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nysquire
03-18-2006, 13:30
I just recently got a bottle of AH Hirsch 16yo. Was this bottled at Buffalo Trcae? Same bottles as all of the Pappy's. The bottle says distilled in the spring of 1974. Is this for real?
Looking for any info that I can get....Also $74.99 for this, is that the going rate? Real nice bourbon...

Thanks JIM

Virus_Of_Life
03-18-2006, 14:53
Others on this board can offer much more specific info, but what I know if I can recall everything correctly is Yes it was distilled in '74 at now defunct Michters in Pa. which closed in the late '80s, IIRC, aged 16 years then dumped into stainless steel to stop the aging. At that point I believe it was bottled once (I do not know where) with the blue wax top. It apparently continued to sit in the stainless steel for a number of years and was bottled two more times gold wax then gold foil - this being the last of it.

There is varying opinions on whether or not all those years in SS affected the taste...

$75 seems to be about the going rate, I (before knowing any better) paid $87 for one a couple of years ago and enjoyed it quite immensely. I now have a blue wax that I paid a considerable amount less for that will remain unopened until I either find another one, or some very special occasion. All that said I believe last time I checked their site Binnys was selling it (gold foil of course) for $50, which is a very good price.

Gillman
03-18-2006, 16:02
You've got it all right. Some people think the relatively low price for the gold foil reflects its lower quality (as they perceive it) in relation to the gold wax and blue wax bottlings. Anyway, since you have a blue wax, you have what many feel is the best one. The gold wax certainly was very good, and even the gold foil is. Michter's specialised in a mash bill of 50% corn, 38% rye and the rest barley malt, being a proprietary form of straight whiskey. Some have wondered if what was bottled as Hirsch 16 is that whiskey (i.e., what was sold at 6 years old in decanters in the 70's when Michters was still operating), and perhaps the 1% difference was not felt or is not legally material from the point of view of calling it bourbon. Or maybe this '74 distillate really is a true bourbon since Michter's apparently made different kinds of whiskey for different markets (some bulk). Anyway, it's fine whiskey and a good idea (whatever mash bill it is) of what Michter's was all about albeit a more aged version. Just last night I vatted (Tim Sousley has done this too) some 70's Michters I got by trade from Randy with some gold wax 16, 50/50, in the glass. As Tim has noted earlier on the board, that is really good.

Gary

OscarV
11-15-2006, 13:52
I was just looking at SamsWines.com and I see the A H Hirsch 16 year old is now $99.99. It seems like I paid around $70.00 a year ago. Their price for Pappy 20 year old is "only" $91.99.
The word must be out that the well is about to run dry.
Has anyone heard when they think no more will be available?

A 20 yo Hirsch went for $520.00 plus $30.00 shipping on eBay a couple of weeks ago.
Will we see a $200.00 or more bottle of the 16yo in the future?

cowdery
11-15-2006, 14:43
The marketer is Preiss Imports. When I talked to them about two months ago, they had about 500 cases left and said they would periodically raise the price as that supply dwindled down to nothing. So, while it's possible retailers are raising it on their own, they may also be raising it as they buy more and have to spend more to do so.

jburlowski
11-15-2006, 15:30
It's been priced at $90-100 around Northern KY for some time.

wskybnt
11-15-2006, 16:53
Just bought a bottle today. It will be my first time to try it. I plan on opening it later.

By the way, I paid 89.99 plus tax........may or may not be worth it, but I have wanted to try it for some time...

ThomasH
11-15-2006, 17:35
I bought a bottle of Hirsch 16 in Feb. 05 from Binnys. It had originally been 49.99 but was on sale for 39.99. I drink this only occasionally as it is getting more expensive and rare all the time!

Thomas

Vange
11-16-2006, 11:23
I bought a case (12 bottles) about a year ago at the price of $49.99 a bottle, but the case discount brought it closer to $46 a bottle. It sits in my closet as one of my favorite bourbons.

On another note, I still see it on a lot of shelves.

OscarV
11-16-2006, 14:06
I just checked Binny's web site and the 16yo Hirsch is now $69.99.
Thats 30 bucks cheaper than Sam's, to bad Binny's doesn't ship to MI.

bigtoys
11-16-2006, 20:21
Ditto: Binny's in Skokie, IL tonight had 6 bottles of Hirsch for $70.

Vange
11-16-2006, 20:26
Seems the prices for hirsch 16 gold foil are all rising with the supplies diminishing. A year ago binnys was at 50, now 70. Thats a big increase!

CrispyCritter
11-16-2006, 20:59
The marketer is Preiss Imports. When I talked to them about two months ago, they had about 500 cases left and said they would periodically raise the price as that supply dwindled down to nothing.

Ah yes, the folks at PLOWED came up with a term for this phenomenon: "Preiss Gouging."

Empty Glass
01-22-2007, 09:16
I bought a bottle of AHH16 online from Ca. for $72.00 just before Christmas. I checked a week later and the price had jumped to $89.99 at the same store. I grabbed last 2 bottles off the shelf at a store in Ct. for $74.00 each. Not only have they not replaced them they removed the shelf sticker which most likely means that there supplier has a poor or non-existant source. The price is on the rise.

Marina Blue
01-22-2007, 11:24
A 20 yo Hirsch went for $520.00 plus $30.00 shipping on eBay a couple of weeks ago.
Will we see a $200.00 or more bottle of the 16yo in the future?
I thought alcoholic beverages can only be sold by a licensed establishment and question the legality of selling on eBay. If it is legal I am in an interesting position since I have 8 bottles of the 20 year old and 14 bottles of the blue-wax 16 year old A. H. Hirsch. Michters had always been my favorite whiskey, so when they went out of business I spent years yearning to taste it again. I had always thought that if I ever again had the chance I would buy a case or two. Finally I learned that it was being bottled again under the Hirsch label. Guess what I did. If anyone has a suggestion on how to legally sell some of my overstock let me know.

jburlowski
01-22-2007, 11:26
I thought alcoholic beverages can only be sold by a licensed establishment and question the legality of selling on eBay. If it is legal I am in an interesting position since I have 8 bottles of the 20 year old and 14 bottles of the blue-wax 16 year old A. H. Hirsch. Michters had always been my favorite whiskey, so when they went out of business I spent years yearning to taste it again. I had always thought that if I ever again had the chance I would buy a case or two. Finally I learned that it was being bottled again under the Hirsch label. Guess what I did. If anyone has a suggestion on how to legally sell some of my overstock let me know.

1) get a license from your local jurisdiction --- then you can sell it
2) drink it
3) drink it with / give it to friends
4) can I be your friend?

Marina Blue
01-22-2007, 11:36
Anyway, since you have a blue wax, you have what many feel is the best one. The gold wax certainly was very good, and even the gold foil is. Michter's specialised in a mash bill of 50% corn, 38% rye and the rest barley malt, being a proprietary form of straight whiskey. Some have wondered if what was bottled as Hirsch 16 is that whiskey (i.e., what was sold at 6 years old in decanters in the 70's when Michters was still operating), and perhaps the 1% difference was not felt or is not legally material from the point of view of calling it bourbon. Or maybe this '74 distillate really is a true bourbon since Michter's apparently made different kinds of whiskey for different markets (some bulk). Anyway, it's fine whiskey and a good idea (whatever mash bill it is) of what Michter's was all about albeit a more aged version. Just last night I vatted (Tim Sousley has done this too) some 70's Michters I got by trade from Randy with some gold wax 16, 50/50, in the glass. As Tim has noted earlier on the board, that is really good.

Gary
Michter's was always my favorite. I was at the distillery, more than once, when it was in operation and still have a bottle of the 101 proof to make a comparison to my Hirsch 16 & 20 year olds. The aroma of the Hirsch bottlings cannot be mistaken for anything other than Michter's original Bourbon mash bill. The taste is also unmistakeable even though the Hirsch is aged much longer. I would say it is the original formulation.

jbutler
01-22-2007, 12:05
I thought alcoholic beverages can only be sold by a licensed establishment and question the legality of selling on eBay. If it is legal I am in an interesting position since I have 8 bottles of the 20 year old and 14 bottles of the blue-wax 16 year old A. H. Hirsch. Michters had always been my favorite whiskey, so when they went out of business I spent years yearning to taste it again. I had always thought that if I ever again had the chance I would buy a case or two. Finally I learned that it was being bottled again under the Hirsch label. Guess what I did. If anyone has a suggestion on how to legally sell some of my overstock let me know.

It's not just the Federal Government. Take careful note that Straightbourbon.com will not tolerate the sale of liquor on this site; not in public or via the private messaging facility.

Jazzhead
01-22-2007, 17:22
I bought a bottle of Hirsch 16 about a year ago for $69 bucks, but haven't opened it yet. I have a couple of Michter's Hex decanters, a pour of which I'm enjoying as I type this. Good whiskey, but not great (the finish lets it down; there's a certain mustiness to it. I wonder if that could be due to the ceramic decanter, it's not a taste I've encountered in glass-bottled whiskey of the same vintage.)

TNbourbon
01-22-2007, 17:24
I bought a bottle of Hirsch 16 about a year ago for $69 bucks, but haven't opened it yet. I have a couple of Michter's Hex decanters, a pour of which I'm enjoying as I type this. Good whiskey, but not great (the finish lets it down; there's a certain mustiness to it. I wonder if that could be due to the ceramic decanter, it's not a taste I've encountered in glass-bottled whiskey of the same vintage.)

Vat that Michter's 1:1 with some Hirsch 16. Report back.

boone
01-23-2007, 10:14
I thought alcoholic beverages can only be sold by a licensed establishment and question the legality of selling on eBay. If it is legal I am in an interesting position since I have 8 bottles of the 20 year old and 14 bottles of the blue-wax 16 year old A. H. Hirsch. Michters had always been my favorite whiskey, so when they went out of business I spent years yearning to taste it again. I had always thought that if I ever again had the chance I would buy a case or two. Finally I learned that it was being bottled again under the Hirsch label. Guess what I did. If anyone has a suggestion on how to legally sell some of my overstock let me know.

Are you going to sell them to the member's on this forum?

bobbyc
01-23-2007, 10:47
Is there someone else who has been a member of StraightBourbon.com for longer than 1 day that knows you Marina Blue? I'm not the only one that this happens to but when someone shows up, doesn't post a proper introduction in an appropriate forum then goes right into maybe conducting business, a few red flags pop up.

Marina Blue
01-23-2007, 12:08
Is there someone else who has been a member of StraightBourbon.com for longer than 1 day that knows you Marina Blue? I'm not the only one that this happens to but when someone shows up, doesn't post a proper introduction in an appropriate forum then goes right into maybe conducting business, a few red flags pop up.
I just made a long reply that vanished when I hit the Submit Reply button. Statement then informed me I was no longer logged in. When i hit the back button all my infomation was lost. Is there a procedure I do not understand since I was initially logged in?

cowdery
01-23-2007, 14:17
First, go back and read Jim Butler's post again.

Second, you must have a retail liquor sales license to sell liquor. Period. This is both state and federal law.

Third, people are selling liquor on eBay. Is it legal? No! Are they being prosecuted? No! Could that change at any moment? Yes!

As Preiss Imports dribbles out the last of the Hirsch 16, they keep doing so at ever higher prices so as wholesalers and retailers restock, they are raising their prices to reflect their higher costs. Some are raising prices on stock they already have if they think they can get it. Some may not be rebuying because they judge the product to be too rich for them or their customers.

Rather than trying to get in on the back end of this phenomenon, get in on the next one by buying all of the Pappy Van Winkle (any expression) you can find. Yes, it's already high, but it's going to go higher.

Also potentially collectible is any bottle of Evan Williams Single Barrel Vintage prior to the current, 1997 edition. Their rarity is because they were made at Heaven Hill's Bardstown distillery that was destroyed by fire in 1996. Yes, there are other Heaven Hill bottlings that still contain whiskey from that plant -- both of the Elijah Craig expressions, for example -- but the dating of EWSBV lets you be sure what you are getting. Plus, the EWSBV has been Heaven Hill's showcase for its best bourbon, so you're getting something that is not only potentially collectible but also good to drink.

Vange
01-23-2007, 15:07
PVW will run out oneday?

cowdery
01-23-2007, 15:13
At present, all Pappy is SW, which will run out. At some point BT and Julian will have to decide to either let the Pappy brand die out with the last of the SW whiskey, or convert it to using whiskey from BT. Either way, Pappy as we know it today will be gone.

Marina Blue
01-23-2007, 16:16
I can understand that some would be apprehensive about a newcomer to this forum that, on his very first post, says he has collectible whiskey to unload. You deserve some background information.

I worked part-time for the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board as a store clerk from 1968 to 1985. In the early 80’s I remember a rivalry between Jack Daniel’s and Michter’s distilleries as to which had the oldest continuously operating distillery. They both were advertised as sour mash whiskey, which caused them to become natural rivals. Being in the business caused me to do whatever I could to further product knowledge so I decided to visit Michter’s distillery in Schaefferstown which was only 40 or 50 miles from my home. The Jug House at the distillery was restored to it’s 1800’s ambience and reminded me of a Williamsburg shop. After tasting Michter’s whiskey in the picnic grove across from the Jug House, I was hooked. Jack Daniel’s didn’t come close and all other whiskeys I tried did not hold up to this one of a kind spirit. It must have been the high rye content and copper still that made the difference. To my taste the 86 proof was better than the 101. I should have stocked up at that time but after I quit the liquor store in 1985 my focus changed. When I realized Michter’s was bankrupt it was too late to buy any of their product. Between 1989 and 2001 I would occasionally check with friends at the store and was told there was Michter’s whiskey somewhere but they didn’t know how to buy it.

I retired from my regular job in 1997 and went back to the PLCB for part-time work again, but this time it was only to keep busy. In 2001, during a lunch break, I was reading an article about American Whiskeys in PLCB’s price book, Wine & Spirits Quarterly. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read that a 1974 distillation of Michter’s was available under the A. H. Hirsch brand. I went right to the stores computer to search product availability for Code 891 (16 year) and Code 3234 (20 year). I still have the seach results of how many bottles were available and which stores had them. As of November 1, 2001 there were 80, 16 year and 133, 20 year old bottles of A. H. Hirsch in the state of Pennsylvania. Before my final day of work in December, and 2nd retirement, I had my stock of 1974 Michter’s.

My passion for bourbon has waned over the last few years but in October 2005 when I went to Bowling Green, KY to pick up a new Corvette, I made it a point to visit the Wild Turkey, Woodford Reserve, and Buffalo Trace Distilleries. My passion for bourbon was re-kindled. If you have never visited the distilleries along the Bourbon Trail make it a point to do so. It is well worth the effort. If you decide to make the trip take time to visit Rebecca-Ruth Candies at 112 E. 2nd Street in Frankfort. They make the best bourbon candies you can imagine. In Versailles there is a hard to find, but worthwhile place called Sweet Potatoes where I had a "Kentucky Brown" Sandwich. Forget the LDL’s temporarily and enjoy one of these; they’re out of this world. After that trip I realized that Kentucky has become one of my favorite states. It has all of my passions: Corvettes, Bourbon, Blue Grass Music, good food, and fast horses.

I have not searched the net for bourbon information in about 6 years, so was surprised when I came upon this site. There was nothing like this forum the last time I looked for information about Michter’s and A. H. Hirsch. I must admit I was trying to check the market for my favorite brand and was surprised by the activity here in response to my first post. The format of this web-site is much like Corvette Forum where I am a member. In fact I used the same name here as I use on Corvette Forum. Marina Blue was the color of my first new car in 1967.

As far as my personal stock of A. H. Hirsch is concerned, I have opened a bottle or two each year since 2001 but my libations have slowed. I am now 61 and am finding that alcohol and age do not mix well. I still have at least enough stock to last another 25 years which is probably longer than I will last. That’s why I was thinking about downsizing. When I told my son about my dilemma he said, "Don’t worry Dad, when your too old to drive and drink (never at the same time) I will take care of both your Corvette and whiskey." That was comforting.

I have learned much from the threads here and find the site informative. If I seemed like an intruder with my first post, please forgive me, that was not my intention.

Phil

Marina Blue
01-23-2007, 16:52
First, go back and read Jim Butler's post again.

Second, you must have a retail liquor sales license to sell liquor. Period. This is both state and federal law.

Third, people are selling liquor on eBay. Is it legal? No! Are they being prosecuted? No! Could that change at any moment? Yes!

As Preiss Imports dribbles out the last of the Hirsch 16, they keep doing so at ever higher prices so as wholesalers and retailers restock, they are raising their prices to reflect their higher costs. Some are raising prices on stock they already have if they think they can get it. Some may not be rebuying because they judge the product to be too rich for them or their customers.

Rather than trying to get in on the back end of this phenomenon, get in on the next one by buying all of the Pappy Van Winkle (any expression) you can find. Yes, it's already high, but it's going to go higher.

Also potentially collectible is any bottle of Evan Williams Single Barrel Vintage prior to the current, 1997 edition. Their rarity is because they were made at Heaven Hill's Bardstown distillery that was destroyed by fire in 1996. Yes, there are other Heaven Hill bottlings that still contain whiskey from that plant -- both of the Elijah Craig expressions, for example -- but the dating of EWSBV lets you be sure what you are getting. Plus, the EWSBV has been Heaven Hill's showcase for its best bourbon, so you're getting something that is not only potentially collectible but also good to drink.

Good information but I question calling whiskey a collectible if it has no monetary value after the initial sale. I have a number of so called collectibles including 20 year old Pappy from 2001. When I was at Wild Turkey I was told to hold onto my 101 proof Russell's Reserve because it was no longer bottled at that proof and the value was going up. When I asked where the market was for collectible whiskey I got no answer. The same thing happened at Buffalo Trace. I was told my bottle of 142.7 proof George T. Stagg was rare and valuable because of the high bottle proof that year. Once again, no market. So where is the value other than to sip a great bourbon? No I'm not that dumb, there has to be a black market but it is tough to navigate and I for one don't want to chance the legal ramifications. It's too bad politicians are not as receptive to collectible and mail order spirits as they seem to be for the wine industry.

People can have collections to satisfy their personal interests. I know someone who collected matchbooks. The matchbooks had no monetary value but were part of a collection. I consider a collectible as being something with monetary value that could be sold to another person (stamps, coins, baseball cards). Whiskey fits better in the category of a collection rather than being a collectible. I'm not trying to start an argument here but define "collectible" whiskey properly since it cannot legally be resold. If my logic is wrong please correct me.

Just my thoughts.

Phil

cowdery
01-24-2007, 00:12
Thanks for the explanation, Phil. Makes sense. You also seem to have figured out those things that were left unsaid. I suggest that you continue to browse this site, perhaps paying closer attention to discussions about the Kentucky Bourbon Festival Sampler in April and the Kentucky Bourbon Festival itself in September, where collections and collectors have a way of hooking up.

Marina Blue
01-24-2007, 07:28
Thanks for the explanation, Phil. Makes sense. You also seem to have figured out those things that were left unsaid. I suggest that you continue to browse this site, perhaps paying closer attention to discussions about the Kentucky Bourbon Festival Sampler in April and the Kentucky Bourbon Festival itself in September, where collections and collectors have a way of hooking up.

Once again, good information Chuck. I stayed in Bardstown on my way home from Bowling Green and had wished it would have been Festival time. I can see a return trip in my future. From what I have read it is a great time.

Phil Falk

Vange
01-24-2007, 12:36
At present, all Pappy is SW, which will run out. At some point BT and Julian will have to decide to either let the Pappy brand die out with the last of the SW whiskey, or convert it to using whiskey from BT. Either way, Pappy as we know it today will be gone.

I am suddenly very sad. Pappy 20 is hands down my favorite bourbon to date.
What will I do? I may have to buy a case to keep over the years.

bobbyc
01-24-2007, 16:00
I can understand that some would be apprehensive about a newcomer to this forum that, on his very first post, says he has collectible whiskey to unload. You deserve some background information.

Welcome to the site. I hope your stay is enjoyable and you find the answers to any of your bourbon questions here.

snakster
01-25-2007, 12:15
First post, please go easy on me. I have recently found this site and have lurked for a few weeks. Today I was finally inspired to actually register, and now I post. I chose this thread because I have been teetering on whether to pick some of the hirsch up or not (and pappy too, now that I read the entire thread). Here in PA, the Hirsch 16 is going for 69.99. My local wine& spirits currently has 9 bottles on the shelf (maybe I should jump instead of type). They also have one or two bottles of pappy 20 (72.99).

I have only recently (last year or so) really gotten into the wonderful world of fine Bourbon. What really made it click for me was buying my first bottle of Buffalo Trace ("Chairman's Selection" here in PA). I felt then (and still do) that it was fantastic. I have tried and enjoyed some others now and I have a growing appreciation for the type. Recent succesful trials have included Woodford Reserve, Eagle Rare, and Elijah Craig 12.

I look forward to continuing to broaden my bourbon horizons. By reading more here, I'm certain that I will also learn a thing or two. But back to the subject at hand. I am getting the impression that I should probably get off the pot and get some Hirsch and Pappy while the gettin' is good.

Hope I didn't ramble or hijack this thread too much.

Ron

TNbourbon
01-25-2007, 12:22
...I have been teetering on whether to pick some of the hirsch up or not (and pappy too, now that I read the entire thread). Here in PA, the Hirsch 16 is going for 69.99. My local wine& spirits currently has 9 bottles on the shelf...

Ron, welcome. That's a good current price of Hirsch, and it's not going to get any cheaper. It's well on its way from scarce to rare. So, if you think you're going to get one at some point anyway, I'd make that point now.


...They also have one or two bottles of pappy 20 (72.99)...

Also, an excellent price, also rating, I'd say, as scarce (or tending that way, at least, regarding its Stitzel-Weller provenance).

Both, too, are very fine bourbons to drink. So, if funds permit, doubling up at that price is smart since you're going to want another bottle of each, anyway.

snakster
01-25-2007, 12:27
That's all I needed; a shove. Have to space it out a little though. Wife may not completely understand (she's the same with poker - women). I guess Pappy first, since there aren't as many of those on the shelf.

cowdery
01-25-2007, 17:10
Since you registered with your location, Snakster, there are undoubtedly readers of this forum rushing to your area at this very moment, eager to find that store and snap up those bargains. I suggest you act fast.

snakster
01-26-2007, 05:02
Since you registered with your location, Snakster, there are undoubtedly readers of this forum rushing to your area at this very moment, eager to find that store and snap up those bargains. I suggest you act fast.


I've got the region wired right now. I know who has what. So finding some for the time being shouldn't be a problem. Though there did seem to be an increase in traffic in my neighborhood last night. Hmmmmmmmm.

Marina Blue
01-26-2007, 12:19
I came to this web-site to see what the market was for my stock of A. H. Hirsch. I tried to go back and make a correction on some information in that first post but was not able to. I have 9, 20 year and 16, 16 year old blue-wax Hirsches. I have decided to hold onto what I have. It gives me a warm feeling everytime I look at those 13 bottles at my bar and when I really want to feel good I go to the closet and open my case of Hirsch to see an even split of 16 & 20 year olds, 6 & 6. Reading posts on this site have re-ignited my appreciation of bourbon so much that I just went out and bought 2 more 16 year olds, albeit, the gold foil. I had intentions of selling, but ended up holding and buying more. I may be up for sucker of the year award but I’m enjoying it.

I plan on drinking the gold foil as long as possible before I dip into my old stock. Hirsch (Michter’s) is the last whiskey stock available from the last Pennsylvania distillery and I am a Pennsylvanian. Those bottles are more than a great drink, but represent part of local history. Hope this makes sense as my State was once considered a top producer of whiskey but now has no distilleries.

Most of you are aware of the history and details behind Michter’s distillery and it’s whiskey, but for those that are not, here are a few web-sites you might find very interesting:

www.thewhiskeystore.de/usa/michters/michters.htm (http://www.thewhiskeystore.de/usa/michters/michters.htm)
www.whiskyportal.com/distillery.asp?DistilleryID=1078 (http://www.whiskyportal.com/distillery.asp?DistilleryID=1078)
www.geocities.com/Heartland/6926/distilry.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6926/distilry.htm)
www.epinions.com/fddk-review-1ECD-6E5BC4F-393C6EEA-prod6 (http://www.epinions.com/fddk-review-1ECD-6E5BC4F-393C6EEA-prod6)

I was fortunate enough to see the distillery before those pictures on the geocities web-site were taken. The last time I was at Michter’s was in January 2002. All the buildings were there but it was a sad sight. Everything was deteriorating. I heard the sound of workmen somewhere in the main building, but that probably came from whomever was using it for storage. Too bad it couldn’t have been salvaged for a better use.

I saw a front page article in The Wall Street Journal today called "As Vodka Sales Skyrocket, Many Newcomers Pour In." I for one could never figure out the Vodka craze. The most expensive vodkas are distilled so many times there is no taste. Why would anyone pay all that money to buy a drink that tastes like nothing? To liven it up they now add flavors back in. Go figure. I’ll take a good bourbon any day of the week. I feel vodka has become a fad drink for those that do not really appreciate the real thing. It seems to appeal to those that are attracted to sugar drinks. My thinking may be way of base, so if you can change it, feel free to do so. The other type of person I notice attracted to vodka is the alcoholic or those who want to hide the fact they just had a few. I remember a Doctor that frequented a liquor store I worked in during the 1970’s. He always bought vodka and lots of it. When he came in we always shook our heads. I’m glad he was not my doctor and am sure he was hiding his alcoholism from patients by drinking vodka. He eventually fell out of his boat and drowned. I wonder why that happened? On my second go round with the PLCB (Penna. Liquor Control Board), one of my co-workers was a functioning alcoholic. His daily function never showed a sign of being under the influence. He also was a vodka drinker; Ketel One. Right before Christmas of 2001 he left work and a few hours later we got the message that he walked in front of a car and was run over. The car passed completely over him. I wonder why he did that? I know this is macabre, but these stories represent why some people drink vodka.

I’ll end this post on a better note. Most of you here are more knowledgeable than I am so if you can answer this question please do. I know Michter’s had a small pot still that was capable of producing only one barrel a day and that still is now in Kentucky. I have read there was another pot still used for the 2nd distillation that was capable of either 50 or 55 barrels a day. Does anyone know if this is true and if it is, where is the larger still? Is it still at the Michter’s site? I always, much to my regret, missed the tour when I was there in the 80’s. I’m sure my question could have been answered then, but at the time I was only interested in drinking their whiskey.

Phil

Virus_Of_Life
01-26-2007, 13:11
I... Does anyone know if this is true and if it is, where is the larger still? Is it still at the Michterís site?...
Phil

You'll have to get one of the (much) more knowledgable memebers than I to answer that for sure, but I believe one of the Beams (David?) took (bought?) a still from the Michters site. If it was the only one or not, and which size, I do not know. Somewhere on this board is A LOT of information about this distillery, and there is one specific thread I believe that covers a lot of it, I can't find it right off hand but assure you if you have the time you could find pretty much everything and then some about Michter's.

Also our very own Chuck Cowdery wrote a two part piece on it in his Bourbon Country Reader, you can contact him for that.

And of course, welcome to the board, I'm envious of your stocks of this wonderful whiskey!

Marina Blue
01-26-2007, 14:15
Somewhere on this board is A LOT of information about this distillery, and there is one specific thread I believe that covers a lot of it, I can't find it right off hand but assure you if you have the time you could find pretty much everything and then some about Michter's.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll follow through on them and see what I can find.

Phil

FlashPuppy
01-26-2007, 15:23
I think that this (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2958&highlight=michters+mystery) may be what Christian was reffering to. Amazing what that search button does.

ggilbertva
01-26-2007, 16:51
Not to defend Vodka as I am a total Bourbon fanatic. I took the Buffalo Trace tour last year. After the tour, they gave us a sample of BT Bourbon and Rain Vodka, both produced by BT. I told them I didn't like Vodka but would take the bourbon gladly. The Gentleman insisted I at least try the Vodka. I ended up purchasing a bottle of their Vodka as I found it to be flavorful and appealing. It's a corn based Vodka and I believe won Vodka of the Year in 2005. I have never liked Vodka but was pleasantly surprised by their brand. However, I now know that when I do drink Vodka, I won't be in a boat or crossing the street.....I hear bad things happen when you do that.

Marina Blue
01-26-2007, 16:52
FlashPuppy, that referenced thread is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks, great info.

In the referenced thread I noticed that Gillman's post in the first page questioned where the name Michter's came from and suggested a Michter owned the distillery before 1920. Michter comes from combining the names Michael and Peter, who were Louis Forman's two sons. Their combined names just happen to make a great name for a whiskey.

For anyone interested in bringing that distillery back to life, I have heard the water supply is not what it used to be. Drainage from farm chemicals and increased housing may have contaminated the supply.

Phil

Gillman
01-26-2007, 17:04
Thanks Marina, our Chuck Cowdery was the first to discover the origin of the Michter's name you explained, as far as I know. Chuck's research post-dated and superseded the earlier understanding, which was based on speculation by whiskey writer Michael Jackson in the late 1980's.

Gary

Marina Blue
01-26-2007, 17:05
However, I now know that when I do drink Vodka, I won't be in a boat or crossing the street.....I hear bad things happen when you do that.
I suppose I should broaden my horizons, but each year that gets harder for me.:lol:

Phil

cowdery
01-26-2007, 18:44
Phil,

If you can find a copy of WHISKY Magazine no. 42, from 2004, there is an article there by me with the title "Beam's Dream." It tells the story of the Michter's one-barrel-a-day distillery and how David Beam and his family brought it to Kentucky. If you ever happen to be in Bardstown, David or one of his sons will be delighted to show it to you.

As for drinking any of the Hirsch, my recommendation would be to take satisfaction in your far-sightedness and don't be shy about cracking open any of those fine bottles of whiskey. That's what they're there for and that's why those fine Pennsylvanians (and a Kentuckian named Everett Beam) went to all the trouble to make the stuff.

Marina Blue
01-26-2007, 20:19
Chuck,

Thanks for the suggestions. I will try to find that issue.

I only sip occasionally so it takes me awhile to get through a bottle. I haven't cracked a Hirsch for two years but worked through bottles of Woodford Reserve and Elijah Craig since then. My next will be another Hirsch.

Phil

boone
01-27-2007, 10:02
Here's a few posts :grin: about my Uncle Everett :grin: :grin: I've also included the post about David Beams journey to pick up the copperstill :grin:

In the distillery trips thead (Sampler) I posted many pictures :grin: of all of us "on tour" with John Ed (David Beam's son) as our guide :grin: CLICK here --->http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2553


This is a great one. A man on a mission and mission accomplished. David Beam, the story of his mission.

David Beam, is a brother to Baker Beam. Their daddy was Carl Beam. Carl Beam was Master Disitller at Jim Beam. My Aunt Jo, told me that Carl Beam trained "Booker Noe" how to distill bourbon, the Beam way. Carl Beam's daddy (Park) and the famous Jim Beam were brother's.

David Beam has three son's, Troy, Bill and :grin: John Ed :grin:

I mentioned in another post about the Michter's Pot Still that Uncle Everett developed, and how it survived, (a replica) and is sitting right in Bardstown, Ky...Here is "The Rest of the Story".

This was published in the Kentucky Standard, Bardstown, Ky.
By Amy Taylor

David Beam has a yard just like other yards along West Stephen Foster--except for the spot with old-fashioned equipment that could make a barrel of whiskey a day (if it were legal to make booze in your yard).

I was by chance that Beam, the decendant of pioneer distiller Jacob Beam and the son of former Jim Beam master distiller Carl Beam, come upon his gleaming one-ton copper still.

David Beam was retiring after 37 years of service at the Jim Beam Clermont plant when a lawyer friend from Louisa, Ky asked for advice on an old Pennsylvania distillery property the layer had purchased at auction.

It was January of 1996. Beam traveled north with his friend to inspect the defunct Michter's Distillery in Schefferstown, just a stone's throw from the iron works where George Washington bought cannon balls during the Revolutionary War.

Wind blasted the 19th-century buildings of Michter's. There was a foot of snow on the ground. Outside a sign was posted that once advertised the distillery as the oldest operating in the nation.

Inside the decaying buildings Beam and his friend found hunks of whiskey history.

I was like a kid in a candy store. The retired supervisor of the Jim Beam Clermont distillery said. The equipment was remarkable, and it was all still there. I was amazed at what I saw.

The one-ton Pot Still that now sits in Beam's yard was on of the treasures the two men uncovered. Beam ended up buying the still from his friend, along with a smaller still, a fermenter, a mash tub and other equipment.

The big still, a replica of the single-batch pot stills that firms used before the advent of the continuous distilling process, had been made in 1976 and installed at Michter's as a show piece, Beam discovered. It was used to demonstrate distilling to the public.

Beam who grew up around whiskey-making equipment wrestled with ways to get his finds back to Kentucky. That summer he took a team of men from Kentucky to Pennsylvania that included his sons Bill, Troy and John Ed, along with Larry Walker of Heaven Hill and Donnie Ritchie of Jim Beam.


Larry was my crew chief Beam said. Donnie was in charge of transportation.

The men drove trucks with long trailers the 728 miles to Michter's where they used cherry picking equipment and the help of a group of brawny Mennonite farmers to lift the heavy pieces out of the buildings and load them up.

Bill Beam wasn't sure the crew could get everthing to fit, he said. We worked three 14 hour days to get it out of there.

His father remembers how on the way home the copper still attracted it's share of gawkers.

We'd come into a filling station to get gas and people would ask, What is that?

The men had notified federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents of the equipment move to be on the safe side, he said.

Back home in Kentucky, David built a special metal building to house his equipment. He spent days rubbing the tarnished copper pieces with polish, a process taht must be repeated every so often to keep them shinning.

Today the pieces are handsomely displayed, although in not a place that is public. All it would take to fire up the mini-distilling operation would be a boiler, Beam said.

Beam and his sons have spent hours discussing what to do with the historic equipment.

Bill can envision making whiskey with the still, pouring it into miniature oak barrels about the size of gallon jugs, then letting customers buy the little barrels and age their whiskey themselves.

Current law is a barrier to that plan, however, he said, since whiskey can't legally be sold in containers larger that 1.75 liters.

I think if enough people were behind it the law could be changed, Bill said.

The Beams can see firing up the still on distillery property or somewhere where it could be operated legally and where the public could observe it in operation.

If we were approached by the right people at the right time, we would do it, Bill said. We've had some interest, but nothing firm so far.

End of article
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there you have it. If I won the "lottery", I'd be right in there with em'. Helping to fund the starting of the next generation, of the "Real Beam's" making bourbon whiskey :grin:

:grin: :grin: Bettye Jo :grin: :grin:


I know that Uncle Everett worked there 40+ years. I have a picture of him on his retirement day. There is a vast selection of Michters stone jugs in front of him. He's grinnin' from ear to ear.

To start, I have a letter hand written by him. In this letter he's vying for a job with Michters :grin: He wrote his "basic" recipe for all of his whiskies, Bourbon, Corn and Rye. He drew pictures, and near the end he wrote....I wrote this letter to Mitcher Inc. the oldest distillery in the USA, established in 1752 and still in operation at the same site, recently to the new owner, who are unfamilar with the industry. They verified all that I have said and I am in the process of setting up a small operation for them. It's signed C.E. Beam (Charles Everett Beam)

Aunt Jo, told me that Uncle Everett made the best "Rye" whiskey in the United States. I have a picture of him standing beside barrel # 5000 of "Rye" whiskey. He's shaking hands with this dude...probably the "Big Cheese" at Mitchers :grin: The barrel states...Pennco Distillers, Inc. of Penna. DSP PA 17, Schaeferstown, Pa Serial # 5000 Filled OCT. 10 61 OPG 544 OP 109 OT 93.

I really don't know much about what went on during the 80's. All the stuff that I have relate directly to my family of Beams :grin:

:grin: :grin: Bettye Jo :grin: :grin:


Gary,

I looked it up, and found Uncle Everett's, "retirement" write up in the local paper, in PA.

It specifiaclly states in the capiton, (this is the picture that I mentioned him grinnin' from ear to ear). He looks over a collection of containers for the renowned Mithter's Pot Still Whiskey, which he helped develop for Pennco Disillers.----and one of the scions of that same family did a turn around about a quarter of a century ago by coming back to his ancestors old stomping ground to produce....the best rye whiskey in the world, in the nations oldest continuous operating distillery.---Pennco, produces the finest rye whiskey in the world. Our product, is bought by other companies for rebottling under thier brand names and you'd be surprised if I told you the name of some of those brands. I'm especailly proud of our famous Michter's Pot Still whiskey. I helped develop it, and we just can't make enough of it to satisfy the demand---
Beam and his wife, the former Alberta Spalding who also hails for Bardstown came to Schaefferstown in 1950 when he joined Pennco.---Now all you whiskey drinkers out there don't you start weeping and raising your galsses for a final toast yet.---Despite his retirement from the daily grind, C.E. Beam is not about to disassociate himself entirely from the whiskey business. He is continuing to serve as vice president and advisor to Pennco Distillers Inc. of Pennsylvania, Newmanstown RD 1.

I know that during his employment with Pennco, his mom became very ill, she asked that he come back to Kentucky. He did, uprooted his entire family and moved in with his mom and daddy. He cared for her till the last of her days. He then packed up the family and move back to PA. :grin: That part, just chokes me, whenever I think about it.

I hope this helps with the puzzle.

:grin: :grin: Bettye Jo :grin: :grin:

Marina Blue
01-27-2007, 13:22
Betty Jo,

Thanks so much for taking the time to post that information. I really appreciate it.

Apparently your Uncle Everett started with Pennco in 1950 and then worked there approximately 40 years. That probably means he continued with Michter's until bankruptcy was declared in 1989.

If I understand correctly, Everett developed the recipe (mash bill) for the Sour Mash Whiskey. Do you know if it has been lost or is in someones possession?

I must apologize for asking questions, but this really interests me. Michter's Sour Mash was always my favorite, however, I never tried the rye and believe I really missed something there.

The saving of the pot still is one of the few good stories to come out of the demise of Michter's distillery.

Regards,
Phil

boone
01-27-2007, 15:52
I have his timeline...It will take me a bit to search my files :grin: :grin: :grin: to give you the exact date...

A little family history background...Joseph L. Beam is my great grandfather...He was the first Master Distiller at Heaven Hill and one of the first original incorporators of Heaven Hill/Old Heaven Hill Springs. My grandfather Harry Milburn Beam was the second :grin: :grin: Distiller :grin: :grin: Everett and my grandfather were brother's...

Uncle Everett, worked at many places in his lifetime...We have his notes on each of his "mash bill's" for corn, bourbon, and rye whiskey's :grin: :grin: :grin:

Click on this link---> http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8464&postcount=1 The post tells the story :grin: :grin: :grin: of my Family of Distiller's :grin: :grin: :grin: "A Distilling Dynasty" is good biography condensed :grin: :grin:

This post--->
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18396&postcount=1 contains my picture of all the "boys" together :grin: This family picture was published in the Spirits Journal (1937) along with a write up on my family of Beam Distiller's :grin: :grin: :grin:

It's good to see "new" interest in the history of bourbon :grin: :grin: :grin:

Hope that's not too confusing :bigeyes: :grin:

Bettye Jo


Betty Jo,

Thanks so much for taking the time to post that information. I really appreciate it.

Apparently your Uncle Everett started with Pennco in 1950 and then worked there approximately 40 years. That probably means he continued with Michter's until bankruptcy was declared in 1989.

If I understand correctly, Everett developed the recipe (mash bill) for the Sour Mash Whiskey. Do you know if it has been lost or is in someones possession?

I must apologize for asking questions, but this really interests me. Michter's Sour Mash was always my favorite, however, I never tried the rye and believe I really missed something there.

The saving of the pot still is one of the few good stories to come out of the demise of Michter's distillery.

Regards,
Phil

Marina Blue
01-27-2007, 18:52
Betty Jo,

I really do appreciate your response and am relieved to know your great-uncle's notes on his masterpieces are not lost.

I have been interested in bourbon and it's history, especially Michter's, for some time now. When I realized my all time favorite, Michter's Sour Mash, was available again under the Hirsch label I was moved to do research on it's history. Of course an appreciation of all bourbons followed.

My interest was in hibernation the last few years but was awakened again when I found this web-site.

Phil Falk

PS Enjoyed seeing your family pictures. Thanks for sharing.

snakster
01-29-2007, 10:06
wow, great stuff. Thanks to all for this fascinating information. I did pick up a bottle this weekend. A good night at the poker table followed, so now I think I'll pick up another. As Marina suggested, being from PA makes it all the more appealing to me; that and being a history nut.