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jbutler
07-11-2001, 00:55
From the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 5 LABELING AND ADVERTISING OF DISTILLED SPIRITS, Sec. 5.22:

" (1)(i) ``Bourbon whisky'', ``rye whisky'', ``wheat whisky'', ``malt
whisky'', or ``rye malt whisky'' is whisky produced at not exceeding 160 deg.
proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye,
wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at
not more than 125 deg. proof in charred new oak containers; and also
includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type."

Am I to construe what I'm reading here as saying that a bourbon can consist of at least 51% of any of the mentioned grains?
So A bourbon could consist of at least 51% rye, in lieu of corn?


I've seen quite a few posts about what a "straight" bourbon is; the following relates to that subject:

" (iii) Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs
(b)(1)(i) and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type
of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be
further designated as ``straight''; for example, ``straight bourbon
whisky'', ``straight corn whisky'', and whisky conforming to the
standards prescribed in paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this section, except that
it was produced from a fermented mash of less than 51 percent of any one
type of grain, and stored for a period of 2 years or more in charred new
oak containers shall be designated merely as ``straight whisky''. No
other whiskies may be designated ``straight''. ``Straight whisky''
includes mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the
same State."

Cheers,

Jim Butler
Straightbourbon.com

jbutler
07-11-2001, 09:12
I made that post after about a 14 hour day. The word "respectively" eluded me for some reason.
Bourbon has to be >= 51% corn, rye whiskey >= 51% rye, etc. That's really quite interesting, I was unaware that the same rule held for all these whiskey types.

It's amazing what 8 hours of sleep can do for you!

Cheers,

Jim Butler
Straightbourbon.com

kitzg
07-11-2001, 13:06
While it is not relevant to bourbon-only drinkers a similar 51% applies to tequila (you knew I'd sneak this in somehow, Jim). Tequila must be at least 51% blue agave (Weber variety) but the 'good stuff' (defined as anything I'd touch) is 100% blue agave. The remaining 49% (in brands like Cuervo Especial, for example -- the #1 seller but I won't drink it) is 49% cane sugar according to my sources.

Okay, now we can go back to bourbon -- sorry for the digression into my other favorite spirit! Hmmm...wonder about 51% blue agave and 49% rye....

jbutler
07-11-2001, 14:26
Greg,
I have some hispanic neighbors who are almost as into tequila as I am into bourbon. I took a bottle of WT KY Spirit over and turned them on to it. A few weeks later, they invited me over for some tequila tasting. I had a few brands I cant remember the name of, but the one we heartily consumed was called "Herraduro" or some such, with a blue and silver label ... what's the story on that stuff? Smooth as glass, but went down too much like spring water for my tastes.
That's why I try to avoid Coors while drinking beer -- it's like water with alochol in it. Next thing you know, you're talking out the side of your face and wondering how the hell you got there.

Cheers,

Jim Butler
Straightbourbon.com

kitzg
07-12-2001, 12:27
Tequila Herradura is a very fine brand and I think each of their tequilas is excellent. They are all 100% blue agave. They also make El Jimador which is a very fine lower cost tequila. Compared to any Cuervo label I prefer Herradura in each class. The Reposado (slightly aged) is one of the bottles I brought back from Mexico this year. By the way this product is imported to the US by Sazerac -- so indeed some of the finest products in spirits come from Sazerac. (http://www.herraduratequila.com/)

Blackkeno
10-14-2001, 22:01
But I thought "corn whisky" had to be 80% from corn? Was this somewhere else in the regs?

**DONOTDELETE**
10-15-2001, 05:16
Same place. It's the upper limit. That is, 51% corn is needed for bourbon whiskey but if you go over 79% you can't call it "bourbon" anymore, you have to call it "corn whiskey".

=John=
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey>http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey</A>

jbutler
10-15-2001, 10:48
You can view the regs here: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.straightbourbon.com/27cfr5.pdf>http://www.straightbourbon.com/27cfr5.pdf</A>

Cheers,

Jim Butler
Straightbourbon.com

**DONOTDELETE**
10-15-2001, 18:04
John,
Corn whiskey has to be 80% corn but there is no upper limit to corn on bourbon. I know of one bourbon (actually it was two but one of the brands was sold to Buffalo Trace so they have changed the mash bill) that uses 83% corn 8% rye and 9% malt. As a matter of fact its high content of corn was used as a selling point in Japan.
Mike Veach

**DONOTDELETE**
10-15-2001, 19:28
Mike are you talking about Old Charter?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

**DONOTDELETE**
10-15-2001, 21:44
Mike,
I was not aware of that. The writers I learned from (well, Mark Waymack & Jim Harris anyway) say there's a limit of 80%, but what you say is true; I looked it up. So does that mean that if you age straight corn whiskey in new, charred oak barrels for two years (which you can't legally do and still call it "corn whiskey") it would qualify as straight bourbon? Hmmmm... STRAIGHTBOURBON.CORN

=John=
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey>http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey</A>

cowdery
10-16-2001, 13:17
Sec. 5.22(b)(2) states, in part, "Whisky conforming to the standard of identity for corn whisky must be designated corn whisky."



<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cowdery.home.netcom.com>--Chuck Cowdery</A>

**DONOTDELETE**
10-16-2001, 15:54
John,
I would say you are right as long as there was a third grain involved. If it was just corn and malt then it would be aged corn whiskey.
Mike Veach

**DONOTDELETE**
10-16-2001, 16:03
Linn,
Good guess about the brand sold to Buffalo Trace. They may change this formula back to what it was in the 70's and I hope they do. The other brand is of course I W Harper. Before U.D. bought Schenley in the late 1980's the master distiller at Bernheim changed the formula to get rid of as much rye as he thought possible. He did not like rye because it gummed up the stills more than corn so if he had had his way there would be no rye and very little malt. Ed Foote mentioned the Harper mash bill to me at the academy while Chuck was explaining the definition of bourbon but we decided Chuck was doing such a good job we did not want to interupt him. He was on a roll and we did not want to place the brake on him. I meant to bring it up later but I must have got side tracked.
Mike Veach

**DONOTDELETE**
10-17-2001, 10:51
OK Mike that's good information. Just what was the original Harper/Charter mashbill? I like the Old Charter 12 year old 'Classic 90' and the 13 year old 'Propietor's Reserve'. Which masbill were these distilled from?

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. Will Travel.

johnrobe
10-17-2001, 11:43
<html>
I really got turned on to good Tequila during the years I lived in Texas. It's my second favorite spirit, after Bourbon of course. Many restaurants in Dallas have extensive Tequila lists like most restaurants have wine lists. My personal favorite is El Tesoro (Anejo). Unfortunately, as I'm sure you know, with the current blue agave shortage tequila prices have skyrocketed. That bottle of El Tesoro that cost me $32 two years ago now cost about $50.
A couple of good sites for Tequila enthusiasts are: http://www.tequilafancy.com/
http://www.tequilaaficionado.com/ (http://www.tequilaaficionado.com/index.php)
</html>

Speedy_John
10-17-2001, 20:48
John:

Are you talking about El Tesoro de Don Felipe Anejo? If so, I agree with you on its qualities. It is an excellent tequila. Dangerously smooth.

SJ

johnrobe
10-18-2001, 11:37
SJ,

That's the one! I suppose one thing that makes El Tesoro de Don Felipe so good is that it's aged in American bourbon barrels. It'd be interesting to know which bourbon distillery is supplying them with barrels. Does anyone on this board keep track of where the used barrels go?

JR

cowdery
10-18-2001, 15:30
All of the bourbon distilleries resell their barrels because, by law, they can only use them once. Consequently, Kentucky and Tennessee supply the rest of the world with barrels. Everyone uses them.

It probably would be impossible to determine which distillery is supplying this Tequila maker unless they had a particular relationship and the Tequila maker wanted to promote the source. For the most part, used bourbon barrels are sold to an intermediary (which may be owned by a distillery but operates independently and may buy from several distilleries) that grades the barrels and breaks them down into flats for shipment.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cowdery.home.netcom.com>--Chuck Cowdery</A>

**DONOTDELETE**
10-23-2001, 17:00
Linn,
When I was at U.D. it was still the old mash bill on the 12 and 13 Year old products but I would say that is not true now unless they are using real old whiskey for these products. The way I understood it the mash bill changed about 1985 or so.
Mike Veach