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Flyfish
05-29-2013, 13:22
This afternoon I enjoyed a couple nice pours of EWSB '03 neat, with a drop, and on ice. Got some rich chocolate and coffee, like choco-covered espresso beans, and citrus, as well as the other usual suspects. In addition, I really enjoyed the rich, silky mouthfeel. Perhaps you SBers with better chemistry knowledge can tell if mouthfeel is a result of corn (but all bourbon has that) or wood (but they get that as well) or age. EWSB is 10 years old, give or take. Is age a factor? Mouthfeel is really important to me and it would be nice to know what factors contribute to it.

squire
05-29-2013, 14:01
There is so much commonality among Bourbon mashbills that alone should not account for the differences in mouth feel I have experienced with different brands. I supposed it had more to do with barrel influence and position in the warehouse but really have no clear evidence of why.

tanstaafl2
05-29-2013, 14:06
Congeners! When in doubt always say congeners!

Yeti
05-29-2013, 14:07
IMO the most important single element (and be sure there are many contributing factors that should all be considered) is chill-filtering, or more specifically, the lack thereof. Chill-filtering strips whiskey of the fats and esters and other congeners that give whiskey a lot of its unique viscosity and mouthfeel. It may also alter flavor, although a lot of pseudo-scientific anecdotal evidence is split on this issue.

squire
05-29-2013, 14:12
When in doubt get a second opinion, pour another drink.

smknjoe
05-29-2013, 14:31
I don't know, but great viscosity is one of the attributes that I love about OWA.

squire
05-29-2013, 14:40
Proof seems to have a bit to do with it as well.

Balcones Winston
05-29-2013, 16:46
Oils, fats, acids, tannins, alcohol, water, to name a few.

The style of production, type of wood, age, and many other factors will dictate the various concentrations of these components.

393foureyedfox
05-29-2013, 16:52
i like the 'bite' i get from the high/barrel proofers, but thats from the alcohol concentration.anything below 90 seems to not have that at all. the higher the better!

Balcones Winston
05-29-2013, 16:52
i like the 'bite' i get from the high/barrel proofers, but thats from the alcohol concentration.anything below 90 seems to not have that at all. the higher the better!

Everything in a barrel proof whiskey is more concentrated except for the water :)

Don_Draper
05-29-2013, 19:34
i like the 'bite' i get from the high/barrel proofers, but thats from the alcohol concentration.anything below 90 seems to not have that at all. the higher the better!

I felt the same way a month ago. But your pallet will change and you will appreciate the lower proof bourbons again.

393foureyedfox
05-29-2013, 19:51
I felt the same way a month ago. But your pallet will change and you will appreciate the lower proof bourbons again.

i never did appreciate the lower (80-90) proofers. If thats all there is, i'll just have a soda. i tried lower proof stuff here and there for years, it never did anything for me, so i'd go a year or two before sipping another.....when i got to try 110+ proofers, i decided there was something to bourbon after all, i just had to find my niche.

Don_Draper
05-29-2013, 19:54
Maybe so. But I implore you to try Garrison Bros. i drink mostly barrel proof, but this 90 proofer hit me in the mouth.

tmckenzie
05-30-2013, 02:57
still proof in my opinion has the most effect. the lower the proof, the more stuff left in the whiskey to give it mouth feel.

squire
05-30-2013, 04:28
That makes sense Tom, I had thought that might be the case.

fricky
05-30-2013, 05:00
I doubt that anyone knows with any degree of confidence what causes
a more viscous mouthfeel. It is not likely caused by one factor.
If the causes were identified, couldn't one assume that distilleries
would control them?

squire
05-30-2013, 05:14
fricky is correct, the distillerys can control such things though I expect cost cutting to stay competitive is the limiting factor.

393foureyedfox
05-30-2013, 06:44
Maybe so. But I implore you to try Garrison Bros. i drink mostly barrel proof, but this 90 proofer hit me in the mouth.

Ive not seen it here in KY, but from what ive read about the price, while it is supposedly good, i'll pick up a couple bottles of Booker's instead....

squire
05-30-2013, 07:27
393 would you please direct me to the favorable reviews of Garrison.

scratchline
05-30-2013, 07:53
I know a link to this article has been posted before but thought I'd repost since it deals with chill-filtration's effect on the taste and mouthfeel of whiskey. The results may surprise you.

http://www.maltmaniacs.net/E-pistles/Malt_Maniacs_2012_01_The%20Taste%20of%20Chill%20Fi ltration.pdf

This passage from the article jumps out:

"As mentioned above, notes from the session show some level of consistency in regards to nose and palate, but the notes on mouthfeel are quite inconsistent, suggesting that mouthfeel terms are understood and used very differently."

I've had plenty of chill-filtered whiskey that had very heavy mouthfeel. On Memorial day, I toured Bowman distillery and the tour guide was very emphatic and proud about the fact that they chill-filter. He made a special point of it.

squire
05-30-2013, 09:52
Very good point Mike, I don't think chill filtering is the bugaboo some people seem to think.

black mamba
05-30-2013, 10:39
I would love to ask Jim Rutledge this question, since from the 80 pf YL to the 120 pf SBs all 4R offerings have had that lush mouthfeel to me.

Somehow, though, I doubt he'd divulge all his secrets!

squire
05-30-2013, 10:44
Oh ask him anyway, I'd rather hear Jim's musings than others dissemination.

393foureyedfox
05-30-2013, 12:23
squire, i cant recall where i read it. Ive been reading everything i can find about bourbons lately, trying to figure out which bourbons lean which ways, to help me figure out what to buy next. sorry i cant point it out....

squire
05-30-2013, 12:44
I only asked because I couldn't recall favorable reviews myself.

sailor22
05-30-2013, 13:44
I asked Mr Rutledge those questions last fall when he was here in Tallahassee. He said he feels that chill filtering removes some flavors. I asked why he thought so many of the dusties we were sipping had better mouth feel.

"Is it the way it's produced today or is it just...the era?" I asked.

He considered the question a moment and replied, "It's the era, everything was different."

One of the dusties we were sipping was an ER that 4R had made back in the day. If he could make it like that today I'm sure he would.

black mamba
05-30-2013, 13:47
I took you up on it, squire, and Jim's response was:

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your email.

Our motto at Four Roses is: “Always Mellow and Always Smooth.” Most Bourbon drinkers trying Four Roses for the first time will nearly always guess the strength (proof) far less than it actually is. For example, when I conduct Bourbon tasting events and someone tries Four Roses Single Barrel for the first time I nearly always ask them to guess the alcohol strength, and more than 80% will guess it between 80 and 86 proof and the majority of those people will guess it closer to 80 proof. People are usually amazed when I tell them they’ve just sampled a 1000 Bourbon. There’s a cost involved with consistently generating our mellow and smooth Bourbon. To achieve great flavor, smoothness and mellowness we’d be fighting an Uphill battle that we could never consistently win without using the best raw materials. The distillation process cannot overcome the negatives generated by inferior grains. This is our 53rd consecutive year to acquire our corn from the same small geographic area in south central Indiana. We pay a premium to our farmers to get the “Best” of their crops not all…and they work hard to ensure the grain they deliver is the best of the best. They don’t want to risk losing the additional income. Four Roses uses more rye grain than any of the other seven major KY distilleries. We look at rye crops grown around the world annually to acquire the best rye possible. We’ve sourced our rye this year from Germany. Last year our rye was grown in Denmark. I believe the best rye I’ve ever smelled and tasted was out of Sweden during a 4 out of 5 year period in the late `90’s and early 2000’s, but with climate changes we’re finding Germany and Denmark are currently producing the most mellow rye with gentle spices.

Our philosophy is: If we want to fill bottles with the best of the best Bourbon we can produce we must begin with the best raw materials available, and that’s what we do.

I hope this answers your question and I thank you very much for your interest in Four Roses Bourbon, and I sincerely appreciate your support of our Bourbons.

If you have additional questions please don’t hesitate to ask.

Cheers,

Jim Rutledge

Master Distiller
Four Roses Distillery

smknjoe
05-30-2013, 14:05
I only asked because I couldn't recall favorable reviews myself.

Not even ONE positive review.


I took you up on it, squire, and Jim's response was:

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your email.

Our motto at Four Roses is: “Always Mellow and Always Smooth.” Most Bourbon drinkers trying Four Roses for the first time will nearly always guess the strength (proof) far less than it actually is. For example, when I conduct Bourbon tasting events and someone tries Four Roses Single Barrel for the first time I nearly always ask them to guess the alcohol strength, and more than 80% will guess it between 80 and 86 proof and the majority of those people will guess it closer to 80 proof. People are usually amazed when I tell them they’ve just sampled a 1000 Bourbon. There’s a cost involved with consistently generating our mellow and smooth Bourbon. To achieve great flavor, smoothness and mellowness we’d be fighting an Uphill battle that we could never consistently win without using the best raw materials. The distillation process cannot overcome the negatives generated by inferior grains. This is our 53rd consecutive year to acquire our corn from the same small geographic area in south central Indiana. We pay a premium to our farmers to get the “Best” of their crops not all…and they work hard to ensure the grain they deliver is the best of the best. They don’t want to risk losing the additional income. Four Roses uses more rye grain than any of the other seven major KY distilleries. We look at rye crops grown around the world annually to acquire the best rye possible. We’ve sourced our rye this year from Germany. Last year our rye was grown in Denmark. I believe the best rye I’ve ever smelled and tasted was out of Sweden during a 4 out of 5 year period in the late `90’s and early 2000’s, but with climate changes we’re finding Germany and Denmark are currently producing the most mellow rye with gentle spices.

Our philosophy is: If we want to fill bottles with the best of the best Bourbon we can produce we must begin with the best raw materials available, and that’s what we do.

I hope this answers your question and I thank you very much for your interest in Four Roses Bourbon, and I sincerely appreciate your support of our Bourbons.

If you have additional questions please don’t hesitate to ask.

Cheers,

Jim Rutledge

Master Distiller
Four Roses Distillery

So good ingredients and good know how. Thank goodness for Jim's know how.

black mamba
05-30-2013, 14:33
So good ingredients and good know how. Thank goodness for Jim's know how.

And also for his rapid and thoughtful response to my email! 'Atta boy, Jim!

squire
05-30-2013, 16:06
Very commendable. . . . . . . . . .

393foureyedfox
05-30-2013, 16:46
a prompt, courteous, genuine reply from someone who obviously takes pride in his occupation....not just a paycheck. I've only had one shot of 4R, and it was a barrel proof that I tried in a bar in Cincinnatti, and it was very nice. I thought to myself "Four Roses is an entirely appropriate name for a taste like this". His response is prompting me to buy some of their stuff.

MyOldKyDram
05-30-2013, 16:48
As well you should. Best in the biz for my money.

HighHorse
05-30-2013, 17:59
And that doggedness dedication to quality .. even in the face of what has now become years of corporate pressure .. is why Jim Rutledge is deserving of his Hall of Fame status. He's a giant among Master Distillers.

Keep in mind that here is a man who came to his trade from the research labs in NYC and was sent to KY to "fix" Four Roses. He felt he had six months to accomplish that task and just look at what he pulled off. Ten recipes with ingredients he searches the world to find. Amazing.

Sorry for the jumping the rail on the thread.

mosugoji64
05-30-2013, 20:23
And that doggedness dedication to quality .. even in the face of what has now become years of corporate pressure .. is why Jim Rutledge is deserving of his Hall of Fame status. He's a giant among Master Distillers.

Keep in mind that here is a man who came to his trade from the research labs in NYC and was sent to KY to "fix" Four Roses. He felt he had six months to accomplish that task and just look at what he pulled off. Ten recipes with ingredients he searches the world to find. Amazing.

Sorry for the jumping the rail on the thread.

No, no. Don't apologize. Mr. Rutledge deserves any accolades he gets!

Yeti
05-30-2013, 20:24
As well you should. Best in the biz for my money.

Co-signed.

This really is a mysterious question the more I ponder it. I think we can all make an argument, from our own experiences, that great mouthfeel exists in bourbon from all variables. Maybe "old-bottle-effect" has an effect as well?

squire
05-31-2013, 08:03
Bourbon has the ineffable quality of making me feel good all over.