PDA

View Full Version : Buffalo Trace - Experimental Collection



brewcrew
01-12-2006, 15:00
I stumbled across the below site and decided to try a few random names and came up with a new Buffalo Trace bottling (BT Experiment French Oak Aged). Does anyone have any information about this?

I am having problems posting the picture so you will have to do the following. Click on the below link. Put in a recent date begin range (I used 1/1/05) and then type a name in Product Name (Buffalo Trace). To see the label click on the TTB ID No. and then Printable Version. If you enlarge the label there is a good deal of info on it.
TTB (http://www.ttbonline.gov/colasonline/publicSearchColasBasic.do)

Gillman
01-12-2006, 15:33
Interesting, seems to have been bottled some time ago, and there was only 1 barrel, so likely (I would think) not intended for commercial sale despite the label registration. Note the barrel was built at ISC from French staves.

Gary

brewcrew
01-12-2006, 15:41
I missed the 1 barrel on the label. Makes sense now. I assumed since they registered the label it was for commercial production. I also figured it was new since the label was just registered in Aug 05. Guess I just got a little too excited by the possibility new BT product.

I found that website to be interesting though. I found several new beers on there not released yet but not too much in the way of bourbon.

TNbourbon
01-12-2006, 15:43
Seems they poured it a couple of years ago at Malt Advocate's Chicago WhiskyFest, and some other gatherings -- and Marvin nailed it!
Chicago WhiskyFest 2004 (http://www.straightbourbon.comhttp://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=General&Number=28955&Searchpage=1&Main=28767&Words=%2BMarvin+%2BFrench+%2BOak&topic=&Search=true#Post28955)

Sweetmeats
01-12-2006, 16:05
In the Chicago WhiskeyFest thread, there was the following:



He was unhappy with the amount of leaking Buffalo Trace was having with their barrels and very unhappy when one cooperage tried to place the blame for excessive loss of whiskey during aging on "Gobal Warming".


I am now a staunch supporter of saving the environment! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ChuckMick
01-12-2006, 17:56
Guess I just got a little too excited by the possibility new BT product.




A few weeks back there was a BT (Bufalo Trace) tasting at the Spinghurst store in Louisville. I was a little early and had a chance to talk with a rather tallish man from BT as he was setting up the display before the MD came in. During the conversation we got around to talking about speciality bottlings BT puts out and how pleased I was at the recent Antique Collection. Well conversation got around to other "special" things BT is doing and he let me know that this year, I believe he said in April or May, that BT is going to release a French Oak bottling and the prince will be ~$400-$500 range. I was shocked.

Is this true? Could Ken Weber, or anyone at BT, talk about this?


I assumed he wasn't pulling my chain and this thread brought that back to the forefront of my little mind.


I better start saving my $ now. If it's like Pappy 23 you need to know someone in order to secure a beauty line this.

Any other info on this from anyone?

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/icon_pidu.gif

ChuckMick

Ken Weber
01-13-2006, 16:55
The gentleman in question is John Vereeke, our state sales manager. If you can keep a low profile on this (Mark will kill us if he finds out word has leaked), I can confirm that we will be releasing a few different "experimental" barrels of bourbon and other whiskies within the next month or so. Only a barrel or two exists for each experiment, so distribution will probably be as an exclusive to an account like Binny's or Sam's or ......

Ken

Rughi
01-13-2006, 18:07
Only a barrel or two exists for each experiment, so distribution will probably be as an exclusive to an account like Binny's or Sam's or ......
Ken


Or an ad hoc group of bourbon enthusiasts!!!

I'm sure I'm not overstating that I can guarantee we'll even write up reviews for you.

Roger - Don't make me come up with more cheesy song lyrics - Hodges

clayton
01-17-2006, 15:13
If these get released to a particular store, please let us know! I'm happy to order it from wherever, but just want to get in on the goods! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Brennan77
03-29-2006, 17:42
The spirits buyer at the store I work at called me over to his desk the other day to talk to me about the experimental collection. We've supposedly been put on a short list of stores to receive a case. It looks like the whisky will be in 375ml bottles and will be extremely limited in quantity. There are 4 variations, with one being aged twice or "finished" for 8 months, I believe, in a different barrel. I just skimmed the info on them, but they all sounded very interesting. I can't wait.

cowdery
04-19-2006, 16:46
Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?

That said, the French Oak one is quite tasty.

barturtle
04-19-2006, 16:48
Well, originally I had heard that it was going to be around $80 for that size so suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, but still might be more than I'm willing to cough up...gonna have to try it first.

NorCalBoozer
04-19-2006, 17:02
something tells me most are going to be lucky to find it for $45.


Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?

That said, the French Oak one is quite tasty.

Virus_Of_Life
04-19-2006, 21:31
Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?

That said, the French Oak one is quite tasty.

Being in California I don't think that's a decision I'll have to make...

Maybe that's a good thing as I'd hate to be disappointed or even worse really like it and not be able to get anymore........

camduncan
04-19-2006, 23:01
Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?


Unfortunately, unless I get someone on the board to grab me a bottle and mail it to me, I'm not likely to see these Downunder.

Having said that, I'd happily pay $45 per bottle for a single bottle of each... The question is, would I pay $45 for a second bottle? :skep:

The other question I'd ask is.... if you really, really like one of these....how many are you going to bunker for later?

cowdery
04-20-2006, 00:29
I have to believe that part of what they are doing here is test-marketing some of the ideas they think might have legs. Everyone who has tasted the French Oak, for example, has liked it and it wouldn't surprise me if they have put down a few--maybe a few dozen--barrels of that one, that will be ready in a couple more years. They didn't do this purely for fun--although it was partly for fun--they did it in the hope of hitting on something they can turn into a successful product.

What I think is really exciting is the idea of "experimental" American whiskey actually being marketed. How far we've come.

bluesbassdad
04-20-2006, 01:28
I plan to live vicariously through tasting notes provided by a certain bourbon-only newsletter, the editor of which will undoubtedly receive freebies from Buffalo Trace just for that purpose. :grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

jspero
04-20-2006, 12:01
That said, the French Oak one is quite tasty.

That is probably the only one I'd be willing to try for that price. Having said that, if I only see one of the varieties, I'd probably pick it up, but not all three.

Jay

cowdery
04-20-2006, 13:33
I plan to live vicariously through tasting notes provided by a certain bourbon-only newsletter, the editor of which will undoubtedly receive freebies from Buffalo Trace just for that purpose. :grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Let's both keep our fingers crossed on that one. From your lips to God's ears.

Ken Weber
04-20-2006, 14:48
$45 per bottle!! Wow! The experimental collection consists of French Oak aged, double barrel (aged, dumped, then back in a new barrel), and Firebox (extra crispy chared barrel). The French Oak is very good; the double aged is outstanding; the extra char is just okay.

Still, the price reflects what is happening with Stagg and the rest of the Antique Collection. When we sell the cases we have adopted a policy of making them available to consumers at a fair price. Short supply and large demand drives up the price downstream.

Ken

Grant
04-20-2006, 14:48
Back on Feb 26 2006 I found the Buffalo Trace webcams - and happened to spot some very large push carts filled with some interesting looking bottles - so I zoomed in on them and noticed they contained bottles of Experimental Collection Bourbon.

The carts were placed in a location in a room that was lit poorly - so I could only read a few of the labels that were pointing towards the webcam.

I assume that the 2 attached images are examples of what this thread is all about. I have some other examples if anyone is interested.

Enjoy.

bluesbassdad
04-20-2006, 14:53
I love those labels. I'd buy production bourbon with such labels. Much better than those that contain folklore about historical figures and places combined with a flowery restatement of the legal definition of bourbon.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Gillman
04-20-2006, 15:14
I agree, those labels are great. Why not release them as is (with anything legally required added of course)? Sometimes a simple, natural approach is best.

Gary

CrispyCritter
04-20-2006, 19:41
I'd be very interested in picking up one - the French oak and double-aged sound especially good - but, at $45/375 ml, it's very close to the top of what I'd pay for any whiskey. My hard limit is $100 for a 750, and I've only hit that with Ardbeg 1977 and come close with Glenrothes 1974.

I'm wondering if I'll even manage to see any of these on the shelf, though, given the way Saz 18 disappeared so quickly. :cry:

SBOmarc
04-20-2006, 20:11
Reading this thread with great interest, while knowing full well that this may be the only way for me to learn about them. No way that any of these find a way out to CA. All my hopes are on Binny's. May be my only chance and I must say I've gone to bed with better thoughts.

TNbourbon
04-20-2006, 20:27
Personally, I suspect many of them will never see a retail shelf. It's my understanding BT is directing them to specific, valued retailers in small quantities of under half-a-case -- many times just a bottle or two. Thus, many likely will go directly into those retailers' private collections, or be sold privately to those retailers' best customers.
In short, any one of us is just going to have to get lucky, and be the right person at the right place at the right time.

NorCalBoozer
04-20-2006, 23:47
I wish all distilleries would at least put the barrelled date and bottled date on labels....as we can see with items like some of the Van Winkles, its going to become impossible to know which verision we have and now whats on the selves is unknown. Not that one is worse or better, but we just won't know unless we bought it before the change, but even then we'd have to make sure to note it somehow.

Everything is the same except what's in the bottle. Thats why I wish we could have the dates on there.


I love those labels. I'd buy production bourbon with such labels. Much better than those that contain folklore about historical figures and places combined with a flowerly restatement of the legal definition of bourbon.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

TMH
04-21-2006, 20:17
I wish all distilleries would at least put the barrelled date and bottled date on labels

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most bottles without a barrel date are from several barrels with different ages, which is done in order to meet the brand taste profile.

I'm honestly a little disappointed with what I've seen so far of the experimental collection. I was excited about it until I saw the pictures and read the bottle proof and saw "chill filtered" on the label. Why go all the way to make an unusual product and charge a premium price if you are going to turn it into a regular product in the end? Does anyone know if any of the bottles will be barrel proof or non-chill filtered? Perhaps I'll have to wait for the Signatory bottlings.:grin:

gothbat
04-21-2006, 22:03
They definitely sound interesting but Im kinda turned off about the small bottle size and, to a lesser extent, the $45 - $50 price tag. I know the size is small because they are so limited but for some reason spending 2x the price on a regular size bottle is more appealing and considerable to me. If I saw one for sale and the price wasnt too jacked up Id probably buy it, after all they do sound intriguing, but I dont think I would go out of my way to get one even if I lived somewhere where it seemed possible that a store within a 50 or 60 mile radius might have one.

NorCalBoozer
04-21-2006, 23:53
Hi Tim, good point about different aged bourbons. I would at least appreciate a bottled date for those that are mixtures of different barrel years. Just that bit of information would be of great value.

What if Sazerac or ER 17 didn't have a bottle year on it? The bottles would be of less value because you couldn't be able to differentiate and taste test year vs. year.

on the flip side, something like Pappy 20, Lot B, the Old Rips, etc would reach a higher value by giving year by year differentiation.

Seems like an easy thing to do that would benefit both the consumer and distiller.



Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most bottles without a barrel date are from several barrels with different ages, which is done in order to meet the brand taste profile.

I'm honestly a little disappointed with what I've seen so far of the experimental collection. I was excited about it until I saw the pictures and read the bottle proof and saw "chill filtered" on the label. Why go all the way to make an unusual product and charge a premium price if you are going to turn it into a regular product in the end? Does anyone know if any of the bottles will be barrel proof or non-chill filtered? Perhaps I'll have to wait for the Signatory bottlings.:grin:

Grant
04-22-2006, 12:19
Here's a good article in the Louisville Kentucky Courier-Journal dated April 21, 2006 on these 3 experiments :

http://www.courierjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060421/BUSINESS/604210367&SearchID=73242330822605

Buffalo Trace only made one barrel of each version - enough for fewer than 1,200 small 375-milliliter bottles selling for about $46 each - which comes out to be about $55,000 - or $18,333 per barrel.

BTW - Cowdery is quoted in this article.

TMH
04-22-2006, 16:23
Greg,

I really like your idea about putting more bottling info on the label. I also really like the fact that there is info on ER 17. I'd like to see more on Stagg besides the proof. I do think some bottles are made up of too many barrels to list on the label; however, it would be interesting to know how many go into a bottle.

Some have raised the issue of the high price on these experimental bottles, as a reason for passing up on these bottles. Price for me isn't the main issue of why I'd pass on these bottles. If they were at barrel proof and not chill filtered, I could see them being worth the price or even a higher price. I guess I'm the only one writing on this thread who cares about proof and chill filtering, which is unfortunate. Both of these factors really do affect the bourbon. Given the small size of the production run, I'm really surprised BT decided to water down and filter the bourbon. I would guess BT knows something I don't know about their consumers. Perhaps even among SBers price really does matter in the end.

BourbonSteve
04-22-2006, 17:44
I'm in atlanta. Where can a body get one of these babies?!

cowdery
04-22-2006, 18:46
I'm in atlanta. Where can a body get one of these babies?!

Your best bet is to contact Buffalo Trace and let them guide you to the retailers in your area that are receiving an allocation.

You can also try the retailer finder (http://www.buffalotrace.com/main.asp?page=retailers) on their web site, then contact the retailer and ask them. This has the benefit of sending a demand signal through the supply chain, which has long term benefits for the availablity of premium bourbons in your area.

Rughi
04-22-2006, 19:09
I guess I'm the only one writing on this thread who cares about proof and chill filtering...

Not at all, Tim. I wrote, and recomposed, and edited, and then deleted a message that I thought was too strongly worded. I lost at least 1/2 of my interest in these when I read that they are going to be stripped and diluted to that extent.

I do like the small bottle concept, though, a lot. I have dozens of bottles that are open, but rarely empty one (except for mixers and the bulk stuff that makes sauces). Fifty dollars for a small bottle gets me a few years worth of sipping, the way I do small pours and skip around between my open bottles. Two small bottles in my bunker would be much more useful to me than one big one.

Hey, Marketing Guys -
If I were ever asked to be in a survey, here are the two things I'd like to say:

1) The phrase "Un-chill Filtered" gets my attention more than anything else you can put on the label. To me it says "The Good Stuff" the way we're told "Bottled in Bond" was considered in the Good Ole Days.

2) Every time I consider buying an "under proof" bourbon (which to me means less than 100 proof) I do some mental math to calculate how diminished the bourbon is by water. I'll think things like "this is a blended bourbon; 72% barrel proof, 28% water." Then I usually get confused by the math, and wander off. :confused:
Really guys, is it wise to have bourbon customers trying to do math in their head when they're just trying to buy a drink? Consider the Wandering Off Factor - it could be considerable.:)

All that said, I buy a lot of Buffalo Trace products, and never turn one down.

Roger

dougdog
04-23-2006, 11:49
DITTO!..what Roger said...

Every part of it, and then some...

It's the "then some" part that I had to edit out....

doug--don't get me started---dog

(Truth be told, woulda loved to read what you deleted....)

BourbonSteve
04-23-2006, 21:44
thanks Chuck, I emailed them 2 weeks ago but never heard back.................

NorCalBoozer
04-24-2006, 11:23
Hey, Marketing Guys -
If I were ever asked to be in a survey, here are the two things I'd like to say:

1) The phrase "Un-chill Filtered" gets my attention more than anything else you can put on the label. To me it says "The Good Stuff" the way we're told "Bottled in Bond" was considered in the Good Ole Days.
Roger

ditto, I agree 100% with this point. I think BT, overall, is taking things in the right direction, and I hope others will take the opportunity to continue to push the quality envelope of bourbon.

Vange
04-24-2006, 12:41
I emailed my local vendor that had Pappy 23 and asked them if they could get any BT experimental or have heard anything about it. I will report back if there are successful and I can get multiple bottles for members of this forum. Cross your fingers.

TNbourbon
04-24-2006, 15:15
I'm glad to see so much enthusiasm about a bourbon release (I think!:skep:), but I also think there are too many folks with their hopes up. Reread that C-J article -- there are 100 retailers getting ANY. Nationwide. Worldwide. And nary a one of them is under any obligation to sell a single bottle. I know quite a few retailers who set aside special bottles for future speculation.
I, too, have put in a word with a retailer or two I think might be on Buffalo Trace's favored list. But I don't have any delusions about what it's going to take to get one or more of these -- luck, simply being the right guy in the right place when one comes up for sale.

BobA
04-24-2006, 15:53
BourbonSteve,
I fear the answer to your question is "out-of-state." I have never seen Stagg, ETL, or Saz in GA, or any VW rye, and I doubt they'll be sending this stuff here.
Bob

whiskeymaven
04-24-2006, 23:55
Hey guys. I'm sure this is one of many "experimental" BT whiskies. I was assured by the rep from BT that the success of the antique collection would further their exploration into different and experimental expressions. The fact of the matter is; it might not be that great, or at least a product they want to hold onto for a while. Not just the taste, but the idea. Bottles like these sell on their rareness, and as I can see almost all of us want one, or would at least pay a few bucks to try it.

NorCalBoozer
04-25-2006, 10:41
I've got my own "experiments" in a barrel in my garage and it didn't cost anywhere near $46 per 375 ml, and I'm including the barrel and starter bourbon.

Vange
04-27-2006, 13:42
This BTEC release is going to be a tough set to find anywhere! I have emailed tons of places and most are not going to ever even see it!!! Anyone else having more luck than me?

jeff
04-27-2006, 13:56
Nope. What little that's going to be around here was apparently spoken for months ago :cry:

pepcycle
04-27-2006, 14:39
I would like to put in a big plug for Party Source in Newport, KY.
Having expended all of my local options, I stopped in on my way back from Cinci.
I asked a few people on the floor about BTEC and got "deer in the headlights".

I asked for the spirits specialist and was introduced to Jay.
He was impressed that I drove from Lexington and indicated that he received an allocation and was calling his A-list customers to offer it to them.
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
He offered me the last bottle. Firepot. I slipped in my own drool, only once on the way to the register.

Notwithstanding, this is a great store. They have cooking classes and tastings and a great web site. Ten times friendlier than Cork and Bottle.

When I went to C&B they gave me a lecture about charred new oak barrels and 51% corn, but couldn't tell me &^% about the BTEC. Kind of weird.

:smiley_acbt: :smiley_acbt:

Edward_call_me_Ed
04-30-2006, 06:47
Well, I know that I am not going to see any of these releases. If I do it will be at absurdly inflated prices. I am looking forward to the commercial releases that come from the experiments.
Ed

Edward_call_me_Ed
04-30-2006, 06:49
I do remember reading about a barrel of Glenmorangie Single Malt Scotch that was being aged in Kentucky at BT. Anyone hear how that turned out?
Ed

JeffRenner
05-01-2006, 18:57
I do remember reading about a barrel of Glenmorangie Single Malt Scotch that was being aged in Kentucky at BT. Anyone hear how that turned out?

That sounds suspicously like what I read about on p. 140 of Waymark and Harris's Classic American Whiseys (1995), but it was being aged at Marker's Mark, who provides the bourbon barrels for Glenmorangie. At this point, that malt should be well aged (considering Kentucky climate vs, Scotland), but I haven't heard anything more about it, either.

Jeff

ThomasH
05-07-2006, 20:44
Now on ebay, a 3 bottle set of the experimental collection. Seller is "jakecollectibles" and starting price is 475.00. Anyone know who this guy is? It seems to me that maybe he owns a liquor store!

Thomas

Sweetmeats
05-08-2006, 10:54
Is there a legal reason why Buffalo Trace could not sell these themselves? Or at least start a side division to handle it?

Pharaoh
05-08-2006, 11:45
I do remember reading about a barrel of Glenmorangie Single Malt Scotch that was being aged in Kentucky at BT. Anyone hear how that turned out?
EdI'd bet you meant Glenfarclas instead of 'morangie.

barturtle
05-08-2006, 12:15
Yes there is a legal reason: the three tier liquor system. Manufacturer, Distributor and Retailer must all be seperate entities, under seperate ownership

Grant
05-08-2006, 15:05
Now on ebay, a 3 bottle set of the experimental collection. Seller is "jakecollectibles" and starting price is 475.00. Anyone know who this guy is? It seems to me that maybe he owns a liquor store!

Thomas

Only $158 per bottle! Wait - you have to pay $9.00 shipping too. What a deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-BUFFALO-TRACE-SINGLE-BARREL-EXPERIMENTAL-COLLECTION_W0QQitemZ6278174617QQcategoryZ13916QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

TNbourbon
05-08-2006, 21:02
I got curious today, so contacted the liquor manager for the area distributor which handles BT products directly -- and learned that Middle Tennessee got exactly ONE 12-bottle case (presumably, four of each bourbons), which went to Frugal McDoogal's, a Nashville liquor 'superstore'. A phone call to the store got me absolutely nowhere -- the person I talked to knew nothing about it, and couldn't find it in his database. Not surprising, I guess. It probably went directly to 'best customers' or the store manager's personal collection. Still, I may make a stop in there to question staff face-to-face sometime this week.

ProofPositive
05-08-2006, 23:20
I got curious today, so contacted the liquor manager for the area distributor which handles BT products directly -- and learned that Middle Tennessee got exactly ONE 12-bottle case (presumably, four of each bourbons), which went to Frugal McDoogal's, a Nashville liquor 'superstore'. A phone call to the store got me absolutely nowhere -- the person I talked to knew nothing about it, and couldn't find it in his database. Not surprising, I guess. It probably went directly to 'best customers' or the store manager's personal collection. Still, I may make a stop in there to question staff face-to-face sometime this week.

Very interesting. I got much the same response from the biggest retailer in Memphis today by phone. I am off work tomorrow and heading over there in the morning to talk directly to staff about it. This is the first place in town to look for just about anything coming out of BT. I got my Pappy 23 there before anyone else in town had even 1 bottle. Will check in tomorrow evening and update.

cowdery
05-10-2006, 17:27
Now on ebay, a 3 bottle set of the experimental collection. Seller is "jakecollectibles" and starting price is 475.00. Anyone know who this guy is? It seems to me that maybe he owns a liquor store!

Thomas

I'm not quite sure why, but it seems to me that a retail license holder just might be risking his license by trying to sell something from his inventory on eBay. For one thing, some states have maximum price regulations. So the license holder officially "sells" the valuable bottles to his brother-in-law, who puts them on eBay.

Edward_call_me_Ed
05-10-2006, 23:25
That sounds suspicously like what I read about on p. 140 of Waymark and Harris's Classic American Whiseys (1995), but it was being aged at Marker's Mark, who provides the bourbon barrels for Glenmorangie. At this point, that malt should be well aged (considering Kentucky climate vs, Scotland), but I haven't heard anything more about it, either.

Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Yep, you are right. I have the same book, but evidently I don't have as good a memory as you do.
Thanks.
Ed

ProofPositive
05-10-2006, 23:27
Getting nowhere fast around the Memphis area. Nobody seems to know anything about the Experimental Collection. One store clerk acted like he did and then proceeded to tell me that the BTEC is the same bourbon as the hand-picked single barrels from Buffalo Trace that he & many other retailers pick for their individual store bottlings-??? Also, he swears that all BT single barrels selected by retailers is 10 years old. I left before getting too far with him....hate to offend anyone in the business. Not a good idea to burn any bridges! Maybe like Tim, there will be at least a case available in the local area.....hopefully!

I will report back if I find anyone around here with anything close to reasonable knowledge about the EC. At this point, it seems that is a remote chance around here.....but, I have been here most of my life and am used to the slowness of mind prevalent in this town. IMHO, I think too much moonshine was consumed in this area for too many years and the gene pools got corrupted beyond repair!

BSS
05-11-2006, 04:49
Proof

If any store in Memphis got any, I would be very surprised if it was still at the store.

And I would cut the stores some slack. If they weren't ever told they were going to get any, and never expected to get any, I don't know how they would have really known much about it. It's not like it was some highly published release or anything. It might seem like it because people on here know about it, but that doesn't make it common knowledge, even to liquor store owners. We have owners here at decent stores within 25 miles of BT that didn't know anything about it. It wasn't ever offered to them, so they weren't really ever told about it.

jeff
05-11-2006, 06:00
I'll go out on a limb here and say that there probably isn't a single bottle of this stuff anywhere that's unaccounted for. I was told that the Liquor Barns here in Lexington got one case or less per store, and not a single bottle touched a shelf. I would be suprised if any of the three bottlings ever made it out onto a sales floor, anywhere.

chasking
05-11-2006, 09:25
I suppose offering these special bottlings is a way for BT to get rid of some of their oddball casks at a profit, but it's not going to tell them whether any of their experiments have succeeded or not: if all the bottles are snatched up as collectibles, they will be unable to tell whether people are buying their new and different whiskeys because they like them.

NorCalBoozer
05-11-2006, 10:29
I suppose offering these special bottlings is a way for BT to get rid of some of their oddball casks at a profit, but it's not going to tell them whether any of their experiments have succeeded or not: if all the bottles are snatched up as collectibles, they will be unable to tell whether people are buying their new and different whiskeys because they like them.

Hopefully this wasn't their intended aftermath. I love BT products but I'm not going to start paying 6x retail for a 375 ml that is already priced at over $40 suggested retail. BT has a very loyal customer base (myself included), but this was a great idea that just ended up leaving a lot of us frustrated.

If they don't control the distribution channel, I'd rather see experiments like this kept in house, do tastings and then, if they feel it's good enough, put it in a decent size production run that we actually have a shot at.

BSS
05-11-2006, 14:51
I thought the same thing as NorCal.

Hopefully they weren't expecting to get a true idea about how well these would be accepted by the public based on this release. If they were, they aren't as business savy as I thought.

I will assume that they intended to try it themselves to determine its quality(and if they wanted to make a production run of it), and then dump the extra on the public. I would bet that less than 50% of those bottles will ever be opened.

jburlowski
05-11-2006, 17:20
If they truly wanted to test market exceptance, they would have released these randomly without any advance publicity. Either the BT folks (of whom I'm a big fan) are truly inept or they are merely interested in getting a little publicity and as many bucks as possible from a noble (bur perhaps failed) experiment.

cowdery
05-11-2006, 20:18
Hindsight is always 20-20. Did BT know this offering would sell out in the blink of an eye? Of course not. You never do in business. People who make those kinds of gambles see "sure things" tank and dubious propositions soar all the time. Yes, they brought out a product and sold it at a profit (shame on them?) but they also made a statement that they are willing to try things. The purpose of the publicity wasn't to sell these 400 cases, or whatever it was, it was to let people know that BT is a leader, pushing the envelope, trying new things. Do we really want to criticize them for that?

BourbonSteve
05-11-2006, 21:30
well put Chuck.

ProofPositive
05-11-2006, 23:50
If they don't control the distribution channel, I'd rather see experiments like this kept in house, do tastings and then, if they feel it's good enough, put it in a decent size production run that we actually have a shot at.

I agree. I finally found one retailer in town today who had some limited knowledge of the BTEC.....and, he said he just learned about it yesterday from the local sales rep for BT who came by his place on his rounds. He said the rep asked him if he wanted any and if so, how much. The retailer was told by the rep that it will be available in late June or early July.....huh??? Maybe even the sales reps do not even know as much as we do. I did not bother to differ with the fellow on the expected timetable of release by telling him it had already been released. I just left my name with him - for when and if he is able to procure any of the BTEC.

Is it possible that BT is going to release more of the EC, and, in greater number sometime next month or this summer? Or, is the sales rep misinformed? Or better yet, did he misinform the retailer? (Although I can find no logical reason for that).

Ken Weber, what say ye?

BSS
05-12-2006, 04:44
If it means anything Proof, it seems like sales reps being misinformed is the common theme around here too.

Two stores I went to said they were told that they would be getting a case, but they were later told they wouldn't. So I don't always think those guys know what their talking about.

jeff
05-12-2006, 08:35
Is it possible that BT is going to release more of the EC, and, in greater number sometime next month or this summer? Or, is the sales rep misinformed? Or better yet, did he misinform the retailer? (Although I can find no logical reason for that).



Indeed BT plans to release more of the BTEC, but in different forms. We got to try the next release during the sampler weekend at the BT lab. We were told that it would be bottled sometime in August. I'll let BT comment publically on what it is.

pepcycle
05-12-2006, 08:47
IMHO, BT had all the info they needed when their panel finished tasting.

I think they were generous in deciding to distribute the remainder of the whiskey in a barrel.

It has to be pretty expensive to do single barrel (and I do mean only one) releases.

The price is high, but fair and I don't think they make much.

I mean, they're not establishing a market now for something they may decide to put into production, that won't be available for 16 years.

Seems to me, they could easily have put aside a gallon or two in the lab and dumped the rest with a lot less trouble. I respect that somebody there knows that folks like us would appreciate a shot of something different, whether it be good, bad or four grain.

NorCalBoozer
05-12-2006, 11:17
Ed, the problem I see is with the distribution channel that exists for BT products. This stuff never hit the shelves in all reality. This may not specifically be something BT's can control, although it affects its products.

So the real question for me is, ok BT is going to make some more releases of these types of items, are we ever even going to be able to see them or are the distributors and retailers going to just suck them up?

To me that is a valid criticism that us BT fans would love to see rectified for future releases. BT's only problem at this point is that their products are so sought after than even the distributors and retailers are grabbing them up.

Rancastle
05-12-2006, 11:22
I agree Ed! Buffalo Trace has enough taste buds on the payroll to determine if a product will be right for the market place! I would say it was generous of them to bottle these experiments rather then dump them down the drain. With the limited amount, the 375ml bottles allowed a few additional people to aquire a bottle, even if it never reached the shelf. As far as distrubution, there's no other legal way without going to the trouble of letting some one pick it as a Single Barrel, letting it go to the distributor, then picking it up at some liquor store somewhere. How many people do you piss off selling it all to a single person or group?

NorCalBoozer
05-12-2006, 11:29
can they sell alcohol at their store at the distillery? I don't know but i though distillers could do this.

I am not trying to say what they should've done, but rather maybe there could be some other alternatives for the future.

Rancastle
05-12-2006, 11:56
Yes, they can sell bottles at the distillery, with limits. Then its first come first serve. The way it was distributed they had some control, and were able to reward the distributors and retailers they consider their best. If the distributors and retailers do the same with their best costomers Buffalo Trace still achives its goal.

cowdery
05-12-2006, 12:24
As I understand the Kentucky law, the distillery has to obtain from the state a “souvenir retail liquor license.” Although the bottles to be sold in this way do not have to be physically conveyed through a wholesaler, such a transaction does have to take place on paper.

There is a limit of three liters per visitor per day unless the souvenirs are purchased by a group (e.g., a package tour that includes them as part of the tour price), in which case the per-visitor limit is one liter.

Although the law refers to merchandise sold under the souvenir retail liquor license as a “souvenir package,” that term is not defined and appears to be meaningless. In other words, it’s a normal production product sold as a souvenir.

In fact, the creation of a product exclusively for gift shop sales appears to be prohibited by the following provision: “No wholesaler may restrict the sale of souvenir packages to the souvenir retail liquor licensee exclusively, but shall make souvenir packages available to any Kentucky retail licensee licensed for the sale of distilled spirits by the package.” In other words, although Buffalo Trace could have restricted sale of the EC to Kentucky wholesalers, hence Kentucky retailers, only, it could not by law restrict its sale exclusively to the BT gift shop.

Would it have made any of those complaining happier if the EC had been available only in Kentucky, like Four Roses Single Barrel? I think Randy (Rancastle) has it right. They allocate it fairly to their distributors and hope for the best. That's really all they can do, except suggest how the distributors and, subsequently, the retailers might allocate it, but they can't control that. Some of the complainers seem to be saying, "if I can't have it, nobody should have it." Is that really what you want?

Here's another way they could have gone and let's see if you like this better. They could have priced it at $300 a bottle. That probably would have slowed sales somewhat and improved availability. Would that have made you guys happy?

bluesbassdad
05-12-2006, 12:42
Considering the currents of ill will that exist now in some quarters and the lack of profit potential from such a limited release, if I were BT I would never again make such a scarce product available for sale through existing channels.

How about this? Next time, they give it away. Or maybe raffle it in support of a bourbon related cause. Do it at a nationally known gathering where lots of bourbon fans are known to attend. Then open each bottle before handing it to the lucky buyer/winner.

I won't have a dog in this hunt, but I wish all my SB friends good luck at the soon-to-be-announced (???) Buffalo Trace EC drawing/auction.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

NorCalBoozer
05-12-2006, 13:20
Here's another way they could have gone and let's see if you like this better. They could have priced it at $300 a bottle. That probably would have slowed sales somewhat and improved availability. Would that have made you guys happy?


or they could've packaged it in 50 ml bottles.

TMH
05-12-2006, 13:56
One thing seems certain, the EC wasn't meant for a general public release.

It seems a lot of excitement was created because of the experimental and limited nature of the bourbon. After I saw the labels and realized these were basically standard proof bourbons in different wood, I lost my interest because I misunderstood the nature of the release. I failed to understand these were simply left over bottles that were meant to be sold to top clients as a way of saying thank you for buying BT.

Knowing now what the EC really is has made me have no real interest in the bottles, not because I don't have a curiosity or think they'll taste interesting, but because I know there is a good chance these bourbons will eventually become future regular midshelf BT releases. I can wait and so can my wallet.

The real issue is the various state regulations and overall alcohol distribution system in the U.S. that act like barriers between consumers and producers, which I doubt will ever change. That's too bad because companies like BT would benefit from a different system and so would we.

Grant
05-12-2006, 14:18
Would it have made any of those complaining happier if the EC had been available only in Kentucky, like Four Roses Single Barrel? I think Randy (Rancastle) has it right. They allocate it fairly to their distributors and hope for the best. That's really all they can do, except suggest how the distributors and, subsequently, the retailers might allocate it, but they can't control that. Some of the complainers seem to be saying, "if I can't have it, nobody should have it." Is that really what you want?

Here's another way they could have gone and let's see if you like this better. They could have priced it at $300 a bottle. That probably would have slowed sales somewhat and improved availability. Would that have made you guys happy?

cowdery:

I'm one of the people that seems to fit into your group of complainers.

Only 1,200 375ml bottles.

How many distributors do they have?

How many retailers do these distributors have?

How many of these 375ml bottles would ever make it to a consumer that walked into a store?

So - what is the purpose of this experimental release? Certainly not to draw any marketing information regarding the quality of the contents of these bottles from the general public or even the informed Bourbon drinking public.


BTW - you said earlier in this thread :

"Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?"

If $45 was too much then - then what's up with the $300 a bottle price question?

barturtle
05-12-2006, 14:51
I'm trying not to be one of the complainers, and though I tried-even though I originally said that I'd have to try it first-to obtain a bottle, I wouldn't say I put much effort into it. I contacted only one retailer, instead of using some of my better contacts to try to obtain some. I really didn't try too hard because it was a bit hard to justify spending that much money on that little bottle when I had never tried it first.

However having said that, and still not begrudging BT or any of the people who managed to get a bottle, I would like to know how BT decides who was on their "preferred retailer" list. I only really wonder this because the store that I did contact is a well known and popular retailer in Louisville, that carries a large selection of bourbon (including every BT and VW as well as all the KBD products and is the only place I know of in Louisville to get Rittenhouse), yet they told me that they didn't make it onto that list! How? Why?

Oh, Well! No hard feelings. If I had really wanted some I would have tried harder. Maybe, just maybe, there is some at a bar somewhere to try:rolleyes:

Grant
05-12-2006, 15:09
Maybe, just maybe, there is some at a bar somewhere to try:rolleyes:

If you find some in a bar anywhere - I'd make sure that you see them open the bottle!

Look out for counterfeits - easy to do with this label...

cowdery
05-12-2006, 17:05
I would like to know how BT decides who was on their "preferred retailer" list. I only really wonder this because the store that I did contact is a well known and popular retailer in Louisville, that carries a large selection of bourbon (including every BT and VW as well as all the KBD products and is the only place I know of in Louisville to get Rittenhouse), yet they told me that they didn't make it onto that list! How? Why?

I thought I made that clear. BT can allocate to its distributors but it's up to the distributors from there. I don't mean to be disingenuous--BT has influence with its distributors--but it's the distributor who decides which retailers to allocate to and the retailers who decide which consumers to allocate to.

My point is that BT, while surely hoping the release would be a blow-out success, certainly had no guarantees that it would be.

My further point is that the distributors and retailers, being reasonable business people, gave their best customers first dibs. Remember that "retail" means both on- and off-premise (i.e., bars as well as stores). "Best" means "biggest" as in "most money spent," and while all of us here probably think we spend a lot, probably not one of us is on the top 10 list at the place where he or she shops. I know I'm not.

Also, don't discount the possibility that the person you talked to at your leading Louisville retailer was lying.

All I'm saying is that if you want to blame BT for something, make sure it's something BT actually did.

barturtle
05-12-2006, 17:18
Also, don't discount the possibility that the person you talked to at your leading Louisville retailer was lying.

That thought did cross my mind...

NorCalBoozer
05-12-2006, 18:27
The real issue is the various state regulations and overall alcohol distribution system in the U.S. that act like barriers between consumers and producers, which I doubt will ever change. That's too bad because companies like BT would benefit from a different system and so would we.

Yup, Even if it's not BT fault, it reflects back on BT and I'm sure BT doesn't like it.

It's funny that people here are being labeled "complainers" when this product information was orginally released and hyped here.

cowdery
05-12-2006, 18:33
The one thing about alcohol regulation to keep in mind and always remember is that it has nothing to do with health, safety, protection of children, or anything else other than the collection of taxes.

SBOmarc
05-12-2006, 19:03
The one thing about alcohol regulation to keep in mind and always remember is that it has nothing to do with health, safety, protection of children, or anything else other than the collection of taxes.


That's a fact !

Grant
05-12-2006, 19:10
I thought I made that clear. BT can allocate to its distributors but it's up to the distributors from there. I don't mean to be disingenuous--BT has influence with its distributors--but it's the distributor who decides which retailers to allocate to and the retailers who decide which consumers to allocate to.

My point is that BT, while surely hoping the release would be a blow-out success, certainly had no guarantees that it would be.

My further point is that the distributors and retailers, being reasonable business people, gave their best customers first dibs. Remember that "retail" means both on- and off-premise (i.e., bars as well as stores). "Best" means "biggest" as in "most money spent," and while all of us here probably think we spend a lot, probably not one of us is on the top 10 list at the place where he or she shops. I know I'm not.

Also, don't discount the possibility that the person you talked to at your leading Louisville retailer was lying.

All I'm saying is that if you want to blame BT for something, make sure it's something BT actually did.

cowdery

Once again I ask - how would you consider a release of 1,200 375ml bottles that never make it to the general population - even be considered to be part of a 'blow-out' success?

BTW cowdery - How many of these bottles do you own?

cowdery
05-12-2006, 19:34
cowdery

Once again I ask - how would you consider a release of 1,200 375ml bottles that never make it to the general population - even be considered to be part of a 'blow-out' success?

They quickly sold everything they made, at presumably a nice profit, and reaped a lot of publicity. The tenor of some of the comments here aside, they left the public wanting more, laying the groundwork for future success on perhaps a grander scale. And they furthered their reputation as a leader and innovator in their industry.

I don't know what business you're in, but how is that not a 'blow-out' success?

Grant
05-12-2006, 20:00
They quickly sold everything they made, at presumably a nice profit, and reaped a lot of publicity. The tenor of some of the comments here aside, they left the public wanting more, laying the groundwork for future success on perhaps a grander scale. And they furthered their reputation as a leader and innovator in their industry.

I don't know what business you're in, but how is that not a 'blow-out' success?

Thanks for disregarding - and not responding to -the points of my previous entries in this thread when asking you point blank questions.

I don't know what your affiliation is with BT - but I find your comments from the start of this thread thru your last - to be from one extreme to the other - i.e. contradictions.

bluesbassdad
05-12-2006, 20:12
Grant (may I call you Grant?),

Deliberate sarcasm will not endear you to fellow members of StraightBourbon.com, whether Chuck Cowdery minds or not. This is an amiable community, and we all want to keep it that way.

If you believe you have been insulted, I suggest you use the Private Message feature to straighten things out. You may want to consider giving yourself a timeout for a day or so before you make things worse.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Grant
05-12-2006, 20:31
Grant (may I call you Grant?),

Deliberate sarcasm will not endear you to fellow members of StraightBourbon.com, whether Chuck Cowdery minds or not. This is an amiable community, and we all want to keep it that way.

If you believe you have been insulted, I suggest you use the Private Message feature to straighten things out. You may want to consider giving yourself a timeout for a day or so before you make things worse.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield


Understood - I did not mean to offend anyone.

I was not being sarcastic. I do feel that anyone that posts into a thread should be willing to account for their previous vs current views.

BSS
05-12-2006, 22:26
I don't think the public wants more, they just want the chance to try it (It could be argued that it was "public", but we all know in reality that is not true") . Wanting more gives the impression that most have already had it and have some desire to have more because they were pleased with the previous product. I don't think you can say that is true with the EC. I haven't heard one person that was able to purchase some of it actually say they wanted more.

MGillespie
05-12-2006, 22:29
FYI...I have an interview with Harlen Wheatley of BT on the new episode of WhiskyCast talking about the experimental collection...

Mark
www.whiskycast.com

Rughi
05-13-2006, 09:08
You may want to consider giving yourself a timeout for a day or so before you make things worse.

After the drubbing that the good folks at BT have been taking, I think this thread may need a timeout. In retrospect, I regret having brought my enthusiasm for barrel-condition sampling into the discussion of their experimental releases.

Hey Buffalo Trace - I like you guys, a lot. I think the negativity in this thread comes from a perceived one-time let down of the high standard of good feelings people have for your consistently good products and the friendly, open way you do business. Keep on keepin' on....

Roger

bluesbassdad
05-13-2006, 11:54
Well said, Roger.

I hadn't yet come to grips with my growing feeling of unease, but you just about nailed it. I would go a step further and point out that the actions of others, after the product was out of BT's hands, are the sole source of any negative feelings I may have.

As you said, I think any discussion of such unintended consequences might better be put off for a while.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

bluesbassdad
05-13-2006, 11:59
Well said, as was Roger's post, here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=60680#poststop), which I think contains a worthwhile suggestion.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

photogjunkie
05-13-2006, 15:25
I guess if you wanted to try the stuff and wanted to pay to do it....

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-BUFFALO-TRACE-SINGLE-BARREL-EXPERIMENTAL-COLLECTION_W0QQitemZ6278174617QQcategoryZ13916QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'll just look at the pictures of the bottles.

CrispyCritter
05-13-2006, 22:34
My $0.02:

I had no illusions that I'd ever see a bottle of this on the shelf. I was lucky that I even managed to score two bottles of Sazerac 18, after all - it was gone from the Chicago area in a the blink of an eye, and it wasn't as rare as the XC! My remaining bottle of Saz 18 won't be opened until the next release.

If I would lay blame anywhere regarding the XC's lack of availability, it would be squarely on our goofy liquor regulations, which seem to be designed to benefit the middlemen more than anything else. I heartily applaud that BT at least made the effort to release it - as others have mentioned, they could have just as easily kept a few sample bottles and dumped the remainder - or redistilled it into vodka. :bigeyes:

Let's hope that any or all of these experiments were successful enough that we'll eventually see a real release - I'm especially intrigued by the French oak.

Packaging idea: two 375 ml bottles, same distillation, one American oak, one French oak, same age, same warehouse, one package.

ProofPositive
05-13-2006, 23:16
I guess if you wanted to try the stuff and wanted to pay to do it....

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-BUFFALO-TRACE-SINGLE-BARREL-EXPERIMENTAL-COLLECTION_W0QQitemZ6278174617QQcategoryZ13916QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'll just look at the pictures of the bottles.

Well, I won't say what I think about someone paying $400 because it could be an SB.com mate.....but, I hope not. Anyhow, somebody had some brass nuggets and paid the price tonight on ebay and it sure weren't me!!!

Hedmans Brorsa
05-14-2006, 03:42
somebody had some brass nuggets and paid the price tonight on ebay and it sure weren't me!!!

Think of all the good whiskey bottles you can get for that price! At the moment I´m enjoying brilliant stuff from all over the world (well, almost!) including my recent brilliant E.T. Lee, Blanton´s STFB, Stagg and even my newly acquired RHF has shaped up a bit even if I still regard it as a minor disappointment. Hey, I even managed to find a bottle of AAA 10yo (in Denmark, of all places!)

Dave and Roger,

Do I understand you right here, i.e. that you are advocating self-censorhip? I hope I´m wrong but if not I think you should ask yourself what constitues a true friend.

From my experience, the ones who are always nice to you are, more often than not, the same people who talk badly about you behind your back.

A true friend, on the other hand, praises and encourages you when it is deserved and, at the same time, dares to criticize you when it is called for.

I cannot in my wildest dreams think that anyone from BT who stops by at this forum would dismiss SB.com members as "enemies" just because of one complaint.

A community that chokes on its own over-friendliness is not a good thing in my book. To me it is an invitation to dullness and complacency.

Hey, even the head honcho himself, Jim, is prone to the odd venom spitting and I like him all the better for it! :)

Rughi
05-14-2006, 08:32
Dave and Roger,

Do I understand you right here, i.e. that you are advocating self-censorhip? I hope I´m wrong but if not I think you should ask yourself what constitues a true friend....A community that chokes on its own over-friendliness is not a good thing in my book. To me it is an invitation to dullness and complacency.

Hedmans,
There is constructive criticism and then there's the angry mob. Your post is the 101st of a thread in which probably 90+ get a good kick or slap in at BT. I think your post is a theoretical stance about free speech and "good friends", but doesn't respond to what has really happened in this thread at all.

In American Football there's a rule against "piling on" where it's a penalty to have more than 5 or 6 people hit the ball carrier before they bring him down (the first 3 or 4 to hit him is just good clean fun). I see piling on in this thread. I guess some will keep on piling on if that's what it takes for them to feel they are exercising their right to "free speech" or in an attempt to be a "good friend" but I don't feel the need to get any more punches in.

Roger

ThomasH
05-14-2006, 08:55
It looks like the EC was a retail success, someone paid 400.00 for a set on ebay last night!

thomas

BSS
05-14-2006, 09:38
Off the topic,

But Roger, you don't really think there is a rule in American Football that says "it's a penalty to have more than 5 or 6 people hit the ball carrier before they bring him down"........do you?

Hopefully you were just joking.

Rughi
05-14-2006, 10:03
Off the topic,

But Roger, you don't really think there is a rule in American Football that says "it's a penalty to have more than 5 or 6 people hit the ball carrier before they bring him down"........do you?

Hopefully you were just joking.

No True American jokes about Football :)

It should have said "after" not "before"

Here is a definition from football.com (http://www.football.com/dictionary/#P)
"PILING ON: Several players jumping on the player with the ball after he's been tackled. Also called dogpiling.Piling on is illegal, with a 15 yard penalty."

In my experience growing up as a Raider fan in the era when they were the winningest team in professional sports (or so they claimed) and exhibited a certain joie de vivre in their style of play, the first 3 or 4 to get a hit in after the ballcarrier was down was, indeed, just good clean fun. I think 3 or 4 is "a few" and 5 or 6 is "several," which would, of course be a penalty.

Roger

bluesbassdad
05-14-2006, 13:43
Do I understand you right here, . . .

My response does not belong in this thread. I have sent you a Private Message.

Please carry on. :grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

ProofPositive
05-14-2006, 14:11
Indeed BT plans to release more of the BTEC, but in different forms. We got to try the next release during the sampler weekend at the BT lab. We were told that it would be bottled sometime in August. I'll let BT comment publically on what it is.

Sounds good - thanks for the info! I hope anything I said was not interpreted as negative comments on BT. I appreciate all they are doing. It's a shame this thread took a sour turn and got a little nasty.

NOW, as for my humble opinion.....YES, I would have loved to have had a shot at one of the bottles....BUT, that is just the way it works - Supply, Demand and the Captalist Free Market System. I see no wrong committed by BT or the folks who were fortunate enough to get a bottle or two. Oh well, just my 2 cents!

cowdery
05-14-2006, 15:25
Grant's questions answered:

How many distributors do they have?

I don't know, but at least one per state, so at least 50.

How many retailers do these distributors have?

I don't know.

How many of these 375ml bottles would ever make it to a consumer that walked into a store?

I don't know.

So - what is the purpose of this experimental release? Certainly not to draw any marketing information regarding the quality of the contents of these bottles from the general public or even the informed Bourbon drinking public.

To make a nice profit on what they are able to sell, to generate publicity, to position themselves as a leader and innovator, to create demand for other BT products that are in greater supply, to create demand in advance of future EC releases, to guage reactions to the current EC releases from the limited number of persons able to obtain them, possibly for the purpose of creating future general release products, and maybe some other things that haven't occurred to me yet.

BTW - you said earlier in this thread :

"Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?"

If $45 was too much then - then what's up with the $300 a bottle price question?

There are essentially two ways to deal with a limited edition product, allocation and price. They chose allocation, which made some people unhappy, so I was wondering if they (you) would have liked price better as a way to limit demand. BT could have made a lot more money and the race wouldn't have been to the swift (or, more likely, the connected) but instead to the rich.

BTW cowdery - How many of these bottles do you own?

None, but I did taste them last year at Whiskeyfest Chicago in a public seminar open to anyone with a ticket to Whiskeyfest Chicago.

I don't know what your affiliation is with BT.

I have none.

If you want to know more about who I am and why I feel qualified to make the comments I have made, everything you need to know is on my web site. To get there, just click on my name below.

Have a nice day.

bluesbassdad
05-14-2006, 15:25
. . . Supply, Demand and the Captalist Free Market System.

If only that were so, it might be a big improvement for us consumers of bourbon.

Just think, no product-specific taxation, no market restrictions, no distribution restrictions . . . The mind boggles. In the best of all worlds I might be able to order from Kentucky for shipment to Arizona. Heck, let's go for an international free market, and let overseas StraightBourbonians in on it, too.

No doubt there would be unintended consequences. Would overseas buyers bid up the prices on top shelf products? The prices that exist in, let's say, Japan suggest that possibility.

Would mass market sales increase at the expense of the finer bottlings that many of us hold dear? If U.S. regulations on the product itself were eliminated (we did say "free market", right?) would barrel proof bottlings be reduced in favor of, let's say, 70 proof bottlings?

I like to pretend I'm a libertarian, but on second thought, maybe it's safer to leave things as they are, not that there's really a choice. I guess I'm getting cowardly in my old age.

In any event I'm happy that Buffalo Trace is pushing the envelope in regard to the creation and marketing of new styles of bourbon. I'll be even happier if I live long enough to see some of them on the shelves in Prescott, AZ, USA.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

ProofPositive
05-15-2006, 12:38
I like to pretend I'm a libertarian, but on second thought, maybe it's safer to leave things as they are, not that there's really a choice.

I am with you. No way to make everybody happy all at the same time. So, although not perfect, our system is the best the world has to offer to date.

That being said though, I am glad to be in Tennessee rather than Arizona.....it's easy for me to be fat & happy with the selections I enjoy. Other than Kentucky, it is probably the next-best state in which to be located in terms of bourbon.

OscarV
05-16-2006, 13:24
If these Experimental's are priced at $50.00 per 375ml and everyone is mad at Buffalo Trace,.... then where is the howling for their Pappy Van Winkle 20yo at $100.00 and the 23yo at $200.00 per 750ml?

Oscar

ProofPositive
05-16-2006, 23:15
If these Experimental's are priced at $50.00 per 375ml and everyone is mad at Buffalo Trace,.... then where is the howling for their Pappy Van Winkle 20yo at $100.00 and the 23yo at $200.00 per 750ml?
Oscar

Throughout the thread, it was not always the price. Yes, initially there was reaction that weighed in against price alone. As the response unfolded though, it seems to me that the availability factor joined in and become as much, if not more, important than the price. I think more anger was present due to the fact that many felt they had absolutely zero opportunity to buy any of them.

The sheer numbers of the Van Winkle products you mentioned were released in much greater number than this first or test round of the BT Experimentals. That is not true of the VW bottles. They were/are limited in number but not nearly as much as the BTEC.

Ironically, you use the Van Winkle bottles as an example of what many have and will continue to gladly pay. IMHO, that will be the same with the BTEC bottles as they are produced in larger numbers. This is America......we love to fuss & fume about price - but, once the venting is done we go ahead and pay the price for quality. The old maxim 'you get what you pay for' continues to hold true. Of course, there will be the hardliners who will never pay the premium price......and, they will be the ones who will continue to bluster about it far into the future - both of which they have every right to do.

Now, don't get me wrong - $45-50 is expensive & quite high for me as well to pay for a 375ml bottle of anything.....and, I probably would not buy a bottle for a while. At the same time though, there will be plenty of folks who will pay that price without looking twice and most who do will be some of those who said they never would.

JeffRenner
05-19-2006, 07:38
Chuck listed some reasons that BT might have produced this experimental collection, and then wrote that there were

maybe some other things that haven't occurred to me yet.
It was my impression, perhaps from something Ken Weber wrote here, that part of it was just the chance to have fun. Sort of, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to try ... ?" Just big kids playing in a big sand box.

Hats off to BT for allowing that kind of unleashed creativity with the company dime. I'm happy that it seems to have paid off. I think Ken has implied that there are more surprises aging in the BT rickhouses.

Eventually these kinds of experiments will make it onto the mass market at reasonable prices if they are worthwhile. I think it's kind of like cool, new electronic toys. Does anyone remember the price of a Texas Instruments TI99/4A (http://oldcomputers.net/ti994a.html) or a Commodore 64 (http://oldcomputers.net/c64.html) 25 years ago? Or an Apple IIe (http://oldcomputers.net/appleii.html)? (I do - I paid $1400 for a IIe in 1983 :blush: - that's $1400 in 1983 dollars, and a monitor was extra!)

Jeff

pepcycle
05-19-2006, 10:10
What happens when we get to the little ones

NorCalBoozer
05-19-2006, 10:40
I think Ken has implied that there are more surprises aging in the BT rickhouses.
Jeff

according to this, BT has around 1500 barrels of experiments....

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5295

cowdery
05-19-2006, 14:22
What happens when we get to the little ones

50 ml bottles.

ProofPositive
05-19-2006, 21:34
I got curious today, so contacted the liquor manager for the area distributor which handles BT products directly -- and learned that Middle Tennessee got exactly ONE 12-bottle case (presumably, four of each bourbons), which went to Frugal McDoogal's, a Nashville liquor 'superstore'. A phone call to the store got me absolutely nowhere -- the person I talked to knew nothing about it, and couldn't find it in his database. Not surprising, I guess. It probably went directly to 'best customers' or the store manager's personal collection. Still, I may make a stop in there to question staff face-to-face sometime this week.

Any luck at McDoogal's? Or, have you heard of any surfacing anywhere else in & around Nashville?

Brennan77
05-19-2006, 22:20
Yall are right about the bottles going to special customers and employees. Here in New Orleans we got one case for the store. So far, I'm getting one as an employee, the spirits buyer is getting whatever he wants, and the rest is going to "special" customers. It's a way of saying thank you to good customers and to keep them coming back for the expensive and hard to get items. This is very common in the wine industry. For example, we just got allocations of Turley Zinfandel, which is hard to come by but not terribly expensive at list prices. These bottles never hit the shelves. They are used as a form of currency to please the good customers.

ProofPositive
05-21-2006, 00:39
Local rumor has it that a case or perhaps even two has arrived in town. Now, if I can find out where! If only 1 case is coming into the Nashville area, I find it hard to believe more than 1 is coming into the Memphis area. We have 2 large retailers here who have very close ties to BT as I understand it. If anyone here gets any, it will be one or both of them.

BourbonSteve
05-22-2006, 10:49
I should have my 3 bottles by the end of the month, I'll let y'all know how they taste! And to think, only 9 hoops to jump through to get them........

SBOmarc
05-22-2006, 11:40
Had never even been informed of this release. Although that did not surprise me, he is intrigued enough to call his Distributor and at least find out what if anything is possible.

Grant
05-28-2006, 15:55
Grant's questions answered:

How many distributors do they have?

I don't know, but at least one per state, so at least 50.

How many retailers do these distributors have?

I don't know.

How many of these 375ml bottles would ever make it to a consumer that walked into a store?

I don't know.

So - what is the purpose of this experimental release? Certainly not to draw any marketing information regarding the quality of the contents of these bottles from the general public or even the informed Bourbon drinking public.

To make a nice profit on what they are able to sell, to generate publicity, to position themselves as a leader and innovator, to create demand for other BT products that are in greater supply, to create demand in advance of future EC releases, to guage reactions to the current EC releases from the limited number of persons able to obtain them, possibly for the purpose of creating future general release products, and maybe some other things that haven't occurred to me yet.

BTW - you said earlier in this thread :

"Now that the cat is entirely out of the bag on this, how many of you are looking forward to paying $45 for a 375 ml bottle of "experimental" whiskey?"

If $45 was too much then - then what's up with the $300 a bottle price question?

There are essentially two ways to deal with a limited edition product, allocation and price. They chose allocation, which made some people unhappy, so I was wondering if they (you) would have liked price better as a way to limit demand. BT could have made a lot more money and the race wouldn't have been to the swift (or, more likely, the connected) but instead to the rich.

BTW cowdery - How many of these bottles do you own?

None, but I did taste them last year at Whiskeyfest Chicago in a public seminar open to anyone with a ticket to Whiskeyfest Chicago.

I don't know what your affiliation is with BT.

I have none.

If you want to know more about who I am and why I feel qualified to make the comments I have made, everything you need to know is on my web site. To get there, just click on my name below.

Have a nice day.

cowdery:

I believe that you have trashed the context of my original questions - and provided in <my> opinion - answers that remind me of a former president that could not determine the meaning of "is".

As you suggested - I did go to your web site.

Before I respond any further - I was informed by someone that you may be a lawyer.

Please confirm or deny as to whether or not you are a lawyer - and if so - as to what type of law you practice.

Please forgive me if I am wrong - but I believe that this is pertinent to my future discussions within the forum.

BTW - I am not a lawyer. I spend a lot of time writing computer programs. I don't spend alot of time trying to market the truth - as my perspective is at the true or false level. If you ask me a question - I'll do my best to answer the question you asked - in the same context that it was asked.


Remember the 449th!

http://norfield-publishing.com/449th/449site.html

Grant

TNbourbon
05-28-2006, 16:04
...If you ask me a question - I'll do my best to answer the question you asked - in the same context that it was asked...
Grant

Ah, context -- a good point! Might I suggest you try to ascertain what the context is before you imply aspersions, especially toward a long-standing SB.com stalwart and professional whiskey writer. In fact, those two facts ARE context here.
You don't have to agree with everything -- or anything, for that matter -- that is written here. But it behooves you to be civil -- and to acknowledge the mere possibility that others' opinions are well-grounded.

Grant
05-28-2006, 16:38
Ah, context -- a good point! Might I suggest you try to ascertain what the context is before you imply aspersions, especially toward a long-standing SB.com stalwart and professional whiskey writer. In fact, those two facts ARE context here.
You don't have to agree with everything -- or anything, for that matter -- that is written here. But it behooves you to be civil -- and to acknowledge the mere possibility that others' opinions are well-grounded.

I do believe that I am being civil. I understand that there are those that will not appreciate me asking questions of those that are held in such high regard by many.

Does that mean that Chuck can't respond to my questions?

cowdery
05-28-2006, 16:58
cowdery:

I believe that you have trashed the context of my original questions - and provided in <my> opinion - answers that remind me of a former president that could not determine the meaning of "is".

As you suggested - I did go to your web site.

Before I respond any further - I was informed by someone that you may be a lawyer.

Please confirm or deny as to whether or not you are a lawyer - and if so - as to what type of law you practice.

Please forgive me if I am wrong - but I believe that this is pertinent to my future discussions within the forum.

BTW - I am not a lawyer. I spend a lot of time writing computer programs. I don't spend alot of time trying to market the truth - as my perspective is at the true or false level. If you ask me a question - I'll do my best to answer the question you asked - in the same context that it was asked.


Remember the 449th!

http://norfield-publishing.com/449th/449site.html

Grant

I am a non-practicing attorney and a member of the Illinois bar.

I have a pretty thick skin but this has gotten ridiculous. Unlike President Clinton, I am not under oath nor does my inquisitor have any standing of which I am aware. Therefore, I will not participate in this pointless exchange any further.

Thank you to all who have jumped into this on my behalf. Let's consider it closed.

Grant
05-28-2006, 17:24
I am a non-practicing attorney and a member of the Illinois bar.

I have a pretty thick skin but this has gotten ridiculous. Unlike President Clinton, I am not under oath nor does my inquisitor have any standing of which I am aware. Therefore, I will not participate in this pointless exchange any further.

Thank you to all who have jumped into this on my behalf. Let's consider it closed.

Thanks for the quick response. I appreciate your candor.

Within this forum - we all have equal standing.

I agree - this has become pointless.

Grant
05-28-2006, 17:45
Think of all the good whiskey bottles you can get for that price! At the moment Im enjoying brilliant stuff from all over the world (well, almost!) including my recent brilliant E.T. Lee, Blantons STFB, Stagg and even my newly acquired RHF has shaped up a bit even if I still regard it as a minor disappointment. Hey, I even managed to find a bottle of AAA 10yo (in Denmark, of all places!)

Dave and Roger,

Do I understand you right here, i.e. that you are advocating self-censorhip? I hope Im wrong but if not I think you should ask yourself what constitues a true friend.

From my experience, the ones who are always nice to you are, more often than not, the same people who talk badly about you behind your back.

A true friend, on the other hand, praises and encourages you when it is deserved and, at the same time, dares to criticize you when it is called for.

I cannot in my wildest dreams think that anyone from BT who stops by at this forum would dismiss SB.com members as "enemies" just because of one complaint.

A community that chokes on its own over-friendliness is not a good thing in my book. To me it is an invitation to dullness and complacency.

Hey, even the head honcho himself, Jim, is prone to the odd venom spitting and I like him all the better for it! :)

A forum is by definition a place for open discussion or expression of ideas.

bluesbassdad
05-28-2006, 20:06
Let's consider it closed.

Dang it, Chuck! I was already heating the tar by the time I reached your sensible post. Don't ask about the condition of my pillows. :grin:

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Frodo
05-29-2006, 03:38
Before I respond any further - I was informed by someone that you may be a lawyer.

Please confirm or deny as to whether or not you are a lawyer - and if so - as to what type of law you practice.

Please forgive me if I am wrong - but I believe that this is pertinent to my future discussions within the forum.

How? Why? I've always found Mr Cowdery's posts to be enlightening and on point. I've never felt threatened or disrespected by the content of his posts. I'm not sure what someone else's profession has to do with one's future willingness to engage in civil discussions?

Grant
05-29-2006, 04:59
How? Why? I've always found Mr Cowdery's posts to be enlightening and on point. I've never felt threatened or disrespected by the content of his posts. I'm not sure what someone else's profession has to do with one's future willingness to engage in civil discussions?

I find it acceptable to ask what his profession is - as he eluded to mine in a previous post in this thread.

As far as relevance goes - as you may recall - President Clinton was a lawyer too.

At the risk of being tarred and feathered - I too would like to drop this argument. Please post anything further to me privately.

Hedmans Brorsa
05-29-2006, 06:26
Let it be known that my post had nothing to do with the Chuck vs. Grant argument.

It was more an attempt from my side to bring up to discussion the need for a forum to be able to criticize a distillery in a constructive manner, in order to keep the vitality of said forum alive.

In no way did I wish to condone attacks on SB.com members.

OscarV
05-29-2006, 13:26
Quote " - President Clinton was a lawyer too."


I know this is off subject, but I get nostalgic when anyone mentions President Clinton. I miss those eight years of peace and prosperity.

Oscar:grin:

jbutler
05-30-2006, 09:39
I believe this thread has run it's course.