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Gillman
05-02-2006, 20:10
Accompanying the rye whiskey renaissance are a clutch of interesting whiskeys, some unaged or aged only a short time. At Tim's rye whiskey tasting during the recent Sampler, he offered Isaiha Morgan rye whiskey. I found this one of the most interesting whiskeys tasted during this trip. It had a very appetizing, "juicy" taste yet was neither sweet nor (very) aged. It is hard to describe the taste but everyone who tried it liked it. I would think it is the type of whiskey that may represent the best of the old moonshine recipes. I could see drinking this cool or cold (but not iced) before dinner. Recommended.

Another rye whiskey, soon to appear and discussed here last year, is Templeton rye. See www.templetonrye.com. This is distilled in a copper pot still and is a recreation or perhaps evocation of a Prohibition-era illicit recipe famed for its quality. So it's got some interesting historical imagery behind it. The product is still being aged and according to Internet information I found will be released this summer but apparently early samples were essayed at the San Francisco whiskey Expo last year. I know some people on the board attended that event, does anyone recall tasting this whiskey? What was it like?

Rye is coming back and of course Sazerac's 6-7 year old rye is an example.

That Fleischmann's rye Lenell brought was excellent. I felt it was better than, say, Jim Beam rye (which isn't bad, but just not as good). For some reason Fleischmann's rye is sold in Wisconsin only. One hopes stocks will be made available elsewhere.

Gary

JeffRenner
05-02-2006, 20:23
For some reason Fleischmann's rye is sold in Wisconsin only. One hopes stocks will be made available elsewhere.
My understanding from a posting here is that it is being discontinued entirely.

I suppose I could search for that post.

I find it very similar to Beam in style but different in detail. I like it a lot.

Jeff

elkdoggydog
05-02-2006, 21:14
Once whiskey drinkers find out that ryes are often softer and sweeter than bourbon, the stuff should really take off.
In many ways, products like Old Overholt and JB Rye are the whiskeys I wish I'd known about in college. I think they're extremely accesible to non-whiskey drinkers, and I like to keep one of them around for cocktails and a change of pace.

Gillman
05-03-2006, 05:26
Certainly rye is a change of pace. The Beam ryes don't really do it for me although I always have Overholt in stock and will buy Jim Beam's rye when I next see it because, i) I want to support rye sales, ii) occasionally I enjoy them, iii) I use them in cocktails and for blending where I really appreciate them. For neat sampling, on the younger side, I like Michter's Straight Rye Whiskey and WT's rye. On the older side, Michter's 10 year old rye (which in fact is much older) is very good amongst others. I did not recall that someone said Fleischmann's rye may exit the market, if so that would be a pity because it is very good, a good alternative in the younger-end rye category. It is interesting how (and I am thinking of what Roger said today in a thread on export WT) the whiskeys in the bottle seemingly can change from time to time. Tim at Gazebo had an Overholt that was from the later 90's marked Clermont as the bottles are today but the contents seemed quite different than today's Overholt, softer, richer, older, more subtle, without the "oats-like" note of current Overholt. Maybe it was the same recipe but just aged longer. So they change over time too (sometimes), and I like to try them periodically to see if this has occurred. I am convinced current WT rye for example is the best ever bottled under that name, at least in the last 20 years.

Gary

MikeK
05-03-2006, 07:13
My understanding from a posting here is that it is being discontinued entirely.

I suppose I could search for that post.

I find it very similar to Beam in style but different in detail. I like it a lot.

Jeff

That would be sad. During the Barton's tour at the Sampler, Greg Davis did confirm that VOB BIB is going away, at least for the short term, due to low stocks. We gave him a hard time about the limited availability of Fleischmann's Rye. He did not mention anything about it going away.

chasking
05-03-2006, 09:23
At the Binny's pre-Whiskeyfest event I was talking to the Barton sales rep, who did say the Fleishmann's is only sold in Wisconsin but didn't say anything about it being dropped. Although, I don't know that he would have volunteered the information if he knew.

Nebraska
05-03-2006, 12:41
While in Iowa today, I happened to be looking along the bottom shelf, low and behold, Fleischmann's rye! I spent all of 2 seconds trying to decide whether or not to buy it after I noticed it was a WHOPPING $6.98 with TAX. Haven't popped the top yet, probably will tonight.


Mark/Nebraska

Dahlrod
05-04-2006, 16:22
I bought a bottle of JB Rye for a friend a few years back as a joke. It was so cheap and all. Wow. I've kept a bottle on the shelf just about ever since. It was surprisingly smooth and sweet for a $10 bottle. Haven't tried the Overholt yet. Might get to that tonight.

elkdoggydog
05-04-2006, 17:17
Let us know what you think of the Old Overholt. I like it a bit more than the Beam Rye. Good cheap whiskey is a beautiful thing.
I think I'll "splurge" on the WT Rye for my next bottle, though I am more of a drinker than a collector.

Whiskey River
05-13-2006, 17:04
Picked up a bottle of Old Overholt, and WT Rye today, Wow!! They couldn't be more different. Why so? More than just a difference in mash bills? I love the spicy peppery taste of the WT. Love the strong side of rye in bourbons also.

Virus_Of_Life
05-14-2006, 00:23
Picked up a bottle of Old Overholt, and WT Rye today, Wow!! They couldn't be more different. Why so? More than just a difference in mash bills? I love the spicy peppery taste of the WT. Love the strong side of rye in bourbons also.

I think a lot of that has to do with the difference in proof, 21 is a pretty large difference. Imagine diluting that WT by about 20% and I think they'd be closer, but I also think there may be an age difference - I suspect the WT is aged a bit longer. And well, quite simply WT Rye is just a very good rye hands down, that's not to say OO is bad because I like it also.

If you like those two I highly recomend Sazerac (junior), that has become one of my favorite whiskeys.

Whiskey River
05-14-2006, 06:01
Good point on the proof difference. OO reminds me (slightly) of EWSB, and the WT is allot like WT 101 with more pepper. I enjoy both.

I've been looking, but can't seem to find Sazerac in my area. I also would like to get my hands on a bottle of VWFR 13yr.

Thanks for your recomendation and imput!

Steve



----------------------------

Virus_Of_Life
05-14-2006, 11:46
I've been looking, but can't seem to find Sazerac in my area. I also would like to get my hands on a bottle of VWFR 13yr.


Where is your area? You should update your profile so it shows there your location...

kbuzbee
07-14-2006, 11:56
Has anyone here tried the new Hirsch 21?? Opinions??

Ken (who thinks WT Rye is the BEST rye (Sorry Ken W))

Nebraska
07-14-2006, 17:31
I haven't visited it in a while, not because I don't like it. It's pretty pricey. I don't regret buying it and have contemplated a second bottle. Bottom line is though, Sazerac at $50 has more character and zing than $110 Hirsch.

I'm probably going to try the Rittenhouse 21, the HH and the Thomas Handy when available. It irks me to spend that kind of money, but I do like my Rye whiskey.

kbuzbee
07-15-2006, 07:57
It irks me to spend that kind of money, but I do like my Rye whiskey.

Me too. And I agree totally. None of the "high end" Ryes I've tried measure up to WT which is quite reasonably priced.

Ken

Nebraska
07-15-2006, 20:07
I'm going to lend a big approval rating to the WT rye.:toast:

Great price (less than $20 here) and a Very good pour for the price point! That and Rittenhouse BIB you can't beat for bang for buck.

ILLfarmboy
12-31-2006, 05:34
Yesterday I spied several bottles of Templeton Rye on the shelf of a
Hy-Vee Wine and Spirits in Davenport IA. $32 and some change for an 80 proofer:smiley_acbt: I might have bought a fifth if It was a few bucks cheaper and bottled at 90 or above. Dang, why are so many whiskeys watered all the way down to the legal minimum?

I would be interested in reading anyones opinion of this whiskey before I plunk down 30 plus dollars for a bottle.

Gillman
12-31-2006, 13:36
Good catch! That is one of the very few new rye whiskeys in America since the 1930's, i.e., made by a new distillery.

See www.templetonrye.com. The whiskey is a single barrel and has a lovely color. I suspect it is aged a couple of years or so. The still pictured seems to be a combination pot and column still.

There was a young rye whiskey put out in West Virginia some years ago by a gentleman who has since passed away (Rodney Facemire); to my knowledge the Tempelton rye is only the second new release of a rye whiskey since the 1930's, again in the sense of being made by a new distillery.

Who will be the first to review it?

Gary

Gillman
12-31-2006, 13:48
Together with the aforementioned rye whiskey from West Virginia and the forthcoming (very soon) Hudson Baby Bourbon of New York State, this new Tempelton rye inaugurates the era of micro-distilled bourbon and rye whiskey.

I am excited!

Gary

Virus_Of_Life
12-31-2006, 14:20
Pretty cool and a pretty nice website as well. Although I couldn't actually find the name of the company making Templeton, did you happen to see it Gary?

Only sold in Iowa right now... Well hopefully a bottle of it will make it's way to the Gazebo for the sampler this year.

Gillman
12-31-2006, 14:29
I did not see it Christian but because of the still shown, I have to assume (absent evidence to the contrary) Templeton rye is purpose-made, indeed craft made, and not sourced from an existing large distillery.

In the press section of the web site, the owner is identified as Scott Bush, 31 years old. The whiskey is in fact 4 years old. The report states the whiskey will be sold for now in Iowa and rolled out nationally later.

In effect (I am not sure if the label states this) this is a straight rye whiskey!

Gary

Virus_Of_Life
12-31-2006, 14:47
Also, I can't recall the exact meaning of the term "single malt" does that mean that this is 100% rye? Or that there is only one type of malted grain? Yeah I know I should know these things off the top of my head but I need to read up more and refresh the memory...

Gillman
12-31-2006, 14:50
It does say single malt in there.

Since this is a rye whiskey aged at least 4 years, it must be a straight rye, however.

Single malt probably means it is made from all-malted rye (or raw rye and malted rye, like Lot 40, however the designation "rye whiskey" ensures it is low-proof spirit, which Lot 40 may be too, but I don't know).

Gary

kbuzbee
01-01-2007, 07:41
to my knowledge the Tempelton rye is only the second new release of a rye whiskey since the 1930's, again in the sense of being made by a new distillery.


How about Old Potrero, Gary? It's pretty much a Rye (though very different)...

AND Happy New Year, y'all!

Ken

Gillman
01-01-2007, 07:52
Ken, you are right, I forgot about that. We must add Potrero to the list and indeed it was a trailblazer as the same company was in beer 40 years ago (Anchor Steam).

So we have in this new group:

Potrero straight rye
The West Virginia rye whiskey (can't recall name at the moment)
Templeton rye
forthcoming Hudson Baby Bourbon

Gary

kbuzbee
01-01-2007, 07:59
Potrero is funny though.... With a lot of things you can be in the mood for A but if you have B, that's okay too. Potrero is, to me, more like Tequila.... If you want something specific, it will not be a good substitute.... But if that's what you want, nothing else will do.

Hope your NYE was a good one.

Ken

TNbourbon
01-01-2007, 08:56
...The West Virginia rye whiskey (can't recall name at the moment)...

Isaiah Morgan.

cowdery
02-08-2007, 12:58
I apologize for not getting into this sooner, but Templeton Rye just popped up onto my radar screen for another reason.

The web site (http://templetonrye.com) is very nice and evocative, but suspiciously short on production details. Gary says he saw a picture of a still, but I can't find it and I think I looked at every page.

If you actually have a distillery, wouldn't you show it?

All it says about production is: "Templeton Rye is a single malt, single barrel rye whiskey of exceptional quality, but the recipe remains a secret outside of the company, regulators and the Western Iowa town where it was born."

As we know from experience, "secret recipe" usually means "phony," as in this is nothing more than a contract bottling. There isn't a sufficiently good label pic on the site to see what the label actually says, but "single malt" isn't really a regulated term. It should mean a 100% malt whiskey and since it also says "rye," that would mean 100% malted rye, but there is no guarantee that is what it really means, or that it means anything at all.

There is one person making whiskey from a 100% malted rye mash and that is Fritz Maytag (Anchor Distilling/Old Potrero).

Seeing a full label would tell us more, so maybe someone in Iowa could provide that. You don't necessarily have to buy a bottle. (Use the "macro" setting on your digital camera.)

Shoot the front and back.

I'm very suspicious about this product. Unless I see real evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume this is just a contract-bottling of rye whiskey produced by one of the usual suspects. The whole business model seems a lot like Conecuh Ridge.

Here's what someone who has tasted it had to say, "Murky gold color and good weight. This really reminds me more of bourbon, but it has a solid dry, rye at the end. Solid Fruit with a nice lengthy finish."

I found the picture below on Flickr and for all I know it was a prototype, i.e., it may not be the TTB-approved, now-in-stores label, but what it tells us comes from what is absent. No "single malt" and no "straight." Also no age statement, but in whiskeys less than four years old, the age statement usually is in mouse type on the back label.

We need to know a lot more about Templeton Rye before we get too excited.

Gillman
02-08-2007, 15:02
The still is there.

Look under the "History" button, you will see a pot still with a reflux column extension. It is described as having a capacity of 300 gallons and the whiskey is said to be made by "our master distiller". This suggests to me the whiskey is not contract-distilled unless it is contract-distilled by another small company which owns that still. That is possible I guess but even so it would still be a craft product.

I would think, given that the word straight is not part of the brand name (as far as I know), it is aged under 2 years.

It has a nice colour and I find the taste note reported by Chuck encouraging.

Gary

cowdery
02-08-2007, 19:46
My mistake. I see the picture now. Hummmm. That looks familiar. (http://www.bavarianbrewerytech.com/potstills/pages/products/distilleries/still2500.htm)

What do you know, it's lifted straight from the Bavarian Holstein Partners catalog. (BHP makes the eau de vie stills favored by so many American craft distillers. Which, in my opinion, are not pot stills.)

In other words, the picture they are presenting as "their" still is a catalog shot of "a" still from a German still manufacturer.

I'm more convinced than ever, Templeton is a contract-bottled bulk whiskey.

Phony, phony, phony-baloney.

barturtle
02-08-2007, 20:28
I pulled up the TTB app. No age statement. No distilled by statement.

There are 3 apps. One for a blended rye, one for a 10% rye 90% cane and one for a straight rye. Oddly the blended app also says single barrel?

TNbourbon
02-08-2007, 20:39
...10% rye 90% cane...

Hmmm -- Indian whisky from Iowa?:skep:

Gillman
02-08-2007, 20:44
Interesting, that German website lists about 15 American microdistillers as customers though, so their equipment clearly is well-known to U.S. craft distillers. No one in Iowa is listed, but the list is described as "some" of the customers.

My guess: either one of those micros is distilling for Templeton, or it has its own still but is not listed.

For me, the key is whether the product is craft-distilled, and either way, I would think it must be.

Gary

ILLfarmboy
02-09-2007, 00:13
My mistake. I see the picture now. Hummmm. That looks familiar. (http://www.bavarianbrewerytech.com/potstills/pages/products/distilleries/still2500.htm)

What do you know, it's lifted straight from the Bavarian Holstein Partners catalog. (BHP makes the eau de vie stills favored by so many American craft distillers. Which, in my opinion, are not pot stills.)

In other words, the picture they are presenting as "their" still is a catalog shot of "a" still from a German still manufacturer.

I'm more convinced than ever, Templeton is a contract-bottled bulk whiskey.

Phony, phony, phony-baloney.


Well, that's disappointing. I'm glad I didn't spend my hard earned cash on it. My first clue that something wasn't right was the fact it showed up on a local retailer's shelf. Around here if something new shows up on the shelves its something like Philip's Union Flavored Whiskey or some new gimmicky schnapps. Never Saz jr, or BTAC.

Gillman
02-09-2007, 05:30
Here's what I found from doing an Internet search last night, part of the info is from a Des Moines Register story of November 7, 2006. There is reference to a plant in Iowa, with an explanation of how the business was set-up and financed and its principal, and a picture of some people standing in front of what seems clearly to be an open wooden fermenting tank. In the back are two metal tanks which are probably water tanks. No still is shown in that particular photo but the story refers again to a 300 gallon still from which "clear" spirit is derived and then aged in wood and that the plant was full of wooden barrels. It seems to me from reading this story that the liquor was distilled and aged there, that's the impression I got. I think the DSP number, pictured on barrels shown in the launch party photos, is DSP-IA-15001. The Des Moines Register story states that the whiskey is 4 years old (so it would seem to qualify as a straight whiskey, even if not so termed on the label). Anyway that's all I could find so far apart from what the site states itself. I'd like to try this whiskey, clearly it is a new product and there isn't much information out yet, but I suspect it is a good dram of whiskey.

Gary

cowdery
02-09-2007, 13:07
One of Gary's most endearing qualities is his relentlessly rosy and hopeful outlook. Here is a "glass half full" guy if there ever was one.

But with regard to Templeton Rye, I think your faith is misplaced. They may well have a "facility." It may well have tanks and barrels in it. Yes, they have a DSP number, which is required for any "producer," even if that producer is merely a bottler.


It seems to me from reading this story that the liquor was distilled and aged there, that's the impression I got.

Which is, of course, exactly the impression they are working overtime to give you, but that doesn't make it true.

As for the whiskey itself, the absence of the word "straight" doesn't mean it isn't straight whiskey. Use of the term is optional, and the lack of an age statement suggests an age of at least four years old.

To me, all of the evidence points to this being standard rye whiskey made and aged at one of the Kentucky distilleries, possibly bottled in Iowa, but there is no assurance of that even.

But I am probably the poorer man for my cynical outlook.

cowdery
02-09-2007, 13:23
I pulled up the TTB app. No age statement. No distilled by statement.

There are 3 apps. One for a blended rye, one for a 10% rye 90% cane and one for a straight rye. Oddly the blended app also says single barrel?

Timothy passed these on to me, at my request (thank you), and one other point of interest is that the blend's label indicates that it contains 40% grain spirits (i.e., GNS). It also specifically says "bottled in Templeton on," with a space for a date.

What Timothy is calling "straight rye" does not, in fact, have the word "straight" on it. It is identical to the label in the picture already posted and probably is the product currently in the marketplace.

The 10% rye, 90% cane version I find interesting. It is attributed to a particular family, the Kerkhoffs. This sounds like an authentic moonshine recipe, i.e., mostly table sugar, with a little bit of rye for flavor.

All three applications were submitted in October of last year.

My assumption is that, as is often the case with these projects, the owners have a plan and intend to actually make spirits from scratch, in their own distillery, but to get some name recognition and cash flow going, they have acquired some existing whiskey from one of the usual suspects and are doing everything possible to give the impression that they made it themselves.

I salute entrepreneurship and consider that a reasonable way to launch such a venture, but I wish they would give the consumer more credit and just be honest about it.

Gillman
02-09-2007, 13:25
I just don't think this is Kentucky bulk whiskey: maybe it is though, I don't known for sure of course.

I guess we will have to wait until further facts are known from the source, i.e., the Templeton Rye Spirits company mentioned on the website.

Gary

Gillman
02-09-2007, 13:47
I guess that it is possible that barrels are dumped into the open wooden vat I saw in the picture for bottling. This wouldn't (I would think) apply to the single barrel rye whiskey, but it might apply to the other two products mentioned.

That vat might have multiple uses, too.

An interesting story it is, and I too support all such entrepreneurial efforts, they result one way or another in different products (e.g., those two blends at least) and if a Kentucky rye is being aged on site, aging in Western Iowa may impart a different quality than Kentucky aging. Even if no production is actually occurring on site, maybe it will one day, as Chuck said.

I do remain optimistic though that the rye whiskey that has been released was distilled in Templeton (or even elsewhere) in the still shown on the website; anyway, we will see.

Gary

cowdery
02-09-2007, 14:27
Remember, the "still shown on the website" is in a showroom somewhere in Germany, not in Iowa. "Their" still is not merely the same as the still in the picture, it is the exact same picture. They merely lifted a picture from the German still manufacturer's catalog.

If they have a still, in Iowa, in operation, why haven't they shown it? If they have a "master distiller," why haven't they named him or her? If they launched a distillery operation 4+ years ago, why did we only start hearing about it a few months ago?

As for the wooden tub (and I couldn't find the pictures you mention, so I'm relying on your description), it's possible there is some remnant of one of the prohibition-era facilities there, which would be a natural place to throw a launch party. Or, to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a wooden tub is just a wooden tub. There's no reason to believe it was used for anything other than as a prop for a picture.

Gillman
02-09-2007, 14:33
Just to clarify, the wooden tub wasn't in the launch party pictures. It was in the Des Moines Register story I mentioned, which was written months before the launch and was a straight business story. The picture of the still, well, I don't know, there could be many reasons why a stock picture (from the supplier) was selected. I wish I was better at linking things I find to this site. But search "Templeton rye + launch party" and those pics should come up. It looked like a nice party, with some people dressed in period (flapper) costumes. That is where that barrel was I saw, with the DSP number. As for the Des Moines Register story, I'll try to find it again but the date I gave was correct.

Gary

JDutton
02-09-2007, 17:14
Since it isn't too far from here, I'm kind of interested in Templeton Rye. Here's an interesting article about Templeton Rye from last November:


http://publications.iowa.gov/archive/00004327/01/November_10,_2006_e-News.doc#Eight
(http://publications.iowa.gov/archive/00004327/01/November_10,_2006_e-News.doc#Eight)

I'm not sure if this is the best way to add a link.
One interesting line in the article:
"The first batch of 5,000 cases has now been aged for four years."

Jeff

Gillman
02-09-2007, 17:30
Thanks Jeff, that is the Des Moines Register piece I meant (look under Iowa News, about Templeton giving rye a new shot).

If you live not far and decide to stop by the operation in Templeton, maybe you can ask them where the rye whiskey now on the market was distilled.

Gary

cowdery
02-09-2007, 18:49
I've read the story. I'm now convinced that there is a facility. The tanks in the background of the group photo look like dump tanks for a single barrel bottling line. The tubs can't be anything other than fermenters and look exactly like the ones David Beam got from Michter's, maybe a hair larger.

On the other hand, if Mr. Bush began "two years of research" in 2002, he simply didn't have time to make a fully aged rye by the Fall of 2006.

The "Kerkhoff Recipe," mentioned in the story, is the 10% rye, 90% cane "distilled spirit specialty" in the TTB package, and not the "rye whiskey" that is in stores now.

The article's description of the distillation process is, at best, muddled. "It starts in an uber still, a huge 300-gallon copper barrel where the clear liquid trickles through the methodical process - grain cooking, adding yeast, firing it to steaming hot and, finally, condensation. After the single-malt liquor is aged in a single white oak barrel, a fine amber is produced."

The words "single malt" appear on none of the TTB-approved labels.

I don't know what an "uber still" is supposed to be, but if you Google the term, you find a bulletin board discussion of the question, "is the word uber still cool." Clearly, this is "still" used in a different sense altogether, but the initial posting is amusing: "Lukethedj05-18-2006, 03:32 AM. May sound like a dumb question but im putting together a marketing strategy and Ad campaign for a company that wants to reach 20-somethings and was curious if that word in the ads would sound stupid. Is there any similar meaning words that would be better?"

The still volume of 300 gallons keeps getting repeated, but here is the manufacturer's description of the still pictured on the Templeton web site.

"This steam-heated pot still has a column with three bubble plates and a catalyzer. It includes a collecting tank for the end product and sensor-controlled alcohol pumps. It is best used for commercial production. Filling capacity of about 2,000 liters."

Two-thousand liters is, of course, 528.34 US gallons, not 300. I also note that a still of this design probably would not be capable of distilling from a mash, but only from a wash.

Bavarian-Holstein, by the way, is a partnership between a California manufacturer of brewery equipment and a German manufacturer of distillery equipment.

None of this new information has changed my assessment very much. Mr. Bush, like the good Sloan MBA that he is, is marketing his ass off. And playing a little fast and loose with the facts in the process. My conclusion is that he got his DSP a year ago, maybe two, bought some young rye from, probably, Heaven Hill, finished aging it in Iowa and once he got his labels approved, bottled up a few cases, and there we go. I find the "5,000 cases" figure hard to believe too, assuming the standard 9 liter case (a "flat" case in industry parlance), that's the output of 240 barrels.

I don't think so.

The number one problem with the theory that this is a genuine craft-distilled article is that it isn't that easy. As the old saying goes, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it, and there is a reason so few craft distillers are making real whiskey. It's hard. It takes somebody who know what they're doing. In short, it takes a Beam.

If Bush, in fact, has Kerkhoff or one of the other old moonshiners actually making the stuff now, making anything, why wouldn't they show pictures of it? Wouldn't you?

But still and all, with the caveat that I prefer people who tell the truth, more power to the guy. I genuinely hope he pulls it off.

Gillman
02-09-2007, 18:57
Well, the 4 year timing thing occurred to me too. Maybe the 4 year old rye whiskey in the stores now was sourced somewhere else with aging completed on site (maybe from another micro with a still as described on the website, or maybe not). Maybe whiskey is being produced on site now that is intended to go into one of the blends that was mentioned (e.g., the non-cane one) and also is being aged for release ultimately as a rye whiskey or straight rye. But the only way to know is to ask the people behind the operation...

Gary

cowdery
02-09-2007, 20:36
Following Tim's lead on the WR4G matter, I just emailed Templeton and pointed them here.

TNbourbon
02-09-2007, 22:25
While reading the Templeton posts in this thread the thought kept nagging me that we've covered some of this ground before. Sure enough, a search for "Templeton" finds a couple of previous threads on this very whiskey.
I find this one most telling, as it contains a link to an earlier business story, from June 2005:
http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43097&postcount=1
Stated are plans to break ground on a production facility 'next month', which would have been July 2005 -- thus, presumably, Templeton did no actual distilling (at least at that site) until a significantly later time. At the same time, if they already had now-4yo whiskey aging, it must have been distilled elsewhere.

Gillman
02-10-2007, 04:43
Thanks Tim. I do recall the earlier discussion. Of course, people often start a business, and production, in a small-scale way and then transfer it to purpose-designed facilities. So a number of things are possible here, including having the whiskey craft-distilled and aged by another small producer until the plant was financed and established.

Hopefully we will learn more but in any case I hope some SB-ers will purchase some of the rye that has been released and offer taste notes. 4 year old rye whiskey is always good to have around the house. The existing brands in that category are all different one from the other and I have a feeling Templeton rye will cut its own swath.

Gary

Gillman
02-10-2007, 06:08
In reading about Templeton rye as it was during Prohibition, both on the website of Templeton Rye Spirits and on the Internet generally, it really brings back what a different time it was between 1919 and 1933 in America. In fact, as for many States, Iowa had banned alcohol 4 years before Volstead became law.

In the 1800's, the lowa legislature made repeated efforts to ban alcohol or control it severely, sometimes jousting with the Supreme Court before its jurisdiction was clarified.

Of course, this was again in tune with the times and many other States had similar histories. I am not sure when local option was restored to Iowa after 1933. Clearly the sentiment against King Alcohol was as strong there as in many other places we have discussed on this board. Probably the rural regions, which would be most of the State, resisted re-introduction of beverage alcohol for some time after the U.S. Constitution was amended in 1933 to permit legal sale and consumption of alcohol.

It appears the Prohibition-era Templeton rye was associated with a number of farms and localities in the environs of Templeton, which is in the north west part of the State. From what I have read, it had a reputation for high quality and was "reddish". It was known across the nation in speakeasies and was often added to near beer to alcoholise it. I don't know if it was all the same in taste, probably any whiskey under this name had shared characteristics but varied depending on who made it. I wonder if it was some type of blend, again there were probably different types.

It is hard to believe that at one time, only two and a half generations ago, drinking culture in America was associated with subterfuge, thumbing of laws, and illicit-tinged glamour. Today, things are different but the fascination with the flapper era continues and the restoration of Templeton rye attests to it. It is a great concept and good business plan. I like a good marketing package no less than most, but of course I am hoping the whiskeys being introduced will taste great too.

Gary

JeffRenner
02-12-2007, 09:46
My first clue that something wasn't right was the fact it showed up on a local retailer's shelf.

That is surprising since their web site (http://templetonrye.com/findit.shtml) says that it is available only in Iowa.

I will label myself a "glass-half-full" kind of guy but also a skeptic. I share Chuck's doubts.

Their marketing is very clever - note the distressed label and what appears to be a tax strip (!). But this just raises a warning flag in my mind. All sizzle and no steak. All cackle and no eggs. Where's the beef?

I also hope they are producing a real product. But I suspect that anything they do produce start to finish on site is going to cost well north of $30 for a four-year-old product. After all, they look to be going for the impressionable, image-conscious drinker who spends way more than that for single malt scotch, and even for fancy (pure alcohol and water) vodka.

Jeff

ILLfarmboy
02-12-2007, 12:37
That is surprising since their web site (http://templetonrye.com/findit.shtml) says that it is available only in Iowa.

Jeff

I live not far from the Mississippi river. I spotted the Templeton rye At A Davenport IA. Hy-Vee grocery store; a little over 40 miles from home. Since I live in a rural area 40 miles is still local. I've yet to spot any on the IL. side of the river.

cowdery
02-17-2007, 14:57
I heard from Scott Bush, president of Templeton Rye, and we have exchanged a couple of emails. We still have a lot to talk about, but I thought I would pass along the following.

First, he invites anyone who is interested to come by for a tour. Just email him at info@templetonrye.com to make an appointment.

He concedes that "we did have product made by a third party (not a big player) while we were getting our distillery up and running and have said that publicly many times."

He also said, "that is indeed not our still on the website, the folks who put our site together must have just pulled that from somewhere. Our still is not nearly as pretty but is very functional. It is a 300 gallon insulated copper pot still."

He's going to send me a picture of it.

He also said, "we think this concept is a winner because people are sick of manufactured brands," so clearly his heart is in the right place.

Please don't ask me questions about anything else because I don't have the answers. He responds pretty promptly to email. I know he has viewed the site and maybe he'll post. He certainly would be welcome.

As I have said before, we want to be excited about these artisan products. We are ready to embrace them. Show us you've got the goods and we'll be your loudest advocates.

cowdery
02-21-2007, 11:37
Here's a picture Scott sent me of their still.

TnSquire
03-08-2007, 09:19
I like their still better. They need to put it into a location with more character though. So institutionalized.

So has anyone tasted it yet?

Martian
03-14-2007, 14:14
Fleischmann's Rye is still on the Barton Brands web site.

tlsmothers
03-15-2007, 22:00
I was told by Barton that they were doing away with Fleischman's. I have a bottle of the Templeton and it's quite good. It's fruity and sweet.

Tuthilltown Spirits that launched New York's first bourbon with us last December just came out with two ryes. Both 46%, 100% Canadian rye grain, aged around 4 months in tiny Missouri oak barrels, retail around $39 and bottled in 375ml bottles for Batch 1. The differences are:
"Government Warning" Rye: grassy and a bit hot. Only 200 bottles produced.
Hudson Manhattan Rye: fruity and perfect for a Manhattan cocktail. Around 600 produced. Mashbill included 20% peated rye.

Young and not "straight" but noteworthy. Ralph and Brian, the owners of Tuthilltown, have not bought spirit so forgive them for putting out young spirit. At least it's their's. Aging it in a small barrel does advance it a bit more than the standard Kentucky barrel (53 gallon?). They use a Holstein still. You can see pictures at http://www.lenells.com/gallery/album13

We're headed to Kentucky next month to select barrel #2 of Red Hook Rye. Hope to see some of y'all at the Sampler!

Let's the rye rock on!

CrispyCritter
03-15-2007, 22:39
I was told by Barton that they were doing away with Fleischman's.


:(

Looks like I'm going to need to take another trip to Wisconsin.

cowdery
08-21-2007, 11:27
Templeton Rye is launching this week in Chicago, with various activities including a tasting at Binny's and a party at the Double Door.

I don't care.

Am I wrong?

ILLfarmboy
08-21-2007, 13:11
Templeton Rye is launching this week in Chicago, with various activities including a tasting at Binny's and a party at the Double Door.

I don't care.

Am I wrong?

My first impression of Templeton Rye was "lackluster". But In fact I think I was a bit harsh in my review. I have since revisited the bottle on several occasions both neat and in a few Old Fashioneds and a couple Manhattans. It has grown on me, but not much. At 90 or 100 proof I think it would be more interesting especially in a Manhattan where at 80 proof it can be overpowered by the vermouth. I think Gary Gillman described Templeton Rye as "creamy" and I concur. If you are a rye man I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but it's nothing to go nuts about.

Gillman
08-21-2007, 13:32
Yes I liked it, I thought it had its own, somewhat mild, profile.

Gary

cowdery
08-21-2007, 15:04
About my only interest in Templeton at this point is the still interesting and unanswered question of who made it. It is a good to very good, well matured straight rye. Is it, at $35, better than Rittenhouse Rye BIB at $13? No, no, no, and it may, in fact, be the same whiskey. That, at least, is one of the possibilities.

So, who could it be? Who makes conventional straight rye? (The "conventional" is to deliberately exclude OP from the discussion.)

Brown-Forman (DSP 354) for Heaven Hill, i.e., Rittenhouse and Pikesville.
Wild Turkey for Wild Turkey Rye
Buffalo Trace for Sazerac Rye
Jim Beam for Jim Beam Rye and Old Overholt
Barton for Fleischmann's.

It has to be one of those five, doesn't it? Who am I missing?

Gillman
08-21-2007, 15:11
My guess would be youngish Beam-distilled rye of the type made for Heaven Hill.

A recent, 3 year old Pikesville struck me as somewhat similar to the Templeton.

Gary

cowdery
08-21-2007, 15:15
To the best of my knowledge, Beam has not made any rye for Heaven Hill. The Heaven Hill ryes have been made by Brown-Forman ever since the fire.

Gillman
08-21-2007, 15:22
Oops, correction gratefully received. And so I meant, rye made at B-F for HH, or that style of rye.

Gary

cowdery
08-21-2007, 17:18
I thought that might be what you meant, because I concur with that assessment. I think there's a very good chance it is that whiskey, either sourced through Heaven Hill or directly from B-F.

Gillman
08-21-2007, 17:37
It's got the characteristic mildness, Chuck, seemingly of 3-4 year old whiskey selected (in recent years anyway) for Pikesville. Rittenhouse seems to get a richer, older profile especially of course for the Bonded version, which I believe is in fact 6 years old vs. 4 even for the 80 proof Rittenhouse.

Gary

cowdery
08-21-2007, 21:06
We are in complete accord.

ThomasH
08-22-2007, 19:20
If the Templeton rye was cheaper and stronger than 80 proof, I would go for it. I can get 2 bottle of WT 101 rye off the shelf here for 38.00 or even have 2 bottles of Rittenhouse BIB shipped in from Binnys for just a few dollars extra than the cost of one bottle of Templeton!

Thomas

Gillman
08-23-2007, 07:54
The Templeton rye released to date was sourced from another distiller pending full aging and release of the company's own-make. However it (the current one on the market) may have been stored for an additional period on the company's premises, whcih might give it a character somewhat different from the 3-4 year old straight rye profile we were discussing. They seem related, is all I can say, and in trying to figure out the source of the Templeton, I think B-F's facility may be it but of course I don't know. But again I do find (price apart for a moment) the Templeton a very nice drink of rye, and I am really looking forward to the day it releases whiskey fully distilled and aged on its site.

Gary

drli
11-15-2007, 18:28
Tonight, I opened a bottle of Templeton Rye, that I purchased from binnys a few weeks back. To me it has a nose of dill weed, and a finishing taste of ripe banana. I tried it next to a pour of Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye that I opened 2 nights ago. Side by side I prefer the Van Winkle for its spicy nose and taste, the Templeton Rye lacks all of this. For the money, I will buy the Van Winkle Rye everytime. I also like baby Sazerac and BIB Rittenhouse, more. Templeton tastes is nothing like I had before, so I can not help with were the sprit was born. But it made me think about tasting the Hirsch Ryes for some reason, which I also didn't like.

mgilbertva
11-16-2007, 11:35
Good info ... thanks!

HipFlask
11-17-2007, 10:59
Well Templeton Rye is how I came across this site. I picked up a 2 bottles on my way to Missouri. I drank 1 and put one in the bunker. I was at the time of that bottle impressed. Very smooth and easily drinkable neat. It allowed me to lose the ice. However, in 10 months since it has become a distant memory as I have been exploring other bourbons and ryes. I have since picked up another bottle to revisit this spirit. I too am disappointed with the fact that it is only 80 proof. Basil Hayden's is the same way good stuff but it could be better for the price if it came in 100 proof verison. It will be interesting to find out how it stacks up against the likes of Rittenhouse BIB, VWFRR 13yr, WT101 or even WT RRR 90 as I have many of these around and my taster is much more in tune now then when I last had some Templeton Rye.

shoshani
11-18-2007, 12:34
Brown-Forman (DSP 354) for Heaven Hill, i.e., Rittenhouse and Pikesville.


Thanks, Chuck, for posting the DSP for B-F. I have a bottle of Rittenhouse BIB that I bought a year, maybe two ago (I'm a slow drinker, shoot me :) ) and its label information says it's distilled at DSP KY 31, bottled by Continental Distilling, Bardstown. May I assume that the whiskey in this bottle is pre-fire HH stock? (If it is, that would mean that either the whiskey is considerably more than 4 years old, or that the brand was a "sleeper" at the time I bought it...which, come to think of it, it really was :) )

For that matter, is the current rye whiskey made at B-F for HH made by Parker or Craig Beam, the way all HH whiskey was done between the fire and their acquisition of Bernheim?

craigthom
11-18-2007, 19:39
The bottle of Rittenhouse BIB I purchased a couple of weeks ago says DSP-KY 354.

cowdery
11-19-2007, 09:38
Although we have seen some brands that seemingly have made labeling "mistakes," the Rittenhouse BIB labels seem to be reliable, in that if you have one that says DSP-31 it probably was made at Bardstown, not at BF.

The whiskey being made by BF for HH is being made to HH's specifications, under the supervision of Craig Beam, primarily, as it's like pulling teeth to get Parker to drive to Louisville. HH is having BF make some of its whiskey because Bernheim doesn't have enough capacity, a problem they are in the process of correcting.

Gillman
11-19-2007, 11:10
Maybe this is a good place to ask a question I've been thinking about.

Can it be that a new spirit distilled at, say, B-F, shipped in a tanker truck to the HH warehouse, entered in barrels there and aged 4 years there or more, can be legally DSP-31 bonded whiskey if it was distilled in one season by one distiller at one distillery (which generally new make would be) and bottled at 100 proof in bond? Or does the whiskey have to be distilled at the place where it is entered in the barrel to be bonded? I tried to find the legal provisions which define bonded whiskey but cannot. I see references to bonding in the ATF standards of identity and they in turn refer (I think) to the Internal Revenue Code, but I can't in the latter find where bonding is discussed in relation to whiskey (as opposed to general taxation of distilled spirits, transfers of same between bonded warehouses and certain other matters).

I have a similar question in relation to non-bonded whiskey: is it possible to say a whiskey is made or produced (but not distilled as such) at a given distillery if it was entered in barrels and aged its whole life there as in my example above? Some whiskeys, not bonded, indicate a registered distillery where they are produced but do not state in so many words they are distilled there.

Gary

Rughi
11-20-2007, 09:21
Although we have seen some brands that seemingly have made labeling "mistakes," the Rittenhouse BIB labels seem to be reliable, in that if you have one that says DSP-31 it probably was made at Bardstown, not at BF.

Chuck,
We know that isn't the case. As played out on sb.com in December of 2005 in this thread (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3986&page=2&highlight=rittenhouse) Heaven Hill had produced Rittenhouse at Brown Forman for almost 9 years before they realized they had a non-compliant label and should order new labels. Post 50 is where I speculated about the label mystery.

Upon reading that, our own Bettye Jo went to talk about it with Larry Kass, who responded in Post 55. Sometime later on another forum John Lipman alerted people to the new dsp 354 labelling showing up on bottles.

So, HH made "mistakes" with the dsp numbers, but I don't think anyone is trying to say they were trying to be sneaky.

Roger

cowdery
11-20-2007, 21:15
Thanks, Roger. I had forgotten about all that.

As for Gary's question, Mike Veach has speculated that, using that scenario, one could use the DSP of the facility where the whiskey was entered and aged. The words "distilled at" couldn't be used, but those specific words don't appear to be required. On the other hand, is the word "produced" ambiguous, or would most people consider it to be synonymous with "distilled."

One could always write to the TTB and ask them. They're supposed to regulate the industry in our interest.

After this first came up, I asked Craig Beam that specific question and he said they are not doing that. He couldn't speculate as to whether or not one could, he's a distiller, not a lawyer.

Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me if the anomalous JTS Brown BIB labels that have been observed are another example of out-of-date label stock being used, although you would think that by now they would have purged anything with DSP-31 on it.

Gillman
11-21-2007, 05:17
I can only add that "produced" might be interpreted by some - and interpretations may vary unless a uniform practice is required, presumably by the regulator - to mean distilled under contract. Take the case where company X hires another still in which to distill bourbon white dog. Assume further the distilled spirit is immediately returned to company X for entering in the barrel and aging at its warehouse.

That whiskey arguably is distilled or at least produced by company X, whose name (or trade name) then is the one which would appear as the producing and warehousing distillery on the label. The question then would be what is the number of the distillery at which it is produced, since that must be stated on the label too. Well maybe some people (at least at some times) have felt that it is company X's plant or distillery's number since company X is responsible for the production and owns the output. If company X has more than one plant or distillery (more than one DSP), it might be the number of the plant or distillery mainly responsible for the production and this might be where the goods were entered and stored. Reading the legislation as printed on the other thread, these last speculations might go a bit too far, I would have thought in the case of production off-site under contract the distillery where the spirit is produced is where it was actually distilled albeit the distiller, distilling company and distilling season are those of company X. Still, I can't rule out this other reading.

Anyway, it is interesting to read the bonding rules and speculate how they might be interpreted in different scenarios. I think because they are in the labelling section I just didn't think to look there before Timothy posted them!

Gary

cowdery
11-22-2007, 00:56
What you have described in your first paragraph is exactly what Heaven Hill is doing with Rittenhouse but they are interpreting "produced" to mean "distilled," are using the word "distilled" on their label, and are identifying DSP 354 -- the distillery -- as the point of production. Looking at how someone actually does something is often a pretty good way of getting a feel for what the regulators are requiring.

The thing is, there are so few BIBs that it seldom comes up.

We have no examples of the alternate interpretation you describe. Regulations are always subject to different interpretations. The word "vegetable" can be interpreted as describing catsup (famous Reagan-era ruling). But all the evidence we have says we're supposed to expect a bottled-in-bond label to tell us the DSP of the plant where the whiskey was distilled, not where it was entered into barrels.

Gillman
11-22-2007, 03:52
I think you are probably right and perhaps the subsisting cases you have mentioned stating a DSP which is not apparently the distilling entity can be explained by using up of old label stock, a practice which may have been approved administratively by the regulator. However Mike mentioned that case some years ago he was familar with where an apparent purchase of bulk goods entered and aged at a distillery's warehouse was considered DSP goods of the receiving distillery. I think in other words what may have happened is it was - and still is - possible to argue the full validity of this alternate reading but perhaps under guidance from regulators or because of an emerging industry consensus people will move to a uniform way of doing it. It doesn't mean the apparent non-conforming labels and this older practice are non-conforming, there is an argument I think that they were and are valid but perhaps to avoid an issue being raised the companies are moving to identify the actual distilling entity on the label where the goods were produced under contract or bought in bulk.

Gary

shoshani
11-22-2007, 09:23
What you have described in your first paragraph is exactly what Heaven Hill is doing with Rittenhouse but they are interpreting "produced" to mean "distilled," are using the word "distilled" on their label, and are identifying DSP 354 -- the distillery -- as the point of production. Looking at how someone actually does something is often a pretty good way of getting a feel for what the regulators are requiring.

See, that's the wording on my bottle of now-perhaps-erroneously-labeled Rittenhouse...it says "distilled" by DSP31, not produced. (The code on the back label is L1615 - if anyone knows HH's coding system, it would tell me when it was bottled, which should be four and no more than six years after distillation, which would then make it clear whether it was made in Bardstown or at Early Times.)

By contrast, I've seen BIB Old Taylor bottlings from around 1980 that state on the back of the bottle "Distlled by The Old Taylor Distillery Company DSP Ky. 19 / Distributed by National Distillers Products Co. / Bottled at DSP Ky. 14". I'm assuming that DSP 14 was either Crow or Grand-Dad.

barturtle
11-22-2007, 10:08
See, that's the wording on my bottle of now-perhaps-erroneously-labeled Rittenhouse...it says "distilled" by DSP31, not produced. (The code on the back label is L1615 - if anyone knows HH's coding system, it would tell me when it was bottled, which should be four and no more than six years after distillation, which would then make it clear whether it was made in Bardstown or at Early Times.)



June 9, 2005.

boone
11-22-2007, 11:12
June 9, 2005.

Not necessarily so...

It could be 1995. You have to compare the bottom bottle date with the julian. Another good indicator of a older experssion would be the label...it's different.

cowdery
11-22-2007, 14:42
However Mike mentioned that case some years ago he was familar with where an apparent purchase of bulk goods entered and aged at a distillery's warehouse was considered DSP goods of the receiving distillery.

No reference was made in Mike's account to labeling for BIB purposes.

Gillman
11-22-2007, 14:56
That is what I thought he meant or implied since he indicated in a thread called "What Is Bonded Exactly?" that bulk whiskey tanked to a distillery for entering and aging would be given the DSP number of the receiving distillery or plant. If it was given that number, I thought he was saying he understood that number could therefore appear on bottles of its bonded whiskey as being the plant or registered distillery where it was produced. Maybe I misread him, Mike, can you clarify?

Gary

barturtle
11-22-2007, 20:20
Not necessarily so...

It could be 1995. You have to compare the bottom bottle date with the julian. Another good indicator of a older experssion would be the label...it's different.

This is true, I used your own code breaker to give this date. I simply assumed he had the current-style front label.

shoshani
11-22-2007, 22:17
This is true, I used your own code breaker to give this date. I simply assumed he had the current-style front label.

I'm almost positive that I do. Dark brown label, "Rittenhouse" is in a straight line in serif type; the R and E are larger and the tail of the R connects to the bottom line of the E by a wavy line that also hits the bottom of N, H, and O. A barrel on its side has "Straight RYE Whisky" on its end, with Rye in huge cursive script while "straight" and "whisky" (no e, by the way) in sans-serif caps.

I assume that's enough detail to pinpoint the label. However, the code on the bottom of the bottle (thanks, Bettye Jo, I didn't think to check THAT) is

03 11 091 5 2337

At this point I'm basically trying to determine when the contents were distilled, which at a 2005 bottling I would assume would be 2001. (For reasons way too complex to get into here, but I'll be asked about anyway ;), I avoid HH products distilled before 1996 or so. Don't take it personally, blame my religion...)