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wadewood
09-01-2012, 09:47
OK, stopped by Specs last Thursday and they were promoting a new "Texas" Bourbon. I follow the craft movement pretty well here in Texas and never heard of this product. It's called 1835 Bourbon Whiskey. No age statement, so assuming it's at least 4 years old for $27. I'm 99.99% sure this was not distilled in the State of Texas, but bottle states "Texas Made". You can see the COLA info and label here:

https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=12018001000474

It does say Bottled in Lewisville, TX. IMHO, stating "Texas Made" on something that was just bottled here is very deceptive. Goggling North Texas Distillers LLC found a blank webpage, but also a connection to Delos Vodka, which apparently makes a vodka using a vacuum still.

FYI, later that night stopped by Poison Girl and Scott poured me a taste of this. It would be an OK bourbon at $11, which is where you can find several lower end KY brands priced at.

redbear
09-01-2012, 12:06
My Specs was promoting this (hard!) last weekend. They were even getting out samples. I didn't enjoy it. Tasted young and uninteresting.

StraightNoChaser
09-02-2012, 11:09
Ugh. This just makes me sick. They want to invoke Texas "pride" and "independence" yet the product obviously represents the exact opposite.

Lewisville is only 15 minutes from me, maybe I'll just show up. With dogs.

StraightNoChaser
09-02-2012, 11:15
How do these people sleep at night?

How is it even legal to put something like "Texas Made" on your bottle when it couldn't be further from the truth.

wadewood
09-02-2012, 17:51
How is it even legal to put something like "Texas Made" on your bottle when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Well, I question if it is legal. "The label is in any way misleading or deceptive as to the actual State ofdistillation" - http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam.shtml - Ch1. section 14

But I'm already involved in one quest, so would love if you took this over with your dogs!

FYI - I did email to the email in COLA filing asking if fermented or distilled in TX. No response back so far.

AaronWF
09-03-2012, 06:40
OK, stopped by Specs last Thursday and they were promoting a new "Texas" Bourbon. I follow the craft movement pretty well here in Texas and never heard of this product. It's called 1835 Bourbon Whiskey. No age statement, so assuming it's at least 4 years old for $27. I'm 99.99% sure this was not distilled in the State of Texas, but bottle states "Texas Made". You can see the COLA info and label

They're not calling it a straight bourbon, so it isn't likely to be a day over two years old, though probably younger.

sku
09-03-2012, 06:54
Well, I question if it is legal. "The label is in any way misleading or deceptive as to the actual State ofdistillation" - http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam.shtml - Ch1. section 14

But I'm already involved in one quest, so would love if you took this over with your dogs!

FYI - I did email to the email in COLA filing asking if fermented or distilled in TX. No response back so far.

I actually made an inquiry with the TTB about why they don't seem to be enforcing the rule that a whiskey label must show the state of distillation (based on other bottles I've seen). I've not heard back from them yet.

That being said, how do you know this isn't Texas made. There are a fair number of distilleries in Texas these days. Couldn't it be something distilled by Garrison's or one of the other micros?

StraightNoChaser
09-03-2012, 08:28
If it were made in Texas I suspect the label would say "Texas Bourbon"

wadewood
09-03-2012, 17:48
They're not calling it a straight bourbon, so it isn't likely to be a day over two years old, though probably younger.

Someone set me straight. I'm reading Ch. 8 of the TTB on Age Statements, and it's look to me if under 4 years, an age statement is required. This applies to both Bourbon and Straight Bourbon. That is why I said this has to be at least 4 years old.

bad_scientist
09-03-2012, 18:47
But I'm already involved in one quest, so would love if you took this over with your dogs!


What is your current quest?

cowdery
09-03-2012, 19:34
Someone set me straight. I'm reading Ch. 8 of the TTB on Age Statements, and it's look to me if under 4 years, an age statement is required. This applies to both Bourbon and Straight Bourbon. That is why I said this has to be at least 4 years old.

I concur.

Although TTB's workload has grown significantly, they haven't been able to add people, so they're very pressed and making mistakes. They rely on voluntary compliance, which indirectly means they rely on competitors and the public to tell them when they get something wrong. I have an article about this in the next issue of Whisky Advocate, which probably won't appear until November or so.

redbear
09-03-2012, 19:59
The cached version of the website says:

North Texas Distillers is a micro distillery that hand makes small batches from scratch. The raw ingredients for most of the brands created is a combination of Texas wheat and rye that is purchased from local farmers. The distillery operates two stills named Izzy and Calvin which use a vacuum system to create a smoother and cleaner final product. A small lab allows the Master Distiller to constantly fine tune the formula in an effort to make each batch smoother and better. This operation is focused on quality over quantity, requiring each employee to spend more time and detail on each step of the process.

Visitors experiencing a tour will first find an old western saloon atmosphere in the lobby. When entering the distillery the stills and fermentation tanks demand attention with their stainless steel finish and size. Each fermentor and still has a name printed on the front after family members of the founder and employees. This touch adds a little personality and self pride during the creation of each batch.

Along the entire tour one will see Texas flags hanging from the ceiling and walls. Each flag has flown over the state of Texas at some point in history and represents dedication and perseverance. Next on the tour is the bottling room which has employees signing the batch # and their names on each cork band placed on the bottles. By the exit, displayed on a wall between two flags is a hanging white blanket. Each person visiting the distillery is required to sign the blanket, the blankets are taken down each year and hung around the room's perimeter to display the individuals that have taken the time to visit our operation and who are now considered friends and ambassadors. Finally, on the way out a picture is taken with visitors wearing cowboy hats and vests while sampling DeLos Vodka, Lome Star Vodka and several others. The distillery not only offers a tour but an experience in personal pride and dedication to creating and packaging each brand

wadewood
09-04-2012, 06:02
The cached version of the website says

That's pretty similar to the language on their vodka website - http://www.delosvodka.com/about.html

From what I can tell about the Vodka - it was launched in Summer of 2009. If they stated distilling around then, no way would they have 4 year old bourbon ready for sale.

StraightNoChaser
09-04-2012, 08:33
I was always under the impression this only applied to straight bourbon aged less than 4 years. I could be wrong, I'll check my notes

redbear
09-04-2012, 08:36
The flavor description on the label is not at all what I tasted. It has a sweet start, but it didn't deliver much after that. Young, and thin flavor.

StraightNoChaser
09-04-2012, 08:38
I have the day off Saturday, maybe I'll just roll over there any knock on the door :D

redbear
09-04-2012, 08:45
Page 8-13 sure makes it clear.
http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter8.pdf

CLASS/TYPE: WHISKY (BOURBON)

IS A SPECIFIC STATEMENT OF AGE ALLOWED?


YES - A specific statement of age is REQUIRED if the bourbon whisky is less than 4 years old

Leopold
09-04-2012, 09:54
The age requirement is only for Straight Whiskey. Not for Whiskey. I

timd
09-04-2012, 10:48
I have it on good authority (from Specs - who is featuring this expression, so they have to push it) that this is Kentucky bourbon with Texas water added. They blend it here with water (no GNS, however) and claim it to be a "Texas product" because they "mixed it" here... The whiskey is 100% from Kentucky.

Not to be too blunt, but they are liars - just as the TX from F&R is a scam.

It's as "Texas" as Texas Crown (Canadian Whisky!) is....

redbear
09-04-2012, 11:45
The age requirement is only for Straight Whiskey. Not for Whiskey. I

I'm no expert, for sure. However, the document spells out straight bourbon separately.
CLASS/TYPE: WHISKY (STRAIGHT BOURBON)

IS A SPECIFIC STATEMENT OF AGE ALLOWED?
YES - A specific statement of age is REQUIRED if the straight bourbon whisky is less than 4 years old

Now, this doesn't mean the TTB got it right in the document. However, the document clearly states that an age statement is required for both bourbon whiskey (which the 1835 is) and straight bourbon whiskey (when less than 4 years old).

wadewood
09-04-2012, 12:33
The age requirement is only for Straight Whiskey. Not for Whiskey. I

We traded a PM about this. The TTB BAM is a guideline, not the actually law. For the law, look at CFR, section 27. I read CFR section 27, 5.40 section d and still think an age statement is required.

Also 5.36 section d implies the State of Distillation shall be shown on the label.

redbear
09-04-2012, 13:01
It may not be the law, but if they are the ones approving the labels... should they not be following their own guidelines? Crazy time! :rolleyes:

smknjoe
01-18-2013, 17:48
My Specs was promoting this (hard!) last weekend. They were even getting out samples. I didn't enjoy it. Tasted young and uninteresting.

They were at it again when I went there today. I tried it and it was especially rough on the finish. I asked if they knew how old it was and the lady said she wasn't sure but she thought that bourbon only had to be aged 3 years without needing an age statement. I'm sure they'll sell a ton of it though because it's "from" Texas.

tdig
03-27-2013, 10:23
Apparently this just picked up a double gold in SF.

smknjoe
03-27-2013, 10:34
Nobody's taste is as good as mine :grin:. It seems like every bourbon out there that's more than $20 has won something there.

redbear
03-27-2013, 11:29
My curiosity piqued, I started poking around some more. Looking at the COLA, they list DSP-TX-15017. I did some searching around and found this list of DSPs published by the TTB: http://www.ttb.gov/foia/xls/frl-spirits-producers-and-bottlers.htm

TX-15017 is listed as Ranger Creek brewing. Ranger Creek is in San Antonio, not Lewisville. They do make their own whiskey. http://www.drinkrangercreek.com/whiskey/

Anyone want to hazard a guess on what the relationship is between North Texas Distillers (who aren't on the DSP listing at all) and Ranger Creek?

Fred Minnick's article says the trademarks indicate that the distiller is the Quentin D Witherspoon distillery. That is on the DSP list as TX-S-20009.

redbear
03-27-2013, 11:57
Looks like I can't let this one go.

I emailed the Secretary of State for information on the LLC. I'll leave out the personal contact info, but here is the general LLC information:

Name: North Texas Distillers, LLC
Filing Number: 801010086
Entity Type: Domestic Limited Liability Company (LLC)
Original Date of Filing: July 29, 2008
Entity Status: In existence
Formation Date: N/A
Tax ID: 32037625640
FEIN:
Duration: Perpetual

Address: 845 N MILL ST STE 100
LEWISVILLE, TX 75057-3170 USA

They filed as an LLC in July of 2008. So, theoretically, they could have 4 year old whiskey in the bottle. The COLA was filed in march of 2012, which was previous to July of 2012.

wadewood
03-27-2013, 13:19
My curiosity piqued, I started poking around some more. Looking at the COLA, they list DSP-TX-15017. I did some searching around and found this list of DSPs published by the TTB: http://www.ttb.gov/foia/xls/frl-spirits-producers-and-bottlers.htm

TX-15017 is listed as Ranger Creek brewing. Ranger Creek is in San Antonio, not Lewisville. They do make their own whiskey. http://www.drinkrangercreek.com/whiskey/

Anyone want to hazard a guess on what the relationship is between North Texas Distillers (who aren't on the DSP listing at all) and Ranger Creek?

Fred Minnick's article says the trademarks indicate that the distiller is the Quentin D Witherspoon distillery. That is on the DSP list as TX-S-20009.

I'm pretty sure Ranger Creek's DSP is TX-15024.

HighInTheMtns
03-27-2013, 13:22
I'm pretty sure Ranger Creek's DSP is TX-15024.
It's from the list at ttb.gov that he linked. 15024 is listed as Yellow Rose Distilling. But look at the DSP-KY numbers on the same list... Not the ones we are familiar with.

wadewood
03-27-2013, 13:24
My curiosity piqued, I started poking around some more. Looking at the COLA, they list DSP-TX-15017. I did some searching around and found this list of DSPs published by the TTB: http://www.ttb.gov/foia/xls/frl-spirits-producers-and-bottlers.htm


OK, I looked at that list and I will tell it's flat out wrong. Example Balcones is TX-15018 and this list has it as 15011.

fminnick
03-27-2013, 15:12
Hi, all, this is my very first post about here. It appears my bourbon was off by one digit. 1836 bourbon is trademarked the Quentin D Witherspoon. http://www.trademarkia.com/1836-whisky-86-proof43-abv-quentin-d-witherspoon-distillery-lewisville-texas-85448405.html

1835 is indeed trademarked by North Texas.

I will make correction on my site. Thanks, fellas.

wadewood
03-27-2013, 21:16
Hi, all, this is my very first post about here. It appears my bourbon was off by one digit. 1836 bourbon is trademarked the Quentin D Witherspoon. http://www.trademarkia.com/1836-whisky-86-proof43-abv-quentin-d-witherspoon-distillery-lewisville-texas-85448405.html

1835 is indeed trademarked by North Texas.

I will make correction on my site. Thanks, fellas.

and what is your site?

Woodford'sMark
03-27-2013, 21:35
Too young of a bourbon IMHO. Should have aged it the few extra years. I'll stick to "Kentucky Tea" :grin:

redbear
03-28-2013, 11:47
and what is your site?

He was referring to the caption for the last image in this article: http://fredminnick.com/the-inside-story-to-best-bourbon-at-the-san-francisco-world-spirits-competition/

michang5
04-10-2013, 09:03
Fairly recent lurker, first time poster.

I'm a bit confused on how to perceive 1835 Bourbon. It seems to encapsulate so many of the themes I've seen discussed here and on other bourbon sites:

- Sourced vs. distilled at location -- Seems that this is clearly sourced, but I can't say I'm offended by it. Many sourced bourbons are well regarded. I'm happy with my Jefferson's Reserve.

- Real Texas vs. Texas-washing -- Having spent nearly 35 years in Central Texas, I can say I take pride in my state. I love the Longhorns, but I don't walk around wearing boots and a Texas flag. That said, I appreciate that it is bottled in Texas. Would I like it more if it were distilled here? Sure. Is it dishonest? Maybe a bit, but after reading Mike Veach's book, I choose to take it as "history by marketing."

- Crappy vs. good drink -- I saw this at my local Spec's before I started my bourbon journey a few months back. I turned down a sample offering that day. Then I started drinking and researching bourbons and felt validated in my refusal after seeing the reviews here and elsewhere. But then I saw Mr. Minnick's recap of SF World Spirits Competition (http://fredminnick.com/the-inside-story-to-best-bourbon-at-the-san-francisco-world-spirits-competition/). At the bottom is clearly a pic of 1835. Based on this write up, I quickly picked up a bottle.

Granted my exposure to bourbons hasn't been very long, but it has been very intense. I've done blind taste tests at home with 12+ bottles. I keep copious notes. I know what I like (I'm a fan of sweeter bourbons; Rock Hill Farms is my #1; Weller 12 is my favorite value bourbon; I hated my flask of Knob Creek Small Batch). And I quite liked 1835. It handily beat Four Roses Small Batch in my blind test. It didn't beat RHF, but was more than respectable.

I find it odd that the variance is so high. It's either crap or Top 3 or 5. How can it be so wide a gap?

- Personal preference vs. group mentality -- I'm curious to see how perception of 1835 changes based on the SF recap. Maybe it won't because I don't see any promotion of the recap by the makers of 1835. If Mr. Minnick's spark doesn't catch fire, then the existing negative perceptions will remain. I look forward to more taste comparisons to see if 1835 holds up for me over time. Maybe my palate isn't developed enough. Maybe the SF panel just went crazy that weekend. Maybe the reviewers to date have been too harsh.

--------

I'd love to hear thoughts from the forum.

squire
04-10-2013, 19:02
Hello michang5, welcome aboard. No perceptions on my part, I just drink what I like. I am not however tempted by mystery whiskys of undisclosed provenance.

michang5
04-28-2013, 07:34
To close the feedback loop... My impressions of 1835 has soured significantly. I've started experiencing a mid-palate "shiver" whenever I try this neat. I notice it when mixed in Old Fashioneds, too. I won't be getting this again. No matter how much discounting Spec's does.

fminnick
05-06-2013, 18:30
To close the feedback loop... My impressions of 1835 has soured significantly. I've started experiencing a mid-palate "shiver" whenever I try this neat. I notice it when mixed in Old Fashioneds, too. I won't be getting this again. No matter how much discounting Spec's does.
Thanks for the update. I've contacted them twice in hopes of learning more about the whiskey, but I've not heard anything. I'll be sure to post an update as soon as I learn more about 1835.

Balcones Winston
05-10-2013, 09:23
Thanks for the update. I've contacted them twice in hopes of learning more about the whiskey, but I've not heard anything. I'll be sure to post an update as soon as I learn more about 1835.
I live 20 minutes from their "distillery"

Shall I go make a visit? :D

timd
05-10-2013, 09:37
I live 20 minutes from their "distillery"

Shall I go make a visit? :D

I'll go with you - I've asked them about a visit before at a few local "Texas tastings" and they've been amenable to it - just not sure what they have there to actually see!

Nice enough guys even if they don't actually "make" anything.

At least they aren't like the Red River guy who patently lied to my face (and on their bottle) about their product!

buoy37
12-11-2013, 20:45
Sorry to dredge up an old post...

I read through this thread and smiled. You guys dug in on the 1835 "Texas" whiskey pretty hard. Earlier this year, I had to call the local Spec's staff out on it. Everytime I walked down the whiskey isle, I was asked by an employee (more often the same guy) if I had tried the new 1835. I finally asked why could I not stand in this isle without being asked about the 1835. I asked him where it was distilled. I pointed at real KY bourbons and told them where they were distilled. I even told him where the Garrison and Balcones was distilled. Now when he sees me, he just says "Hi!" and we shake hands. I know the staff is just doing their job. What bothers me is when I see people asking for help on selecting their first bourbon and the 1835 is what is put in there hands.

....and I guess I was a little bothered that as a customer that visited the store weekly (sometimes twice a week) the same clerk put more effort into pushing the 1835 on me vs. recognizing me as a repeat customer that has told him no several times.

wadewood
12-11-2013, 21:26
Sorry to dredge up an old post...

I read through this thread and smiled. You guys dug in on the 1835 "Texas" whiskey pretty hard. Earlier this year, I had to call the local Spec's staff out on it. Everytime I walked down the whiskey isle, I was asked by an employee (more often the same guy) if I had tried the new 1835. I finally asked why could I not stand in this isle without being asked about the 1835. I asked him where it was distilled. I pointed at real KY bourbons and told them where they were distilled. I even told him where the Garrison and Balcones was distilled. Now when he sees me, he just says "Hi!" and we shake hands. I know the staff is just doing their job. What bothers me is when I see people asking for help on selecting their first bourbon and the 1835 is what is put in there hands.

....and I guess I was a little bothered that as a customer that visited the store weekly (sometimes twice a week) the same clerk put more effort into pushing the 1835 on me vs. recognizing me as a repeat customer that has told him no several times.

This is also a Specs "house" brand. What I mean by that is Specs and wholesaler (Texas is 3 tier state) have a very friendly (and IMHO possible illegal) relationship, where this brand is practically sold exclusive in Specs. They probably pay their sales people on commission to push this brand.

squire
12-11-2013, 22:18
That explains a lot.

BlackPrairie
12-12-2013, 19:16
I was gifted a bottle of 1835 last year around this time. I have family members that are quite proud of their Texas roots. I can't say that I blame them. But after we all shared a pour of this "bourbon", they considered becoming Mississippians.

I can't say I blame them for that either.

BoyScout
02-19-2014, 14:18
I have to weigh in here - traveling in Houston this week and a Specs showed up on the service road, went it, not a great selection, I was about to pick up an ER10 when they started pushing 1835. I relented, for $25 it was worth a try. I took it back to hotel to share with my travel group. Overall I have to say we enjoyed it. A high rye, spicy in flavor and relatively smooth. I've tasted much much worse. I've been known to throw bottles I don't like down the sink or use them for fire starter. After reading all this post I have to suggest it is an LDI juice with a Texas label.

squire
02-19-2014, 14:35
LDI/MGP makes a decent grade Bourbon but I would've chosen Evan Williams or Jim Beam at half the price. I mention those because they are usually available in limited stock stores.

Junkpile
02-24-2014, 07:39
I was in Houston this past week on a business trip, and was staying across the street from a Spec's. I was talked into a bottle of 1835. Why they call this "bourbon," I have no idea. I've always been skeptical about anything labeled bourbon that isn't made in KY, but I was overly unimpressed with this stuff. I found it to be horribly sweet with something else in there that I couldn't place, real heavy cheap liquor smell to it, and a weak finish. Now, I normally drink Bulleit, Knob Creek, and recently got into Maker's, and from the description I got of 1835, I was really supposed to like it. Overall, I'd only call it ok, maybe on par with Beam white label.

I didnt even even bother bringing the bottle home.

squire
02-24-2014, 08:40
Chalk it up to experience Jp, I won't buy a bottle of Bourbon unless I know enough about it to make an informed choice, starting with who made it.

gblick
02-25-2014, 11:37
Strange, I go into Spec's often, and they never tried to push the 1835 off onto me.

wadewood
02-25-2014, 17:34
Strange, I go into Spec's often, and they never tried to push the 1835 off onto me. Have you ever asked for help finding a bottle of bourbon at Specs? and not I'm looking for xyz specific bottle, just I'm looking for a bourbon?

bearmark
02-25-2014, 17:52
We don't have that problem in Dallas… Simon Taylor, Sorin Trancau, Larry, Rudy and Vince are always reliable for a good recommendation.

dcbt
02-25-2014, 18:13
We don't have that problem in Dallas… Simon Taylor, Sorin Trancau, Larry, Rudy and Vince are always reliable for a good recommendation.

Simon is the one who basically told me I'm wasting my time and money by shopping at Spec's.
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?21570-Spec-s-and-the-premiums&highlight=spec%27s

bearmark
02-25-2014, 18:20
Simon is the one who basically told me I'm wasting my time and money by shopping at Spec's.
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?21570-Spec-s-and-the-premiums&highlight=spec%27s

If you're looking to score many bottles of special releases, then you're going to have to hit several places. Simon is usually fair in his distribution and tries to spread the joy around while taking care if his loyal customers. But this is off-topic.

If you're looking for a knowledgeable recommendation on whiskey, then talk to Simon or Sorin. They have different preferences and they both know their stuff. They've introduced me to some great stuff.

gblick
02-26-2014, 11:37
Have you ever asked for help finding a bottle of bourbon at Specs? and not I'm looking for xyz specific bottle, just I'm looking for a bourbon?No, I haven't, and that's probably why.

Ishad
02-27-2014, 09:54
Have you ever asked for help finding a bottle of bourbon at Specs? and not I'm looking for xyz specific bottle, just I'm looking for a bourbon?

I've done this a couple of times and so far the recommendations were: Willett Pot Still Reserve, Noah's Mill, and Pure Kentucky. I don't ask anymore.

dcbt
02-27-2014, 10:02
I've done this a couple of times and so far the recommendations were: Willett Pot Still Reserve, Noah's Mill, and Pure Kentucky. I don't ask anymore.

He pushed Rowan's Creek on me when I said I was just checking out the selection. I bought a bottle back when I was giving them my business but wasn't impressed enough to buy another anywhere since.

Edit to add I'm sure they just push the inventory they need to move...