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Gillman
08-30-2004, 14:48
There have been threads (I checked) that have touched on aspects of the Manhattan cocktail. E.g., what is the Perfect Manhattan, whether rye or Bourbon should be used, whether old whiskey goes well in Manhattans and other such tangents. None of these simply asked people, how do you make your Manhattan and why do you like it? So I propose this question now.

Here is my own reply: I like a Manhattan made with almost any kind of U.S. or Canadian whiskey, preferably a rye whiskey or rye-oriented bourbon, but any good whiskey will do. I use red vermouth only, any kind will do except the imitations made in Canada by some wineries. Bitters are essential, any kind. Cherry is essential, red only (recently I was served a Manhattan cocktail with a green cherry lurid in the bottom; did this explain the light headache the next day A.M.? http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). I like both rocks and straight-up Manhattans. Proportions: a strict 3:1 whiskey to vermouth. I like Manhattans because the herbs in the vermouth and sweetness meld into the whiskey giving a complex taste, one (too) that seems old-fashioned, an old-time compound from when people did not abjure strong tastes. The Manhattan is flexible but only up to a point. Although I don't use white vermouth or mixtures of red and white, I can see why the Eastern Establishment were fussy about the correct type and amount to use. Small changes to the drink can affect the taste noticeably - mixology requires exactitude and good ingredients, and the right touch - and good company.

How do you make your Manhattan if you like one? What are its merits in ypur view?

Gary

cowdery
08-31-2004, 11:22
I think you can use any American or Canadian whiskey, but the better the whiskey the better the drink. Even American blended whiskey makes a pretty good Manhattan. I think the vermouth does make a difference. Martini & Rossi is very acceptable and has the advantage of being widely available in 375 ml bottles. Noilly Pratt is better, but hard to find and usually only available in 750 ml bottles, one of which will last me about 20 years. I do like a dash of bitters. Cherry is a must. Ratio of whiskey to vermouth I probably prefer 4:1 but 3:1 is okay and I frequently just free pour and guess. I don't drink Manhattans often but I do like them. Most suplime Manhattan experience was a Manhattan made with Blanton's at the Ritz-Carlton's bar in, well, Manhattan.

Dave_in_Canada
08-31-2004, 12:38
Gary that's a good question.

I think the Manhattan is one of the most abused recipes of all time (not to mention the Martini) which has allowed for a wide variety of choice/opinions. Most recipes I've seen tend to lower percentages of whiskey (eg. 2:1 or 3:1), but Whisk(e)y connoisseurs generally prefer a higher percentage (eg, 4:1). Some recent recipes even omit the red vermouth (sacrilegious). In Canada and possibly many US bars, the Manhattan is poured from a "well" Rye which in fact contains very little rye thus very little flavour, thus needing more vermouth and bitters.

I personally prefer my Manhattan WITHOUT a cherry, now how's that for sacrilegious! I can't get ahold of a good cherry that's not a maraschino. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

cowdery
08-31-2004, 12:56
The thing with martinis especially has become ridiculous. It seems that the only requirement for calling something a martini is that it be served in a martini glass. Of course, I'm so old school I question the legitimacy of the vodka martini.

Dave_in_Canada
08-31-2004, 13:05
vodka martini



How about a "Gin & Tonic" made with vodka (ie. no gin???)

(sorry about the hijack. I won't do it again) http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

OneCubeOnly
08-31-2004, 13:09
My perfect Manhattan uses rye: it's a 4:1 mixture of VWFR Rye 13yo + Martini & Rossi red vermouth with two hefty shakes of Angostura bitters. One maraschino cherry is optional but recommended.

Interestingly enough, as much as I love a straight rye Manhattan, the high-rye bourbons (like OGD 114) don't seem to taste as good to me as the more finesse ones. My theory is that the vermouth takes the edge off the rye notes, so what you're tasting is whatever's left. (ie. rye bourbon without the rye!?)

My experience has been that the stuff that's left is http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/puke.gif

lakegz
09-01-2004, 01:41
vodka martini



How about a "Gin & Tonic" made with vodka (ie. no gin???)

(sorry about the hijack. I won't do it again) http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif





for reals, i was at a bar and they served "vodka-tonics" i was puzzled because, with a vodka and tonic, where would the flavor come from?whats the point? oh well, my college peers loved it.(girls)

OneCubeOnly
09-01-2004, 04:35
(I hope this isn't a hijack!)

Speaking of Manhattans (& martinis), how do you guys feel about the whole "bruising the gin" or "bruising the spirits" thing? Personally, I shake the bejeezus out of anything that goes in the shaker. The output isn't as pretty (you get a cloudy drink), but it seems better blended. Is there any merit to the whole "bruising" thing?

jbutler
09-01-2004, 11:07
(sorry about the hijack. I won't do it again)




http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/deadhorse.gif

DaveM getting thrashed in public for his recalcitrance. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Dave_in_Canada
09-01-2004, 11:38
OUCH! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

ratcheer
09-01-2004, 15:26
I don't know that I ever drink Manhattan cocktails. When we were discussing them a year or so ago, I ordered one in a bar one evening. It never came. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Tim

dgonano
09-01-2004, 15:52
For myself 3 to 1 ratio makes a fine drink ( rye or bourbon). I add a few drops of bitters and a cherry is a must. For guests who request Canadian, a 2 to 1 ratio with bitters , a cherry and a slice of orange.

pepcycle
09-01-2004, 18:42
I like a Maraschino Cherry Infused Bourbon, a cherry and the bitters. I make the infusion with drained maraschino's and soak them with WT 101 or OGD BIB. The extra proof is needed with the pomegranate taste of the maraschinos.
I love them shakin' till little shards of ice will be strained into the chilled glass.
BTW: I discard all the juice from the cherries. You can tell when the bourbon is ready because the cherries get "Bleached" to a pale brick red.
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/drink.gif

Aside: Are grenadine, maraschino cherry juice and sweetened pomegranate juice essentially the same???

OneCubeOnly
09-01-2004, 19:27
I love them shakin' till little shards of ice will be strained into the chilled glass.



Okay, there's one vote for "bruising" is okay. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Since nobody else has voiced their opinions, I did a Google search and it looks like there are mixed opinions (http://tinyurl.com/5ezzd) about it. If you're into martinis there are some good webpages in that list.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

tlsmothers
09-01-2004, 19:44
Grenadine is supposed to be based on pomegranate juice. Not the same as maraschino at all. A common misconconception is that grenadine is cherry flavored.

tlsmothers
09-01-2004, 19:47
The only way to go is with rye. Try a VW rye with Vya sweet vermouth. Vya kicks a** compared to other vermouths. I even drink it straight.

lakegz
09-02-2004, 00:18
Pomegranite in Spanish is Granada or sometimes spelled Grenada. so its safe to say Grenadine juice is from a pomegranite.

wadewood
09-02-2004, 09:29
Rose's Grenadine, a popular brand, IMHO is sweetened colored water. It does state it contains natural flavor but does not list pomegranate. (is spelling nite or Nate?).

There is a brand of pomegranate juice that can purchased in refrigerated section of grocery store: POM (http://www.pomwonderful.com/index.asp)

They sell a 100% juice version. I have used this with a simple sugar syrup to make my own grenadine.

kitzg
09-09-2004, 06:29
Thanks for the vermouth tip!

OneCubeOnly
09-09-2004, 09:07
So far I've come up empty finding the Vya. Just lots of Tribuno and Martini & Rossi. I'll have to look in Maryland on my next sale run.

voigtman
09-09-2004, 15:02
I just checked their website ( http://www.vya.com/ ) and distribution is very limited for the total production of 800 cases. Just single locations in MA, MD, VA and just 2 locations in NY. Of course, they ship to lucky folks in the reciprocity states. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/banghead.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/banghead.gif If I ever see a bottle, I'm going to snag it.

dgonano
09-09-2004, 18:22
Just single locations in MA, MD, VA and just 2 locations in NY.



Those listed are the importers or wholesalers, so your local retailer should easily be able to place an order.

wadewood
09-10-2004, 18:42
I was downtown Seattle today and wondered in the wine shop across from the Pike Place market. They had Vya vermouth; spendy at 12.99 for a 375ml bottle, but is very tasty. I'm trying a little straight, but plan to make a Manhattan with VWFR Rye later tonight.

My last post for the week. We fly to Lexington in the morning. I'm leaving work and my laptop behind.

gr8erdane
09-11-2004, 18:54
Up to this point, the only manhattan I had ever tried was the Apple Manhattan concoction MM had at the Sampler this year and I wasn't overly impressed with that expression.

Well, I finally broke down to try a Manhattan using the formulation most seem to agree on here. I actually found a 350ml bottle of Noilly Pratt Sweet Vermouth, mixed it in the three to one ratio with my favorite rye VWFRR 13, added a dash of bitters and a cherry. Now comes the question. Do Angostura Bitters go bad or is this drink supposed to taste like licking an ash tray? That's the taste I got and really had to push myself to finish the drink. Bad bitters is the only explanation I can come up with for this. I've had the bottle for as long as I can remember but had never opened it prior to this occasion.

bobbyc
09-11-2004, 19:10
Do Angostura Bitters go bad



I guess anything can happen but the proofage is so high on those I imagine that a bottle should conceivably last indefinately. I tasted a drop of them and cannot label the flavor with any ashtray attributes. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Gillman
09-11-2004, 20:30
Bitters can't go bad. I think the burned taste may have come from using extra-aged whiskey. Try it again, Dane, with a younger bourbon or blended whiskey. You can't go wrong, the way you made it (whiskey choice apart) sounds faultless.

Gary

cowdery
09-11-2004, 21:29
Don't know what "dash" means to you, but literally one drop of bitters is enough. Sounds like too much bitters to me.

I also agree with Gary. Use a more moderate whiskey. It's worth another try.

gr8erdane
09-11-2004, 23:32
When I said dash, I did mean drops, two of them and I guess that must have been too much as you say. I may have to experiment in the morning (after working all night of course) and try again. And as Gary has suggested, will use a little younger whiskey. I'll review notes to see if there are any younger recommendations.

OneCubeOnly
09-12-2004, 04:58
I usually go pretty heavy on the bitters, but I'm trying to cut the sweetness of Martini & Rossi vermouth. I can't imagine bitters going bad. Try a midshelf bourbon you enjoy drinking straight with the same recipe.

cowdery
09-12-2004, 18:20
All this talk made me thirsty for a manhattan so I mixed one up from Rittenhouse Rye 100. It was sublime.

RyeCatcher
09-13-2004, 16:00
All this talk made me thirsty for a manhattan so I mixed one up from Rittenhouse Rye 100. It was sublime.



I love a good Manhattan and by "good Manhattan" I pretty much mean one I made myself. Unless you've found once of those rare bartenders that has a CLUE, they'll screw it up.

My favorite recipe is actually made with Jim Beam Rye -- very snappy and peppery, and a nice complement to the sweetness of the other ingredients.

Gillman
09-20-2004, 15:54
Here is one I just made myself (agreed, always the best kind). One ounce Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye (from F #840, a very good sample), one ounce Lot 40 (thus a blending of a well-aged rye and a younger, sharper one), half-ounce Nouilly Prat red vermouth, dash Peychaud's bitters, single red cherry. No ice. This has to be one of the world's great drinks but it seems to come into its own when made with good rye whiskey. In my version, the rye tangs come through (age and youth well-balanced) but are moderated by the fruity vermouth and counter-pointed by the further tangs of the bitters.

I can see Bulleit being the perfect straight whiskey to make a deep red Manhattan, by the way.

Gary

tlsmothers
09-21-2004, 18:12
Darn, I knew I shoulda brought Manhattan makin's to the Gazebo. I coulda tried your Lot 40 secret ingredient. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

If anybody has a hard time getting the Vya, just lemme know. I can ship it without the same hassle as "the hard stuff." PM me if you need some help.

Regarding bitters, I love using the Fee Brothers much better than Angostura. Hard to find. I traipsed around Jamaica Queens through a rough neighborhood to find a coffee house wholesaler that sales it.

musher
09-21-2004, 19:30
Regarding bitters, I love using the Fee Brothers much better than Angostura. Hard to find. I traipsed around Jamaica Queens through a rough neighborhood to find a coffee house wholesaler that sales it.



Any thoughts about Peychaud's Bitters compared to these two?

Gillman
09-21-2004, 21:13
Thanks for your comments, and Jeff's, re Lot 40. Truth is, another rye combination in a Manhattan would work as well. Say, Jim Beam Rye and Saz 18 year old rye 50/50. The thing is to get a balance in the main component.

Gary

Markw
09-22-2004, 16:58
I can see Bulleit being the perfect straight whiskey to make a deep red Manhattan, by the way.

Gary



I've experimented with Manhattans, and I agree about the Bulleit. I made some Manhattans with Van Winkle Rye reserve and I thought that the result was big and ponderous. The straight rye was better, I thought. It reminded me of a big fat intense wine that is waaay too low in acidity. That leaves the flavors mushy and unfocused.

I'm drinking a Manhattan now with one ounce Bulleit, a third ounce of Noilly Prat vermouth, and two drops of Peychaud's. I don't have a cherry, but I can see how it would fit. This is a lot better. The brighter flavors of the younger whiskey fit in better. Then, I added just a little Van Winkle Rye. Now, it is perfect. Ahhhh.

I've been tasting wines continuously for 25 years, and I never thought I'd ever drink a manhattan. Then I discovered bourbon and straightbourbon.com! Thanks to all, and to Gary for pointing out how interesting the Manhattan can be.

-Mark W http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/yum.gif

tlsmothers
09-23-2004, 14:19
I find the Fee Brothers old fashioned bitters to be the most aromatic and flavorful. I get much more pungent clove and cinnamon. The Angostura has the most bitterness. I find the Peychaud to be the lightest and sweetest of the three.

Fee also makes orange bitters and peach bitters. Quite nice, as well. I often throw them into cocktails.

Gillman
09-23-2004, 16:18
Interesting. Orange bitters, which I have never tried, are the classic original additive to a gin martini. Whenever you read those 1940's-1960's manuals on drink by louche members of the British upper class, invariably they say (you can envision the langour), "orange bitters WERE de rigeur but seem lately to have been dispensed with". http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gary

tlsmothers
09-25-2004, 11:42
You are dead on, my friend! Exciting to know there are other cocktail maniacs out here. Actually the Rob Roy, Robert Burns, Alaska, Bijou, plus many more were made with orange bitters.

The only thing I don't like about the peach bitters Fee makes is that they add some artificial flavoring, but the orange is all natural.

Gillman
09-25-2004, 12:12
From, "An Encyclopedia of Drinks and Drinking", by Frederic Martin (Coles, 1978):

"...two ladies, mother and daughter, came into (a) bar. They ordered and said father would be along and he would like a very dry Dry Martini. John [Perosino, of the May Fair Bar, London] made one (he is good) and when the man had finished it he said he would have another, but drier. John did his waive-the-vermouth-bottle-act when the shadow of it falls on the gin. Excellent, said the man but he would like one more - and this time really dry. This nonplussed John, but he had a brainwave. Instead of leaving out the vermouth, he omitted the gin. 'Now that's what I call a wonderful martini', commented the customer. How can you win?".

Gary http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ratcheer
09-26-2004, 06:52
I seem to recall an anecdote about Winston Churchill, who said he just "glanced at a bottle of vermouth from across the room".

Tim

lakegz
10-02-2004, 11:46
i have to say i had my very first Manhattan last night and i was kind of dissapointed. Ill blame the bartender on this one because when i ordered it, he looked kinda bewildered as if he had trouble recalling the recipe. i had him use Wild Turkey 101 but i didnt see what type of vermouth or bitters he used. I have to say though that it got much tastier as i got to the bottom of the glass as the cherry was giving off some nice sweetness. Before that though, it just tasted like diluted bourbon. That good flavor that arrived halfway through the drink is motivating me to give it another try tonight.

OneCubeOnly
10-02-2004, 16:29
You really have to make your own. It's pretty much one of those "if you want it done right do it yourself" kind of affairs.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

tlsmothers
10-03-2004, 15:12
I often find that "uneducated" bartenders will shake the hell out of anything so you often ended up with an overly diluted cocktail. Maybe that's what happened.

lakegz
10-30-2004, 17:54
I seem to recall an anecdote about Winston Churchill, who said he just "glanced at a bottle of vermouth from across the room".

Tim



haha, i remember a similiar churchill anecdote syaing that simply passing the cork from the vermouth bottle to the gin was sufficient.

cowdery
11-22-2004, 12:54
Gary Regan is a big Manhattan fan. When I saw him recently, he had the bartender make him a Manhattan using EWSB 94 (it was a Heaven Hill event), then he took the bitters bottle and added close to 20 shakes of bitters, rather than the usual one or two. It was quite tasty and pretty soon he was making them for everyone that way.

Gillman
11-22-2004, 18:58
Sounds like there was no vermouth in the house.

If there was (and it was used) 20 shakes of bitters would, by my lights, ruin a great drink. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gary

cowdery
11-22-2004, 23:08
Vermouth was used in its normal proportions. Try it some time, it was good. (But, you know, sometimes you just get caught up in the moment too.)

On the other hand, at TRU recently (me dropping name of trendiest restaurant in Chicago) I had a Woodford Reserve manhattan (they were buying) ruined by an over abundance of vermouth, to the point where I couldn't even tell the drink contained whiskey.

It was also shaken, not stirred, a mistake for that type of drink, in my book.

lakegz
11-22-2004, 23:20
yeah, when they put too much vermouth in it, the drink really loses its solid foundation. it like having an inch of cake and 3 inches of frosting.
it's also pretty bad when they shake it up because it makes the drink come out very mushy and it looks like a mudslide, not the classic and classy manhattan.

cowdery
11-23-2004, 11:36
There seems to be a tendancy at trendy, upscale bars these days to shake everything. What's up with that?

pepcycle
11-23-2004, 14:54
A trend that apparently carried over from Gentleman's Clubs.
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

bobbyc
11-23-2004, 20:08
What bitters did they have, Chuck? Angostura? I suppose that's the common one. I keep Peychards and "Orange" bitters on hand as well, After a couple, I like to change that part. Gary makes a good do of Orange bitters and makes his own, the ingredients list is rather extensive but after it is all combined it just needs a shake every couple of days. Those bitters handmade by Gary would go good at a Gazebo function in the future! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

cowdery
11-23-2004, 23:41
Angostura. We were at Kurtz's.

Gillman
12-11-2004, 14:03
Chuck had mentioned not long ago enjoying a Manhattan made with Blanton's. I had the chance recently to try this since I still have some barrel proof Blanton (except I've let it down in the bottle to about 90 proof with Ontario spring water - I find any mineral water works except one with too much dissolved salts).

I used a Bulleit glass for this, sipping from the smaller end. I filled 'er up about half-way, 4:1 bourbon to vermouth, maybe 3.5: 1.5. I added a very little Peychaud's, just enough to add taste and only a little bitterness. One Maker's Mark cherry sits decorously in the bottom. No ice. Well, bad this could never be. It has a different taste to the rye Manhattans I generally make, richer in some ways, big and round. The heat and edge Jeff mentioned in the barrel proof Blanton are tamed in this treatment but enough pokes through to lend character. This is a fine cocktail (any good Manhattan is) but it needs careful calibration for maximum quality (by which I mean good balance: only lightly sweet, rich and whiskeyish, faintly bitter from the bitters).

Gary

Jake_Parrott
12-23-2004, 14:57
I tend to make one of two manhattans--Overholt with all sweet (about 3:1) and combo of Peychaud's/Angostura, or Evan Williams "perfect" (sweet and dry verm, though the moniker is silly) with just angostura. Recently, I made an Evan Williams manhattan and substituted a drizzle of Campari for the bitters, and it added a certain savouriness. What to call it?

CrispyCritter
04-23-2006, 15:07
I've just started trying out Manhattans... scrumptious. :yum: My first try yesterday was with Rittenhouse Rye BIB, and today's was WT Rye. In both cases I went 3:1 with Martini & Rossi red vermouth, two dashes of Angostura, a red maraschino cherry, and a teaspoon of the syrup from the jar of cherries.

Either way, it's magnificent. :drink:

I'm going to have to try some bourbon-based versions - I'm thinking standard WT101, or perhaps a wheater like Weller Antique.

Dahlrod
05-03-2006, 15:27
I like a Dry Manhattan, rocks, but with a cherry to add back in a touch of sweet. The mix, I've always been told should be 2:1, Yuck. I prefer the shadow wave or gander from across the room techniques described above. Really, a splash is all that's required, and two drops of bitters. The whiskey, I like a strong rye recipe, Bookers, WT Rare Bread, even a GTS although ethically, I just can't stand anything but a cube of filtered ice in the GTS.

I also agree with all that if you want a Manhattan done well, don't ask a bartender. Even if they do know how to make it right, Vermouth is still cheaper than whiskey, and, in my experience, will be the bulk of what you get unless you immediately tip well.

My favorite Manhattan that I can remember was at the Sheridan in Eatontown, NJ and was made with JD Single Barrel. It was the oldest "Bourbon" he had, and yes, I tipped well an early to assure the proper mix. I also had several, that always seems to add fondness to the memories, if memories serve at all.

Listening to this forum has prompted me to go pick up some Overholt Rye and give it a good Manhattan work out tonight. Man ... why the heck am I still at my desk?

CrispyCritter
07-04-2006, 07:41
On a recent outing to Sam's Wine & Spirits in Chicago, I decided to prowl the aisles a bit, and actually managed to find some Vya sweet vermouth, along with Fee's aromatic and orange bitters. The Vya was horrifically expensive at about $18 for a 375 ml bottle. :bigeyes: I also picked up the obligatory Rittenhouse BIB since my current bottle was running low.

Once I was home, I mixed a Manhattan using my usual 3:1 mix, Rittenhouse and Vya with both Fee's bitters. WOW, what a drink! However, with Vya so expensive, it's going to have to be an occasional treat; Martini & Rossi costs a lot less and still works very well.

As for the bitters, Fee's is good stuff. Now that I have five different bitters on my shelf (Angostura, Peychaud's, Regan's Orange, Fee Orange, and Fee Aromatic), I can come up with quite a variety of different setups!

BourbonJoe
07-04-2006, 09:39
:yum: My first try yesterday was with Rittenhouse Rye BIB, and today's was WT Rye. In both cases I went 3:1 with Martini & Rossi red vermouth, two dashes of Angostura, a red maraschino cherry, and a teaspoon of the syrup from the jar of cherries.



Now that's a Manhattan Mon.
Joe :usflag:

CrispyCritter
07-04-2006, 18:26
One word about Fee's Aromatic bitters - to me at least, they seem to be a lot more powerful than any of the others I've used - I can use about half as much Fee's versus Angostura or Peychaud's. I love that cinnamon/clove effect it provides.

Keep in mind that my Manhattan is a bit on the tall side; 3 oz. whiskey to 1 oz. vermouth.

By using different whiskeys, vermouths, and bitters, you can get quite a variety of tastes from one basic recipe. Rob Roys (Scotch-based) are quite nice too - and I tried what I'll call an "O'Reilly" a few days back (using Powers Gold Label Irish for the whiskey) that went down real nice. However, the BIB-type whiskeys provide some extra kick... I'm going to have to try OGD BIB sometime, to see how it compares to the WT101.

I haven't tried using something like OGD 114 or Stagg, though - I get the feeling it might be a little too strong and still go down too easy. :bigeyes:

While writing this, I finished a Rittenhouse BIB/Tribuno/Fee's Aromatic/Peychaud's variant... lovely.

cowdery
07-05-2006, 21:37
Gary Regan made the point in a recent article that bitters were once the essential ingredient in cocktails. He is a big believer, and not just in his own brand. When he makes a manhattan, he gives the bitters bottle about 14 shakes. (He doesn't count them, but I did.)

I know there are better vermouths, both white and red, than M&R, and it makes a difference in the taste of the drink, but cost usually keeps me in the M&R camp, which is, I will say, a far sight better than Gallo.

ratcheer
07-09-2006, 16:45
Gary Regan made the point in a recent article that bitters were once the essential ingredient in cocktails. He is a big believer, and not just in his own brand. When he makes a manhattan, he gives the bitters bottle about 14 shakes. (He doesn't count them, but I did.)

I know there are better vermouths, both white and red, than M&R, and it makes a difference in the taste of the drink, but cost usually keeps me in the M&R camp, which is, I will say, a far sight better than Gallo.
Chuck, I just had a Manhattan taking a cue from your post. I used Bulleit bourbon, several healthy shakes of Angostura, and more than usual M&R red. I used lots of ice cubes and drank it fairly quickly (about five minutes). It was the best Manhattan I have ever had. Outstanding!

Tim

cowdery
07-09-2006, 18:00
Glad I could help.

CrispyCritter
07-17-2006, 22:45
Earlier tonight, I tried throwing a dash of Pontarlier-Anis pastis into an OGD BIB-based Manhattan (along with Peychaud's bitters, Fee's orange bitters, and Noilly Prat red vermouth). This "Sazerated" Manhattan turned out to be quite good - but you only need 2-3 drops of the pastis - a little bit of it has a definite effect. :drink:

On a hot day, I've found that pastis served the "classic" way (some sugar and 4-5 parts ice water to 1 part pastis) is quite refreshing in its own right.

CrispyCritter
07-30-2006, 19:28
Until a couple of days ago, my choice of cherry for garnishing my Manhattans was the Collins cherry (and a teaspoon of the syrup from the jar). Recently, however, I came across a jar of Sable & Rosenfeld "Tipsy Cherries" - which included whiskey in the ingredient list. They've turned out to be distinctly better than the Collins variety. The difference is most apparent once the drink is finished and it's time to eat the cherry!

cowdery
08-09-2006, 10:16
This week I've been working on my manhattans. I came into possession recently of an old cocktail shaker, so I've been using that in my martini and manhattan preparation, and assiduously chilling the glass.

The glasses I use are old martini glasses, which are small by current martini standards and large by traditional manhattan standards, but fine for me for both.

As I suspected, the 80 proof Rittenhouse Rye is excellent for manhattans. I may like it better for this purpose than the BIB, at least when I'm using the shaker (the BIB might still be better for on-the-rocks manhattans). I may never use bourbon for a manhattan again, so delighted have I been with the results from using rye.

I usually don't measure anything but recently I have been, just to better understand and record what I'm doing. For manhattans, it's 2 shots of the Rittenhouse Rye 80 proof, 1/2 shot of M&R red vermouth and about 5 shakes of angostura bitters. No garnish.

Quite refreshing.

Gillman
08-09-2006, 10:37
That's about my approach as far as proportions go and the amount of bitters.

For the whiskey, I invariably use complex mixes but I too like a rye hit. Yesterday I fashioned a mix that was probably 80% bourbons and the rest Canadians and some straight rye. It just had no "middle", no rye edge. I poured in some Lot 40 and it was fine. I could have used Rittenhouse too or Overholt for this purpose.

I have found with bitters something odd (to me). Initially I added literally very few drops, almost as if I used an eyedropper, because I found two shakes made it too bitter. But then I tried from 3-5 shakes and it actually gave a better balance: the flavour of the bitters came through but not the bitterness. I am still trying to figure that one out. So, while I won't go as far as the 20 shakes advised by some (I think Jim Murray likes mucho bitters), you do need (I find) to use a certain amount.

On balance I like Peycheaud's bitters better than Angostura but the latter is good too.

I am still adding cherries but I discard them after, I like the effect (visually) in the glass.

No ice unless it is an unusually warm day. If I do add ice, it goes in in one chunk, shaved ice tends I find to mask or change the flavour of the drink. However shaking it and pouring it up is fine if the shaking is not prolonged.

Gary

BourbonJoe
08-09-2006, 14:09
I am still adding cherries but I discard them after, I like the effect (visually) in the glass.

Gary

Go ahead and eat the cherries Gary. They are super when soaked in all that booze.
Joe :usflag:

Gillman
08-09-2006, 14:31
I know Joe but calories, calories.. :)

Gary

CrispyCritter
08-09-2006, 20:42
Given my liking of variety, my Manhattans tend to vary a bit - but one thing has been constant so far - the 3:1 whiskey-to-vermouth ratio.

I've done some reading up about vermouths, and Punt e Mes sounds intriguing, as it has bitters in its recipe. I've seen a recommendation of going to 5:1 for Punt e Mes, rather than the 2-to-4:1 of most Manhattan recipes.

I still haven't tried using white vermouth instead of red (or a mix of the two). Should I bother, or just reserve the white for martinis?

jeff
08-10-2006, 04:29
Given my liking of variety, my Manhattans tend to vary a bit - but one thing has been constant so far - the 3:1 whiskey-to-vermouth ratio.

I've done some reading up about vermouths, and Punt e Mes sounds intriguing, as it has bitters in its recipe. I've seen a recommendation of going to 5:1 for Punt e Mes, rather than the 2-to-4:1 of most Manhattan recipes.

I still haven't tried using white vermouth instead of red (or a mix of the two). Should I bother, or just reserve the white for martinis?

When I make manhattans I use the same 3:1 ratio, but for the 1 part vermouth I use equal parts dry and sweet. Seems to dry out the drink a little bit more. To me, sometimes the sweet vermouth can overpower the whiskey to it's detriment, but using less doesn't work either. A mixture of vermouths adds flavor without too much sweetness.

cowdery
08-10-2006, 13:26
The use of equal parts dry and sweet vermouth has a venerable heritage and even a name, the Perfect Manhattan.

CrispyCritter
08-21-2006, 19:28
From the "orange" thread:


By the same token, some bourbons are so sweet themselves that sweet vermouth seems beside the point when mixing Manhattans. I've learned the hard way to go very easy with the vermouth, particularly more unusual brands like Vya and Punt e Mes.
I have a bit of a sweet tooth, so when I used Vya red vermouth, I went with my usual 3:1 (but I, as usual, added bitters of one sort or another). It was first-rate, but Vya is expensive enough to be reserved for the occasional premium drink.

As for Punt e Mes, I finally got myself a bottle of it and gave it a go. Everything I've read indicates that one should go easy with Punt e Mes, so I mixed it at about 5.5:1. That worked very well, using Sazerac Jr. as the whiskey. Punt e Mes has bitters already in it, and it seems to be a particularly strong variety of bitters. I used just a splash of Peychaud's in this drink as well, but that probably didn't have much effect - you really don't need to add bitters with this vermouth.

Gillman
08-21-2006, 20:33
Early Manhattan recipes call for sugar syrup and vermouth. It sounds like "too much", and maybe it was, but actually it can be very good made this way. Possibly all vermouth at the time was quite bitter, like Punt es Mes, so some plain sugar addition helped. I scale down the vermouth and sugar - you don't need a lot of each but the result is often better than with vermouth alone. Sometimes I use a dash of maple syrup instead of plain syrup, or half a teaspoon of brown sugar. If the vermouth is bland, I'll add bitters. Sounds like it isn't needed with Punt e Mes and probably not with Amer Picon.

Gary

Edward_call_me_Ed
09-11-2006, 02:57
I am finally having a proper Manhattan. The first time I made one I used a very dry white vermouth, Martini's, and Martini's bitter aperitif for the bitters. I didn't know any better at the time. I did know that it wasn't a drink I wanted to have a second time. Today I got some proper aromatic bitters, Hermes, which is made by Suntory. A while ago I got some Noily Pratt red vermouth.

My first Manhattan today was made with Old Grand Dad 114. No ice. A little too much vermouth, it think. It was probably between 4:1 and 3:1. Later I added a little more OGD 114, still too much vermouth. All in all it was a very good drink.

Right now I am drinking a WT Rye 5:1 or so. Both were made with two shakes. I don't seem to be able to shake the bottle less than two times. (With hot sauce I shake till my arm gets tired...) This time I added one cube. It is even better than the first.

Ed

Vange
09-15-2006, 08:26
I only recently had my first good Manhattan at Edward's steakhouse in Jersey City, NJ. The bartender made it great, but I didn't see how she made it and I didn't order them. I do know they were made with Crown Royal.

A few questions I have:

1) If I goto a bar/restaurant and want to order it, is there a certain way to order a Manhattan to ensure a "good" Manhattan?

2) Would this receipe work for me to make them at home?

Combine this all over ice in a cocktail shaker (but dont shake!)

VW Rye or Bulleit 3 parts (or should this be 4 parts?)
Vya sweet vermouth 1 part (I can get it in NJ for $15 a 750 ml)
1-2 dashes of Peychards Bitters or Fee aromatic bitters
1 mar. cherry

Stir it with my bar spoon and pour into a glass with no ice.

How's that?

ratcheer
09-15-2006, 15:05
In my opinion, that would be a very good recipe. Its not the way I make them, but that is a great prescription for a classic Manhattan.

Tim

CrispyCritter
09-15-2006, 21:41
I'd agree that this is a very good starting point. You might want to experiment with mixing ratios and brands of whiskey and vermouth.

I usually use 3:1 whiskey:vermouth, 5:1 if I use Punt e Mes and don't make a Red Hook (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5837&highlight=red+hook). For standard vermouths, I usually use Martini & Rossi or Noilly Prat red; Vya red is expensive but outstanding.

Next time I run out of red vermouth, I'm going to grab a bottle of Carpano Antica Formula to try out.

Vange
09-16-2006, 06:52
Bitters are not easy to come by I noticed!

Joeluka
09-16-2006, 08:16
Bitters are not easy to come by I noticed!

LeNell's has an amazing selection. She will also ship it to you. Go to her web-site and you can see what she has.

ratcheer
09-16-2006, 11:47
Bitters are not easy to come by I noticed!

I don't use the fancy bitters that you are looking for, but I can find Angostura at Wal-Mart.

Tim

Edward_call_me_Ed
09-17-2006, 10:07
In my current experiments in this line, I am down (up?) around 5:1 to the red vermouth and with two or more shakes of the bitters I have. Three small ice cubes.
Ed

cowdery
09-18-2006, 09:45
How to ensure a good manhattan in a bar? Good question.

I would start by thinking about what kind of bar it is. I wouldn't hesitate to order a manhattan in a good steakhouse, for example, but in place where most of the patrons are drinking bottled beer, I might. I probably would just order "a manhattan" and see what happens. I'm always a little afraid that giving instructions may actually get you a lesser drink. Calling the whiskey might help. The simplest way to do it is to say the whiskey brand, followed by the word "manhattan," i.e., "a Wild Turkey Manhattan."

About 20 years ago, when I was dating a certain woman, manhattans became our thing. I thought I was safe ordering them anywhere in Louisville. Boy was I wrong. Ordered one once and got the most god-awful stuff, probably a pre-mix long past its expiration date. I have been much more careful ever since. (Also more careful about women, but that's another story.)

Best manhattan ever? On a tip from Gary Regan, I asked for a Blanton's Manhattan from a certain bartender at a certain establishment in NYC. Sublime! The standard I have been trying to meet ever since.

rlovingjr
10-05-2006, 11:34
When I get back to the house this evening I am going to create my first manhattan at home. I have a friend of the family that makes them but they are too sweet for my taste. (think uses a splash of the cherry juice)

The recipe

3 parts Old Grand Dad 114
1 part Noilly Prat red vermouth
Dash of bitters - (has anyone tried the Fernet Branca Bitters Liqueur?)

Stir in the pitcher and enjoy on the rocks

I hope this works.

Vange
10-05-2006, 11:39
So, I obtained some Vya sweet vermouth and some bitters from Lenell.

4 parts Bulleit bourbon
1 part Vya sweet vermouth
5 dashes Fee's Old Fashioned bitters
Cherry on botttom of martini glass
Mix this with a bar spoon over ice and strained it out into my martini glass.

Came out great, EXCEPT I think I the bitters were a BIT too much. 1-2 dashes will be more than enough for the Fee's Old Fashioned for me next time.

It's a winner though!

rlovingjr
10-05-2006, 20:12
When I get back to the house this evening I am going to create my first manhattan at home. I have a friend of the family that makes them but they are too sweet for my taste. (think uses a splash of the cherry juice)

The recipe

3 parts Old Grand Dad 114
1 part Noilly Prat red vermouth
Dash of bitters - (has anyone tried the Fernet Branca Bitters Liqueur?)

Stir in the pitcher and enjoy on the rocks

I hope this works.

It worked like a charm - I am not sure what it is that brings out the rye in the OG 114 but I am really enjoying the rye notes in this manhattan.

cowdery
10-05-2006, 20:52
I think the bitters is a great complement for the rye. Since I have started to use bitters in manhattans, I also have tended to prefer straight rye or high rye bourbon as the whiskey.

rlovingjr
10-05-2006, 21:35
I think the bitters is a great complement for the rye. Since I have started to use bitters in manhattans, I also have tended to prefer straight rye or high rye bourbon as the whiskey.

Which ones, if you don't mind? http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/ear.gif

cowdery
10-06-2006, 12:55
Old Grand-Dad bottled in bond (high rye bourbon) and especially Rittenhouse Rye bottled in bond (straight rye).

jburlowski
10-08-2006, 14:49
It worked like a charm - I am not sure what it is that brings out the rye in the OG 114 but I am really enjoying the rye notes in this manhattan.

IMHO,OGD 114 is the perfect bourbon for Manhattans.

Longtrain
10-15-2006, 12:44
Except for drinking my bourbon straight or with a bit of spring water, the manhattan is a very enjoyable event.

My recipe:

Shaken, served straight up or on the rocks.

Quality bourbon, 3 parts
Noilly Prat red vermouth 1 part
2 dashs bitters
1 red cherry

I have tried other vermouths, IMO nothing holds a candle to Noilly, nothing.
Gotta go and make one now...

Tony
Longtrain

Gillman
10-15-2006, 13:19
I tend to agree with you about Nouilly, although some here favor some obscure, more expensive vermouths.

Then again I found Gallo red vermouth very nice for most purposes, but Nouilly seems tops in general.

I generally mix vermouths, currently I use one made from Nouilly, some Cinzano, some Martini and Rossi, some Dubonnet (all red) and some white Martini and Rossi. The Cinzano lends a nice cinammon-like edge but just a little is enough.

When you add this to, say, some well-blended bourbons and ryes (I use about 20 generally), maybe with a dash of absinthe, you get a really good Manhattan.

If it is too intense I toss in some vodka and that settles it down. I've tried Canadian whisky for this but it doesn't work, only a good vodka will do, but sometimes it isn't needed.

Gary

Edward_call_me_Ed
10-16-2006, 00:00
I have been experimenting with manhattans quite a bit of late, so much so that I will have to buy another bottle of Noilly Pratt Red before too long.

I am still using about a 5 to 1 ratio. I want the vermouth to be just a little more than detectable. Bitters are a must. I think I am using more bitters than most of you. One shake of Hermes Orange Bitters and then one shake of either Hermes Aromatic Bitters or Angostura Aromatic Bitters. Sometimes all three.

A shake means I turn the bottle upside down over the glass and let it drip, when it stops I give it on good shake straight up and down. I use a little less Angostura than Hermes Aromatic Bitters.

For whiskey, I mostly prefer Wild Turkey Rye. I sometimes add a good splash of Olde Saint Nick Winter Rye 101 9 years old. That is a very spicy rye. The one Manhattan that I made with just that was too strongly flavored. I may try it again with just vermouth and Orange Bitters.

For bourbon I have tried a variety. ETL made a sweet tasty Manhattan, maybe too sweet. An AAA 10 year old was better. Wild Turkey 101 8 was good as was a Rare Breed that I made last night.

I think someone mentioned making a cognac Manhattan on the thread so I tried that. I used a bottle of Camus that had had a cork fall apart in it. It wasn't corked, but it did effect the spirit, giving it a musty tannic note that was not unpleasant, but it was too strong. It was outstanding in the Manhattan! Even better with a little Blanton's Straight From the Barrel drizzled in. I didn't have much of the Blanton's left so I only got to have one small Manhattan with that. It was excellent. I might try a Blanton's Gold Manhattan tonight. Someone mentioned OGD 114 as the perfect bourbon for a Manhattan and I agree that it is truly excellent, but I think that Baker's is even better, at least to my tastes. I didn't really care for the Booker's Manhattan I made.

The Manhattan that really convinced me that I love these things will probably never be reproduced. I started by pouring 5 shots of Wild Turkey Rye and one of Noilly Red into a 200 ml bottle . I don't know how many shakes of Hermes Aromatic Bitters which was all I had at the time. This was to take to a party. It was really good. I drank about two shots of it at the party, make that half. The next day we were going camping. I didn't have anymore Wild Turkey, or so I thought, but then I found a little 50 ml bottle of it. Then I topped it up with Olde Saint Nick Winter Rye and a way we went. At the campsite my first Manhattan was poured over ice. The second straight up. Both were glorious. The third was poured from a bottle chilled by the cold night air, nectar. The next day poured from a sun warmed bottle it was about as good a drink as you can imagine.

Ed

barturtle
10-16-2006, 00:42
I have lately been using a 50-50 mix of Old Fitz BIB and Saz Jr to make my manhattens. Though I think I might be substitute Weller 107 for the Fitz soon, as I've always thought that to make a good manhatten you need some proof. Though I prefer Noilly, I'm currently using M&R as the store I went to last time doesn't carry Noilly.

I tend to vary up the bitters as suits my mood, while there always are 3-4 shakes, it may be Angostura or Gary's Orange or a mix or the two.

I recently procured a bottle of some Blood Orange bitters, that are non-alcoholic, and these are quite good, unfortunately they have no shaker so measurement with them has been problematic, but when I get it right (with a shake of Ango, too) they are amazing.

TnSquire
10-18-2006, 06:09
for reals, i was at a bar and they served "vodka-tonics" i was puzzled because, with a vodka and tonic, where would the flavor come from?whats the point? oh well, my college peers loved it.(girls)

Everyone in my office drinks either vodka tonics or vodka and soda. I have managed to woo a couple of the girls over to gingerale and bourbon.

Rughi
10-18-2006, 20:28
My wife will settle for no whiskey but rye in her Manhattan's. No rye is too good for her: Saz 18, my best bottle of VW 13-year, and Old Overholt from the '80s she likes really well. Saz Jr. and Rittenhouse BIB she just loves, and Wild Turkey rye she'll drink without too much complaint.

However, I never, ever can sneak a bourbon (even a high rye formula) past Maia without an outcry: not Old Forester BIB from either 414 nor 354, nor Old Grand dad from ND or Beam eras - and especially not a recent Grand Dad 114. It's rye for her, or she'll suggest I keep practicing with another round. Of course, she frequently requests another if it's to her liking as well...

We like Vya vermouth quite a bit (about 3:1 rye/vermouth), and a shake each of Fee's Angostura and Orange Bitters. For her, I drizzle in a bit of maraschino juice before shaking the bejesus out of the penguin.

Roger

Edward_call_me_Ed
10-18-2006, 21:36
My wife will settle for no whiskey but rye in her Manhattan's. No rye is too good for her: Saz 18, my best bottle of VW 13-year, and Old Overholt from the '80s she likes really well. Saz Jr. and Rittenhouse BIB she just loves, and Wild Turkey rye she'll drink without too much complaint.


Roger

I really like WT Rye in mine, but I haven't had any of the others. I am hoping I can get a few of these on my rapidly approaching trip.

Ed

tallmarc
10-25-2006, 12:54
My usual Manhattan is a Perfect Manhattan:

4 parts American straight rye whiskey
1 part sweet vermouth
1 part dry vermouth
1 dash Angostura bitters
I usually add a cherry; it's the "dessert."
This is basically a 2:1 ratio.

My everyday rye is Jim Beam. It's quite nice actually, and comes with a striking yellow label. I think I pay $12 a bottle, which is a phenomenal deal. I'm going to try one with my Sazerac 18 y/o soon.

Hardly any bars carry straight rye these days. At my wedding last month I insisted they offer it, so they dug out some bottles of Michters (sp?) that were in the store room. It was quite nice.

scratchline
10-30-2006, 18:15
Prepared an absolutely outstanding Manhattan tonight.

I'm one of those who has strayed off the Noilly path, but tonight I came home. Since I was using an 80 proof bourbon I went with 2 ounces of whiskey to 1/4+ oz Noilly Prat sweet vermouth. Then a healthy dash of Angostura and stir.

The bourbon was early 90's pre-Beam Old Taylor. I think this is a very good whiskey. And great in this mixed drink.

Garnish with 4 skewered Les Parisiennes brandied cherries.

Life is good.

-Mike

cowdery
10-30-2006, 21:48
How do you know the Old Taylor is pre-Beam? It probably started to be Beam whiskey in about 1993.

I got away from the Noilly path too. Need to get back. Next time, Noilly.

Recently I "learned" that drink garnishes should always be odd numbers, three cherries or five, but not four. Some kind of superstition. I don't have details.

scratchline
10-30-2006, 22:12
Never heard that about the cherries, but that might explain a few things. I'll waste no time bumping it up to five.

I think the whiskey is transitional since the bottle is bottom stamped '93 and the label is both Frankfort and Clermont. I'm thinking bottled by Beam, but maybe older stock that they acquired with the brand. I suppose it's possible that it's the first Beam-distilled Taylor, but I'd bet otherwise. I'll pull out an older 86 proof bottle that I have for comparison.

Regardless, this whiskey makes a very fine Manhattan when paired with the Noilly.

-Mike

barturtle
10-31-2006, 04:13
Recently I "learned" that drink garnishes should always be odd numbers, three cherries or five, but not four. Some kind of superstition. I don't have details.

This is true. Don't know the reason either, but I worker at a bar that got in such large olives that a skewer would only hold two and one old-timer would send his martinis back.

Personally I'm a twist person and that holds true whether it's a martini or manhatten. I don't like the extra salt and oil in my martini (gin, please) and the cherry in a manhatten just seems take it past my own sweetness point.

SingleBarrel
11-09-2006, 15:42
I like "Perfect" Manhattans, which as defined in most cocktail recipes involves both sweet and dry vermouth. Lately, I seem to be enjoying a Knob Creek Perfect Manhattan, with 5 parts bourbon, 1 part dry vermouth, a splash of sweet vermouth, a slightly larger splash of Southern Comfort (100 proof), and a couple of shakes of bitters. This is stirred in my shaker (not shaken, as I don't like it to come out cloudy, NOT because I believe in the "bruising" theory), and served straight up in a cocktail glass with a single stemmed cherry. About the only variation on the above is the type of bourbon (or rye) that I use. I never use the very best sipping bourbons (though I'm sure the Manhattan would be delicious!), just because I think something like Pappy 20 yr or Eagle Rare 17 yr is best enjoyed by itself. Anyway, I've just made myself thirsty enough to go in the bar and make one now!

Gillman
11-09-2006, 16:12
This sounds excellent.

Gary

wadewood
11-09-2006, 20:34
I had a Perfect Manhattan for the first time this past weekend. At one of my favorite bars in Seattle, ZigZag Cafe, and asked for a Manhattan. Bartender suggested a Perfect and made it with OGD 114. Very nice.

CrispyCritter
11-09-2006, 20:48
I'm going to have to try the Perfect variety sometime - or even a dry version (white vermouth only). Lately I've had more Red Hooks (http://www.cocktailchronicles.com/2005/11/18/red-hook/) than actual Manhattans... but they are quite tasty in their own right.

brian12069
11-15-2006, 17:31
I like "Perfect" Manhattans, which as defined in most cocktail recipes involves both sweet and dry vermouth. Lately, I seem to be enjoying a Knob Creek Perfect Manhattan, with 5 parts bourbon, 1 part dry vermouth, a splash of sweet vermouth, a slightly larger splash of Southern Comfort (100 proof), and a couple of shakes of bitters. This is stirred in my shaker (not shaken, as I don't like it to come out cloudy, NOT because I believe in the "bruising" theory), and served straight up in a cocktail glass with a single stemmed cherry. About the only variation on the above is the type of bourbon (or rye) that I use. I never use the very best sipping bourbons (though I'm sure the Manhattan would be delicious!), just because I think something like Pappy 20 yr or Eagle Rare 17 yr is best enjoyed by itself. Anyway, I've just made myself thirsty enough to go in the bar and make one now!

I remembered reading this a few nights ago and here is the Manhattan I just made that is fantastic. By the way....it is THE FIRST time I have ever tried dry vermouth in a manhattan.
Ok...In a good size rock glass that I filled with about 3/4 ice. Maybe 7 cubes? I poured in 2 shots of Sazerac Rye then I took a shot glass, filled it with 1/2 dry vermouth, the other 1/2 sweet vermouth. I poured that in. I then added maybe 3 or 4 shakes of bitters. I have to say, I didn't think I would like the dry vermouth in there but it REALLY enhanced the flavor.
I may try another!

JeffRenner
12-07-2006, 15:47
I have just had the best Manhattan I can recall having made. It was a Gilmanized base.

The proportions:

1 oz. Wild Turkey rye
1 oz. Old Forester 100 proof
3/4 oz. Boissiere sweet vermouth
2 dashes Angostura bitters

Made and served on the rocks (although I generally prefer them "up.")

I really enjoyed the spicy character from the rye. Very balanced proportions.

Cheers

Jeff

cowdery
12-10-2006, 00:58
There is something terribly sophisticated about making a whiskey cocktail with two different whiskeys.

brian12069
12-17-2006, 16:11
There is something terribly sophisticated about making a whiskey cocktail with two different whiskeys.


This is true. That is why I just made a Manhattan with 1oz of Woodford Reserve, 1oz of Old Rip Van Winkle 15 year 107, 1/2 oz Sweet Vermouth, 1/2 oz Dry Vermouth and a few dashes of bitters...on the rocks....many rocks... I love it...the Rip Van Winkle really enhances the flavor.

Jake_Parrott
12-17-2006, 18:14
I wish I had enough ORVW 15/107 to use it in any cocktail.

brian12069
12-17-2006, 18:33
I wish I had enough ORVW 15/107 to use it in any cocktail.


I even have one in reserve...

Jake_Parrott
12-17-2006, 19:58
That's not enough :).

SingleBarrel
02-23-2007, 17:21
Ok, just shifted from my comfort zone a bit (after reading many of the posts in this thread) and went for a regular (as opposed to Perfect) Manahattan, with OGD 114, Noilly Pratt Vermouth (3 to 1), and a couple dashes of Angostura Bitters. What a great way to say "good night"!
:cool:

Gillman
03-17-2007, 16:14
Once more, with feeling.

This is an odd kind of drink (maybe they all are), in that if it isn't "right", I can't drink it. If it is good though, it is very very good.

I've decided through trial and error that my ideal Manhattan needs to be composed of a combination of older and younger bourbons, some vodka and some Canadian whisky (apart from bitters, vermouth, cherry). I have tried it with bourbon on its own; bourbons blended; bourbon(s) and vodka; bourbon(s) and Canadian whisky; and the aforesaid blending of multiple bourbons, vodka and Canadian whisky. Only the latter ends up being to my taste.

I like too an orange vodka because the background of orange flavor adds a lot to the drink. But I can use 50/50 vodka and Cointreau or just Cointreau. The sweetness level can be adjusted through the amount of vermouth added. I find the kind of vermouth does not really matter, but it is important to add bitters, and more than a little.

The result is rich in flavor, whiskey flavour, but has a pleasing lightness from the non-bourbon liquors added, and also, a roundness and softness which facilitates neat or rocks drinking.

As to proportions, the bourbons should be about 2:1 to the other elements: a little heavier on the bourbon won't hurt. Oops, I forgot something important: an addition of straight rye helps to "make" the drink. So a little always goes in, usually Pikesville.

This cocktail is ideal for blending older and younger bourbons and straight ryes.

Gary

darkluna
03-17-2007, 16:33
I've decided through trial and error that my ideal Manhattan needs to be composed of a combination of older and younger bourbons, some vodka and some Canadian whisky (apart from bitters, vermouth, cherry).

I don't know what to call that (A "Gillman"?), but I'm loathe to call it a Manhattan. I'm not what I'd call a purist either -- I eschew the cherry in my manhattans

brian12069
03-17-2007, 17:49
Once more, with feeling.

This is an odd kind of drink (maybe they all are), in that if it isn't "right", I can't drink it. If it is good though, it is very very good.

I've decided through trial and error that my ideal Manhattan needs to be composed of a combination of older and younger bourbons, some vodka and some Canadian whisky (apart from bitters, vermouth, cherry). I have tried it with bourbon on its own; bourbons blended; bourbon(s) and vodka; bourbon(s) and Canadian whisky; and the aforesaid blending of multiple bourbons, vodka and Canadian whisky. Only the latter ends up being to my taste.

I like too an orange vodka because the background of orange flavor adds a lot to the drink. But I can use 50/50 vodka and Cointreau or just Cointreau. The sweetness level can be adjusted through the amount of vermouth added. I find the kind of vermouth does not really matter, but it is important to add bitters, and more than a little.

The result is rich in flavor, whiskey flavour, but has a pleasing lightness from the non-bourbon liquors added, and also, a roundness and softness which facilitates neat or rocks drinking.

As to proportions, the bourbons should be about 2:1 to the other elements: a little heavier on the bourbon won't hurt. Oops, I forgot something important: an addition of straight rye helps to "make" the drink. So a little always goes in, usually Pikesville.

This cocktail is ideal for blending older and younger bourbons and straight ryes.

Gary

That is a Frankinhattan...

CrispyCritter
03-17-2007, 17:54
I like too an orange vodka because the background of orange flavor adds a lot to the drink. But I can use 50/50 vodka and Cointreau or just Cointreau. The sweetness level can be adjusted through the amount of vermouth added. I find the kind of vermouth does not really matter, but it is important to add bitters, and more than a little.

I've done a similar thing using the Red Hook approach but using Cointreau or Triplum instead of maraschino (and of course, the Punt e Mes bittered red vermouth). Tasty! The Punt e Mes' bitter edge balances out the liqueur's sweetness very nicely.

I generally use a straight rye, unblended, though.

Gillman
03-17-2007, 18:58
No, no it's a Manhattan all right.

If a Manhattan can be made from only Canadian whisky, or Seagram 7, mine qualifies even more so.

Gary

bluesbassdad
03-18-2007, 12:40
I don't know what to call that (A "Gillman"?), [snip]

A Gillmanhattan, of course! :grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

TNbourbon
03-18-2007, 15:15
A Gillmanhattan, of course! :grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Been there already, Dave, more than two years ago:grin: :
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38327&postcount=93

Gillman
03-18-2007, 16:19
Boyz, you give me too much credit.

Take a Manhattan made with Seagram 7 or another American blended whiskey, or with a Canadian whisky. Not everyone's choice, perhaps, but a Manhattan it certainly is.

These liquors are a combination (more or less) of bourbon and/or straight rye; green whiskey; neutral spirits; and/or maybe aged GNS or whiskey. Also, there may be some kind of flavoring in them.

My Manhattan is neutral spirits (vodka); Canadian whisky (aged GNS and some low proof whisky); and twice as much real bourbon and rye: more than you'll get in that 7 Crown Manhattan.

The orange from my Charbay vodka, which added to the bitters I added makes essentially an orange bitters (traditional in the Manhattan), is just a light flavouring. As I said, American whiskey and some Canadian has this as part of its palate.

So my version ain't no frankendrank, it is simply the way you would make it if you used American blended or Canadian whisky. (It is a variation and should not partake of the suspicion attendant on blended whiskey because my drink is 2/3rds straight whiskey at least). 1000's of these are made in the bars of the land every day.

Now if you want a REAL invention, there is my 50/50 blended North American whiskies and Spanish/Canadian brandy combo. Now that has some claim to originality.

Oops, I just remembered that Samuel M'Harry in his 1809 whisky manual advises to add whiskey to brandy to increase the proof. And a bunch of 1800's punch recipes mix brandy and whisky.

I'll have to put my thinking cap on. Gin and beer? Nope, that's an old drink called purl. Gin and whiskey? Well, not if I use oude (original-style) Dutch gin, that is a kind of whiskey right there. London gin and bourbon? Now we're getting kind of icky. But not really, the gin's base is just GNS, so we're just lightening the bourbon taste a bit. We are adding juniper, angelica and citrus though to bourbon (from the dry gin), that's weird. Yeah but wait a minute. All those things are found in many kinds of vermouth - which is an essential part of a Manhattan. Not only that, vermouth has (I just remembered) young brandy in it. That brandy and whiskey thing is rearing its head again and all from the pages of the standard bar manuals. Grrr.

I can't be original no matter how hard I try and it would be wrong to accept compliments much as I appreciate (sincerely) the intent...

Gary

cowdery
03-19-2007, 12:59
From my experience, the manhattan can legitimately be made with bourbon, rye, American blended or Canadian whiskey. The preference tends to be regional, rye or an American blend in the northeast, Canadian whiskey in the midwest, bourbon in the south and west. All have their attractions. These days, I tend to prefer Rittenhouse Rye BIB.

bluesbassdad
03-19-2007, 18:50
Sometimes I wonder whether I've ever had an original thought.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

TNbourbon
03-19-2007, 18:54
Sometimes I wonder whether I've ever had an original thought.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Dave, I was thinking (wishfully) more in the 'great minds think alike' vein.:bowdown:

bluesbassdad
03-20-2007, 01:29
:grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

darkluna
03-20-2007, 10:15
All this talk of manhattans prompted me to make a batch last night. I usually use bourbon, but for these I used Rittenhouse BIB rye in about a 4:1 ratio with the vermouth and a dash of orange bitters. No cherry! Mmmmmgood.

Hey - what's the shelf-life of vermouth anyway?

cowdery
03-20-2007, 14:37
As a fortified wine, vermouth is intended to and pretty much will keep indefinitely.

doubleblank
05-07-2007, 19:00
Tonight I tried my hand at a Manhattan. I've had a few made at bars and wasn't a big fan of this cocktail. Since I have an ample supply of the Willett's rye, tonight I made a Manhattan with a 4:1 ratio of Willetts to Noily Pratt sweet red, a few healthy shakes of Angostura and a cherry in the bottom of the glass. Stirred over ice and drinking it neat. Wow....what a spice bomb. Its clean, spicy, sweet all at the same time....even reminds me of mincemeat pie. I thought I had too much Willetts......now I'm not sure I have enough. This is a standout drink.

Randy

TNbourbon
05-07-2007, 19:13
Sold me, Randy. Since I prefer straight rye in my Manhattans, anyway, that sounded very much worth a try (especially since I recently acquired a backup bottle of Willett -- thanks!), though I have Martini & Rossi vermouth in-house instead of Noilly Prat. Mine was shaken, not stirred ("Bond -- James Bond"). It is just as you describe -- spice on a sweet baseline, with a clean, balanced sense and finish.
Good call!

Gillman
05-08-2007, 03:18
Nice work gents. There is a reason for the fame of this cocktail and while I can understand that some people prefer to drink whiskey only neat, many appreciate a Manhattan made well. It does well with younger rye whiskey too, or a combination of ages.

Gary

TBoner
05-08-2007, 04:05
Agreed that a younger whiskey works very well. My recent efforts have been with Overholt, and I've been quite pleased (after using WT Rye - also a youngish whiskey - exclusively for a while).

I know 2:1 is the "classic" ratio for rye:vermouth, and I do enjoy a drink made that way, but my standard formula is 2.5 oz. rye, 3/4 oz. sweet vermouth, a couple (or even several) healthy dashes of orange and/or Angostura bitters, and no cherry.

However, I recently subbed in 1/4 oz. of homemade tangelo liqueur (sweet-tart and tending toward an orange character) for part of the vermouth and flamed an orange twist for the garnish. Outstanding. While this takes the drink outside of tradition, it does reflect the affinity of bourbon (or rye) for orange, and marries some of the traits of an old-fashioned to the Manhattan. Any good triple sec (Cointreau is great, since it's a bit on the dry side and not cloyingly sweet) would work beautifully.

Gillman
05-08-2007, 04:58
Well put and I'd add we can't dissociate orange completely from the Manhattan, even within the classic tradition. This is because, first, orange in various guises is a component of some red vermouths. Second, orange bitters is a classic type and has been used from the beginning evidently in any whiskey cocktail (including the Sazerac). So using orange bitters in a Manhattan introduces an orange element right there. Some early Manhattan recipes call for adding both vermouth and sugar syrup. While this makes for a decidedly sweet cocktail, it can be very good this way if both syrup and vermouth are reduced in proportion. E.g., in a 3:1 Manhattan, the one part vermouth can be half syrup, half vermouth, or half Cointreau and half vermouth and variations abound from there.

All these drinks are in fact variants and workings-out of a basic idea: combining spirits, a sweet element, a bitter element and (for those who want it) water or ice. Originally this was called a bittered sling, then a cocktail. An Old-Fashioned was originally an "Old-Fashioned Cocktail" or a bittered sling, and probably this came about when people, tired of increasingly elaborate cocktails, wanted to go back to the original idea.

While cocktails originally probably were a way to make young spirits palatable, as Randy has shown, the oldest spirits on the block can make a great cocktail too.

Gary

TBoner
05-08-2007, 14:56
Well put and I'd add we can't dissociate orange completely from the Manhattan, even within the classic tradition. This is because, first, orange in various guises is a component of some red vermouths. Second, orange bitters is a classic type and has been used from the beginning evidently in any whiskey cocktail (including the Sazerac). So using orange bitters in a Manhattan introduces an orange element right there. Some early Manhattan recipes call for adding both vermouth and sugar syrup. While this makes for a decidedly sweet cocktail, it can be very good this way if both syrup and vermouth are reduced in proportion. E.g., in a 3:1 Manhattan, the one part vermouth can be half syrup, half vermouth, or half Cointreau and half vermouth and variations abound from there.

All these drinks are in fact variants and workings-out of a basic idea: combining spirits, a sweet element, a bitter element and (for those who want it) water or ice. Originally this was called a bittered sling, then a cocktail. An Old-Fashioned was originally an "Old-Fashioned Cocktail" or a bittered sling, and probably this came about when people, tired of increasingly elaborate cocktails, wanted to go back to the original idea.

While cocktails originally probably were a way to make young spirits palatable, as Randy has shown, the oldest spirits on the block can make a great cocktail too.

Gary

Good points, especially regarding the orange in vermouth. Orange, of course, figures prominently in many aperitif bitters, notably Campari, which is basically a cross between bitters and vermouth. To that end, I have also recently enjoyed a Manhattan in which 1/4 oz. of Campari subbed for 1/4 oz. of sweet vermouth and for the bitters I'd normally add. Even at 1/4 oz., the orange and the bitterness were quite pronounced. Not a bad drink at all.

cowdery
05-12-2007, 16:29
My Aunt Joan, who introduced me to the manhattan (and who lives there as well), often makes them with Maker's Mark but historically made them with Seagrams Seven and it is a good use for blended whiskey. The flavors blend well and you get that sense of a sweet, full-bodied cocktail.

Gillman
05-12-2007, 20:39
On the Gazebo table at Sampler just passed was a 1950's-era bottle of Heublein "Brandy Manhattan". This shows that brandy and American whiskey have this odd, somewhat complementary if not at times symbiotic relationship. It probably goes back to earliest days and may support the idea the first Bourbon was a Cognac substitute. I meant to try the Heublein but just didn't get to it in the general tumult and excitement. I nosed it and the smell was of red vermouth and spirit, I am sure it was not so bad, did anyone try it? If so, what was its sweetness level?

Gary

TNbourbon
05-12-2007, 21:06
...Heublein "Brandy Manhattan"...I nosed it and the smell was of red vermouth and spirit, I am sure it was not so bad, did anyone try it? If so, what was its sweetness level?..

I believe, Gary, the general consensus of those I assayed it with was that it was not as bad as it smelled -- meaning, generally, I think, that the cloying sweetness of the nose was more subdued on the palate -- but, still, sweetness was its prime sensation. It was 'passable', I'd say, but not something to seek out more of.
Stu (of Arkansas fame) brought it, by the way, and generously added it to Friday's Whiskeys of the World table.

Gillman
05-13-2007, 06:58
Thanks Tim, recently I had a taste of a Manhattan made with Canadian whisky. I like Canadian whisky at its best but in a Manhattan the whisky taste tends to get lost and the vermouth sweetness seemed to predominate. This is why made with bourbon or straight rye it seems much better (to my taste). Made with a mild brandy, I would think the drink would taste closer to one made with Canadian whisky. I would think the brandy used in the Heublein version was probably mild, American-made brandy (the light, sweetish, fruity type which is still very popular). But what I said (sorry!) notwithstanding, I think the appearance in the market in the 1950's of a brandy Manhattan shows the old connection between brandy and aged whiskey. It is the same kind of thing as noting old recipes for Sazerac which advise brandy for the spirit, or a combination of brandy and whiskey.

Gary

sysrick
05-14-2007, 13:34
David Wondrich has a brief article about the Manhattan in Esquire with the following recipe:


http://www.esquire.com/features/food-drink/Manhattan0507


The Manhattan (Properly)

Stir for 15 seconds with lots of ice:
2 ounces 100-proof rye or bourbon (We like Wild Turkey.)
1 ounce red vermouth
2 dashes Angostura bitters

SBOmarc
05-14-2007, 14:05
Tried a 4:1 ratio of Rittenhouse BIB, to Noilly Prat Sweet vermouth with 2 dashes of aromatic bitters and one dash of blood orange bitters. It was served up and well chilled martini glass, one thin slice of blood orange and a cherry. Actually had to make another for my wife. No one was more surprised about it than she was!

Gillman
05-14-2007, 15:01
That sounds really good, so does the Wondrich one, though. The higher ratio of vermouth in his version will suit the drink on some occasions, but your addition of orange bitters is an inspired touch and one I use a lot. (If no orange bitters is available use regular bitters and add a dash of Grand Marnier or Triple Sec - the orange therein combines with the regular bitters to form something very like orange bitters).

Gary

Gillman
05-21-2007, 16:36
I have found that adding vodka to mixed straight whiskeys really picks them up and allows too the vermouth to come through without adding too much.

Say, 70% mixed straights (mix younger and older whiskeys), 30% vodka, and then about 25% of the total in vermouth, with some bitters.

Somehow, the neutral spirit brings flavors that may be discordant into a better relation. 30% is about the highest I'd use and really, water would do as well, one is just maintaining proof (more or less) by using an alcoholised diluent.

Gary

JeffRenner
05-23-2007, 15:52
David Wondrich has a brief article about the Manhattan in Esquire with the following recipe:


http://www.esquire.com/features/food-drink/Manhattan0507


The Manhattan (Properly)

Stir for 15 seconds with lots of ice:
2 ounces 100-proof rye or bourbon (We like Wild Turkey.)
1 ounce red vermouth
2 dashes Angostura bitters

This is just about exactly the first Manhattan recipe that I made, following Gary and Mardee Regan's suggestion in their big bourbon book of about ten years or so ago. I think that a 2:1 ratio works perfectly with a 100 or so proof bourbon or rye. I find that if I specify this at a restaurant rather than just ordering a Manhattan, I usually do pretty well, especially if I specify WT 101, which is pretty universally available.

As I posted earlier, in this thread, I think, the best Manhattan recipe I've come up with is 1:1:1 WT 101 bourbon: WT rye: good sweet vermouth (NOT Gallo), plus a couple-three dashes of bitters.

I'm jiggy with Angostura. Orange bitters (Regan's) leave me unmoved. (And I made my own years ago from the Regans' recipe.) But a dash or three of Grand Marnier adds to the complexity nicely.

This evening's heat led to our first gin & tonic, but a Manhattan sounds great!

Cheers.

Jeff

cowdery
05-23-2007, 17:33
I've been drinking Manhattans more often recently and contrary to what the pros say, I like them shaken, not stirred. Mostly it's because I like to use the shaker. While I love them made with bourbon (VOB BIB and OGD BIB are two favorites) and rye (Rittenhouse BIB), they are surprisingly good with humble old Seagram's Seven which, as you might imagine, tends to highlight the vermouth a little more.

I'm about a 3:1 guy, 2 or 3 dashes of bitters, maybe more, and when I have them a maraschino cherry with just a little of the juice. Being the urban swinger that I am, I always have a martini/manhattan glass chilling in the freezer. (Actually, I suppose if I really was an urban swinger, I'd always have two.)

Gillman
09-08-2007, 19:18
I make mine about the same way (same proportions, sometimes a little more vermouth goes in). I find a Manhattan is a funny thing, it can be made quite tolerably but if you add a little more bitters, or a little more vermouth, or a little more whiskey, it becomes perfect.

I've been trying to duplicate the balance and depth in a Manhattan served at Bourbons Bistro in Louisville that was made with the Woodford Reserve bottled for the house (apparently from a single barrel, therefore probably all-pot still).

I have come very close. I use though blends of bourbon and straight rye as my base (almost always now). You need that anyway to approximate the complexity of an all- pot still bourbon - unless you happen to have some!

I have an idea now that the Manhattan may be of Italian-American origin in New York City.

In the recent "American Food Writing", an anthology of writings on food edited by Molly O'Neill, published by The Library of America, there is an article about a successful Italian restaurant in New York in the early 20th century. The era covered starts before World War I and it appears the restaurnt began before 1900.

The writer was the long-lived Maria Sermolino (1895-1991). The piece is from her 1950's book of reminiscences, "Papa's Table d'Hote", and recalls with fine detail and charm the kind of cooking offered in an Italian restaurant around 1900.

The author writes (and the food sounds absolutely luscious) that the bar was a great profit center: "The bar was the gold mine. A forty-gallon barrel of good bar whisky from Park & Tilford cost about 50 dollars, and, at 15 cents for a three ounce drink [ahem], straight, returned about $250. Mixed with Italian vermouth, imported by the barrel, it made a superb Manhattan cocktail, which, including the maraschino cherry cost about three cents a drink (more or less, depending on how much melted ice was included), and sold for 15 cents, or two for a quarter".

Now I was thinking, of course a primo Italian restaurant in New York circa-1900 would carry vermouth because the (originally at any rate) ethnic clientele would demand it. So popular was it evidently, it was brought in by the barrel, this wasn't a drink people occasionally ordered from a dusty bottle.

Vermouth is an old-established Italian fortified wine, it wasn't Anglo-Saxon then.

Maybe the idea formed in the Manhattan Italian restaurants and bars to mix blended whisky with vermouth. Why? Well, the habit may just have formed. Maybe in parts of Italy they had mixed vermouth with brandy - I should check this. But note that the author was careful to say the vermouth was mixed with Park & Tilford - a blended whiskey.

Surely a good restaurant or bar would have also sold more expensive straight bourbons or ryes, but I suspect they weren't mixed (then) with vermouth. Old bourbon and rye (some of it) practically tastes herbal and winy - like vermouth, kind of, you didn't need to add the wine to it.

But people might have added vermouth to blended whiskey to approximate a better whiskey: a good blended whisky still goes great with vermouth (as Chuck noted). We should remember too that a lot of straight whiskey then was taken with sugar and sometimes herbs: Jack Daniel (the original distiller) used sugar and tansy herb, for example. People may have been looking for ways to make blend whiskey taste like that: well, vermouth has sugar in it (red vermouth does), and it has herbs...

This suggested specific rationale for the cocktail, for its origin, seems unexceptional. But what I am focusing on is the vermouth: who had it? The Italian restaurants evidently.

I know Jerry Thomas' second edition of his famed cocktails manual has a recipe for the Manhattan (I think this was in the 1870's), but again where would vermouth have been available in New York between the time of his first edition, which does not contain a recipe for the Manhattan, and the second edition? I would think Italian bars and retaurants existed in NYC by the 1860's.

True, the Manhattan always had rye whiskey associations, but they may have started with blends in which the straight element was rye whisky. But again, who would have had the vermouth, and in the quantity for such a thing to take off? Not surely (originally) Irish-American bars (then very popular in Manhattan - hey they still are). And why would a private club keep supplies of vermouth at the bar in the later 1800's? I am referring to the theory that the drink was invented at the Manhattan Club in New York which doesn't mean it may not have been popularised there - after being invented downtown in Little Italy.

Gary

CrispyCritter
09-08-2007, 20:20
Maybe the idea formed in the Manhattan Italian restaurants and bars to mix blended whisky with vermouth. Why? Well, the habit may just have formed. Maybe in parts of Italy they had mixed vermouth with brandy - I should check this.

One other data point regarding brandy with vermouth - if you order a Manhattan in Wisconsin, it will likely be made with brandy unless you specify otherwise. However, in Wisconsin brandy is used in a variety of other cocktails as well (like Old Fashioneds).

Gillman
09-09-2007, 14:46
Well, brandy would go well in it: there is already some brandy in vermouth I believe (or a spirit of some kind derived from grapes).

By the way it is true Jerry Thomas's recipe in his first edition, for the Martinez (ancestor to the Martini although this is controversial), calls for sweet vermouth - and Jerry Thomas was from San Francisco.

But, and I think it is a big but, San Francisco had an Italian population very early on, also Croatian and other populations not far from the Italian regions. I wonder if these groups did not inspire the Martinez, essentially.

Who else would have imported vermouth by the barrel, I wonder? True, wines from Latin Europe were popular even in Colonial times such as Madeira, Malaga, Port, Sherry: but not vermouth as far as I know, I think we first hear of it after the immigrations started from Southern Europe.

Gary