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cazolman
09-07-2012, 19:16
Found a label approval on the COLA website for a George Dickel Rye.

https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=12234001000261

The label reads that it is chill filtered through sugar-maple charcoal, the typical Tennessee or Lincoln county process. Has this style of rye ever been released before? With rye so popular, I am a bit surprised that JD and GD have not already released something.

Chad

LostBottle
09-07-2012, 20:05
Bring it on, the more rye the better! That said, I really dislike those two words "chill filtered" - I know most do it, but it really neuters a whiskey.

Phil T
09-08-2012, 04:30
Looking at the label, this is the 95% rye mashbill from LDI/MGP. It will be, cut, filtered, and bottled at 90 proof.

It better have a damn good price point for us to buy it, when you consider Willett unfiltered, uncut is about 30 bucks a bottle

BFerguson
09-08-2012, 04:31
Looking at the label, it does't appear to be "from" them. Looks like another LDI/MGP sourced whiskey.

B

same thoughts, but beat my a minute to the posting!

cowdery
09-08-2012, 12:07
Interesting. Gentleman Jack is the only Tennessee whiskey that goes through the charcoal after aging. This is Bulleit Rye that's been Lincoln County-ized after aging. Wild stuff!

cazolman
09-08-2012, 17:40
So is it still considered the lincoln county process? Or must the charcoal filtering be done before going into the barrel?

It will be interesting to compare it to Bulleit Rye to see how the flavors change.

Chad

Josh
09-08-2012, 20:09
Maybe they could call this the Franklin County process?

MyOldKyDram
09-09-2012, 05:00
Would that make it a Frickel?

cowdery
09-09-2012, 08:45
So is it still considered the lincoln county process? Or must the charcoal filtering be done before going into the barrel?

It will be interesting to compare it to Bulleit Rye to see how the flavors change.

Chad

The Lincoln Country Process is nothing official. It's a pretty informal terminology, used by Daniel's primarily to refer to the pre-aging sugar maple filtration they do. Dickel uses smaller beds and chills the spirit first, but it's still new make. Charcoal filtering of this type is common and used to be even more common than it is now for whiskey. It's still used extensively for vodka.

In Dickel's case, I think it's a branding move as much as anything. What makes Tennessee Rye Tennessee? Well, there has to be some charcoal filtering involved, but since they wanted to use whiskey that's fully aged, they're doing it post-aging but can still point to it as "that Tennessee thing." Especially since this product wasn't made in Tennessee, they had to do something or else it would just be Bulleit in a Dickel bottle.

Charcoal filtering has many uses and I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of it.

MauiSon
09-10-2012, 03:44
I guess the real question is whether the process improves the product. Wait and see...

Brisko
09-10-2012, 07:42
Charcoal filtering has many uses and I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of it.

Heaven Hill's eponymous BiB proclaims "Every Drop Charcoal Filtered," and I think the other HH-branded bottlings have similar language. The current Beam's Choice (green label) also makes a point of stating "Charcoal Filtered" on the label.

With regard to these, I have always made a few assumptions: 1) that most bourbons are charcoal filtered to one extent or another, 2) that Beam and HH label these as such in an attempt to make some sort of brand association with JD, and 3) that Beam's and HH's processes have virtually nothing in common with JD. Is that accurate? In Beam's case they say that it is filtered before bottling and I always figured that was HH's deal too.

cowdery
09-10-2012, 08:51
Heaven Hill's eponymous BiB proclaims "Every Drop Charcoal Filtered," and I think the other HH-branded bottlings have similar language. The current Beam's Choice (green label) also makes a point of stating "Charcoal Filtered" on the label.

With regard to these, I have always made a few assumptions: 1) that most bourbons are charcoal filtered to one extent or another, 2) that Beam and HH label these as such in an attempt to make some sort of brand association with JD, and 3) that Beam's and HH's processes have virtually nothing in common with JD. Is that accurate? In Beam's case they say that it is filtered before bottling and I always figured that was HH's deal too.

Most whiskeys are chill-filtered before bottling to prevent chill haze. This usually involves a small amount of charcoal, tiny compared to what Daniel's or Dickel use, but charcoal nonetheless. So, yes, your assumptions are correct. Beam and HH, in an attempt to confuse the Daniel's drinker, use that tiny amount of charcoal contact to claim charcoal filtering.

Brisko
09-10-2012, 09:54
So when you say you expect to see more charcoal filtering, are you referring to pre- or post-aging?

cowdery
09-11-2012, 08:49
The things I'm hearing about are post-aging. I'm surprised the micros haven't discovered it before now. It can make some of their very young products a lot more palatable.

Tucker
10-11-2012, 11:29
Review samples have been sent out per John Hansell.

14319

Shell
10-14-2012, 12:52
Looking at the label, this is the 95% rye mashbill from LDI/MGP. It will be, cut, filtered, and bottled at 90 proof.

It better have a damn good price point for us to buy it, when you consider Willett unfiltered, uncut is about 30 bucks a bottle

I just saw George Dickey Rye listed on the MI state liquor price list with a state min. price of $23 (which is $3 less than Bulleit Rye). I don't know if it has hit the retail stores yet, but it should be fairly soon.

Shell

cowdery
10-14-2012, 14:05
It has been officially announced but, since it's just another iteration of LDI rye, we've all already tried it.

Josh
10-14-2012, 14:23
I had forgotten about this thread, but http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?14010-george-dickel-rye Tom called it.

Although I guess it raises the question of what was actually in that bottle, since the Dickel rye is actually LDI distillate.

cowdery
10-15-2012, 10:13
My assumption is that they bought LDI new make, ran it through their charcoal vats in Tullahoma, and barreled and aged it in Tullahoma, so Lunn did everything in Tullhoma except distill it.

Josh
10-15-2012, 10:20
My assumption is that they bought LDI new make, ran it through their charcoal vats in Tullahoma, and barreled and aged it in Tullahoma, so Lumm did everything in Tullhoma except distill it.

OK, from the thread I was assuming they just bought aged rye and then ran it through the charcoal before bottling.

cowdery
10-15-2012, 10:50
That might be right. I've looked over the promo materials and can't find a clue. They do say it's at least 5 years old. It's possible they were thinking about this in 2007. When was that video dated, where Lunn has the bottle on his desk? I've made an inquiry.

By the way, I like the $24.99 price point very much. Yet another reason to not buy Templeton.

T Comp
10-15-2012, 12:12
That might be right. I've looked over the promo materials and can't find a clue. They do say it's at least 5 years old. It's possible they were thinking about this in 2007. When was that video dated, where Lunn has the bottle on his desk? I've made an inquiry.

By the way, I like the $24.99 price point very much. Yet another reason to not buy Templeton.

The new Rye label states "We start with the finest distilled Rye whisky in the world. Then we finish it the classic way..." The No. 12 label specifies its "sweet maple mellowing" before "he sent it to age". If I can read any truth in the Rye label with the word "finish" it would be that it is being maple-charcoal filtered after barreling and before bottling. https://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/viewColaDetails.do?action=publicFormDisplay&ttbid=12234001000261

tmckenzie
10-16-2012, 03:57
I will try it, as I am a big dickel fan. I just wonder why in hell they did not just empty the fermenters in Tullahoma, make a rye mash and run it themselves. Could have made a good amount in a week. It being ldi takes a lot of the spirit out of the spirit.

Gillman
10-16-2012, 05:44
I agree with Tom, to go to all this other trouble seems odd when you can make it easily yourself, especially as Dickel has never been IIRC a full-year operation i.e., full operations every day except for any summer closing period. (And even if they were...). Anyway, at 5 years aged it should be good.

I doubt by the way it was put through the maple charcoal process after dumping. They would have done that before barreling almost certainly, but I could be wrong of course.

Gary

bourbonv
10-16-2012, 07:02
I had some of the rye in Chicago 2 weeks ago. It is LDI rye filtered through the charcoal vats at Dickel. It did give it a bit of a sweet and smokey taste i rather liked, but it was just one sip from the sample bottle. I would have liked to have spent more time with it.
Mike Veach

Lazer
10-16-2012, 07:10
If the cola is right and this is Lawrenceburg juice, then this is a huge disaster. GD no.12 is a fantastic whiskey and bulleit rye is not, in my opinion. This is such a let down. what a sad day for rye fans. :smiley_acbt:

On the upside, maybe this will bring more a attention to the GD brand and increase the availability of no. 12, that is, until they water it down or age it less or something.

Gillman
10-16-2012, 08:09
Mike, was it LDI white dog put through the maple charcoal and then barreled?

Gary

bourbonv
10-16-2012, 10:00
Gary,
It was aged rye that was filtered.
Mike Veach

Gillman
10-16-2012, 10:01
But aged how long?

Gary

cowdery
10-16-2012, 10:48
I got a sample yesterday and it tastes very different from, say, Bulleit Rye. The shock is that you expect filtering like that, especially after aging, to strip away flavor and simply give it a milder taste. Instead it really changes the flavor. Not sure if I can say I like it yet, but it's very flavorful and tastes nothing like anybody else's LDI rye. The main flavor I get, believe it or not, is grapefruit.

The word 'finish' implies something done to the aged spirit, but the term is not defined at law and so they might be using it loosely.

That is, however, the most likely scenario, as I doubt this was a from-scratch proposition. I imagine that they took some LDI rye, aged at LDI for (they say) at least five years, then chilled and charcoaled it in Tullahoma to make it Dickel. The unusual taste may be because of the filtering or it could be the barrel selection. My suspicion is that Diegeo owns a pipeline's worth of LDI whiskey that it bought for blending but is now using for some straights. That whiskey wouldn't show up in LDI's spreadsheets since it is already owned by Diageo.

Whatever success they have had with Bulleit Rye, it's fair to assume they will have the same success with Dickel, since most of the trial will be brand customers who want to try a rye.

The suggested price point, by the way, is a very reasonable $24.99.

Gillman
10-16-2012, 11:22
Well, so far it looks like Josh and Thad called this one, and kudos for that. Assuming, therefore, it was cold-filtered in the maple charcoal vats after 5 years aging (as opposed to being filtered as white dog, or whiskey not long in barrel - it would still be "rye whiskey" in that form) - I am surprised at this post-aging filtration. I know Gentleman Jack undergoes that process, but that surprised me too when I first learned of it. Yes, fully aged bourbon often is filtered in activated charcoal but I am puzzled why after a full four or five years of aging in new charred barrels, a Lincoln County or that type process would be deemed an improvement. This process is quite different to a short treatment in activated charcoal.

I find Gentleman the least interesting of all the Jack Daniel brands. It has a perfumy character I find off-putting. I cannot recall in historical sources that the maple charcoal process - once again the prolonged process as opposed to a quick charcoal polishing - was done after full barrel aging. It was done certainly before barrel aging, partially to accelerate the aging process. But that was done to white dog, not aged spirit. Now, maybe it was occasionally applied to fully aged barrel spirit but I cannot recall ever reading of an instance of this.

One often lauds the craft distillers for not being bound to tradition, but B-F was ahead of them in this respect in my opinion.

As always, palate is what counts, so I look forward to trying it.

The particular secondary constituents in LDI rye offer what to me is a "Blue Tide" effect: clean, breezy, almost salt sea or cleanser-like. That would have responded well in white dog form to the maple stack, IMO again. But I guess it wasn't done this way.

tmckenzie
10-16-2012, 17:33
The sample on his desk in the video I linked was white. I take that as being either they bought the white rye in, mellowed and aged and bottled it, or they tried to make rye and could not do it as they were simply not able to figure it out. Maybe the equipment was not setup for it and it did not make what they thought was good rye. Rye is not hard to make, but you have to figure it out. That stuff will drive you nuts. Hell, maybe it foamed over and they said forget this. I had a fermenter foam over one time and it was on a downhill slope towards a floor drain the rye came over never touched the drain, went uphill and went into another room. It is not for the light hearted.

HighInTheMtns
10-16-2012, 18:11
Yes, fully aged bourbon often is filtered in activated charcoal but I am puzzled why after a full four or five years of aging in new charred barrels, a Lincoln County or that type process would be deemed an improvement. This process is quite different to a short treatment in activated charcoal.
Correct me if I'm wrong; but GD's Lincoln County Process is significantly different from Jack Daniel's Lincoln County Process; perhaps the result on an aged whiskey is better with the GD process? I certainly agree with you about Gentleman Jack being (by far, IMO) the least interesting Jack.

More realistically, I have to speculate that Diageo didn't plan 5 years in advance for the GD Rye, and they wish to offer a decently-aged whiskey that has some noticeable "Dickel" characteristics. The LCP clearly both adds and removes flavors from whiskey; performing the LCP after dumping the barrels, particularly in the Dickel "fill the vat" manner, will certainly add some maple/Tennessee/Dickel character to the whiskey before it goes into the bottles. To me, the question is, is what was added more valuable than what was taken out?

Gillman
10-16-2012, 18:39
Well, it is true that Dickel's LCP is not quite the same as Brown-Forman's. But the differences have never really been identified here IIRC. I just recall that Diageo ensures the whiskey is dripped through a chilled vat, but as to how prolonged, and in relation to Jack Daniel's process, I don't really know, hence my statement that a "type" of LCP would seem atypical at least viewed historically.

Activated charcoal is neutral and "clean" is my understanding, whereas I would think burned maple wood would indeed add something to the spirit. It takes away oils and other secondary constituents of distillation by trapping them in small apertures. But after 4-5 years of new charred barrel aging, how much of those are left? So perhaps indeed it "gives" more than it takes when practiced at the end of the aging cycle. Yet Chuck has reported a grapefruit-like palate, which seems at odds with a maple sweetness... I don't know, and it's hard to comment further without tasting the stuff.

Gary

Josh
10-17-2012, 06:27
Correct me if I'm wrong; but GD's Lincoln County Process is significantly different from Jack Daniel's Lincoln County Process; perhaps the result on an aged whiskey is better with the GD process? I certainly agree with you about Gentleman Jack being (by far, IMO) the least interesting Jack.

More realistically, I have to speculate that Diageo didn't plan 5 years in advance for the GD Rye, and they wish to offer a decently-aged whiskey that has some noticeable "Dickel" characteristics. The LCP clearly both adds and removes flavors from whiskey; performing the LCP after dumping the barrels, particularly in the Dickel "fill the vat" manner, will certainly add some maple/Tennessee/Dickel character to the whiskey before it goes into the bottles. To me, the question is, is what was added more valuable than what was taken out?


Well, it is true that Dickel's LCP is not quite the same as Brown-Forman's. But the differences have never really been identified here IIRC. I just recall that Diageo ensures the whiskey is dripped through a chilled vat, but as to how prolonged, and in relation to Jack Daniel's process, I don't really know, hence my statement that a "type" of LCP would seem atypical at least viewed historically.


Gary

The difference is in the size and shape of the vats and the amount of charcoal used. Looking for the details.

UPDATE: According to this thread: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?14601-Things-tour-guides-say-George-Dickel

JD mellows in 10 ft of charcoal, Dickel in 21 ft. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Is that square feet? Is the the width or height of the vats? According another online source, JD has the spirit drip through the vat but at Dickel the vat is filled with spirit then emptied.

bourbonv
10-17-2012, 06:39
In the historical files at the U D Archive there was a file on pre-prohibition Dickel. It mentions that the maple charcoal changed the Ph of the whiskey taking it toward the more basic side of the scale, making the whiskey less acidic and more neutral. I suspect it does the same with aged whiskey. Dickel also chills the charcoal vats - I am not sure of the exact temperature, but I believe it is 65 degrees, so it will remove some of the vegetable oils from the whiskey as well, but to the extent as a chill filtration system that lowers the temperature to about 0 degrees. Kyle did not say how old the whiskey was but I thought maybe 5 or 6 years old from the taste I had that evening.

Mike Veach

silverfish
10-17-2012, 07:31
T
JD mellows in 10 ft of charcoal, Dickel in 21 ft. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Is that square feet? Is the the width or height of the vats? According another online source, JD has the spirit drip through the vat...

As far as the JD, I'm pretty sure the 10' is the height of the vat
(they are maybe 6 - 8' across?) Also, I believe JD does use the
"drip method".

Gillman
10-17-2012, 09:10
Mike, are you aware that any kind of maple charcoal immersion or leaching was practiced post-barrel aging before these two current examples (Gentleman Jack and the new Dickel Rye) let alone in the 1800's?

Again, I am open to the taste results, but just in terms of what went before, I can't recall this. I suppose you could view it as adding aging time at the end, just as it is said to at the beginning, but I am not sure it has the same effect in both instances. For example, what is the typical acid content of full aged whiskey...?

Gary

cowdery
10-17-2012, 11:13
Filtration through charcoal or bone dust was a common practice among rectifiers in the late 19th century, in both Canada and the United States.

The filtration vats at Daniel's are ten feet deep and the spirit is at ambient temperature. They're three feet deep at Dickel but the spirit is chilled before filtering, to just above freezing, like the chill filtering performed by most bourbons, although Dickel's method involves a lot more charcoal.

I've sampled the sample a bit more, and am getting more resemblance to other LDI ryes, but muted, which is what I'd expect from something that's filtered. I'm also still getting a major sour citrus note, part grapefruit, part pineapple.

Gillman
10-17-2012, 11:20
I have seen many references to filtration by charcoal, bone dust, etc. but this was given to new spirit to rectify it to a more neutral taste. I can't recall ever reading that it was done after a prolonged barrel aging, but maybe it was. (It doesn't really matter, but again just in terms of what went before...).

I continue to be intrigued by Chuck's taste notes, but I guess too every spirit will react differently to the treatment whether before or after normal barrel aging.

Canadian distillers in Toronto, e.g. Gooderham & Worts, used big vats of charcoal in a way essentially similar to LCP, but not after barrel aging in the warehouse - as far as I know again. E.g. in this account by Craig Heron, see pg. 91, he states that the spirit was given charcoal treatment to become common whiskey which would then be put away for warehouse aging or distilled again for a higher grade. I have seen illustrations of those charcoal vats and they were large wooden vats in which the whiskey was immersed clearly for a time, not dissimilar to the modern LCP. This was ground wood charcoal of some kind. I understand the modern activated carbon is made from coconut shells mainly and has no odour or taste. It has a large absorbtion capacity but vodka or bourbon is run through the filters rapidly, I don't think the two processes are really the same...

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=TozhJZ8RlWQC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=gooderham+%26+worts+charcoal+whisky&source=bl&ots=5ramRA6CCD&sig=KyYt8MaGpi7rwVccJTWO9HvKoYM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Rfd-UO-8FK

Gary

cowdery
10-18-2012, 16:33
A 19th century rectifier might have filtered whiskey that had some age on it if it hadn't aged very well, to render it more neutral and more suitable for blending. But, yes, it's unlikely that a well-aged whiskey would have been filtered in those days. Just trying to make the point that filtering through charcoal or bone dust has a long history in the industry. It wasn't invented in Lincoln County, Tennessee.

In this case, Diageo felt they had to Dickelize it, so what else could they do? Doing it to new make and then letting it age for five or more years wasn't an option. This way they were able to make something that tastes different from the many other LDI ryes, and a bit milder and smoother, which is also consistent with the Dickel brand. It's a different taste and fair to say it's a funky taste, so it will be interesting to see how people respond to it on taste alone. Whether of not it suits the Dickel brand with be another question.

Lazer
10-18-2012, 19:23
Doing it to new make and then letting it age for five or more years wasn't an option. This way they were able to make something that tastes different from the many other LDI ryes, and a bit milder and smoother, which is also consistent with the Dickel brand. It's a different taste and fair to say it's a funky taste, so it will be interesting to see how people respond to it on taste alone. Whether of not it suits the Dickel brand with be another question.
Taste alone is no way to judge a whiskey. It has to have the right resume/pedigree. I would have been much happier to see this whiskey come out of Dickel than LDI. :cool:

White Dog
10-18-2012, 20:26
For me, Diageo has no pedigree.

cowdery
10-26-2012, 20:39
Talked to John Lunn today. I wanted to clarify a couple things before I wrote today's blog post about new Dickel Rye. (http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2012/10/george-dickel-gives-different-taste-to.html) That whiskey travels a lot. It's distilled, aged, and dumped in Lawrenceburg, Indiana; shipped to Tullahoma, Tennessee, to be charcoal-mellowed; then it's shipped to Plainfield, Illinois, outside of Chicago, to be bottled and distributed.

p_elliott
10-27-2012, 06:20
Chuck

Is all the Dickel stuff bottled in Plainfield IL ?

cowdery
10-29-2012, 16:33
Yes. Diageo has invested about $30 million in that facility in recent years. I'm not sure of everything they do there, but it's an immense bottling and distribution facility. I've been trying to wrangle a tour, especially since it's only an hour from my home. I believe they distill GNS there, for Smirnoff and their other vodkas and domestic gins. I think they have a brewery there, to make their flavored malt beverages such as Smirnoff Ice.

Also, I just made a correction to the blog post based on information just received from Diageo. When Lunn said they 'use the same charcoal," I incorrectly assumed they filtered it at the distillery. Instead they send the charcoal to Plainfield, Illinois, where Dickel is bottled. The whiskey goes from Lawrenceburg to Plainfield and the charcoal goes from Tullahoma to Plainfield. Sorry about that.

wadewood
10-29-2012, 17:01
Also, I just made a correction to the blog post based on information just received from Diageo. When Lunn said they 'use the same charcoal," I incorrectly assumed they filtered it at the distillery. Instead they send the charcoal to Plainfield, Illinois, where Dickel is bottled. The whiskey goes from Lawrenceburg to Plainfield and the charcoal goes from Tullahoma to Plainfield. Sorry about that.

That does make more sense. I wonder if they use new charcoal or pull some charcoal that has already been filtering Dickell?

Shell
10-29-2012, 17:47
Yes. Diageo has invested about $30 million in that facility in recent years. I'm not sure of everything they do there, but it's an immense bottling and distribution facility....

Also, I just made a correction to the blog post based on information just received from Diageo. When Lunn said they 'use the same charcoal," I incorrectly assumed they filtered it at the distillery. Instead they send the charcoal to Plainfield, Illinois, where Dickel is bottled. The whiskey goes from Lawrenceburg to Plainfield and the charcoal goes from Tullahoma to Plainfield. Sorry about that.

Is this procedure of the whiskey going from Lawrenceburg, IN to Plainfield, IL used only for the George Dickel Rye, or for all of Dickel's Tennessee Whisky?

cowdery
10-29-2012, 17:57
Dickel products are bottled in Plainfield. There is no bottling in Tullahoma at the distillery.

cowdery
10-29-2012, 18:00
Probably the most interesting thing John Lunn told me about Dickel is that they don't have computer process controls like everybody else now does. It's essentially still run using the technology that was current when it was built in 1958. There is a worker who controls the boiler using manual controls and analog gauges, same with the still.

Shell
10-29-2012, 18:04
Dickel products are bottled in Plainfield. There is no bottling in Tullahoma at the distillery.


Probably the most interesting thing John Lunn told me about Dickel is that they don't have computer process controls like everybody else now does. It's essentially still run using the technology that was current when it was built in 1958. There is a worker who controls the boiler using manual controls and analog gauges, same with the still.

This is pretty intriguing: If all of Dickel's whisky is produced in IN, then the only thing that Dickel does in TN is produce the charcoal to be shipped to the Plainfield, IL bottling site.

Ejmharris
10-29-2012, 18:45
This is pretty intriguing: If all of Dickel's whisky is produced in IN, then the only thing that Dickel does in TN is produce the charcoal to be shipped to the Plainfield, IL bottling site.

The Dickel Rye is distilled and aged in Indiana. Then send to Plainfield for bottling and now charcoal filtering. They distill and age the Tennessee whiskey in Tennessee and ship it to Plainfield for bottling.

Shell
10-29-2012, 18:49
The Dickel Rye is distilled and aged in Indiana. Then send to Plainfield for bottling and now charcoal filtering. They distill and age the Tennessee whiskey in Tennessee and ship it to Plainfield for bottling.

Thanks very much for the clarification.

T Comp
10-29-2012, 20:39
Thanks very much for the clarification.

And to clarify more and :deadhorse: the Tennessee whiskey is charcoal filtered (in Tullahoma) after distilling and before barrelling whereas the rye is being charcoal filtered (in Plainfield) after being dumped from the barrel.

tmckenzie
10-30-2012, 13:51
Probably the most interesting thing John Lunn told me about Dickel is that they don't have computer process controls like everybody else now does. It's essentially still run using the technology that was current when it was built in 1958. There is a worker who controls the boiler using manual controls and analog gauges, same with the still.
This is maybe one reason I like dickel so much. It amazes me how many distilleries including a lot of the new micros are automated. I think you take the human element out, you loose flavor. Still companies are eager to sell automation devices too, told us they could do it for us, I said nope, i want a valve for steam, one for beer feed and a flow meter for both. If I am not mistaken and Chuck can correct me, the old WT plant that was torn down was not automated either.

cowdery
10-31-2012, 15:32
They had computerized controls on the fermenters and perhaps the cookers but not the still. Eddie showed me where the guy's chair was and the valve he operated. He went mostly on vibration (feel) and sound. So, yes, they had a full-time still operator who ran the still manually.

ThomasH
01-12-2013, 14:00
Got a bottle of this last week. Somewhat different due to the charcoal filtering!

Thomas

shoshani
01-12-2013, 16:42
They had computerized controls on the fermenters and perhaps the cookers but not the still. Eddie showed me where the guy's chair was and the valve he operated. He went mostly on vibration (feel) and sound. So, yes, they had a full-time still operator who ran the still manually.

So, wait...the new WT plant is automated/computerized all the way through? I wonder how many changes they made...sigh.

cowdery
01-13-2013, 18:04
I haven't been through WT yet but as I understand it, the plant is fully modern, no more or less modern than most others. Mostly what is automated are process controls. The main thing at WT that didn't have them before was the beer still itself. At this point, I know of only one major distillery that doesn't have computerized process controls on most of the equipment. Buffalo Trace even has theirs web enabled so Harlen can monitor everything when he's traveling. If you're looking for a major distillery without them, that ship has just about sailed. The sole exception: George Dickel. They have no computers in the distillery, according to Master Distiller John Lunn. He told me "everything is sight and sound, touch and feel, the old-fashioned way."

p_elliott
01-14-2013, 06:57
I haven't been through WT yet but as I understand it, the plant is fully modern, no more or less modern than most others. Mostly what is automated are process controls. The main thing at WT that didn't have them before was the beer still itself. At this point, I know of only one major distillery that doesn't have computerized process controls on most of the equipment. Buffalo Trace even has theirs web enabled so Harlen can monitor everything when he's traveling. If you're looking for a major distillery without them, that ship has just about sailed. The sole exception: George Dickel. They have no computers in the distillery, according to Master Distiller John Lunn. He told me "everything is sight and sound, touch and feel, the old-fashioned way."

Chuck

I was under the impresion that most of the master distillers could monitor the distillery from the road?

cowdery
01-14-2013, 12:55
Perhaps they can. I just happen to have talked to Harlen about it. And I have trouble imagining Jimmy Russell monitoring data points on an iPad at the airport in Singapore. He has people to do that.

Gillman
01-14-2013, 13:03
I know it is common in modern brewing. I have read that the Hofbrauhaus in Newport, KY has its operations monitored online from the head office in Munich. Maybe that is why the beer is so good.

Gary

Ejmharris
01-14-2013, 16:40
I know it is common in modern brewing. I have read that the Hofbrauhaus in Newport, KY has its operations monitored online from the head office in Munich. Maybe that is why the beer is so good.

Gary

I do quite a bit of doing my own monitoring of the beer at Hofbrauhaus in person. 😄


Mike

Gillman
01-14-2013, 17:32
Excellent, and wish I could join you on one of those sessions! I had a visit planned for April but finally we decided to fly into Louisville (vs. Cincinnati) so we won't get up there.

However, the Louisville beer scene is not without interest and this time I want to get out to Albanian.

Gary

T Comp
01-14-2013, 17:44
The ultimate thread drift...and something I forgot to mention to you earlier Gary...a brand new Hofbrauhaus is opening 1/22/13 (already delayed from November) just a few miles from my house and O'Hare airport in Rosemont Il. This will be their fourth in the states and there is some franchise agreement with an entity known as the Windy City Group for this new one.

p_elliott
01-15-2013, 05:00
The ultimate thread drift...and something I forgot to mention to you earlier Gary...a brand new Hofbrauhaus is opening 1/22/13 (already delayed from November) just a few miles from my house and O'Hare airport in Rosemont Il. This will be their fourth in the states and there is some franchise agreement with an entity known as the Windy City Group for this new one.


We (me included) have drifted a bit off the subject at hand we need to get back to it. If we wish to continue this conversation lets start a new thread.

Evets
01-15-2013, 13:24
Taste alone is no way to judge a whiskey. It has to have the right resume/pedigree. I would have been much happier to see this whiskey come out of Dickel than LDI. :cool:

Really? Wow!

Taste is the only thing that really matters to me. I don't care if Coca Cola made it...
I like this new rye.

cowdery
01-15-2013, 14:32
I think what Lazer means is that we've already had plenty of iterations of the MGPI rye, albeit this one is charcoal filtered between barrel and bottle, which is new. I too would love to see how John Lunn would make a rye from scratch in Tullahoma.

Evets
01-15-2013, 14:44
I think what Lazer means is that we've already had plenty of iterations of the MGPI rye, albeit this one is charcoal filtered between barrel and bottle, which is new. I too would love to see how John Lunn would make a rye from scratch in Tullahoma.

Thanks. And I wondered if he meant it in a humorous or wry way. I am interested in the heritage of my beverages and I do give extra points for truly unique ones. But from my one sample of the Dickel Rye it is clear that it is very different from anything else I have tasted. The more I taste different bourbons and ryes the more aware I am that it is the barrel aging and other important processes (like the charcoal filtering) that really affect the eventual taste of the spirit. For the price the Dickel is a clear winner for me.

cowdery
01-18-2013, 10:29
Excellent, and wish I could join you on one of those sessions! I had a visit planned for April but finally we decided to fly into Louisville (vs. Cincinnati) so we won't get up there.

However, the Louisville beer scene is not without interest and this time I want to get out to Albanian.

Gary

You should also go see my friend Leah Dienes at Apocalypse Brew Works.

Gillman
01-18-2013, 10:42
Then I shall, thank you!

(Oops apologies Paul if this was the too-wayward thread!. No more but I didn't want to be rude to ole Chuck). :)

Gary

tmckenzie
01-19-2013, 05:16
I toured WT last spring and by the looks of things it is all automated. I saw on ADI forums a conversation about continuous stills and if they were "craft" enough. One guy argued no, because he said they all had to be automated. Somebody, I cannot imagine who, had to chime in and tell about the guy running the still in the old WT plant. I do not think they beleived it. Hell, I should know, we are putting one in that the only thing on it that is even electrical is a flow meter for beer feed.

squire
01-19-2013, 07:33
No shortage of expert advise on the Internet Tom, most of it worth exactly what we paid.