Trying to spend my holiday bonus

[Chris]

OK Guys....I have read all the threads,know (most) of your preferences pretty well, so I am asking advice from my Straightbourbon.com expert bourbon pals. I got my pathetically small Christmas bonus today. After I lamented how much it sucks being a Catholic school teacher, I decided that I deserved a prize from the bourbon aisle. I haven't bought a couple of the well known products, so I decided to go with Booker's or Rare Breed. I have had Booker's and remember it being awesome...I started bourbon drinking with Wild Turkey and Knob Creek. (Not counting the Jack Daniels from the flask during LSU games). So I guess I want some input. You just got 65 bucks for teaching punk 14 yr. old boys, what do you go with...Booker's or Rare Breed?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Given those two choices I'd say Rare Breed. Have you access to Wild Turkey's new small batcher Russell's Reserve? If you do I like that much better than Rare Breed, and you can but two bottles for your $65 and have $10 leftover. If you haven't had Wild Turkey's Kentucky Spirit and you want to blow $50 on one bottle *this* is the one! Russell's Reserve is very very close to Kentucy Spirit and half the price. A great bourbon bargin!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[cowdery]

Given that choice, I probably would pick Rare Breed, but I haven't had any Booker's in awhile. Nice thing is, you win either way.

--Chuck Cowdery (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com)

[Chris]

Kentucky Spirit is about 42 bucks. I haven't found Russell's Reserve anywhere yet. You recommend KY Spirit over the Rare Breed?

[MashBill]

I agree with Linn on this one. In fact, I'd rate them: Kentucky Spirit, Russell's Reserve, Rare Breed in that order. These are all fine bourbons, you can't go wrong with any of them.

Another thought. For $65 you should be able to buy two "rare birds"..... Rare Breed and Eagle Rare.

Ahhh, so many bourbons, so little time (and money).

Bill

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Look at it this way, Chris...
About midway through the year you're gonna buy another bottle anyway. And it'll be budget money then, not Christmas bonus money, so it would be even harder to justify. Buy the Booker's and think of it as a well-deserved gift to yourself.

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes I Do Chris! It's such great tasting bourbon. Rare Breed is good but it's just a barrel proof bottling of the regular six year old. Admittedly the barrels are specially selected. Kentucky Spirit is the usual 101 (Turkey) proof & each barrel is selected by Jimmy Russell himself. He's very good at it.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[kitzg]

Chris, (1) teaching at a major university I don't get a holiday bonus so it all sounded good to me (2) Yau may have made your purchase by the time I post this but... given your statements I'd buy Rare Breed over Bookers only because Bookers is purposely inconsistent (proof varies, etc.) and Rare Breed is a sure thing. As Chuck says neither would be a mistake. Inconsistent is still "consistently interesting" but you asked for opinions and a forced choice so that's mine. Wish I was coming to LA for Christmas as I'd bring you a bottle of Ky Spirit which is on sale here for $26. I agree with Linn on Spirit over Breed.

Man would I like to be in New Orleans next week. ...Walk through the Lobby of the Fairmont Hotel, grab a bourbon in front of the fireplace at the Absynthe on Bourbon Street.... oh, well.

Happy Holidays!!!

Greg

[RyanStotz]

Linn:

> Rare Breed is good but it's just a barrel proof bottling of the regular six
> year old.

I was under the impression that the Rare Breed is a blend of different ages of WT from six to twelve years old. Too much wood on the Rare Breed for it not to include at least a little older stock.

Might as well shoot off my mouth about my opinions on Rare Breed vs. Booker's while I'm at it. Personally, I'd take Rare Breed if you're only going to have a couple bottles around the house at a time. It's a fantastic all-around bourbon for any occasion, whereas I have to be in a certain mood for Booker's, great as it is.

As for the WT bourbon rankings, I'd put Rare Breed and the Russell's Reserve tied for first, with Kentucky Spirit and the 12 YO tied for second. I've been really let down on a couple of the Kentucky Spirit bottlings which came out really thin and even slightly tannic. It can be quite good depending on the barrel chosen, but I've never had a bottling as good as a Rare Breed, and I've drank my way to the bottom of a lot of Kentucky Spirit bottles. IME, Kentucky Spirit doesn't offer proper value for money as often as it should. The 12 YO can be too woody for certain moods, but at times it really hits the spot as no other bourbon can.

Finally, if I were going to spend $65 on bourbon, I'd forget all of the above and grab a Hirsch 16 YO, no question about it.

Stotz

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That's what I was told at the distillery Ryan. The additional oak is more a function of the higher proof. Would WT tweek the flavor profile with a barrel or two of older stock? That's likely, but the the vast majority of the bourbon in that bottle is six years old.

While I've noted some variance in Kentucky Spirit bottlings I've never had a bad bottle. As I've pointed out before our bourbon is far more consistant than are we humans. Can you be sure that it wasn't you who was feeling thin and tannic that day? I've never had any bottle of Wild Turkey that wasn't big & bold.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[RyanStotz]

Linn:

> That's what I was told at the distillery Ryan. The additional oak is more a
> function of the higher proof.

How would the oakiness be a by-product of higher proof? In my experience, I've not found proof and oakiness to be directly proportional, but then again maybe I need more experience.

> Would WT tweek the flavor profile with a barrel or two of older stock? That's
> likely, but the the vast majority of the bourbon in that bottle is six years
> old.

I have no problem believing Rare Breed is mainly six to eight years old, but I have it on pretty good authority that there's a healthy dose (something on the order of 20 - 25%) of older bourbon in there.

> While I've noted some variance in Kentucky Spirit bottlings I've never had a
> bad bottle. As I've pointed out before our bourbon is far more consistant
> than are we humans.

To be sure. While I wouldn't classify some of my lesser KS bottlings as bad, they were clearly of far inferior quality relative to other bottles.

> Can you be sure that it wasn't you who was feeling thin and tannic that day?

Well I always feel thin, but a little baking soda got my tannic problem under control. I have a few different open bottles of KS at any given time (no, I didn't win the lottery, but when one finds KS on sale for $25.00 per bottle, one tends to take leave of one's senses with regards to how much bourbon he really needs), and the differences in taste and quality are consistent over time.

Then again, I'm the one who loves Rebel Yell, W.L. Weller Reserve, Weller Centennial and 19 YO Weller, but won't touch Weller Antique with a ten foot pole. Of course given that I'm only a 5'10" Pole (Grandma's name was Malinowski -- uh, her surname, that is) I'll occasionally have a drop to see if my palate's changed. Taste is funny thing.

Stotz

[bourbonmed]

Chris, I'd get Booker's, especially if it's on sale, say around $38. Bookers is so concentrated, one shot goes a long, long way. It's like getting nearly two bottles in one. I always add a little water and ice to release the flavor hidden behind the 125 + proof. Once you tone down the heat, Bookers is IMO, every bit as delicious as the WT.

Ryan, I got the 19-year-old Weller on order, hoping it's as good or better than the Centennial. I plan to uncork it after the holidays. What do you think of it? Is it too woody?

Omar

[Ken Weber]

Got to get my two cents worth in. If you want a rare bird, why not consider Eagle Rare 17 year old? It is available in New Orleans and costs less than $40 a bottle.

Ken

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ryan,

My authority is Jimmy Russell himself. Who's yours?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I had some 19 YO Weller at D Marie's tonight. It is woodier than the 10 YO but not unpleasantly so. I still prefer the Centennial.
Mike Veach

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I had some of the Eagle Rare at the BARD Society meeting tonight. It is excellent!!! I think it is as good or better than the 19 YO Weller and I am a Weller fan.
Mike Veach

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Mike does this mean that Eagle Rare is a wheater?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Linn,
This is not a wheated bourbon but it does have a lot of sweetness from the corn that balances out the woodiness that comes from age. I liked it and was quite impressed. This is some of Elmer T. Lee's finest work.
Mike Veach

[RyanStotz]

Linn:

> My authority is Jimmy Russell himself.

That's a pretty good authority.

> Who's yours?

An acquaintance who worked with the brand at Austin Nichols. Frankly, I doubt either of them would own up to the true percentage as it's likely considered something of a trade secret. In the end, the fact that it's a damn good bourbon is all that matters.

Stotz

[RyanStotz]

Omar:

> Ryan, I got the 19-year-old Weller on order, hoping it's as good or better
> than the Centennial. I plan to uncork it after the holidays. What do you
> think of it? Is it too woody?

Finally just got it myself, but my limited experience with it tells me no, it's not too woody. That formula seems to handle wood extremely well. It's as good as the Centennial, but better is a tough call. It's very different. The Centennial and the other expressions of that formula, to me, have a distinctive tobacco/wine taste to them that I don't get out of the 19 YO. The 19 YO tastes of rich dried fruit and spice; in fact, if I'd tasted it blind I'd have guessed it was a rye formula. I've only had a couple pours, though, so my taste may change. My high opinion of it, however, won't.

Stotz

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Agreed! It's far more important to drink & enjoy the bourbon than to nit pick.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Righteous!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Same stuff as Pappy 20?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Pretty close but I think the Pappy 20 is better. I always said Julian has the knack for picking barrels that age well.
Mike Veach

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Mike said, "... This is some of Elmer T. Lee's finest work"

Welllllll... maybe; maybe not. &nsp; According to Chuck, Sazerac bought the Eagle Rare brand in 1989, which would have been about seven years after that bourbon was made. I think it may have been Ova Haney's finest work :-))

On the other hand, when I mentioned that to Linda she said, "..Unless the only thing Sazerac bought was the label? If that were so, then I suppose they could put any 17-year-old Ancient Age bourbon they wanted in the bottle. So maybe it is Elmer's."

Okay Ken, help us solve this mystery. Just where did that beautiful-tasting whiskey in the Eagle Rare 17 bottle come from?

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[**DONOTDELETE**]

John,
I would be willing to bet money that this bourbon was made at Ancient Age. It has too many of the same taste characteristics as Ancient Ancient Age. I think it is Elmer T. Lee's whiskey and it is a damned fine whiskey!!!

Linda is the voice of reason here and you should listen to her. Of course all the bought was the label because Seagrams has too many blended products that they can put their whiskey in to sell it off.
Mike Veach

[Ken Weber]

Interesting question! Now let's see if I can answer without having some corporate lawyer evict me from my house and driving my car. Actually, the answer is quite fascinating. But first of all, my hat is off to Linda, a very discerning lady!
The Buffalo Trace Distillery has long produced, aged, and bottled bourbon for other companies. This is no great secret. When I was with BF, the Early Times Distillery made much of the whiskey for Max after his stillhouse burned. The Eagle Rare is a perfect example. This bourbon was made both here and by the folks at UDV, according to the same recipe. We were just noting that the other day we purchased some stocks from them; the same ones that we sold to them a few years ago. The bottom line is that we generally have a hand in producing our different bourbon brands. Nothing under 10-12 years of age ever comes from anyplace other than Buffalo Trace. Some of the older whiskies are ours and some were owned by other companies. We just bought some wheated bourbon from UDV. The interesting thing was that we made the bourbon, aged it, and simply removed it from our warehouses and rolled the barrels to regauge. So, while we used bourbon that we produced, we did not own it until a few months ago. If our president is to be believed (Mark Brown), we have the largest collection of aged bourbon (15 plus years) in the world.
Just for the record. When Malt Advocate first rated the Eagle Rare 17, Sazerac Rye 18, and Weller 19, they gave the Eagle Rare the lowest score (93), however, since then it has received the highest. Wine Enthusiast and Paul Pacult have both given it high marks (96 and 5 stars). Internationally, the Eagle Rare sells more than the other two combined.
Finally, Eagle Rare does in fact use rye as the short grain in the recipe, no wheat.

Ken

[RyanStotz]

Veach:

> Pretty close but I think the Pappy 20 is better.

Agreed. The Weller 19 YO is awfully good, and the more I drink it the more I like it, but the edge goes to the old school Pappy 20. Enough of an edge to make it worth more than twice the Weller 19 YO. Nope. Does that stop me from buying both? Nope. Can I afford both? Nope.

Stotz

[boone]

Chris

With all this advice from our expert tasters what bourbon product did you buy?

boone

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks, Ken. And thanks-plus for making yourself a source of candid answers for our insatiable curiosities. It's so refreshing to be able to "talk" with someone at a decision-making level who shares our fascination with the product, its makers, and its history. And one who isn't terrified to answer questions about them! If there were more like you throughout the industry, it would be easier for Mike to write the book we all want him to :-))

You mentioned that Eagle Rare was made by BT and jointly by UDV. Does that mean that Seagram's themselves never actually made the whiskey but purchased it on contract? As I understand it, that's the way Wild Turkey was made until the '70s when Austin Nichols finally purchased their major supplier, the Ripy Bros. distillery. But Seagram's already owned distilleries -- was (is) it more economical to purchase and bottle than to produce sometimes? Also, I may not care to describe flavor details, but I can certainly distinguish them; there's a marked similarity between the current 10-year-old Eagle Rare and the 17-year-old. I believe it's not (as Linda suggested it COULD be) just any old bourbon that BT found lying around the warehouse. Is there a formula specific to Eagle Rare that makes it different? And if most of what distinguishes one bourbon from the next occurs AFTER the company's standard formula is distilled, at just what point does Buffalo Trace bourbon actually become Buffalo Trace, or Hancock Reserve, or Eagle Rare, or Kentucky Rain, etc. I know that barrels of what will become Blanton's are selected early in the aging process and moved to a particular area of warehouse H, and Buffalo Trace itself is also warehouse-specific, but that whole process is fascinating to me. When you buy Eagle Rare or Old Charter from another distillery, is it really Eagle Rare or Old Charter yet? Is 2010's Eagle Rare being made today, or is something that's ten years old and fits the flavor profile bottled as Eagle Rare every year?

By the way, I had to laugh over how your modesty comes through even while bragging. I'm glad to know Malt Advocate has increased its opinion of Eagle Rare 17, but I sure wouldn't have been exactly embarassed if my whiskey earned a 93! You mentioned that Eagle Rare outsells the other two combined worldwide; isn't that a function of availability? I thought there were only a couple hundred cases of the rye in existance. Aren't they all gone yet? That goes back to a question I asked earlier... is there currently 17 year old rye, and 16, and 15, etc. so as to make the Sazerac Rye 18 year old brand continuous even though the original couple hundred barrels are long gone? When was the newest batch of rye produced?


=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Ken Weber]

I have done some background investigation and can report the following. Eagle Rare 17 is our proprietary mash bill Rye-1, made at Leestown (Buffalo Trace) in 1981. Elmer is curently looking over my shoulder to make sure I tell it straight! This recipe, combined with special aging considerations leads to Eagle Rare.
You are correct in that most (perhaps much) of the character of bourbon is determined after it is distilled and put in the barrel. Buffalo Trace is somewhat unique in that we have five different mash recipes. So in our case, it would not be correct to assume that aging is the primary factor, though it remains right up there. I should also note that Blanton's barrels are not selected early in the aging process (per se). We know that barrels placed in special areas of particular warehouses tend to produce superior bourbon, however, that bourbon may become Hancock's, Rock Hill, Blanton's, Eagle Rare, or Buffalo Trace. It depends upon the recommendation of our taste panel. The three primary panelists are Elmer, Gary, and Harlen Wheatley. Over the next several years, you will hear more and more about Harlen. Both Elmer and Gary have told me that his talents are simply unbelievable. It looks like in the next 5-10 years, he will become our new Master Distiller. Anyway, they decide which barrels will be bottled under which label. It is important to note that they reject far more barrels than they accept. It is also important to note that many of our single barrels have no age statement. Just because a bourbon is nine years doesn't mean squat! It could be green or overly woody. Only by repeatedly tasting the same barrels can it be judged correctly.
I can't answer your question about Seagram's actual production, because I don't know the answer. Elmer just said that Schenley (Buffalo Trace) often produced long on inventory. In the 60s and 70s, a gentleman named David Gordon made production decisions based on estimated usage 7-8 years down the road. He often padded these numbers, knowing that he could sell the excess bulk whiskey on the open market. Wild Turkey and Heaven Hill were frequent customers. One of the reasons we bought the distillery was because of the aged stock residing here.
I know I am rambling, but I am on a roll. We have inventory for our 17,18, and 19 year whiskies, however, they will be thin for the next 5 years. After that, it should begin to catch up. Finally, you ask about purchasing Charter (the label) and the bourbon to make it- how do we determine if it is Charter yet? The reality is that part of the purchase agreement usually includes a few years inventory of barrels. In truth, we often made the bourbon in the first place.

Ken

[Chris]

Heehee..Actually, I got both! My sister surprised me with a bottle of Rare Breed, and I got a bottle of Booker's from my Dad. So, I used my bonus on my second love...and bought a bunch of jazz and blues CDs.
Thanks guys-your input was valuable.
Chris

[kitzg]

Great, Chris! "Free bourbon" as gifts and a chance to use your bonus on some music to set the mood while drinking it! Lucky man, you are!

If you wish, post your comments on both bourbons. I believe they are both very nice but also different. Of course, Bookers is never the same (range in proof at the least). I must suggest the Ky. Spirit to you for some future purchase. I'm trying to "save" the bulk of my bottle but it is difficult to resist the temptation. It certainly tasted good last night.

Greg

[**DONOTDELETE**]

*>+=** YOU LUCKY DOG! **=+>*

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Okay all you distillers, brand managers, and such from the other distilleries who're lurking out there. Here's yet another example of why you should participate like Ken does. Besides helping to fill in some historical gaps and give a better picture of what goes on in this industry, Ken has managed to revive my interest in a brand I had pretty much written off.

Ken, I think the bottle of Benchmark that I have may be from the Heaven Hill period. It wouldn't win a Best-in-Show medal if it were the only brand entered. Not even in England, where (let's face it) things like persimmon wine and malmsy and even (choke) SCOTCH for heavens sake, sometimes take prizes!

Seriously, though, it's a bottle that will likely never be emptied, so there's been no incentive to replace it. Until now, that is. You can bet our next foray to the land of the Party Source will result in a brand new bottle of Benchmark! By the way, does the changeover to Buffalo Trace product correspond with the "McAfee's" now on the label? Ours doesn't have that, although we have a nice Old Fashioned glass with the Seagram's Benchmark label printed on it. We also have a bottle of Benchmark Single Barrel, and that's much better-tasting.

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Ken Weber]

Buffalo Trace is big on history. The site of the distillery happens to be the first settlement of the Frankfort area. A surveyor named McAfee laid out the first site and he placed an "offering" to the country into a "small, fresh flowing stream, (some arrowheads and a surveyor's benchmark). The name was significant and we highlighted McAfee to sort of stamp our brand on the brand, so to speak.
I must admit that the Single Barrel is the better product, but at the current price and positioning, sales of Benchmark have grown by about 60%.

Ken

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually, I can hardly wait to try a new bottle of Benchmark. In fact, I may just fight rush-hour traffic and go tonight... nah -- nothing's worth crawling through Covington/Erlanger/Florence at 5:30. But Saturday for sure!

...A surveyor named McAfee laid out the first site and he placed an "offering" to the country into a "small, fresh flowing stream, (some arrowheads and a surveyor's benchmark)..."

Well I can sure understand that. In fact, I've occasionally placed some "offerings" into "small, fresh flowing" streams at times myself, although I sure do hope the new Benchmark I'm about to purchase reminds me less of them than the one I've tried did :-))

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Chris]

Greg,
I have in the past been wishy washy on sharing my own tasting notes. But, I would climb the rooftops of the French Quarter to shout to all of the world how absolutely amazing my bottle of Booker's tastes! Hell, for Linn,I may even do it with my pants off! I have been on such a Booker's kick since I got the bottle that I have not even sampled the Rare Breed yet. All of the usual things are there...the "caramel", the "Oakiness"...the "bigness". It reminds me of a young California Zin in its bigness. The one thing that I was pleasantly surprised about was how smooth it was...even with the barrel proof. In summary, I am enjoying it.
Chris