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savagehenry
11-28-2012, 19:12
Here is the scenario:
You have a bottle of PVW 23 that you are sure you can trade to one of two liquor stores.
One store has a VWFRR ($360 on the shelf) and a ORVW 10/107 ($170!!! on the shelf) that you may be able to get for it, as said store just sold a PVW 20 for $600.
The other has 5 bottles of JPS 18 ($100!! on the shelf) that you may be able to get for it, as said store just sold a PVW 23 for $550.

Which store do you go to first, assuming the first store takes you up on your offer?

I may be doing this tomorrow, just curious what you would do. Never mind what I like.
BTW, I have already had success at one of the shops by trading a Lot B for a V23 Rye.

AaronWF
11-28-2012, 19:33
This is crazy, sick, twisted and disgusting. Pappy23 should be around $250, VWFRR around $70 and 10/107 around $40. The JPS I see around $90...

So, how about you trade the Pappy23 for the five bottles of JPS and then go trade two JPSs for the VWFRR and the ORVW 10/107?

Blows my mind what people seem to have to go through to get their hands on good bourbon (ORVW) and excellent rye.

savagehenry
11-28-2012, 19:35
So, how about you trade the Pappy23 for the five bottles of JPS and then go trade two JPSs for the VWFRR and the ORVW 10/107?


Interesting idea. That's why I posted. The question would be, does the owner of shop #2 even know WTF JPS 18 is?

yountvillewjs
11-28-2012, 19:38
The question would be, does the owner of shop #2 even know WTF JPS 18 is?

Don't think it matters what he knows necessarily -- what do his customers know? People don't care that JPS is SW, they want Pappy -- SW or not.

TomH
11-28-2012, 19:41
I guess you first of all have to decide what the goal of your trade is....are you trying to maximize your value or are you trying to get something you like better without laying out any cash. With that in mind here are my comments on the 2 trades:

Trade 1 - There is no way I would even consider this trade. The value you are getting back is nowhere close to what your trading away. I would be looking to get around twice as much as you are proposing for a PVW 23 (looking at what I think the bottles are worth not necessarily tying into his pricing structure).

Trade 2 - If I had a PVW 23 that I didn't want, this might be an acceptable trade. I think the values line up between the two sides making this a fair trade. I'm not sure I'd really be into getting that many JPS's, but if you like them I would say this is my choice for the 2 trades.

Just my 2 cents

Tom

savagehenry
11-28-2012, 20:05
Thanks Tom. The guy with the JPS also has a couple that I've never seen out here, Hancocks Reserve and Johnny Drum. Perhaps I can get more than the JPS.

Rockefeller
11-28-2012, 20:12
I'm slightly confused here. Why not just keep the PVW23 and buy a JPS18 at normal retail prices? My local store has it at $70 pretax

If you can't afford to purchase any more bottles, sell your PVW23 (it is flooding craigslist right now) and this time, use the proceeds to buy a VWFRR, ORVW10, JPS18 AND still have money left over for a dinner.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

White Dog
11-28-2012, 20:23
This is easy. Trade that bottle for 10 cases of Mellow Corn. You'll be better off. Trust me.

savagehenry
11-28-2012, 20:26
I'm slightly confused here. Why not just keep the PVW23 and buy a JPS18 at normal retail prices? My local store has it at $70 pretax

If you can't afford to purchase any more bottles, sell your PVW23 (it is flooding craigslist right now) and this time, use the proceeds to buy a VWFRR, ORVW10, JPS18 AND still have money left over for a dinner.

Problem solved. You're welcome.
Thanks for the input, but that is not one of the scenarios. The PVW 23, that I bought for retail $, does not mean s*&t to me. I can get JPS 18 for $70 and I love it, however, trying to get VWFRR and ORWV 10 in SD county is almost impossible. That is why I am leaning towards either getting 2 hard to find bottles for it, or 5 $70 bottles that I thoroughly enjoy, for it. I suppose I could also hold it for several years until it's worth $1000, but going by how my stock portfolio is performing, I prefer to act now.

Tico
11-28-2012, 20:32
I really don't see the value in drinking a PVW23 at retail cost and definitely not at the inflated secondary market price. It all depends on how bad you want a bottle of VWFRR and ORVW. That being said I think you would get a lot more utility out of 5 bottles of JPS over one single bottle of PVW23.

savagehenry
11-28-2012, 20:33
Don't think it matters what he knows necessarily -- what do his customers know? People don't care that JPS is SW, they want Pappy -- SW or not.

That's my point. If I trade to shop # 1 for JPS, and then go to shop # 2 with two bottles of JPS, there is no way I will get the VWFRR & ORWV for 2 JPS bottles if he doesn't know what the JPS are.

savagehenry
11-28-2012, 20:34
I really don't see the value in drinking a PVW23 at retail cost and definitely not at the inflated secondary market price. It all depends on how bad you want a bottle of VWFRR and ORVW. That being said I think you would get a lot more utility out of 5 bottles of JPS over one single bottle of PVW23.

Thanks Tico. "Utility.". I like that.

Rockefeller
11-28-2012, 20:46
Thanks for the input, but that is not one of the scenarios. The PVW 23, that I bought for retail $, does not mean s*&t to me. I can get JPS 18 for $70 and I love it, however, trying to get VWFRR and ORWV 10 in SD county is almost impossible. That is why I am leaning towards either getting 2 hard to find bottles for it, or 5 $70 bottles that I thoroughly enjoy, for it. I suppose I could also hold it for several years until it's worth $1000, but going by how my stock portfolio is performing, I prefer to act now.

I think the greater point is that you can get more for the PVW23, I think 2 VWFRR and 2 ORVW would be fair. The liquor store owner, who paid wholesale prices for them, should understand that. I would at the very least hold out for two VWFRR and one ORVW.

Josh
11-28-2012, 20:58
This is easy. Trade that bottle for 10 cases of Mellow Corn. You'll be better off. Trust me.

Don't be stupid. Get three or four cases of Very Old Barton, BiB.

Rockefeller
11-28-2012, 21:03
Don't be stupid. Get three or four cases of Very Old Barton, BiB.

Macallan 25yr methinks

savagehenry
11-28-2012, 21:14
I think the greater point is that you can get more for the PVW23, I think 2 VWFRR and 2 ORVW would be fair. The liquor store owner, who paid wholesale prices for them, should understand that. I would at the very least hold out for two VWFRR and one ORVW.

He may have only one of each, and he may not have necessarily paid wholesale. I've talked to several shop owners who have had to buy 12 cases of vodka to get one bottle of a VW.

Rockefeller
11-28-2012, 21:30
He may have only one of each, and he may not have necessarily paid wholesale. I've talked to several shop owners who have had to buy 12 cases of vodka to get one bottle of a VW.

Well, then you should be able to trade the 23 for a VWFRR, an ORVW10 ... and a case of Vodka

compliance
11-29-2012, 00:00
I think the greater point is that you can get more for the PVW23, I think 2 VWFRR and 2 ORVW would be fair. The liquor store owner, who paid wholesale prices for them, should understand that. I would at the very least hold out for two VWFRR and one ORVW.

I don't know of any store in CA that gets more than one bottle of VWFRR, most get 0. I think if you tried to trade some JPRS for anything you'll get laughed at, that stuff's flooding the shelves right now. He could just buy it from the distributor. Personally, I wouldn't deal with people marking up like that in any way shape or form. Try trading it to someone looking for 23.

Brisko
11-29-2012, 08:02
Macallan 25yr methinks
Bingo.

Look, assuming you paid close to MSRP for the PVW23, and you trade it for VWFRR and ORVW 10/107, you still end up overpaying by about a factor of two. I've had both of these and they are great but hardly worth $250 in my opinion. The smart play would be to trade your overvalued PVW23 for something that's not overvalued. For instance, a 25 or 30 year old single malt. Or multiple cases of whatever value bourbon tickles you... if it was me it would be OGD114, but VOB and Mellow Corn are worthy suggestions, too.

Or, barring that, 5 JPS18s. At least then you're only overpaying by 25%.

Kalessin
11-29-2012, 08:04
If I walked up to the counter at any of the liquor stores around here, asked for the owner or manager, and said, "I have this bottle of Pappy 23 and I'd like to trade it for those other bottles of whiskey over there..", I'd expect to get in reply, "What, are you from the ABCC? The Department of Revenue? Credit card, debit or cash, or get the hell out of here!"

Rockefeller
11-29-2012, 11:27
Bingo.

Look, assuming you paid close to MSRP for the PVW23, and you trade it for VWFRR and ORVW 10/107, you still end up overpaying by about a factor of two. I've had both of these and they are great but hardly worth $250 in my opinion. The smart play would be to trade your overvalued PVW23 for something that's not overvalued. For instance, a 25 or 30 year old single malt. Or multiple cases of whatever value bourbon tickles you... if it was me it would be OGD114, but VOB and Mellow Corn are worthy suggestions, too.

Or, barring that, 5 JPS18s. At least then you're only overpaying by 25%.


Seriously, Macallan 25 is the best and most "equitable" trade you can do with a PVW23. Mac25 actually has a MSRP of $600+ and is much more impressive to have on your top shelf vs. some $250 bottle that's been hyped up to be worth $600+.

Rockefeller
11-29-2012, 11:33
Seriously, Macallan 25 is the best and most "equitable" trade you can do with a PVW23. Mac25 actually has a MSRP of $600+ and is much more impressive to have on your top shelf vs. some $250 bottle that's been hyped up to be worth $600+.

By the way, I'll save you the suspense. Having owned everything in the Van Winkle line, I can tell you that the ORVW10 and VWFRR is NOT worth $600 (market value wise) of anything. That's an iPad w/ $100 rebate!!! Can we pull ourselves together people?!

Brisko
11-29-2012, 12:22
Seriously, Macallan 25 is the best and most "equitable" trade you can do with a PVW23. Mac25 actually has a MSRP of $600+ and is much more impressive to have on your top shelf vs. some $250 bottle that's been hyped up to be worth $600+.

I agree completely, although personally I would hold out for a Talisker 30 and a case of OGD114.

I also agree with your other post about the value of ORVW 10/107 and VWFRR. I've bought ORVW at $40 and it was probably worth that. I wouldn't pay more than $40 for it, though. I might not even buy it again at that price. The rye is very good and I'm glad I bought it, somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 last year. I could see paying $100 for it but not much more.

savagehenry
11-29-2012, 12:27
Seriously, Macallan 25 is the best and most "equitable" trade you can do with a PVW23. Mac25 actually has a MSRP of $600+ and is much more impressive to have on your top shelf vs. some $250 bottle that's been hyped up to be worth $600+.

I really don't drink Scotch, but I'll consider that. If I'm only going to have one bottle of Scotch on my bar, a 25 year would be a good one.

Rockefeller
11-29-2012, 13:03
I really don't drink Scotch, but I'll consider that. If I'm only going to have one bottle of Scotch on my bar, a 25 year would be a good one.

Try the 12yr and 18yr (a classic) at a bar first to see if its profile is to your liking. Although I would be hesitant to open the 25yr in the first place.

savagehenry
11-29-2012, 14:49
Well, I did not get what I wanted today so I'm holding the bottle for now.
The first spot did not come close. At the 2nd spot I was surprised to see a PVW 23 on their shelf.....for $900!!!! Didn't even bother talking trade, but perhaps I can try and sell it to them closer to Xmas.
I'm thinking I may just hold it, or say f#$k it and make it part of my wheater flight at my Xmas party tasting event. It's a 2004 bottling.
Cheers!

yountvillewjs
11-29-2012, 14:54
Not much of a scotch drinker but if someone wants to trade me a Macallan 25 for a PVW23 -- I'd do it!

unclebunk
11-29-2012, 15:19
Lots of good suggestions re: trade value, etc. But the more important issue is this: What kind of jackass would even think of paying $360 for a bottle of VWFRR? That's insane! Me, I'd go with Josh's suggestion of a few cases of VOB and maybe even throw in a hooker. Now that would be a good deal for a bottle of PVW23!:lol:

LostBottle
11-29-2012, 15:31
At the 2nd spot I was surprised to see a PVW 23 on their shelf.....for $900!!!!

Please email the name of that place to the Van Winkles, they are trying to crack down on this. In fact, I encourage you to post the name of the place so we can bombard it with negative Yelp reviews about their price gouging.

savagehenry
11-29-2012, 15:37
Please email the name of that place to the Van Winkles, they are trying to crack down on this. In fact, I encourage you to post the name of the place so we can bombard it with negative Yelp reviews about their price gouging.

I already sent them a Facebook message.
He had the bottle behind the counter, so I could not make out the tag. When I asked how much it was, he said with a smile "It's not for sale." Then said "it's priced at $900, but if you have cash we can work a better deal." He then proceeded to tell me he had a friend at another San Diego area store with it priced at $1300, explaining that his friend does not care if he sells it, juts that it looks good on our shelves.

fishnbowljoe
11-29-2012, 16:24
Not trying tp spoil the party, but I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere, that it is illegal for a liquor store to acquire alcohol from anyone or anyplace other than a distributor or a wholesaler. Has anyone else heard if this is true or not?

Josh
11-29-2012, 16:41
Well, I did not get what I wanted today so I'm holding the bottle for now.
The first spot did not come close. At the 2nd spot I was surprised to see a PVW 23 on their shelf.....for $900!!!! Didn't even bother talking trade, but perhaps I can try and sell it to them closer to Xmas.
I'm thinking I may just hold it, or say f#$k it and make it part of my wheater flight at my Xmas party tasting event. It's a 2004 bottling.
Cheers!

I thought this was all hypothetical.

Ejmharris
11-29-2012, 16:43
Not trying tp spoil the party, but I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere, that it is illegal for a liquor store to acquire alcohol from anyone or anyplace other than a distributor or a wholesaler. Has anyone else heard if this is true or not?

It is also illegal to smoke pot in California. Uhhhh, unless you have a "prescription."

jburlowski
11-29-2012, 17:25
PVW 23?

I offer the following:

savagehenry
11-29-2012, 18:02
I thought this was all hypothetical.

Well, it was hypothetical for everyone but me.

Rockefeller
11-29-2012, 18:06
Not trying tp spoil the party, but I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere, that it is illegal for a liquor store to acquire alcohol from anyone or anyplace other than a distributor or a wholesaler. Has anyone else heard if this is true or not?

I believe this is true. It is also illegal for a liquor store to accept returns of a bottle that has left the store. Why? Well some crackpot out there could refill an empty bottle with something else and reseal it. Would you want to buy a bottle of liquor (or any food product frankly) that was a return item?

smokinjoe
11-29-2012, 20:28
I believe this is true. It is also illegal for a liquor store to accept returns of a bottle that has left the store. Why? Well some crackpot out there could refill an empty bottle with something else and reseal it. Would you want to buy a bottle of liquor (or any food product frankly) that was a return item?

Can't a crackpot screw up anything? So, I don't know why this would be the reason for not accepting returns of liquor.

tommyboy38
11-29-2012, 21:04
I think I'm putting all my PVW in the trunk and driving out to California.

WAINWRIGHT
11-29-2012, 21:11
I think I'm putting all my PVW in the trunk and driving out to California.
Pick me up it's on the way,we can split the gas.:lol:

soonami
11-29-2012, 21:46
Not trying tp spoil the party, but I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere, that it is illegal for a liquor store to acquire alcohol from anyone or anyplace other than a distributor or a wholesaler. Has anyone else heard if this is true or not?
100% true. Commercial retailers must buy from a distributor and only distributors that have registered in their state. If owned a liquor store in NJ, I couldn't bypass my state's distributor of VW and place an order with the cheaper NY distributor.


I believe this is true. It is also illegal for a liquor store to accept returns of a bottle that has left the store. Why? Well some crackpot out there could refill an empty bottle with something else and reseal it. Would you want to buy a bottle of liquor (or any food product frankly) that was a return item?
Definitely a local law, if true. In PA and in fact many stores in DE and NJ, will accept for returns any unopened bottles of alcohol.

T Comp
11-29-2012, 22:17
100% true. Commercial retailers must buy from a distributor and only distributors that have registered in their state. If owned a liquor store in NJ, I couldn't bypass my state's distributor of VW and place an order with the cheaper NY distributor.


Definitely a local law, if true. In PA and in fact many stores in DE and NJ, will accept for returns any unopened bottles of alcohol.

Right...also in Illinois you can return unopened bottles of alcohol from the store you bought, if that is the store's policy. I know that Binny's allows this but expect other stores here may not. And of course the first part that soonami states is absolutely true based on three tier. Though back in the day, I came across a few independent store operators that were willing to sell me items they certainly didn't acquire from a distributor and more like somebody's basement. Of course I turned them down :grin:.

tanstaafl2
11-30-2012, 07:56
PVW 23?

I offer the following:

Wow, moving fast even for wingnuts running Zimbabwe! When I was last there in about 2009 the biggest bill was only ten billion or so.

Kalessin
11-30-2012, 11:56
In Massachusetts, most liquor stores will accept returns of unopened bottles, within reason. Most bottles these days have a decent tamper-proof seal.

I'm sure they can refuse a return (bringing back that bottle of 25-year-old scotch because the wife didn't approve probably won't work unless you have a long and well-established relationship with the store).

Catering and party hosting depends on buying extra bottles for back-up and returning them, though this usually involves commodity type stock (bottom- and mid-shelf bottles). Stores I've used for this won't take back wine or beer if chilled.

I'm also sure that even with three-tier system, stock has occasionally appeared in stores that didn't come through the official distribution channel.

bigtoys
11-30-2012, 21:14
ridiculous
just picked up a FRR for $70 & a 23 for $270--the way it should be
yeah, I'm bragging

BourbonRob
12-02-2012, 08:49
That's what I was thinking...trade for the 5 JPS' and re-trade. That way you're still getting SW, but more of it

matthewdc
12-13-2012, 11:38
Wanted to piggyback this thread if possible. another hypothetical--how about trading a Lot B for a 4R SmB LE 2012? worth a try?

Tico
12-13-2012, 11:49
Wanted to piggyback this thread if possible. another hypothetical--how about trading a Lot B for a 4R SmB LE 2012? worth a try?
I'd make that trade all day long

Lot B is $50 around here, 4R SmB LE is $80ish

Yeti
12-13-2012, 11:50
I'd make that trade in a heartbeat. The LE2012 is going to be "the one that got away" for me this year. Just can't seem to find one anywhere.

savagehenry
12-13-2012, 12:25
Hell yes. Lot B is released every 6 months. 4R LE only once - ever.

RVTsteve
12-13-2012, 13:12
Hell yes. Lot B is released every 6 months. 4R LE only once - ever.

Well, it will only be released once next year since VW announced the move to only one release a year. still, point taken.

just not sure why a store would go for it unless they are price gouging the VW in which case they're probably gouging FR too, or they will next year.

Josh
12-13-2012, 14:19
Well, it will only be released once next year since VW announced the move to only one release a year. still, point taken.

just not sure why a store would go for it unless they are price gouging the VW in which case they're probably gouging FR too, or they will next year.

It's very possible to have a high price over MSRP on VW and not on 4R Ltd Eds. Four Roses doesn't have near the poseur appeal of VW, and even if some are starting to catch on, it won't be close for several years.

RVTsteve
12-13-2012, 17:45
Yeah, I've heard of some pricing on Lot B right along with FR LE's, or even more. unfortunately.

I'm sure you're right about the FR LE's but considering the hype over this year's I certainly wouldn't count on it getting any easier to acquire. But really, FR and VW are totally different machines with VW as the cool looking runaway train built by someone else and FR as...something strong and controlled and building speed gradually built by FR... or something :skep:

Personally, like many here, I'd let everyone else go crazy over VW while I quietly stock up on the FR releases.

Phil T
12-13-2012, 17:55
It's very possible to have a high price over MSRP on VW and not on 4R Ltd Eds. Four Roses doesn't have near the poseur appeal of VW, and even if some are starting to catch on, it won't be close for several years.

It may be closer then you think Josh. In pass years I've had no problem finding the LE's . But this year I've struggled to find one of each.

I've already stopped chasing VW and BTAC because of improbability. Now it looks to me, its happening with FR's.

MyOldKyDram
12-13-2012, 17:59
You can still walk into most any store around here and find the 2012 SmB LE. Most of the past years can be had, too. I'm with Josh in thinking that a comparable 4R boom may be years away, if ever in coming. Although every little bit of extra positive press they do receive makes me cringe just a little more in anticipation of it.

yountvillewjs
12-13-2012, 21:02
It may be closer then you think Josh. In pass years I've had no problem finding the LE's . But this year I've struggled to find one of each.

I'd like to see where/how these are distributed. Meaning do all regions get a relatively equal share?

Brisko
12-14-2012, 08:57
I propose a moratorium on discussing the bourbons currently being made in Lawrenceburg, KY, with the exception perhaps of the yellow label. They already got plenty of exposure on Hansell's blog, and we've probably fanned the flames enough here as it is. I'd hate to see that brand go the way of the Van Winkle's. Let the lurkers and flippers lust for VW and BTAC. Let's keep our own future rosy, so to to speak.

Deal? Maybe we could have a code word of some sort.

Trey Manthey
12-14-2012, 09:11
I propose a moratorium on discussing the bourbons currently being made in Lawrenceburg, KY, with the exception perhaps of the yellow label. They already got plenty of exposure on Hansell's blog, and we've probably fanned the flames enough here as it is. I'd hate to see that brand go the way of the Van Winkle's. Let the lurkers and flippers lust for VW and BTAC. Let's keep our own future rosy, so to to speak.

Deal? Maybe we could have a code word of some sort.

Great idea. We should only discuss terrible whiskey so that we throw off the trail of other people that are interested in whiskey. I can't wait.

Brisko
12-14-2012, 10:44
Great idea. We should only discuss terrible whiskey so that we throw off the trail of other people that are interested in whiskey. I can't wait.

It'll be fascinating.

Never mind, my early morning paranoia is kicking in... a side effect of whiskirexia nervosa ​I guess.

matthewdc
12-14-2012, 17:00
Wanted to piggyback this thread if possible. another hypothetical--how about trading a Lot B for a 4R SmB LE 2012? worth a try?

Quick update. Trade worked! Traded straight up. I would like to thank the VW hype for making this possible...

savagehenry
12-14-2012, 17:03
Quick update. Trade work! Traded straight up. I would like to thank the VW hype for making this possible...
That's awesome. From now on I'm hunting Lot B at retail for trade bait! Call it Lot Chum.

RVTsteve
12-14-2012, 17:48
Quick update. Trade worked! Traded straight up. I would like to thank the VW hype for making this possible...

:bigeyes: holy cow. um, congrats I guess. incredible

I saw a Lot B today with $79.98 price tag...

matthewdc
12-14-2012, 18:46
:bigeyes: holy cow. um, congrats I guess. incredible

I saw a Lot B today with $79.98 price tag...

Shoot, here in DC, I've seen it go for $125 up to $175! However, VA ABCs sell it for bascially retail at $53, if you can find it, which I did.

RVTsteve
12-14-2012, 18:49
so bonkers!!! I got one for retail too, luckily. good job on the trade

Trey Manthey
12-14-2012, 20:07
I traded a PVW20 for a AHH gold foil last week. The inspiration came from this thread.

tommyboy38
12-14-2012, 20:30
Good trade. Wish I could have made that trade. No Hirsch bourbon and extra Pappy in the bunker.

jsVA
12-14-2012, 20:32
Shoot, here in DC, I've seen it go for $125 up to $175! However, VA ABCs sell it for bascially retail at $53, if you can find it, which I did.
How did you get a lot b in a va abc store? From what I heard - from the lady at va abc who handles the special orders, distribution etc, va got approx 708 bottles this release, and it is all 20yr.

yountvillewjs
12-14-2012, 21:02
great trade, one I would make every single day.