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**DONOTDELETE**
07-14-2000, 09:43
These two messages (along with the one from me posted below them) first appeared in the General Bourbon Topics forum before this one was created. Thanks, Jim, for setting aside space for Tennessee Whiskey. In order to keep the thread coherent, I'm copying them here as a "starter". Or maybe you can think of it as a sort of verbal "setback" for the sour mash discussion :-)

The subject was opened by CHRIS...

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Posted by Chris
Posted on 7/13/00 12:32 PM
From IP 32.102.23.246

I know its not a bourbon, but, I would like some feedback concerning the Dickel ten yr. On the subject of another TN whisky, does anyone know the what the difference is
between the green label Jack Daniels and the regular Black Jack?? I hope you guys don't get bent out of shape with my TN whisky post...I am a novice, exploring the wide
world of whisky...thanks!!

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Followed by...

Subject Re: Dickel 10 yr.
Posted by RyanStotz
Posted on 7/13/00 2:07 PM
From IP 206.231.73.16


> I know its not a bourbon, but, I would like some feedback concerning the
> Dickel ten yr.

The least of the line by far, IMO. Too much on the sweet side, with not enough of the charcoal that makes the others, especially the #12, so great. And for the price, too,
it's just ridiculous.

> On the subject of another TN whisky, does anyone know the what the difference
> is between the green label Jack Daniels and the regular Black Jack??

About a year or two, IIRC, with the green being the younger. I prefer the black, as do most I think.

> I hope you guys don't get bent out of shape with my TN whisky post...I am a
> novice, exploring the wide world of whisky...thanks!!

Give 'em hell. I love the TN stuff. Only wish there were more of it available so it'd justify more discussion.

Stotz

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My reply to this follows. Okay everyone, let's hear it for the fine state of Volunteers!

-John Lipman-
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

**DONOTDELETE**
07-14-2000, 09:45
Funny you should mention that, Chris. I just answered another post and raved about Jack Daniel's Single Barrel. It's an outstanding product that has the distinction (IMHO)
of being the only JD offering that surpasses the George Dickel whiskies. I feel that Dickel #8 and #12 are overwhelmingly superior to their Jack Daniel counterparts, Green
Label and Black Label. The 10-year-old Special Reserve is really great, and was (of course) my absolute favorite Tennessee whiskey and also one of my favorite American
whiskies, period... until I tasted JD Single Barrel. It's still ONE of my favorites, but the Jack Daniel product gets the edge.

By the way, now that the brands that once constituted the United Distillers' Bourbon Heritage Collection have all passed into different hands, you might want to grab
whatever bottles of Dickel Special Reserve you can find. The whiskey may still be available, under a new label, but the Bourbon Heritage Collection probably won't be.

As for the difference between Jack Daniel Black and Green, the only real difference is the proof. According to folks at Jack Daniel, there isn't any difference in the mash bill
(proportions of corn, malt, and rye), nor the age (everything's about 5 - 7 years old there). It's just the proof. The Jack Daniel black label has been cited as one of the most
well-known brand logos in the world, but you can thank Lem Motlow for that; Jack Daniel never saw it. The whiskey he produced wore the green label. Lem bottled a
special, higher proof, version with the black label to honor Jack Daniel after he died in 1911. That's the one that became world-popular. Did you know that the green label is
only sold in a few states? Also, Jack Daniel USED to be 90 proof, not 86. It's still 90 proof in foreign countries. This year, you can get special Millenium 2000 bottlings of
Jack Daniel at 90 proof here in the states. Now you wouldn't think a lousy 4 proof (2%) would make much difference, would you? But it really does. That bottling of Jack
Daniel's is really very good... but still not as good as Dickel #12 (also 90 proof -- all the time).

Thanks for opening up the topic of Tennessee Whiskey. Maybe Jim will put this out as a separate discussion. I've always been fascintated with why the whiskey industry
never resurfaced in Tennessee after Prohibition. Did you know that there were over 700 registered distilleries in Tennessee at the beginning of the 20th century? (by the
way, according the the Midas Financial Index Directory for 1911 - copyright 1910, just prior to Tennessee prohibition, Jack Daniel was registered as # 514, not # 1 as they
proudly claim today; the same directory lists George Dickel as # 392). The entire definition of Tennessee Whiskey is based on the testimony of Reagor Motlow to the
Internal Revenue Service in 1941, and at that time his distillery (Jack Daniel) was the ONLY one operating in the state. There are now all of two. It's hard for me to accept
that these two distilleries are the whole story of Tennessee Whiskey. Are there folks lurking out there in this forum who remember other Tennessee whiskey brands and
what they were like? Inquiring minds want to know!

-John Lipman-
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

Chris
07-14-2000, 11:19
Thanks for the great information. Glad to see that they added a Tennessee whiskey forum, too.

**DONOTDELETE**
07-14-2000, 14:34
Just wanted to be a little contrary here and say that I much prefer the green label Jack to the black. That classic liquorice taste is actually pretty unusual, if you think about it, and I don't like it too strong and oily, the way I think it gets with the Black.

I highly recommend Gentleman Jack, by the way -- lighter in body, like the Green, but sweeter and much the better for it.

doug

**DONOTDELETE**
03-28-2001, 09:40
George Dickel of any number or year is no longer availble in Virginia. It disappeared from the shelves around last Christmas. I recall another posting that Dickel's Cascade Distillery has shutdowm until further notice.

Who owns the Dickel now? Are they going to let it go the way of Stitzel-Weller/Bernheim? Are there no great barrels of the stuff laying around waiting for a fancy bottle and a decent marketing plan?

Are there no Bourbonians out there, having grown tired of losing money in the stock market, that have a bit of capital left that wouldn't like to purchase supurb barrels of G. Dickel put it into fancy bottles and market it successfully?

To quote the great Bourbonic philosopher Creggor "Where's the zing?".

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

Speedy_John
03-28-2001, 12:55
What whiskies were part of the Bourbon Heritage Collection? I think Weller Centennial was one, and--I think--VSOFitzgerald. Of course, the Dickel. But what else? I remember seeing several boxed bourbons in my favorite PA state store recently. There seemed to be about five or six different ones in the series. Thanks for the help.

SpeedyJohn

cowdery
03-28-2001, 13:14
The Heritage Collection was:

George Dickel Special Barrel Reserve (10 yr., 86 proof)
Old Charter Proprietor's Reserve (13 yr., 90 proof)
I.W. Harper Gold Medal (15 yr., 80 proof)
W.L. Weller Centennial (10 yr., 100 proof)
Very Special Old Fitzgerald (12 yr., 90 proof)

The BH collection was UDV's response to Jim Beam's Small Batch Collection. I think we can safely refer to it in the past tense, since the brands are now owned by three different companies.


--Chuck Cowdery (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com)

cowdery
03-28-2001, 13:31
When Diageo sold off most of its U.S. whiskies (Fitzgerald, Charter, Weller, etc.) it kept two: I.W. Harper and George Dickel, primarily because both are good sellers outside the U.S. I.W. Harper hasn't had much U.S. presence in 30 years or so, but Dickel did. It seems to be quiescent since the sale, although it's still for sale here. I have a report that the distillery is not operating and not giving tours. Visitors are told it is "temporary" but they aren't told when things will resume. Their web site (www.georgedickel.com (http://www.georgedickel.com)) appears to have been put up in 1999 for a specific promotion and not touched since.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the brand portfolio on the Diageo web site (www.diageo.com (http://www.diageo.com)), neither brand is listed.

--Chuck Cowdery (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com)

**DONOTDELETE**
03-28-2001, 18:51
Scarey, ain't it? And the liquor store owner/managers I know haven't had an order for Special Reserve delivered since before Christmas.

Aren't computerized inventory systems wonderful? With the click of a mouse, a distributor can eliminate a product right before your very eyes. Poof! That brand's ID code is no longer available. Now what's the store owner going to do? He can't sell you that bottle on the shelf... there's no way to ring it up; and state regulators (and tax folks) don't like seeing sales of "miscellaneous" merchandise from liquor stores. His only recourse is to turn it in to the distributor for pennies on the dollar. That's the only explanation I can think of why suddenly no liquor store in three states has a bottle of something they couldn't get rid of before.

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

Speedy_John
03-29-2001, 05:26
Thanks, Chuck, for the info on the Heritage Collection. My fave state store has all five in stock. I've tried the IW Harper and the VSOFitzgerald, and, unfortunately, didn't care much for either of them. I found the Harper to be particularly disappointing. Maybe bottling at a higher proof would have helped, but I doubt it. It had very little flavor development and a short, uneventful finish :-(

SJ

cowdery
03-29-2001, 15:29
If something has been sitting on your shelf for literally years and you can sell it back to the distributor, even for pennies on the dollar, I think you would consider yourself lucky and immediately jump on the chance. Good theory. Does anyone know if it's true? Perhaps they are trying to get Dickel out of the U.S. market, as they did with Harper, to prevent gray market sales to Asia.

--Chuck Cowdery (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com)

**DONOTDELETE**
03-29-2001, 15:35
I was on the team that helped pick the bourbon for the Heritage Collection and I agree with you about Harper. The problem was that at a higher proof it became too woody.

Mike Veach

**DONOTDELETE**
03-29-2001, 15:38
I think the most likely scenario is that U.D. simply decided to quit selling the 10 Year Old Dickel. The Dickel 8 and Dickel 12 are still on the shelves here in Louisville.
Mike Veach

**DONOTDELETE**
03-29-2001, 16:08
The regular Dickel brands appear to be okay in all the places we've checked. I think it's just the Bourbon Heritage Collection that's being phased out. And that's understandable; I mean, we don't expect Ken Weber to be selling Weller Centennial or Max Shapira to offer VSOFitz (at least not as part of the Bourbon Heritage Collection anyway). But Diageo's got to have SOMETHING in mind for all that 10-year-old (and older) Dickel whisky. And since overproduction is (at least the official) reason for shutting the plant down, the remaining stock of regular Dickel is on its way to becoming 10-year-old. I just want to believe that I'll be able to buy this great whisky again; I don't care under what name. Unfortunately, I've seen nothing from Diageo to indicate they have any desire to sell American whisky to Americans. Indeed, their website makes that pretty clear, doesn't it? (Although to be fair, Barton Brands give only barely a little more mention to their bourbons, either). I've written an email to Diageo asking about Dickel and Harper, but have never received an answer.

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

**DONOTDELETE**
03-29-2001, 16:23
John,
I doubt that you will here anthing back on your email. I believe that Dickel will be sold in a few more years after U.D. (now Diago) ruins the brand to the point that it will take a boat load of money to rebuild it. The most likely scenario is that Dickel will just fade away in the next 10 years. After all, it is not a Scotch whisky so at Diago really cares?
Mike Veach

**DONOTDELETE**
03-30-2001, 06:09
This then is a capital opportunity for forward thinking future minded Bourbonians. Find and purchase the sugar barrels. Bottle and brand both a single barrel and a vatted super premium. Almost all of the work has been done. All that is needed is operating capital and marketing savy.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

MashBill
03-30-2001, 18:19
Damn! This is too bad. I really enjoy the 10 year old and think their No. 12 and No. 8 beats Jack Daniels Black and Green.

It's unfortunate that Dickel is foreign controlled, otherwise things might be different. Of course, if Americans would quit spending their money on Scotch (thus sending their money overseas), more American controlled distilleries might be around for us to enjoy.

I hate to see another American distillery slip away into the history books. To me this "tarnishes" our Golden Age of Bourbon theory (yeah I know it's a TN whisky, but technically Dickel is a bourbon). I need a drink .... hey is that George calling? Why yes it is.

Bill
http://home.kc.rr.com/mashbill/

MashBill
03-30-2001, 18:24
Boy, wouldn't it be fun to have the capital to do just that Linn! I've heard of the "Angels Share" when refering to the loss that occurs during aging, but if I was involved in the bottling we'd have to contend with the "Devil's Share" /wwwthreads/images/wink.gif.

Bill
http://home.kc.rr.com/mashbill/

**DONOTDELETE**
03-31-2001, 05:30
Bill we'd have make a barrel selection survey of the existing stock. This would take quite some time. The Devil would get his due. Then we'd vat and proof and bottle and label and sell. Then we could: a) reinvest our profits and do it again, b) take our money and walk away, or c) file for bankruptcy.

How much capital would we need to come up with? If we had 25 Bourbonians with say 2 grand a piece to throw in would this not be enough?

Think positive. Live Large. It can be done.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
03-31-2001, 05:39
Hello Bill?? George here. Look all those Brits are doing is putting good hard working Americans out of work, and by destroying fine old bourbon brands and shuting down American distilleries they lessen compitition on the world wide whiskey markets. Do these turds bare a grudge or what? I think it's high time we taught those Limeys another lesson. It seems they're oh so forgetful! Did I hear someone say "Loch 'n' Load"?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
03-31-2001, 08:12
Linn, "...The Devil would get his due. Then we'd vat and proof and bottle and label and sell. "

Uh, I don't think you understand what Bill's saying. I do. Yup, once us devils get our dues, there ain't gonna be enough left to moisten the labels. http://www.straightbourbon.com/wwwthreads/images/smile.gif

"...If we had 25 Bourbonians with say 2 grand a piece to throw in would this not be enough?"

Sounds like a plan. I'll be treasurer. Can I count on your two grand right away to start us all off?

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

cowdery
03-31-2001, 13:33
Regardless of what Diageo plans to do with its aging Dickel, (and if you have an aging Dickel you know how painful that can be) the fact is that there is plenty of bulk bourbon available for anyone who wants to create their own brand. As a person who has worked in the booze marketing biz, anyone who wants to undertake that will have all my moral support and probably some of my business, but no investment, thank you very much. It's a hard way to make money.

On the other hand, groups like the Single Malt Whiskey Society started out as genuine "clubs," acquiring bulk whiskey and bottling it for the enjoyment of their own members. No retail distribution involved.

I'm not enthusiastic about starting a brand because I'm pretty happy with the selection available to me as it is.

--Chuck Cowdery (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com)

**DONOTDELETE**
04-01-2001, 06:22
Bill do you really think you can drink Cascade Hollow dry?!

John I'll bring my double grand down when we make the deal for the barrels, and then make the barrel selection. While you won't be permitted to participate in the actual selection of the barrels you would be required to lick all of the labels.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-01-2001, 06:53
Diageo has already succeeded in ruining the brand name (have you noticed how very good they are at that?) and now Cascade Hollow will fade into obscurity just like Michter's. Jolly Good Fun! What?

Yes even if the stock market hasn't yet made a bottom you could much more easily make far more mony with much less downside risk just by investing in the S&P 500.

The idea of a bourbon club has intrigued me for quite some time. I've always been interseted in being able to increase my purchasing power and buy more bourbon more cheaply. There are several ways to achive this end, and Creggor and have discussed this very issue.

1) I believe it was Pary Source that offered him an additional 5% discount on a large purchase. Those of us that attend the festival may want to make that trip and pick up our bourbon there.

2) We could go in together on the puchase of a barrel of Blanton's/Elmer T. Lee at Buffalo Trace. I'm sure we could get a better price if we took it in plain 1.75 l. bottles rather than fancy and expensive packaging.

3) ditto that for L&G's Woodford Reserve.

4) We might be able to strike a private deal with Julian for some number of his bottlings.

5) ditto that for Charles Medley and his excellent Walthen's.

Now this is a game worth playing!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-01-2001, 08:47
Speedy,

Do, by all means, grab a bottle of the 13 year old Old Charter Propriter's Reserve! It's superb in every way. I only wish it were still available here in Virginia.

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-01-2001, 13:48
"John I'll bring my double grand down when we make the deal for the barrels, and then make the barrel selection."

I think we'd better have our funds together and on-hand before we start negotiating for a price on those barrels.
And there's a few other considerations that ought to be discussed if we're serious about this thing...

(1) Two grand is just about $1,938 more George Dickel Special Reserve than I ever expect to want. Assuming that others in the Straightbourbon forum have similar requirements, there is going to be one hell of lot of leftover 10-year-old Tennessee Whisky (or Whisk<u>e</u>y... it won't be Dickel, so we don't need to honor that silly spelling quirk). So I suspect this isn't going to be the sort of "club purchase" Chuck mentioned; we're going to have <u>a lot</u> of Tennesse whiskey left over and if we're ever going to get our investment out of it we're going to have to become a full-fledged bottler, not unlike Mr. Van Winkle. I'm sure Julian can advise us on how simple and inexpensive a process THAT can be; and his experience is that of the son of a very influential Louisville Kentucky bourbon family. I'd bet that the Spencers of Virginia, or the Lipmans of Ohio, the Legges of Kansas, or the Cowderys of Illinois would find it far more difficult and expensive. That $2,000 would be barely a drop in the barrel.

(2) Dickel 10-year-old Special Reserve wasn't exactly burning down the retailers' shelves anyway. I really enjoy it, and consider it an outstanding whisky, but I don't recall that the other whiskies were being threatened by crowds of customers trying to get at the Dickel.

(3) The Special Reserve, good as it is, still bears the distinction of being the only George Dickel product that is NOT better than its Jack Daniel counterpart (single barrel in JD's case)...

(4) ...Which brings up a very important point. Namely, that Dickel 10-year-old Special Reserve is NOT a single barrel whisky. So there aren't going to BE any "sugar barrels". In fact, there aren't even going to be any GOOD barrels. Like Wild Turkey's Rare Breed, Special Reserve is a mixture of many barrels, each with it's own unbalanced characteristics. And we're likely to need a LOT of them. If I remember correctly, Jimmy Russell uses ONLY 100 barrels per run for Rare Breed, which is considered an extremely small number for mixing. His ability to mix a first-class product with that few barrels is part of why he's a legend among his fellow distillers. I have no idea how many barrels Dave Backus uses in his mix, but it's not likely to be less than that. I don't know what prime Tennessee whiskey wholesales for, either, but if it goes for $3600/barrel (about half retail; you didn't think you were going to get it for cost, did you?), and if you could match Jimmy Russell's minimum requirements, you could get away with as little as $360,000. I think we'd better scare up a few more Straightbourbonheads than 25, don't you?

Oh yeah, and just WHICH barrels were we going to select? Knowing which barrels to select, and how many of each age and type, for such a mix is what being a master distiller is all about. I don't know about you, but I'm sure reluctant to put $2,000 on the line to back up your (or my, or Chuck's, Mike's, etc.) mastery of bourbon mixing...

(5) ...Unless you can convice Julian that he wants to add a line of Tennessee whiskey. He's a Straightbourbonhead; and NOBODY's better at picking or mixing than Julian. Of course, His current line is based on his family's involvement in the world of Kentucky whiskey, and I doubt that there's any connection at all with Tennessee whisky (except that Dickel was made at Stitzel/Weller for awhile during Prohibition). And, since we wouldn't be able to call our new product "George Dickel" or "Cascade", we'd have to "resurrect" a third old Tennessee distillery name (and pay for it), or make one up from scratch. You might want to get some feedback from Jim Razzino on this aspect, as that's pretty much what he's done with Thedford. He bought some existing stock of whiskey that isn't otherwise available to his intended customer base, bottled the product, and is marketing it under a fictitious but compositely-plausible name and history. And if we DON'T do something like that with our Special Reserve, we'll probably fail to sell any of it.

"...While you won't be permitted to participate in the actual selection of the barrels you would be required to lick all of the labels."

Well, as treasurer and holder of all the funds, I think I'd be the one to decide who'll do the pickin' and who'll do the lickin'. But we'll make sure you have plenty of good ol' limestone water to drink and keep your tongue moist. http://www.straightbourbon.com/wwwthreads/images/smile.gif

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

**DONOTDELETE**
04-14-2001, 15:28
John the point is moot, however you are wrong in many of your assumptions.

Fist you simply do not understand the nature of a single purpose limited partnership, or the many ways in which it might be structured. I must, however, smile at your childish attempt to take control of something that as of yet dosen't exist. You remind me of the little boy that can't stand to loose and must, by all costs win, and therefore change the rules of the game in midstream. We adults call this "dirty pool".

You keep on harping about the 10 y.o. botling of Dickle Reserve, and you further assert that there aren't any good/ sugar barrels. None at all?! Then this must mean that you've tasted every barrel and know for a fact that the whiskey is no good. Here's fact for you're ass - You're full of shit!

Those of us who know John personally know that he is nothing if not egotistical. His shirt is stuffed with so much hot air and pomposity.

The rest of his diatribe goes on and on in a never ending installment of "How to say little or nothing at all" in 500 words or more.

The thing that bothers me most here John is that you are talking down your nose at both me and any forum reader. Your codescending attitude is malicious and I take graet umbrage to your insults and demand an apology!

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. /wwwthreads/images/smile.gif Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-16-2001, 04:34
Well, folks, it appears Mr. Spencer, in his own inimitable (I sincerely hope) way, is again teaching us all a couple of valuable lessons. They are...

(1) When exploring the wonders of bourbon (or Tennessee) whiskey, it's a good idea to know when to stop.
And
(2) If you happen to miss lesson #1... For Criminy sakes, DON'T answer messages, especially ones you think were meant to offend you!

Linn, despite occasional personal attacks (which indeed do make it hard NOT to feel condescending toward you), I highly respect your writing talent. I do NOT respect your constant solicitations for investment in one scheme or another, and my comments about your idea to corner the market on old George Dickel stock were offered semi-humorously (but still true). I'm sorry you felt personally offended (and I'm also sorry that Chinese pilot was lost), but it wasn't really about you, it was about an idea that (I believe) sucked big-time. I don't think the readers here (or you either, in less inebriated times) appreciate the name-calling and generally low-class tone of your message, and I implore new readers not to hastily judge your valuable contributions by what they've read here.

Pompously and egotistically yours,

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey