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BERNCOW
05-15-2006, 09:04
IN WHISKY MAGAZINE. ISSUE 55, I THINK IN CAME IN THE MAIL LAST WEEK-ON PAGE 60, UNDER THE TITLE "NEW RELEASES" THE FIRST OFFERING IS "LONGMORN BOURBON, 46% "PRODUCED IN SPEYSIDE. CAN ANYBODY EXPLAIN TO ME-OR THE COURTS- WHY THIS CAN BE LABELED A BOURBON?????????????????????? SPEYSIDE IS IN SCOTLAND STILL-IS IT NOT?? berncow-Rick

Hedmans Brorsa
05-15-2006, 10:03
IN WHISKY MAGAZINE. ISSUE 55, I THINK IN CAME IN THE MAIL LAST WEEK-ON PAGE 60, UNDER THE TITLE "NEW RELEASES" THE FIRST OFFERING IS "LONGMORN BOURBON, 46% "PRODUCED IN SPEYSIDE. CAN ANYBODY EXPLAIN TO ME-OR THE COURTS- WHY THIS CAN BE LABELED A BOURBON?????????????????????? SPEYSIDE IS IN SCOTLAND STILL-IS IT NOT?? berncow-Rick

Amazing, isn´t it? Apparently they found a loophole in US jurisdiction and imported a rickhouse built in Kentucky and, hey presto!, a Bourbon.

Seriously, Rick, I think this is a case of lazy printing. The full text should read Longmorn Bourbon cask. Longmorn is a Highland single malt . It has nothing to do with Bourbon.

cowdery
05-15-2006, 11:41
I agree that the reference to "bourbon" is to the cask. Though to ask a slightly different question, why do some single malts call out the fact that they are aged in bourbon casks when virtually all scotch is aged in bourbon casks? I can see calling out when they aren't, such as the Famous Grouse on the facing page that calls out Scottish Oak.

On the other hand, why do some American whiskeys put "sour mash" on their label when they are all sour mash? The answer, I suppose, is that you have to put something.

Hedmans Brorsa
05-16-2006, 04:27
I why do some single malts call out the fact that they are aged in bourbon casks when virtually all scotch is aged in bourbon casks?

Chuck,

I´m certainly no expert on this so I could be all wrong, but I think that Scotch which is 100 % Bourbon cask is much less dominant than you´d expect it to be.

If I understood it right, there are quite a few examples of Scotch that consists of, say, vattings of 80% Bourbon cask and 20% Sherry cask. Alternatively, the whisky sleeps in Bourbon casks for 12 years only to be transferred to a Sherrry one for the remaining two years or so.

Many distillers, I believe practise this, to inject som extra fizz (or whatever) into the whisky.

BarItemsPlus1
05-16-2006, 07:15
Well have I got one for you guys to think about...although it may have already been discussed, such as the WT Sherry(this I am still a little uncertain about if it has been finished in a sherry cask or had it actually added to the bourbon...??)....
Here in Oz we have - Jim Beam Small Batch Bourbon. It quite possibly is a true small batch however as US Law defines bourbon, this bottling is NOT!!
It has written on the label - WITH PORT ADDED
Here is a good case theory - Jim Beam in the US to sue Jim Beam in Oz.:slappin:

Here is a quote from a website retailing this bottle....

Jim Beam Small Batch Bourbon is a further extension of the four super premium Bourbons previously released by Jim Beam in the "Small Batch Bourbon Collection" – namely Bookers, Bakers, Knob Creek & Basil Haydens. Each Small Batch Bourbon is distinctively different. This unusual addition is hand bottled in limited quantities with some port added

Is this bottle in the US?? Or is it just an export for Oz?

elkdoggydog
05-16-2006, 09:30
I haven't seen it, though that does not mean it's not available. Is it... good?

Hedmans Brorsa
05-16-2006, 09:59
The Jim Beam port has actually been discussed quite a lot.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/showthread.php?t=4471&highlight=jim+beam+port

http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/showthread.php?t=2806&highlight=jim+beam+port

To my knowledge, it is only available in Australia. Possibly in New Zealand as well. I donīt know how much their markets overlap.

ThomasH
05-16-2006, 15:56
I have a bottle of WT sherry signature and it states on the label " enhanced with sherry". In addition, on a recent visit to Wild Turkey, I was told that this product has sherry added to it!

Thomas

BarItemsPlus1
05-16-2006, 18:37
Is it... good?

- Not sure, I will report back in a few hours:drinking:
I am going to go and get a bottle....


enhanced with sherry...
So it is confirmed then...?WT Sherry signature is not finished in sherry casks but has had sherry added.
In my personal opinion, I find this a bad practice! If distilleries want to release a variant to their whiskies, then I firmly believe that the only way a whisk(e)y should be varied is by the cask only!!
Why add other spirits, this only takes away from the actual product!!:smiley_acbt:

Attention All Whisk(e)y Producers....if you add another spirit other than the same spirit when blending/vatting, then it's NOT whisk(e)y!!!!

If WT wanted to release a 'sherry' variant, then they should have finished the whiskey in a sherry cask and not added it! I know that even still by US law this is not a bourbon, but it's a hell of a lot more bourbon then having sherry added!! Same goes for Jim Beam and their Port variant.

I can safely say that if I was a Master Distiller and the company bosses wanted me to do something like that, I would tell them to go and eat a nice big meal of :shithappens:

I don't want to offend any1(except the company owners!!), especially the Master Distillers!! I did read here that J. Russell was quite unhappy about the WT Sherry Signature, my only question is why did Jimmy let them go ahead and do it?
Anyway that's my 2 cents worth:grin:

cowdery
05-16-2006, 18:49
Most of the barrels used in Scotland are American oak that originally held bourbon. This is the practice because used bourbon barrels are the cheapest barrels you can buy, even including the cost of knocking them down, shipping them, and recoopering them.

Sherry casks, when they are used, are used as a finish, i.e., the whisky is transferred to the sherry casks for some brief period of time to complete its aging. In other words, sherry casks and other "exotic" casks are strictly used for finishing. The day-in-and-day-out wood used is Scotland is old bourbon casks.

Normally, what they call the first refill is with grain whiskey, which probably will be used for some kind of blend. This "de-bourbonizes" the barrel. The second and subsequent refills will be with malt. Barrels are used over and over, until they become so spent they start to lose physical integrity.

It is possible that the Longmorn single malt that started this discussion was aged or finished in a first refill bourbon cask, which would be unusual and worthy of note.

BarItemsPlus1
05-16-2006, 19:22
Ok...Chuck you intrigued me with your comment on the first whisky that enters the cask directly after the bourbon comes out, ie. being a grain whisky.
I have asked David Stewart from Glenfiddich if he can offer an insight into this.
For anyone that may not know David Stewart is the Master Blender at Glenfiddich.

cowdery
05-16-2006, 19:43
For the record, it was all explained to me this way by Alastair Robertson, Distillery Manager at Talisker. Yes, Alastair from Talisker.

gr8erdane
05-16-2006, 21:49
my only question is why did Jimmy let them go ahead and do it?

You have to remember that the Master Distillers are employees of the distillery, not the owners, and while their opinions do carry some weight, what the boss says goes. Evidently marketing studies were done and they were trying to fill a perceived niche in the market. We obviously were not the intended target market for this product but who's to say there isn't an equally large and influential group of loyal fans out there who LOVE it?

BarItemsPlus1
05-16-2006, 22:48
Yes I do understand that WT were either trying to temporarally fill a gap in the market or releasing an experimental product to gauge consumer response for a future product...??
I also do not doubt that their are consumers that do indeed enjoy this product. I myself think that the Jim Beam Small Batch we have could very well be a great - LIQUOR!

However I stand firm in my statement that if the liquid has any other spirit besides whisk(e)y and water added - IT'S NOT WHISK(E)Y!!

I am not taking away from these products at all, however I would prefer that company owners stick to the norm!

On a seperate note...The Australian Treasurery has just backed down on pressure from the Australian Distillers Assoc. and the public to keep the minimum age/maturation at 2yrs before the spirit is able to be legally defined as whisky. There are still moves to try and get this inline with the UK and obviously the US also, to have the law made at 3yrs.

BarItemsPlus1
05-17-2006, 02:36
Most of the barrels used in Scotland are American oak that originally held bourbon. This is the practice because used bourbon barrels are the cheapest barrels you can buy
- And the fact that they are only allowed to have bourbon in them once.


Normally, what they call the first refill is with grain whiskey...
- The distilleries use both malt and grain whiskies on the 1st re-fill. This is how over the years Master Distillers/Blenders have been able to keep their products consistant in their flavour profiles.
Remember that each whisk(e)y may have a different blend, ie. percentage ratio of single casks that go into a product. If the blenders used the exact same percentage each year the profile of the whisk(e)y would be different from batch to batch - and granted this does happen.


It is possible that the Longmorn single malt that started this discussion was aged or finished in a first refill bourbon cask, which would be unusual and worthy of note...

I am of the belief that majority single cask bottlings of scotch whisky, unless actually stated ie. Sherry/Port or other such cask, are indeed all bourbon barrels. At least this will be the growing trend as the Sherry casks become less available.

Hedmans Brorsa
05-17-2006, 04:20
I am of the belief that majority single cask bottlings of scotch whisky, unless actually stated ie. Sherry/Port or other such cask, are indeed all bourbon barrels. At least this will be the growing trend as the Sherry casks become less available.

Agreed, but at the same time it is important to point out that single cask bottlings constitute an extreme minority of all the single malt bottles that are available.

They may seem everyhere if you browse the contents of an online shop but each bottling seldom exceeds a quantity of, say, 300 bottles.

OscarV
05-17-2006, 14:38
refering back to the original post, as long as it does not say "Straight Bourbon", then it is OK. "Straight" is protected by intenational teaties as well as the 1964 law LBJ signed.
But in this case they are talking about the used barrles, they age the Scotch in.

cowdery
05-17-2006, 17:14
The federal standards of identity only apply within the U.S. The reciprocal agreements with the EU and NAFTA protect only certain specific, high level words, such as "bourbon" and "Tennessee Whiskey" in those countries, and not modifiers such as "straight." There may be other multilateral agreements, but I only know of those two. Therefore, just about anywhere else in the world the terms are up for grabs. Brand counterfeiting is a slightly different issue, but as for what we in the US call "standards of identity," barring an agreement, what those terms mean in the rest of the world is anybody's guess. It's a function of whether or not that jurisdiction has any "standards of identity" regulations, what they say, and whether or not they are enforced.