2012, 19:13
So, Mr. Van Winkle (if that's even your real name), which Japanese customer? Why so secretive on the name? Why not just be up front and tell us? http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/skep.gifhttp://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/skep.gifhttp://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/skep.gif And, about 1,500 cases????? Don't you know exactly how many cases it was? Why so coy? What are you trying to hide???? http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/skep.gifhttp://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/skep.gifhttp://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/skep.gif And, the bottling? When in December??? When in March???? Don't you have a calendar?? I know you couldn't have bottled in all of December, because you wereclosed on Christmas!!!!!! Hah!!!I demand to know!!!!!! I have a right to know!!!!! And, what's the real story behind losing the mustache??? And I don't want no cockamamy Thanksgiving story, Mr. marketinggenius. I want the TRUTH!!!!! And, why didn't Mr. Cowdery ask you about that?????? How much are you paying him for his silence????? Probably part of the BILLIONS you have made from your fancy bottles.


It had to be said joe! Thank yu for your fearless reporting. Although this will be your last interview ever of a (living) bourbon icon. You will live out your days knowing that no one can call you a punk! :skep:

jvanwinkle
06-27-2012, 12:35
So I take the time to look up the info on that OLD bottling & this is what I get?
Why did I even bother trying?
Never again.

mosugoji64
06-27-2012, 12:54
So I take the time to look up the info on that OLD bottling & this is what I get?
Why did I even bother trying?
Never again.

That was pure sarcasm, Julian. Just a comment on some of the paranoia that has crept into postings lately, not a dig on you. Hope you'll continue to provide us with some valuable info.

Restaurant man
06-27-2012, 20:44
So I take the time to look up the info on that OLD bottling & this is what I get?
Why did I even bother trying?
Never again.

Im just hoping that jvanwinkle was trying to match sarcastic comments with smokinjoe. Otherwise I'll be forced to cut joe out of my bourbon Will

callmeox
06-28-2012, 04:14
OK, who is going to reach out to Julian to explain?

smokinjoe
06-28-2012, 05:48
Ouch...
Cancellations to GBS are running at 98%. BTW, thanks for hangin' in there with me O...
Wife has filed for divorce...
Dog bit me...
Demoted at work...
Chuck's GBS Project is now simply The Project...
My reservation at the General Nelson in September has mysteriously "disappeared"...wait....that happens all the time anyway...
Elmer T, and Jimmy Russell have called to tell me that they will kick my ass if I ever set foot in Kentucky again.
My nomination to become a Kentucky Colonel has been shredded, and returned to me...
I woke up in my hotel this morning with a horses head next to me...
One bright spot, though...apparently, I've been fast-tracked for membership into the Georgia Infused-Vodka Society...thanks Jimmy!!!

doubleblank
06-28-2012, 05:48
Sorry for being late to the discussion. As Julian already posted, it's from the Boone Distillery bottled for the Japanese market. I acquired my bottle from Julian's collection via the Getz Museum Charity Auction.

A more interesting note which begs for a side-by-side tasting........this is the same whiskey he put in his original Pappy 20yo, simply done a few years earlier. So if you have an original Pappy 20yo green glass bottle, open them up and do a comparison. It's what I intend to do when I open it.

Julian also did some red wax tendril bottlings in the early '80's. Probably before MM started protecting their trade dress.

Randy

doubleblank
06-28-2012, 06:59
That's interesting info on that red waxed bottle, Julian. I have a similar one, and I also have a different Van Winkle 17 year old, picture is attached. I've often wondered if there's any connection to the similarly labeled initial A. H. Hirsch 15 year olds. The two in this picture on the left bear similar labels, yet have different bottling dates, one being in September and the other February, both distilled in 1974. The Van Winkle 17 doesn't list dates, merely "Lot H." All have the same proof (95.6) and state Lawrenceburg, as you'll see on the labels.

Any info on any of these, the Van Winkle or the Hirsch's is appreciated!

1372213723

Those Hirsch bottlings are some of the many iterations Julian did while bottling the whiskey from the Michters Distillery. I have seen approximately 10 different labels Julian used to bottle the Michters ranging from 15 to 20 year old representations. The "blue wax" and "gold wax" versions of the Hirsch 16yo are probably the most common (relatively) AND highly collectible ones seen. The "gold foil" topped bottles are still available at retail, but not considered in the same league as earlier releases.

I don't recall what might be inside the Lot H 17yo bottle.

Randy

B1bomber
06-28-2012, 08:55
Thanks for chiming in, Randy. Appreciate you shedding some light on this. Here's a better family portrait. Would be great to know if they shared common juice, or just coincidental labels (and locations, proofs, etc). The conspiracy theorist in me has to wonder if "Lot H" doesn't refer to "Hirsch." Crazy notion, I'm sure.
As for Julian, I gotta say, I didn't immediately read that as sarcasm myself. I ultimately concluded it must be, and hope he does as well. Would be great to get his thoughts on these. Julian?

Thanks again, Randy.

13757

passthebourbon
06-28-2012, 19:12
So if you have an original Pappy 20yo green glass bottle, open them up and do a comparison. It's what I intend to do when I open it.


Randy

Thanks for weighing in Randy.

I've read a few different posts on the green glass Pappy's, however there are none occupying my bunker. I also don't recall ever seeing any. If you have time, would you mind snapping a pic and showing us what some of the green glass Pappy's look like?

All other green glass, or any other one off's like what B1 included are more than welcome.

Cheers,
Pete

p_elliott
06-28-2012, 23:06
OK, who is going to reach out to Julian to explain?

I did I sent a PM I didn't tell him a screwball Joe was I just couldn't put that into words. Just Kidding I know what Joe meant by that post and I told Julian that.

doubleblank
06-29-2012, 09:23
The green glass Pappy's look just like the regular Pappy's.....except when you hold the bottles besides each other up to a light. You'll then see the slightly green tint in the bottle's glass. Can't mis it.

Julian would, on occasion, put together a batch of whiskey to be bottled and then start bottling the stuff but using different labels depending on what his market wanted. For example, he would begin bottling his VWFR Rye 13yo and then switch over to doing his ORVW 12yo Old Time Rye from the same stuff. Some markets wanted the rustic look of the squat bottle and "aged" label versus the cognac shaped bottle.

Knowing this and from looking at B1's bottles ..... I'd say there is a good chance it's all from the Michters whiskey he had.

jvanwinkle
06-29-2012, 12:19
Oh I get it now! Sarcasm.
I must be a bit paranoid with all these idiots on the net these days. Everything is cool.

smokinjoe
06-29-2012, 15:40
Great. Glad to hear that you know there was nothing directed at you in my post. Not sarcasm actually, but more like lampooning the conspiracists among us. But, I should polish up my smilie skills. :D

And, hopefully the distributor was just misinformed when he told me that the Georgia allocation of the Fall Release of Pappys was very recently cancelled due to some..."misunderstanding"...;)

jvanwinkle
06-30-2012, 05:13
Yep, we'll be shipping GA in October just like everybody else.