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p_elliott
12-01-2012, 08:04
Why is it that with the exception of 1792 and VOB BIB everything that Barton makes is bottom shelf bourbon?

HighInTheMtns
12-01-2012, 08:15
Can't speak to why Barton's product line is what it is, but I'd like to see Sazerac make a Barton addition to the BTAC.

squire
12-01-2012, 08:39
Don't quite follow your question Paul, the only difference between Barton 86 and BIB is the proof.

squire
12-01-2012, 08:43
Jim I hope Sazarac leaves Barton alone, it's the last quality value priced brand available locally.

HighInTheMtns
12-01-2012, 09:14
Jim I hope Sazarac leaves Barton alone, it's the last quality value priced brand available locally.
I'm afraid they already haven't left it alone, I know they cut production because they were really after the warehouse space.

I wish value priced Barton was available here - it's only 1792 or the Ten High blend for me. It makes me treat the bottle of VOB BIB I have as if it weren't a value brand. :D

squire
12-01-2012, 09:26
BIB will probably be the first casualty, followed by removal of the age statement.

squire
12-01-2012, 09:29
Speaking of Barton blends Jim, is Kentucky Gentleman available in your market?

HighInTheMtns
12-01-2012, 09:40
Speaking of Barton blends Jim, is Kentucky Gentleman available in your market?
Nope. Come to think of it, we get the Fleischmann's blend too although I've never had it, but those three labels are it for Barton whiskey. We get a bunch of other things from Barton, vodka, liqueurs, etc, but no straight bourbon besides 1792.

smokinjoe
12-01-2012, 10:18
Can't speak to why Barton's product line is what it is, but I'd like to see Sazerac make a Barton addition to the BTAC.

I agree with you on this one. Two candidates in my book: A higher aged Barrel Proof VOB; and the same configuration with their Rye. :yum:

squire
12-01-2012, 10:45
A Barton Rye BIB is very high on my wish list.

squire
12-01-2012, 10:50
It's such an odd system Jim, of the three major stores in our small college town only one gets Barton and Kentucky Gentleman, but all three carry the liqueurs.

cowdery
12-01-2012, 10:59
Such pessimism! Sazerac is taking its time with Barton, but they've upgraded the packaging of VOB and increased distribution of 1792, so they're not standing still nor moving backwards. They're running the two distilleries more-or-less separately. Both have excess production capacity. They felt Barton was over-producing so they have cut back, but after the initial hiatus, they've been firing the place up for at least a couple months each season. Barton is not being mothballed.

As to why their line is mostly bottom shelf, that's just a carryover from the previous ownership. Barton was always a commodity producer. No major brands, lots of cheap 'well' brands. That was just the nature of their business.

Personally, I'd like to see a Barton rye.

p_elliott
12-01-2012, 11:14
My little liquor store here in town started carring 1792 I didn't think Iowa carried any thing from from Barton

camduncan
12-01-2012, 12:23
We'd love to see something from them in Australia.... even a low shelf product like Ten High. As it stands, they're the only major distillery without a (known) product on our market.

T Comp
12-01-2012, 13:12
Such pessimism! Sazerac is taking its time with Barton, but they've upgraded the packaging of VOB and increased distribution of 1792, so they're not standing still nor moving backwards. They're running the two distilleries more-or-less separately. Both have excess production capacity. They felt Barton was over-producing so they have cut back, but after the initial hiatus, they've been firing the place up for at least a couple months each season. Barton is not being mothballed.

As to why their line is mostly bottom shelf, that's just a carryover from the previous ownership. Barton was always a commodity producer. No major brands, lots of cheap 'well' brands. That was just the nature of their business.

Personally, I'd like to see a Barton rye.

I love it when we get factual facts around here...Thanks Chuck!

Young Blacksmith
12-01-2012, 13:52
I'm not afraid to reach a little lower on the shelf for some Barton goodness. Tom Moore BIB, VOB BIB, even the 86, and especially Fleischmann's Rye are consumed here with no problems or regrets. Some days I feel a little dirty, enjoying these brands as much as I do when others post about PHC and the BTAC. And yes, I do chase the higher stuff, but my enthusiasm is waning for those alphabet releases, and I find myself grabbing 4R and Barton more and more.

Thanks for the updates on Barton Chuck, and it makes sense they are the well brand maker. Their only higher end product is 1792.

squire
12-01-2012, 18:51
I've hosted a few tastings and Barton does right well.

BourbonRob
12-02-2012, 07:38
Their Tom Moore BIB is bottom shelf but not half bad for the price

MrAtomic
12-02-2012, 13:53
I really enjoy both VOB BIB and 1792, but have never come across Tom Moore BIB in California. Is it basically younger VOB BIB? And is it significantly cheaper than VOB? That's hard to imagine.

HighInTheMtns
12-02-2012, 15:12
Tom Moore is only available in a couple states, you won't be able to find it in CA. For the same reason, I can't give you any tasting notes but it is the same mashbill as VOB.

Bourbon Boiler
12-02-2012, 18:23
1792 is one of my absolute favorite values. I don't think there's a reason for them to make a high shelf offering, since their sisters in Frankfort will take care of that. I just hope they keep doing what they do, and do a lot of it.

mosugoji64
12-02-2012, 22:24
I loves me some VOB BIB and stock up on it whenever we go to KY. Not a huge fan of 1792 but it's not bad. Would like to see Sazerac do some more with the brand, but if they just don't d/c the BIB I'll be fine.

tmckenzie
12-03-2012, 04:13
speaking of KY Gentleman, is it available anywhere as a straight anymore? I had some in the 90's and it has been my thinking that 1792 is straight KY Gentleman, and there is no more straight, only the blend..

ethangsmith
12-03-2012, 14:06
My thoughts on Barton:

1. There needs to be bigger distribution of VOB BIB. I can't get it anywhere but would really love to have a bottle!
2. Hopefully the process and yeast remain separate. I am not a fan of most Buffalo Trace products- seems like their yeast flavor?? Barton is like liquid heaven.
3. 1792 is excellent. Probably one of my top 10 bourbons. It makes no apologies and is a full-flavored bourbon for its price. Even Colonel Lee at 80pf is decent for cheap stuff.
4. Barton rye? Yes please!

JB64
12-03-2012, 15:48
I picked up a bottle of VOB BIB while I was in Chicago a few weeks ago. I have shared it with some friends over the past couple of weeks and all of us felt that it held it's own along side bottles that cost two to three times as much. I wish it was available at my local stores and the next time I have a chance I will pick up more than one bottle.

Rutherford
12-04-2012, 07:40
Put me in the bucket of people who thinks Barton makes Sazerac's best bourbon. VOB is a great product at a great price. 1792 is even better, as I find it to be more complex and less hot. Barton's yeast imparts a superior flavor to that seen in BT products.

squire
12-04-2012, 11:58
I have always liked the Barton flavor profile and when there's a choice select the 100 proof.

tmckenzie
12-05-2012, 03:50
Put me in the bucket of people who thinks Barton makes Sazerac's best bourbon. VOB is a great product at a great price. 1792 is even better, as I find it to be more complex and less hot. Barton's yeast imparts a superior flavor to that seen in BT products.
I am not sure it is the yeast. I have been told that they do not double at barton. Which would explain a lot.

p_elliott
12-05-2012, 04:19
I am not sure it is the yeast. I have been told that they do not double at barton. Which would explain a lot.

They never showed us at Barton what yeast they used. BT uses Red Star.

Rutherford
12-05-2012, 07:02
Red Star produces yeast for BT under contract, using BT's proprietary yeast strain. Barton (and other distilleries) may very well receive yeast from Red Star as well, just using different strains.

doubleblank
12-05-2012, 08:15
I am not sure it is the yeast. I have been told that they do not double at barton. Which would explain a lot.

A group from SB took a tour of Barton about 5 years ago, more or less. We went thru the distillation control room and the operator said (I will paraphrase)...."While we have a doubler on the column, we usually don't use it". Really.....why not? "With our new control systems, we can make a good tasting clean product without it".

Young Blacksmith
12-05-2012, 10:01
That's great info! I also love the barton flavor profile, usually, and their price point doesn't hurt any either. Especially nice when you have a little cold and your taste buds are screwed up, the flavor punches through.

I did have one bottle of VOB BIB that got too banana for my tastes though.

T Comp
12-05-2012, 11:09
I did have one bottle of VOB BIB that got too banana for my tastes though.

The current Sazerac bottled and distributed BIB has little to none of that banana taste in my...oops :lol: . I assume they would still be bottling Constellation distilled product which had a lot of it but must be doing a better job of batching or filtering or something.

Young Blacksmith
12-05-2012, 16:50
That's good news. I have one unopened with a DSP-KY-113 bottling statement. I would think that would be new product. I'm sure I will be tempted before Christmas to pop it open, but getting oral surgery tomorrow so will be a week or so.

squire
12-05-2012, 19:09
Randy it's my understanding Barton whisky came off the beer still at 125 proof and into a copper doubler where it increased to 135 proof, to then be cut back to barreling proof of 125, but my information is at least 20 years old. Wonder when they stopped using the doubler.

tmckenzie
12-06-2012, 03:42
A group from SB took a tour of Barton about 5 years ago, more or less. We went thru the distillation control room and the operator said (I will paraphrase)...."While we have a doubler on the column, we usually don't use it". Really.....why not? "With our new control systems, we can make a good tasting clean product without it".I was told by a person who knows, and I have an old diagram of the barton plant that has no doubler in it. Now, here is my thoughts, and I am inending on provong it myself in a few months. You do not need to double technically speaking. Those columns are designed in such away that nothing harmful or relly bad tasting gets into the product. Depends on your school of thought. Barton whiskey has a certin "bite" to it. Not bad in my opinion, in fact I like it. Smoothness is not important to me as long as there is enough body in the whiskey to offset it. Which barton has. There are 3 ways to double. If you condense and send it to a seperate pot and redistill. This takes out a ton of taste. You continuos doubler which takes out some taste but not as much as the fist way I mentioned, or you can thump, which tends to leave a lot of taste in. Or, you cannot double and leave a lot of taste in. Which is why I think barton makes such a flavorful product. I have tatsed whiskey straight off the column and after the doubler. I prefer the taste right off the column. My theory has always been if you leave more congeners in the white dog, you have more stuff for the barrel to make flavor from. Which is one thing holing a lot of micros back. Too clean a white dog.

doubleblank
12-06-2012, 06:27
Randy it's my understanding Barton whisky came off the beer still at 125 proof and into a copper doubler where it increased to 135 proof, to then be cut back to barreling proof of 125, but my information is at least 20 years old. Wonder when they stopped using the doubler.

On our tour we first saw the column and then the control room. They had left the older analog controllers mounted on the control board but were currently running the column off of a desk top computer. Anyway, the older fella giving us this part of the tour was clear that he normally didn't run the doubler as the newer contol system made great whiskey without it. But at that time there was a doubler/thumper installed. On further reflection, it was longer than 5 years ago when we took this tour....probably closer to 7 years and there were about 15 SB'ers there. They also took us to rickhouse "Z" (IIRC) and let me thief a liter bottle of barrel proof 1792 for the Gazebo table.

CaptainQ
12-06-2012, 06:46
They also took us to rickhouse "Z" (IIRC) and let me thief a liter bottle of barrel proof 1792 for the Gazebo table.

Now that would be some Barton I would love to try. I bet it was :yum:

Thanks for the information Randy.

Brisko
12-06-2012, 06:54
I was told by a person who knows, and I have an old diagram of the barton plant that has no doubler in it. Now, here is my thoughts, and I am inending on provong it myself in a few months. You do not need to double technically speaking. Those columns are designed in such away that nothing harmful or relly bad tasting gets into the product. Depends on your school of thought. Barton whiskey has a certin "bite" to it. Not bad in my opinion, in fact I like it. Smoothness is not important to me as long as there is enough body in the whiskey to offset it. Which barton has. There are 3 ways to double. If you condense and send it to a seperate pot and redistill. This takes out a ton of taste. You continuos doubler which takes out some taste but not as much as the fist way I mentioned, or you can thump, which tends to leave a lot of taste in. Or, you cannot double and leave a lot of taste in. Which is why I think barton makes such a flavorful product. I have tatsed whiskey straight off the column and after the doubler. I prefer the taste right off the column. My theory has always been if you leave more congeners in the white dog, you have more stuff for the barrel to make flavor from. Which is one thing holing a lot of micros back. Too clean a white dog.

Might explain why VOB gives me a headache, too. For whatever reason I'm sensitive to more congeneric whiskeys (nothing an aspirin won't cure) and I was a little surprised by VOB in that regard.

cowdery
12-06-2012, 10:29
Barton has a doubler and the official word regarding its use is that they use it when they need to. What determines if they will double or not is a detail we probably won't get out of them. Doubling and gone in and out of fashion in the business but now it's largely in, so I suspect that for their bourbons, especially their better ones, they double. For something destined to go into a blend, for example, it may not be necessary. Doubling isn't necessary for proof. Distillers say it 'polishes' the spirit, removing some of the more stubborn unpleasant cogeners.

JDC20
12-06-2012, 21:39
Might explain why VOB gives me a headache, too. For whatever reason I'm sensitive to more congeneric whiskeys (nothing an aspirin won't cure) and I was a little surprised by VOB in that regard.

I experience the same phenomenon with Barton products. I thought it might have just been random but after repeating my "study" many times, results stay the same. It's a shame, I really like VOB.

tmckenzie
12-07-2012, 03:11
Straight of of the man mans mouth at Red Star, which is now Fermentis. Red star whiskey yeast is an old Schenley strain. Which used to own BT. All distilleries using Red Star all use the same strain.

Ejmharris
12-07-2012, 04:13
I experience the same phenomenon with Barton products. I thought it might have just been random but after repeating my "study" many times, results stay the same. It's a shame, I really like VOB.

I think I have identified the problem:

Really like VOB = heavy pours = headache

Old Lamplighter
12-08-2012, 10:48
The breakneck pace of the Pappy 'evolution' + the frantic onrush to hunt down BTAC, coupled with price increases & allocation, should result in somewhat of a boon to good quality standbys such as VOB, OGD & others. Of course, when the $$ all leads back to Sazerac or Beam, I guess said companies cannot be concerned with losing customers for the high end stuff since it is allegedly in short supply as it is.

Recently, I brought home a VOB 100 after having ignored it for many a year. It is much better than I remember and at least for me, was a natural place to turn after finding nothing but rising prices on everything else that I would have normally considered. All in all, if I'm 'confined' to Barton, all is well.

squire
12-08-2012, 11:07
Polishes the whisky, eh? Guess that's a nice way of saying it gets the hog tracks out.

JDC20
12-08-2012, 14:55
I think I have identified the problem:

Really like VOB = heavy pours = headache

Theres probably a little truth in that equation. :lol:

tmckenzie
12-09-2012, 11:13
Polishes the whisky, eh? Guess that's a nice way of saying it gets the hog tracks out.
Sometimes you need a few hawg tracks.