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View Full Version : Pappy Van Winkle 30yr old.....????



BarItemsPlus1
02-12-2006, 14:13
On my usual search for available bourbons, I have come across a place that has listed on their 'drinks' menu Pappy Van Winkle 30yr old :skep:
Anyone know anything about this??? I am trying to find the place again so when I do I will post the link.

Cheers!!

ProofPositive
02-12-2006, 14:49
Anyone know anything about this??? I am trying to find the place again so when I do I will post the link.
Cheers!!

I have not heard of it.....but there have been stranger things turn up in this world.

When/If you do find the place and it is for real, let me know. It won't take me long to pack a bag and get to the airport!

Virus_Of_Life
02-12-2006, 14:50
I have never heard anything about that, their website oldripvanwinkle.com does not list it and for that matter I've never heard of ANY bourbon being aged anywhere near 30 years! I think it is boloney, a misprint perhaps supposed to be 20 year...

BarItemsPlus1
02-12-2006, 14:51
I am sceptical about this though......

barturtle
02-12-2006, 16:41
IIRC Julian has said that he has never tasted his whiskey at an age any older than 23yo. I seriously doubt he would put out a product with tasting it first. Most likely a typo.

Brennan77
02-12-2006, 16:54
IIRC Julian has said that he has never tasted his whiskey at an age any older than 23yo. I seriously doubt he would put out a product with tasting it first. Most likely a typo.

This brings up a question I was asked the other day when showing off my bottle of PVW23. My friend asked, "well, why not longer?". Can the whisky just not take any more aging? Has it reached its absolute peak, or have they just not tried any longer?

BarItemsPlus1
02-12-2006, 18:19
Has it reached its absolute peak, or have they just not tried any longer?

Brennan absolutly not!! The reason is due to the age of bourbon as a whiskey, meaning bourbon hasn't been able to be kept for this long, ie. supply/demand.
There may be some casks hiding in a wharehouse somewhere that are older than 23yrs but I really wouldn't know this for sure, I think it would be highly unlikely.

Actually come to think of it....I know that there is a bottle of 'Classic Cask' 35yr old whiskey, don't know if it's bourbon or whiskey though??
Also I was just wondering, and someone here may be able to cladify, when the age is stated as with 'Scotch' are their indeed older whiskies that go into a bottling of for example PVW 23yr?? -As the age statement on scotch is the youngest whisky in the blend/vatting.

TNbourbon
02-12-2006, 18:25
You're referring to, I believe, Bourbon Bar in Washington D.C. It has been called to Julian's attention. He has refuted its existence, and stated he would contact the bar management. Either the bar employed an overzealous (and/or ignorant) copywriter, or they're lying bastards:smiley_acbt: . If it's the latter, I think $150 a drink might constitute fraud.

barturtle
02-12-2006, 18:36
Also I was just wondering, and someone here may be able to cladify, when the age is stated as with 'Scotch' are their indeed older whiskies that go into a bottling of for example PVW 23yr?? -As the age statement on scotch is the youngest whisky in the blend/vatting.

As with scotch, the age statement is the youngest whiskey in the bottle. However, Julian has stated that the most recent batch had just barely reached its 23rd birthday, and I suspect that the previous batches would have been quite close that as well.

RedVette
02-12-2006, 18:48
You're referring to, I believe, Bourbon Bar in Washington D.C. It has been called to Julian's attention. He has refuted its existence, and stated he would contact the bar management. Either the bar employed an overzealous (and/or ignorant) copywriter, or they're lying bastards:smiley_acbt: . If it's the latter, I think $150 a drink might constitute fraud.

It's places like this (http://www.bourbondc.com/bourbon-drinks.pdf) that have trained me to always ask "how much is?" for any exotic drink. Sometimes I get nasty looks from the beertender, but I want to know if I am about to be leaned over a barrell. I thought that the $36 I paid for a shot of Pappy 23 was high, but $90 is highway robbery. On the flip side they say they have ORVW 107/15 for $9 a shot, a relative bargain.

boone
02-12-2006, 18:50
As with scotch, the age statement is the youngest whiskey in the bottle. However, Julian has stated that the most recent batch had just barely reached its 23rd birthday, and I suspect that the previous batches would have been quite close that as well.

Bourbon...If the label states 10 years old...the bourbon in that bottle cannot be "younger" than ten years old.

You can add bourbon that is aged "older" than the age statement...but never under.

JeffRenner
02-12-2006, 19:56
This brings up a question I was asked the other day when showing off my bottle of PVW23. My friend asked, "well, why not longer?". Can the whisky just not take any more aging? Has it reached its absolute peak, or have they just not tried any longer?
I think there are two reasons - well three if you include the cost of keeping inventory that long.

First, the longer the whiskey ages, the less there is due to evaporation - the so-called "angel's share." I think that someone posted how little there was in the 23yo barrels - maybe less than 1/4?

And then, yes, you can get too much woody, dry, tannic, bitter flavors from the wood. Since American straight whiskeys (other than corn) are aged in new oak, they cannot be kept in the barrel as long as scotch is, which is aged in used oak.

Occasionally you will read a review of a whiskey that has been kept too long in the barrel, at least in the opinion of the reviewer. Recently, Chuck Cowdery wrote (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54819&postcount=24)


Last year at WhiskeyFest Chicago, Dave Pickerell did a presentation (he's the distiller at Maker's) in which one of the things he gave us to taste was Maker's at, I think, ten years old. Maybe it was twelve.

Whatever it is, they are right not to sell it. If you doubt that 'older is not always better,' this will convince you. ... It was bitter.
Aside from the US-marketed Van Winkle products, it has been primarily the Japanese that favored decades-old bourbons. HH has provided most of them, I think.

Jeff

BarItemsPlus1
02-12-2006, 20:15
Good work Redvette!! So they are full of :shithappens:
Well I'm glad I brought it to everyones attention, and I hope Julian pulls their supply!!
Cheers all!!

cowdery
02-12-2006, 20:36
I met the guys who run Bourbon Bar the last time I was in Bardstown. They're nice, young guys and very enthusiastic about the subject, though they are just learning their way. I'm prepared to believe it was an honest mistake.

As for anything older than Pappy 23, HH has a 25-year-old they sell in Japan.

The thing about these very old bourbons--and 23-25 years is very, very old for a bourbon--is that they have to be almost artifically retarded to get that old without becoming too woody and, even more than woody, acrid and sooty. I characterize them as tasting the way you smell after you've been camping for a week.

ProofPositive
02-12-2006, 21:07
I characterize them as tasting the way you smell after you've been camping for a week.

Aside from the US-marketed Van Winkle products, it has been primarily the Japanese that favored decades-old bourbons. HH has provided most of them, I think
-Jeff

Maybe they have no camping in Japan. They may not know the taste is the same as how we smell after a week in the outdoors.

Wayne

AVB
02-15-2006, 17:24
There was an HH 29 yo in Japan that I had years ago and there are a few 25 yo bourbons over there at the moment.

Re: Angel's share is estimated at 1.75-2% per year for scotch. Some have to be much less based on a few of the single casks I have which are 30+ years old and still have bottle numbers in the 180's. out of 240 or so.

BarItemsPlus1
02-15-2006, 17:38
I would be interested in tasting these older bourbons, but it seems by the tasting notes left here that bourbon becomes more 'harsh'(for lack of a better word) than what scotch does.
I have found in general that the older the scotch the EASIER it goes down....
Ok, what I will do is do a side by side of a scotch and bourbon at same Alc/Vol and age and take notes, more focusing on the 'throat burn' and over woody flavours....

camduncan
02-15-2006, 17:40
Apparently there are still some Pappy 20yo bottles in Australia....
I'm not sure if this is old enough for you though?
But at $400 each, it may be cheaper to import one from Binnys (even when you do pay Govt taxes to Customs)

BarItemsPlus1
02-15-2006, 18:22
But at $400 each.......

Thanks Cam but for that price Bar Items can order in 3 nearly 4 bottles... and I am a little under that price above with my prices also....

Here is what I will start my sampling with, just have to find a partner for the PVW 20yr....??

AVB
02-15-2006, 19:45
Troy, I did do a review of one of the older Japanese only bourbons awhile back. You can read it here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4004&highlight=Martin+Mills) if you wish.

BarItemsPlus1
02-15-2006, 23:24
Cheers...thanks for that!!

Do you have notes on the EW23 yr old??

camduncan
02-15-2006, 23:49
I'm sure there used to be tasting notes on it in the Premium Bourbon forum.... but I can't find them anymore :(

PFC
02-16-2006, 01:44
Here are some tastingnotes for EW23: http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2248&highlight=Evan+Williams+23
The last couple of days I have tasted EW23 side by side with Vintage 1976 (25 Yrs old) and EC18. It's easy to detect the kinship between EW23 and EC18, the Vintage 1976 is a completely different story. It has been speculated that this might be Willett-whiskey. I wouldn't be able to tell since I don't have anything to compare with, but I would be really surprised if it originated from HH. As far as taste is concerned my vote goes to EW23. It seems as if the Single Barrel EC18 varies a lot, and my bottle seems to be one that should bave been bottled a couple of years earlier. The nose is really nice but the finnish is extremely tannic and bitter. The EW23 is far superior, very balanced and very potent. A bit like a 40 Year old cognac on steroids...
As other have stated the Vintage 1976 is amazingly fruity for its age. I like it a lot, but compared to the EW23 it appears a bit bleak.

/Mats

AVB
02-16-2006, 05:55
I did a less formal review of it here (http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11175). Oddly enough I also was smoking an RyJ just as SSbourbon1 did in his review.

Hedmans Brorsa
02-16-2006, 09:21
Yes, the Vintage 1976 is surprisingly potent for its age but to me it is mainly interesting as a specimen.

After a lengthy break I tried it two days ago together with JD single barrel and my most recent Bourbon acquisition, Ridgemont reserve. Even though pleasant, the VB was easily outclassed by its young rivals, both younger than 10 years.

What I have most against older whiskies, excess oakiness apart, is how they lose their whiskey character. Many years ago I read, don´t remember where, that when whisky reached 30 years of age, in most cases it became Cognacified. This theory was empirically verified by letting experts do blindtastings including really old whiskies and Cognacs of similar age. Apparently, these experts were unable to differ between the whiskies and cognacs. I cannot say that I´m surprised.



the finnish is extremely tannic and bitter.
/Mats

Well, some might be. Many Finns I have met, though, have been easy, outgoing personalities. Your view is somewhat stereotyped, I think. Could cause a diplomatic crisis with our neighbour in the east, y´know. :p

PFC
02-16-2006, 13:43
Apparently, these experts were unable to differ between the whiskies and cognacs. I cannot say that I´m surprised.

Me neither. I am of course very fond of aged cognacs, so there's the connection. Two of my all time favourite spirits are Delamain Vesper and Pierre Ferrand Abel.



Well, some might be. Many Finns I have met, though, have been easy, outgoing personalities. Your view is somewhat stereotyped, I think. Could cause a diplomatic crisis with our neighbour in the east, y´know. :p

LOL... well I haven't seen any Finns sneeking around this board so I might get away with it this time. Anyway, I have never heard anyone call Finns tannic before, so it really doesn't fit the definition of a stereotype, does it?:p

I do however agree with you on JDSB. I have the Silver Select version and it is pure candy.

/Mats

Hedmans Brorsa
02-17-2006, 02:09
Anyway, I have never heard anyone call Finns tannic before, so it really doesn't fit the definition of a stereotype, does it?:p/Mats

Touché! :)

Virus_Of_Life
02-18-2006, 21:10
It's places like this (http://www.bourbondc.com/bourbon-drinks.pdf) that have trained me to always ask "how much is?" for any exotic drink. Sometimes I get nasty looks from the beertender, but I want to know if I am about to be leaned over a barrell. I thought that the $36 I paid for a shot of Pappy 23 was high, but $90 is highway robbery. On the flip side they say they have ORVW 107/15 for $9 a shot, a relative bargain.

I cannot believe some place is selling something as Pappy 30 yo and charging that price for it!!! Absurd! You know there are some rich business men who probably drink it and then brag to their friends about it drink $150 bourbon...

And Man would I love to have a bottle of that EW 23 yo!! Looks nice.

whiskeymaven
04-25-2006, 13:09
The evaporation loss would be incredible for a bourbon claiming to be 30 years old. The recent George T. Stagg stat sheet showed something like 56% of the original whiskey was lost to evaporation, and that's only 15 years old. I highly doubt a whiskey could last to a point of quality after 30 hot summers. That's not saying there isn't some 30 year old in the 23, it's just saying it probably couldn't stand on it's own.

AVB
04-25-2006, 13:52
Heaven Hill put out a 28 yo in Japan. I had some and while it wasn't the best I've ever drank it did hold up pretty well. I'm sure there is some 30 yo or more in somebodys rickhouse somewhere.

ThomasH
04-25-2006, 19:02
I toured Buffalo Trace 2 weeks ago and according to their people, after about 20 years in the barrel, evaporation starts to greatly accelerate due to the fact that the barrels and bung plugs are considerably dried out and the percentage of water content left in the barrel is negligible. They said that in the past year, more than one barrel destined for use in the Pappy 23 brand has turned up completely evaporated with only loose char and dust in the barrel.

Thomas

pepcycle
04-26-2006, 17:11
Just add water.
How handy would that be.

elkdoggydog
04-26-2006, 20:24
So can someone explain to me how Scotch is able to age for so long? Do they move it to another barrel, or is the char a factor in the deterioration of bourbon barrels?
I probably should know this already.

monte
04-26-2006, 20:38
So can someone explain to me how Scotch is able to age for so long? Do they move it to another barrel, or is the char a factor in the deterioration of bourbon barrels?
I probably should know this already.

I'm not an expert, but I think two factors are at work here. One is that the climate in Scotland is very different from Kentucky, and for whatever reason, a barrel in a warehouse in Scotland will slowly go down in proof over time while a barrel in a rickhouse in KY will slowly go up in proof over time. Most bourbon rickhouses are designed to have significant seasonal climate changes and are also designed to have good ventilation, so bourbon seems to age more quickly in KY than in Scotland.

The other factor is that bourbon is aged in new charred white oak barrels, which are supposedly more porous, while scotch is aged in used barrels (often barrels previously used for bourbon), which are often less porous. So, again, bourbon ages more quickly than scotch.

My personal preference is for bourbon between 8 and 12 years, but if the barrels were moved to a cooler spot in the rickhouse after some intial aging, they can last until about 15-20 years and still produce great whiskey. I also happen to like scotch between 10 and 15 years, and I often have a hard time with older scotch unless it's truly magnificent.

There is a lot of personal preference, but many people have this blind notion that more years of aging are always better, and I don't think it's so. The people running the good distilleries know their rickhouses and can get a great whiskey at a variety of ages. While there are differences between older and younger bourbon, I do not automatically pick the older bourbon as better. There are simply too many other factors to take into account, and sometimes a younger whiskey that was properly aged can be much more of a flavorful and exciting whiskey than an older whiskey that might be too mellow or woody.


Cheers,

-monte-

bobbyc
04-26-2006, 21:17
They said that in the past year, more than one barrel destined for use in the Pappy 23 brand has turned up completely evaporated with only loose char and dust in the barrel.

If you can't trust the angels, who can you trust?

bluesbassdad
04-26-2006, 21:35
I don't care what type of liquor is aged in that barrel in its next life; I want some.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

Virus_Of_Life
04-27-2006, 00:38
They said that in the past year, more than one barrel destined for use in the Pappy 23 brand has turned up completely evaporated with only loose char and dust in the barrel.

Thomas

Maybe this is Pappy's way of telling them that it is time to BBQ. And, oh yeah, use bourbon soaked briquettes!!

whiskeymaven
04-27-2006, 01:51
Monte, There is a 52 year old Macallan that entered the bottle at 51.7%. You are absoluetly right that the climate in Kentucky prevents older vintages, and it is not uncommon to see 40 or 50 year old scotch expressions due to the calm Scottish climate. Glenfiddich 40 year(43.6%), Glenlivet(45.05%), Macallan(51.7%), and Laphroaig 40 year(43%) all have expressions of 40 years or more. I would be curious to taste a boubon aged in a scottish climate, or at least one that doesn't reach the 90's in the summer.

Gillman
04-27-2006, 02:54
Is it possible casks are topped up with others of the same age, or in other words consolidated to minimise evaporation? This may not be possible under law in the U.S. (for bourbon I mean), but I have always wondered if this may be practiced in Europe for whisky, cognac, etc.

Gary

AVB
04-27-2006, 05:14
I had a chance to talk to Dave Stewart of Balvenie about limiting the angel's share by covering or partial exterior wax sealing and he said that they had done some testing on that over the years. Apparently, the results were not up to their standard and nothing further was done in that area.

Also, a majority of scotch that I saw is not stored in the high open rickhouses like bourbon. Laphroaig in particular had some casks stacked 2 high with the bottom row sitting on the dirt and the whole storage building was below sea level.




Is it possible casks are topped up with others of the same age, or in other words consolidated to minimise evaporation? This may not be possible under law in the U.S. (for bourbon I mean), but I have always wondered if this may be practiced in Europe for whisky, cognac, etc.

Gary

BarItemsPlus1
04-27-2006, 05:23
Dave Stewart of Balvenie.... & Glenfiddich and Kinnievie(SP?), probably should have said W.Grant ;)
Not to be picky!!:grin:

Little ironic AVB as I have just been chattin to David and I must say he is extremely helpful when it comes to advice and info!! David has my vote!!

AVB
04-27-2006, 05:56
I'm sure what you heard is much more up to date as it was at least 4 years ago when I talked to him last.

BourbonSteve
04-30-2006, 11:48
Might've been a misprint. I saw some PVW 20 yr old yesterday for $94 and should've bought it but I just bought a bottle of BMH 11 yr old 30 minutes earlier. anyway, I'd try to get my hands on it next time if I were you. :)

blue lander
05-27-2006, 12:14
I was at the Bourbon in Adams Morgan (there's another one in Georgetown) a couple nights ago, and I didn't see a Pappy Van Winkle older than 23 years on the shelf. I assume it must be a typo. Most of their higher priced bottles were almost completely full, either because people aren't dumb enough to pay those prices or because hardly anybody there drinks anything but beer and Jack and Coke (most people go there for the food, I think).

DrinkyBanjo
05-28-2006, 07:54
I had my first sample of Pappy Van Winkle 20 yesterday since I opened it back in February. Where I liked it back then I REALLY liked it yesterday. It is definitely too expensive to drink regularly but a couple of buddys I had over yesterday were discussing it so I decided to be a good host and pour out a couple of glasses. Nice stuff.