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BrbnBorderline
07-06-2005, 13:53
I was hoping we could have a cumulative thread on which bourbons are going to be discontinued. Maybe a moderator could stick this to the top of the forum?

So far, I've gathered that WT Russell's Reserve 101 will be discontinued in favor of a 90 Pr. version. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

Also, did I read correctly that Eagle Rare 101 is going to be discontinued? http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/Demonstration.gif

Any other casualties I need to know about?

TIA.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

bluesbassdad
07-06-2005, 14:40
BBL,

What's news to me may not be news to you, or maybe I just sulk longer upon hearing it.

Anyway, I still haven't come to terms with the disappearance of Old Rip Van Winkle 15 y/o, 107 proof. Thanks to Dane I've had the opportunity to try its replacement, which is labled as Pappy Van Winkle (same age and proof). IMO, the PVW bottling bears little resemblance to the ORVW. I can imagine that some folks may like the new bottling as well as the old one, perhaps even better. I don't.

I appreciate the fact that Julian chose to package the new bottling in a different style bottle and under a different name than its predecessor. The new bottling should be judged on its own merits.

In regard to ER 101, Ken Weber has confirmed recently (http://www.straightbourbon.comhttp://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=General&Number=44702& Searchpage=1&Main=44614&Words=%2Bken+%2B%26quot%3B eagle+rare%26quot%3B&topic=&Search=true#Post44702) that it will be discontinued.

BTW if you happen to live in one of the 10 states that Lukas Liquor Superstore (http://www.lukasliquor.com/main.htm) will ship to, you can still order ORVW 15/107 from them, according to their jumbled website. (For instance, the aforementioned bottling is inexplicably listed in the "Blended Whiskey" category. Even more bizarre, two of the Pappy bottlings are in "Scotch Whiskey" -- complete with the extra letter "e".)

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

camduncan
07-06-2005, 15:33
I thought I read somewhere that the Duty Free Wild Turkey Freedom bottling is no longer being made?

angelshare
07-06-2005, 21:58
I was hoping we could have a cumulative thread on which bourbons are going to be discontinued. Maybe a moderator could stick this to the top of the forum?



This is a great idea...a resource for making sure you get a chance to grab something up before it's too late! In VA (and probably other control states) it's not like you can trust the store managers to give you any idea of what's endangered. It just disappears one day.

bourbonmed
07-07-2005, 11:08
Camduncan,

The Duty Free Freedom is being replaced by a single barrel later this year.
Wild Turkey Heritage, 101 proof. Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Omar

musher
07-07-2005, 21:25
How would that differ from Kentucky Spirit?

bourbonmed
07-08-2005, 13:09
Mike,

The packaging for this duty free product is different from the outgoing Freedom. I understand the bottle shape is similar to the WT 17 in Japan -- minus the engraved metal bottom. Don't know how long 'Heritage' is aged, but it'll cost around $45, plus a flight overseas.

Omar

camduncan
07-08-2005, 14:35
Omar,

Any idea of the release date?
It's just my Fiance & I travel 3 or 4 times a year (she's a travel agent) and I'd like to pick some up when it hits the (Duty Free) shelves.
Also, do you know if it'll be a DFS exclusive again?

cheers,

Cameron

TMH
07-08-2005, 18:09
Camduncan,

The Duty Free Freedom is being replaced by a single barrel later this year.
Wild Turkey Heritage, 101 proof. Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Omar



Hmmm...101 proof...could it be 10 YEARS OLD by any chance??!!! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/hot.gif

musher
07-09-2005, 08:57
I was mostly wondering since KY Spirit is a 101 proof single barrel (no age specified) and this new duty-free bottling is a 101 proof single barrel (no age specified), so it sounds like the contents would be the same.

Doesn't Freedom use similar bottles to the domestic Tribute (with a different cork), which is also the bottle for the new 90 proof Russel's Reserve?

bourbonmed
07-11-2005, 09:36
September launch. I think it'll be a DFS exclusive.
Cheers,
Omar

BourbonJoe
07-11-2005, 16:18
I think it'll be a <font color="red"> DFS </font> exclusive.

Omar



DFS ????
Joe http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/usflag.gif

bluesbassdad
07-11-2005, 16:22
"Duty Free Shop" . . . or so the international travelers tell me.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

RedVette
07-12-2005, 14:40
Actually DFS is a brand name of a chain of duty free shops. All DFS stores are duty free shops, but not all duty free shops are DFS.

BrbnBorderline
07-20-2005, 21:22
Can someone explain to me why ER 101 is being discontinued? http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/Demonstration.gif

TIA.


http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

Ken Weber
07-21-2005, 08:38
Nearly every bourbon we have at the Buffalo Trace Distillery is currently on allocation. We quite frankly have sold far more than we anticipated. As a result, we have chosen to use the bourbon slated for Eagle Rare 101 and let it age longer to provide us with the inventories we need for our more popular offerings.

Since most of our bourbons are older (8 years and up), we have to project further out into the future when we distill. Our crystal ball did not indicate that several of our brands would win the awards they have and drive demand well beyond supply. We have stepped up distillation for the last 5 years, still, we are finding it impossible to keep up.

We had to make a determination regarding the brands that had to be sacrificed. Ancient Ancient Age 10 year old is another brand that in my opinion is one of the finest in the world, however, we had to use that bourbon for other more widely popular brands.

None of this has been an enjoyable undertaking. From a marketing standpoint, it is frustrating to have consumer demand, but not be able to supply the product.


Ken

TNbourbon
07-21-2005, 13:07
...Ancient Ancient Age 10 year old is another brand that in my opinion is one of the finest in the world, however, we had to use that bourbon for other more widely popular brands...



Ken, I know you have recently posted that AAA 10yo will be pulled back from active marketing in Virginia, remaining only in general distribution in Kentucky. Is that still the case, or are you intimating here that it will expire completely? (If so, yet another thing to bunker, but for me this one requires a trip to KY http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif)

brendaj
07-21-2005, 17:34
we had to use that bourbon for other more widely popular brands.



I'm with Tim, please say we aren't going to lose AAA entirely. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif
AAA is one of my always-have-a-bottle-open Bourbons.
Bj

BourbonJoe
07-22-2005, 06:26
Ancient Ancient Age 10 year old is another brand that in my opinion is one of the finest in the world, however, we had to use that bourbon for other more widely popular brands.
Ken



Why not just release AAA to a wider market? I'm sure that it would quickly become a "widely popular brand".
Joe http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/usflag.gif

BrbnBorderline
07-22-2005, 12:48
Ancient Ancient Age 10 year old is another brand that in my opinion is one of the finest in the world, however, we had to use that bourbon for other more widely popular brands.

None of this has been an enjoyable undertaking. From a marketing standpoint, it is frustrating to have consumer demand, but not be able to supply the product.


Ken




Bummer. AAA 10 is not even available in WA State. I've never had a chance to try it. Maybe if it WAS available in more areas, it would become popular.

The only BT bourbon that is readily available in WA State without it being specially ordered is AA 4 YO. Too bad.

I wish you had the capacity to make these bourbons available to a wider market.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

bluesbassdad
07-22-2005, 12:55
Joe,

From what Ken has told us in other posts, we can infer that Buffalo Trace has the good fortune to be able to sell as much as they can produce, given that their production standards are obviously very high.

What he hasn't said directly is that even a fine producer such as BT has an interest in making a profit. I'm guessing that producing less (read "none") Eagle Rare 101 and AAA 10 y/o, and, for example, more Eagle Rare SB and Buffalo Trace is good for their bottom line.

The only question I have is whether the same barrels that would have become ER101 or AAA 10 y/o can be used in other bottlings without diminishing their quality.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Ken Weber
07-22-2005, 12:57
Okay team, time for marketing 101. What do you think was the genesis of Woodford Reserve? The reality is that Old Forester is a very nice bourbon, but sells have been declining for years and will never begin to approach what they did 20 -40 years ago. So, invent a new brand that originally used the same whiskey, give it a new package/image, and advertise it to the hilt. Likewise, Ancient Ancient Age has seen its glory days and will not ever be the brand it once was. So, develop a new brand that may have a 50 year life cycle and watch sells increase. This happens all the time. Look at the automotive industry. If Ford came out with a completely revamped Edsel in the late 50s, early 60s, how many would it have sold? Change the name to Mustang and see what happens!

As for discontinuing it in VA, it is inevitable. The only variable is time.

Ken

OneCubeOnly
07-22-2005, 17:22
Ken-

I've thought for a long time that Virginia has been blessed with a true diamond-in-the-rough with AAA10yo. It's a sleeper that I believe is top-shelf quality with a bottom-shelf price tag. From a selfish perspective, I'm truly upset that AAA10yo will eventually disappear. We have Blanton's and ERSB in the higher tier, and standard AA on the bottom, but with no AAA10yo there is no midshelf brand. Will BT become an on-shelf item? That might ease the pain of losing my faithful friend!! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

BourbonJoe
07-23-2005, 06:57
IMHO Buffalo Trace can never replace AAA-10yr. I've had them both and the AAA-10 blows the doors off of BT. The demise of AAA-10 will be a sad day indeed.
Joe http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/usflag.gif

TMH
07-23-2005, 13:08
I actually prefer BT to AAA, but that is just me. Unfortunately BT isn't available in California. I assume its limited availability is a result of supply and demand. Is AA being dropped also, or has it been dropped? I only ask because I see a lot of it sitting on shelves here in California.

It amazes me how many different opinions there can be on a bourbon. I love WT RR 101, but know some people don't care for it. Perhaps they will like the new RR 90.

CrispyCritter
07-23-2005, 20:44
While I find BT and AAA to be quite different, it would be very hard for me to say that one was "better" than the other. Indeed, I find them both to be good, solid pours that offer a lot of quality for the buck. If I'm in the mood for a smooth, gentle bourbon, I reach for the AAA; if I want something a bit more aggressive, the BT gets the nod.

I must say, I've never been let down by anything I've had from Buffalo Trace. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/drink.gif

BourbonJoe
07-24-2005, 08:15
Likewise, Ancient Ancient Age has seen its glory days and will not ever be the brand it once was. So, develop a new brand that may have a 50 year life cycle and watch sells increase.

Ken



If you can't produce enough whiskey to supply present market demand, why on earth would you be interested in selling more whiskey??
Joe http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/usflag.gif

bluesbassdad
07-24-2005, 13:30
Joe,

I think this is yet another instance where the time frame of interest is significant. Somehow the time frame often becomes an invisible premise. When that happens, two (or more) sides in a disagreement are unable (not merely unwilling) to grasp other viewpoints. (My first glimmering of this phenomenon came when General Motors bought my employer, the previously privately owned Hughes Aircraft Company. Within a very short time our time horizon shifted from "the next armed conflict" toward "this quarter".)

As a bourbon purchaser my time horizon is largely keyed to my next purchase opportunity (and I have no concern whatsoever regarding what the masses purchase). I suppose about 10% of my interest and awareness is directed toward future releases and changes in distribution of existing bottlings.

If I were a bourbon supplier, my interest in the future would be greatly increased. I would try to foster as much growth in sales, production and profit as possible (recognizing that changes in the three don't necessarily coincide).

In the current instance another significant factor is the difference between the purchasing criteria of members of this group as compared to the demographic segments that produce the preponderance of the profit in the industry. Yes, we may well be prepared to buy more AAA 10 y/o if it were made available, but we are probably in a tiny minority.

If Buffalo Trace were to expand production of AAA 10 y/o to satisfy the demand among us bourbon fanatics, would sales growth from that point forward be able to keep pace with that of a newly created bottling, unfettered by ties to the distant past? I believe Buffalo Trace is betting the answer is "no", and I tend to agree.

Of course, YMMV.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Ken Weber
07-25-2005, 07:06
Team,
Reading your responses, I must say that I have given the wrong impression concerning Buffalo Trace and AAA 10 year. Since our current whisky inventories have been stretched to the limit, we have increased production every year since I have been here. We have the largest inventory of aged bourbon in the world. Still, several of our brands have been far more successful than we anticipated. When we bought Weller and Charter back in 1999, our acquisition model showed that we bought 2 very mature brands that were experiencing volume declines. As a result, we thought we would have to slowly decrease bourbon production for these two brands. Much to our surprise these brands did not continue to decline, but rather turned around. Now, instead of producing less bourbon, we needed more! Add to that the success of Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare 10 year old SB, Elmer T. Lee, Rock Hill Farms, Blanton's, etc., and you can see that poor forecasting for a couple of years puts a big hole in your ability to meet demand a few years further down the road.

Our goal is to ramp up production every year in order to meet demand. Since demand is currently running ahead of supply, we find ourselves in the enviable position of selling everything we make. We also find ourselves in the position of loosing sells because we can not get more product to the consumers. Look at Buffalo Trace. It is currently rolled out market-wide only in Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, Dallas/Ft. Worth, and London. How many more cases do you think we could sell if it was available in California? However, in our defense, 6 - 8 years ago this distillery was dying and the entire bourbon category was going nowhere fast (except down!). Again, look at Van Winkle. We have more than doubled sells on these brands; where does that whiskey come from? Much of it comes from Weller and Sazerac Rye. Also, we sell out of the 20 and 23 year VW in a matter of days. Who in the world could have predicted back in the early 1980s that people would pay $199/bottle for a 23 year old bourbon? Even if they did, who wants to tie up their cash flow for 23 years before they can realize a return on their investment?

Our goal is to continue increasing production and roll BT out across the country. Please note, AAA 10 year and BT come from 2 different recipes; they are not the same mash bill. BT mashbill #2 (AAA) also produced Blanton's, Elmer T. Lee, Rock Hill Farms, Hancock's, and couple others. We do not want to permanently do away with the brand, simply suspend it until we can bring more stocks on line.

Ken

TNbourbon
07-25-2005, 11:07
Team,
Reading your responses, I must say that I have given the wrong impression concerning Buffalo Trace and AAA 10 year...



Aw, probably not, Ken -- but by now you know the kind of historical sentimentality we bourbonians acquire. So, while it seems like we're misinterpreting and trying to run your business for you, we are, in fact, simply lamenting any diminution of our favorite brands. And, they're ALL our favorites! -- especially, these days, those produced so distinctively by Buffalo Trace. Would that my own skills and products were in as much demand as yours!
Glad that AAA will not expire permanently -- and I'll stock up (or drink down my old stock) waiting for its re-emergence.


...BT mashbill #2 (AAA) also produced Blanton's, Elmer T. Lee, Rock Hill Farms, Hancock's, and couple others.



These are probably my own personal least-explored area of Buffalo Trace's offerings. I've tasted all of them one or twice, but never owned an open bottle of any of them (I currently have only RHF on the shelf, unopened). The Hancock's, frankly, didn't wow me. AAA 10yo, on the other hand, is one that makes me thankful I'm so close to Kentucky. I buy it in some form every time I pass through.

ratcheer
07-25-2005, 16:23
No wonder AAA is so good. Look who its siblings are! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/yum.gif

Tim

ratcheer
07-25-2005, 16:25
I was just in Kentucky a few weeks ago, and two of my three purchases were from that list: Rock Hill Farms and Elmer T. Lee.

I guess I am a member of the Buffalo Trace bandwagon, as Blanton's is another of my perennial favorites.

Tim

barturtle
08-07-2005, 18:31
Would the same thing happen with ER 10yr 101, just suspend it until stocks come on line or is it a goner?

Ken Weber
08-17-2005, 09:56
Interesting question! I really can not answer it at this time. My crystal ball would say that since it has a faithful following, when more whiskey comes on line, the brand may be revived. This is purely speculation on my part at this time.

Ken

barturtle
08-17-2005, 11:43
I'll keep my fingers(and toes) crossed http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif