BOTM, 6/06: PVW 15yo

[jeff]

June's BOTM was decided by 75 of our members voting in a poll that included 5 flagship bourbons from Kentucky's finest distilleries. The winner brings to the BOTM the legacy of 3 generations of bourbon distillers. Though the name and packaging may have changed, no one disputes the quality of the contents. The pedigree is apparent in this most recent addition to the family. By popular demand, this month's BOTM is:

Pappy Van Winkle 15yo

Discussion of the previous incarnation of this bourbon, ORVW 15yo, is not only allowed, but encouraged for comparative exposition.


:893drillsergeant-thSound off:893drillsergeant-th

[hookfinger]

I may not be as articulate as some here in the matter of tasting notes but I'll start. I never really had the opportunity to purchase ORVW 15, or I passed it by without conscience thought. Which is too bad because I really like this one. My state store doesn't carry this particular expression so I was pleased when I found it on my travels. When I got back home and tasted it though, I was bowled over. Ithink this may be as close to perfection as I have ever tasted. Because I can't get it all the time, I tend to savor every pour with extra attention. If you were keeping an eye on me at the Tasting, you would have noticed that I made my way back to the Van Winkle table a couple of times for this at the expense of overlooking some of the others.
Hopefully someone will point something out in this discussion that will make that light bulb go off over my head and I'll remark "Yeah, that's exactly it!" Til then I'll sit here in anticpation of getting off work this evening and having a drink of what has become my favorite bourbon, yet.

[BourbonJoe]

I never really had the opportunity to purchase ORVW 15, or I passed it by without conscience thought. Which is too bad because I really like this one. My state store doesn't carry this particular expression so I was pleased when I found it on my travels.

You missed the boat Hook. Pennsylvania not only had it but sold it for 28 bucks. That was about a year ago. I bought all I could afford. Not to worry though, I saw some fairly recently in Maryland, so it's still around.
Joe :usflag:

[scopenut]

As PVW 15yr has replaced ORVW 15yr, is the former a limited release in any way? It's somewhat available here in FL, but not easy to get (true of many upper end brands). I was wondering if there's any point to stockpiling the PVW 15, or if it is/will be generally available.

Thanks.

Kevin

[bluesbassdad]

Kevin,

In my experience all of the Van Winkle products are, in a sense, limited, and that's not just some marketing strategy. It's a fact of life. Not much is produced. Distribution is uneven. Its fans tend to snap it up wherever and whenever they find it.

If PVW 15 is your favorite, and if your tastes tend to remain reasonably constant, then by all means buy all you can afford and store. From what I've read here it's my belief that this is so-called "old-stock" bourbon; the distillery that produced it is no longer in operation. Whatever Julian comes up with to replace it down the line will be good, but it won't be the same.

How I wish I had stocked up on ORVW 10/107 (or the identical Old Commonwealth, which was a couple of bucks cheaper) back when it was Stitzel-Weller bourbon. However, by the time I learned enough to know such things, the SW stock was no more -- replaced in that bottling by product from Bernheim (or so I have read).

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

[scopenut]

Thanks, Dave.

Being a relative newbie, I'm still trying to decipher the whole S/W, Bernheim, Buffalo Trace provenance thing. So was ORVW 15 a S/W product, and the PVW 15 is Bernheim? Or am I (most likely) still confused? Sorry if this is in the FAQ/archives.

Kevin

[bluesbassdad]

{Hey, Chuck . . . HELP!}

A while back Chuck Cowdery covered much of the relevant information all in one place in his newletter, The Bourbon Country Reader.

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy readily at hand.

However, my recollection, perhaps from some other source, is that the provenance (I must look up that word) of PVW 15 is unspecified. IRRC, Julian has declined to state its source here.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

[Rancastle]

As PVW 15yr has replaced ORVW 15yr, is the former a limited release in any way? It's somewhat available here in FL, but not easy to get (true of many upper end brands). I was wondering if there's any point to stockpiling the PVW 15, or if it is/will be generally available.

Thanks.

Kevin
Stitzel Weller closed the doors in 1992. If you do the math, the 15 yr old is almost gone. Julian told me last year there might be 500 cases each of the last couple years. I'm sure he & Preston will continue to have great whiskey long after the S/W is gone. I can tell you I've stock up on anything Stitzel Weller!!!

[scopenut]

So were both ORVW 15 and PVW 15 from Stitzel Weller, or just ORVW 15? If the latter, where is/was PVW 15 produced?

Sorry if I'm being dense here, just trying to learn.

Kevin

[doubleblank]

I'm having a little PVW 15 this evening in respect of its choice as BOTM. I like it....as I liked the ORVW 15. This one seems a little drier on the finish....perhaps not as sweet a finish as I recall the ORVW 15. My guess is that it is ageing a little differently now that its in BT's rickhouses and not Julian's old location. It has the richness....but a little more wood to me.

Randy

[scopenut]

That's interesting, Randy. I can't compare to ORVW 15, which I've never experienced, but I had my first taste of PVW 15 tonight, and found lots of maple syrup, both in the body and in the finish. Nose was vanilla and raisins to me. Excellent stuff!

Kevin

[Nebraska]

As someone stated before, I'm probably not the biggest fan of Pappy 15. Don't hate it, but there's just others that I prefer much more, namely Pappy 20...yum...for that matter ORVW 10/107 (current edition that is).

I'm gonna do a side by side of ORVW 15 and Pappy 15 and report back.

[bluesbassdad]

Thanks to my unofficial midwestern connection I found two bottles of PVW15 in my closet this evening. One is now down to the 3/4 mark. No serious tasting tonight, but then again I wasn't totally oblivious, either.

I found the intensity of the first few sips overwhelming (and that from a wheater, Gary!). The nose was very pleasant at full strength, but I needed to tone down the palate. I think the flavor element that I found to be excessive was barrel char. I made no effort to measure the water I added. One gurgle wasn't quite enough, so I added one more.

The amount of water that allowed the bourbon to display its palate in a more laid-back manner was detrimental to the nose. Perhaps this bourbon must be served in two glasses to be enjoyed fully. Nose one; then sip the other. :grin:

During future sessions I'll try to tease out some flavor elements.

Oh, and I still prefer the squat bottles with the antique-looking label.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

[Hedmans Brorsa]

So were both ORVW 15 and PVW 15 from Stitzel Weller, or just ORVW 15? If the latter, where is/was PVW 15 produced?
Kevin

Seek and ye shall find. Posted by Julian, february this year :

I'm telling you guys, the whiskey in the 15-year Pappy is the same as the ORVW 15-year.So why drive yourselves nuts looking for these old botles!
However the 15-year is very limited. We only have about 500 cases to sell worldwide each year.
Julian

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

I didn't vote for this because it doesn't appear on the shelves around here. But the BOTM is the BOTM. I may have to actually order from one of the excellent websites here in Japan instead of just lurking them.
Ed

[cas]

This continues to be my overall favorite - though I did prefer the squat bottle with Old Rip on the label. Either way it's a dense, aromatic pour with a great interaction of caramel and wood. However, our local distributor has recently raised the price from about 36 to 49 dollars.
Craig

[scopenut]

$49 here in Florida, if you can find it.

Kevin

[Ambernecter]

I voted for Booker's but any VW offering is gonna be tough to beat.

I have said before I prefer the 10YO 107, but despite a slightly dry finish the 15YO is a top notch whiskey and a firm fave of most people on this here forum.

Rightly so... it is super whiskey but Hellish on the price front in England!

[OscarV]

. Pennsylvania not only had it but sold it for 28 bucks. That was about a year ago.
Joe :usflag:

Wow! $28.00,
Last summer I got a bottle of ORVW 15yo. and paid $62.00. Michigan is at the tops as far as alcohol tax goes.
Now get this, the guy tells me then that it is their last bottle and they will no longer make it. And me being the geek that I am still haven't opened it.
But I will before I die.

Written in at the top of the bottom label is "No N 131" anyone know what that means?

Oscar

[gr8erdane]

And me being the geek that I am still haven't opened it.
But I will before I die.

"Eat, drink and be happy for tomorrow we may die"

Not sure if that is the actual quote but it sums it up for this "just open the bottle" nut.:slappin:

[cas]

Wow! $28.00,
Last summer I got a bottle of ORVW 15yo. and paid $62.00. Michigan is at the tops as far as alcohol tax goes.
Oscar

Great. I'm moving to Michigan in a couple of weeks...
Craig

[BourbonJoe]

Written in at the top of the bottom label is "No N 131" anyone know what that means?

Oscar

The Van Winkles numbered their bottles, but it is a meaningless numbering system. I guess it just makes it look more authentic Oscar.
Joe :usflag:

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

I didn't vote for this because it doesn't appear on the shelves around here. But the BOTM is the BOTM. I may have to actually order from one of the excellent websites here in Japan instead of just lurking them.
Ed

Well, I have checked the aforementioned websites and they don't seem to have the PVW 15 or the ORVW 15. I found the Van Winkle Family Reserve 15. Is that close enough or is it a different animal?
Ed

[NorCalBoozer]

Well, I have checked the aforementioned websites and they don't seem to have the PVW 15 or the ORVW 15. I found the Van Winkle Family Reserve 15. Is that close enough or is it a different animal?
Ed

Ed, the full name (just grabbed my bottle) is "Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve 15 years old"

so i think "Van Winkle Family Reserve 15" is the same thing as PVW 15. Unless this is some sort of export only bottling, but i've never heard of an export only Pappy 15.

Greg.

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Ed, the full name (just grabbed my bottle) is "Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve 15 years old"

so i think "Van Winkle Family Reserve 15" is the same thing as PVW 15. Unless this is some sort of export only bottling, but i've never heard of an export only Pappy 15.

Greg.

Hmm. Near as I can see in the pic on the website it is Van Winkle Family Reserve 15 years old. No Pappy. I will probably buy it, after all, it has to be good!
Ed

[bluesbassdad]

Ed,

Perhaps this website (http://www.oldripvanwinkle.com/newbs/vw/website3.nsf/pagesbyname/home?opendocument), which pictures Van Winkle bottlings presently being produced for stateside distribution, will give you a clue, if not a definitive answer.

Of course there's always the possibility that additional bottlings are shipped to Japan. From past exchanges here I know that even Julian doesn't always remember every single bottling he has released.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

[BobA]

Beacuse of BourbonJoe's posting over on the tasting board, I broke out the ORVW 10/107 and 15/107 last night. As usual, I got vanilla, some maple syrup, and a great "richness" from each, but in truth, I can't separate them.
Bob

[DrinkyBanjo]

Are you saying you cannot differenciate between ORVW 10 & 15 or ORVW 15 & PVW 15?

I can see where comparing the two 15 YOs might be difficult (and that'd be a good thing) but the 10 and 15 seem to be very different to me for whatever that's worth.

[BobA]

No, I really can't. Not with any reliability. FWIW, my 10 is SW as well. I've not had the PVW 15 at the same time as the ORVW 15, but as I understand it, there is no difference in the two 15's but the proof.
Bob

[bluesbassdad]

Kevin,

My memory was a little off when I referred to a certain post by Julian. Here's (http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/showthread.php?p=55157&highlight=guys#post55157)what he really said in that post.

I'm still looking for the relevant copy of The Bourbon Country Reader. I wish I had the foresight and gumption to keep them in a binder for occasions such as this.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

[OscarV]

Great. I'm moving to Michigan in a couple of weeks...
Craig
Craig,
sorry to hear about the move to Michigan, you will hate the weather, winter is ofcourse winter('nuff said), we have no spring, summer is humid, but in October there is always a nice week 2 thirds thru the month.
It's like 12 months of cabin fever.
Because of the bad weather people play cards and drink schapps, fruit flavored vodka or cheap light beer.

Oscar

[OscarV]

"Eat, drink and be happy for tomorrow we may die"

Not sure if that is the actual quote but it sums it up for this "just open the bottle" nut.:slappin:
I'll get to it Dane,
I got a lot of gems on my shelf, I save the best for last or when there is a special occasion I'll move something up in the rotation.

Oscar

[Chaz7]

After reading all the posts about price, availability, and comparisons to the discontinued ORVW 15, I figured, what the the heck, I'll have a glass! PVW 15 is probably one of my favorites, with their 20 year old the only one I can readily think of that bests it. While I do like the ORVW 107, I think the added 5 years of the Pappy rounds it out; more flavor, smoother, even at the same proof. This is NOT one I will add water or ice; just neat in a Riedel Bourbon glass. Thoroughly enjoyable.

[DrinkyBanjo]

No, I really can't. Not with any reliability. FWIW, my 10 is SW as well. I've not had the PVW 15 at the same time as the ORVW 15, but as I understand it, there is no difference in the two 15's but the proof.
Bob
Actually ORVW and PVW 15 have the same proof of 107.

[BobA]

Well, I guess my memory is going too. Different bottles, at least?
Bob

[DrinkyBanjo]

Yes, the ORVW has the 'classic' stout look and the PVW is the new elegant look with the picture of Pappy on it.

[wadewood]

As Chuck has mentioned, any bourbon with 'old' in the name is considered out of date; perhaps this is why the change from ORVW to PVW?

[Edward_call_me_Ed]

Ed,

Perhaps this website (http://www.oldripvanwinkle.com/newbs/vw/website3.nsf/pagesbyname/home?opendocument), which pictures Van Winkle bottlings presently being produced for stateside distribution, will give you a clue, if not a definitive answer.

Of course there's always the possibility that additional bottlings are shipped to Japan. From past exchanges here I know that even Julian doesn't always remember every single bottling he has released.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield
Hi Dave,
The picture on the web site that I am looking at most resembles the Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye label on the the website you posted a link to.
Ed

[DrinkyBanjo]

Well, I tried both (ORVW 15 and PVW 15) last night side by side. Both were delicious and very, very close in all aspects. I think if you did not try them side by side and you were a ORVW fan you would not be disappointed by PVW.

I would not spend too many hours hunting down ORVW if you have easy access to the PVW.

[GoodDrinkin]

While visiting Cincinnati I was able to score a bottle of PVW 15 at a certain store just across the river. I still have a bottle and a quarter of ORVW 15 here at home. I agree with the poster that said the Pappy seems a bit drier. Very, very good, but maybe slightly different. Heck, it could be that the ORVW has been sitting in a lot of air for the past year or two.

[Chaz7]

This weekend, I was at a bar at the Broadmoor; they had an extensive bourbon list (and they were smart enough to separate Tennessee, North American, and Kentucky). But NO Van Winkles. I asked the manager/buyer for a PVW. He said it is the most requested bourbon (this is the Broadmoor, customers and guests usually get what they want), but Buffalo Trace is making it impossible to bring in citing shortages, etc. Now in Las Vegas, I saw lot's of PVW and ORVW; so is the lack of Pappy here (in bars and resturants only) a regional issue, or as the manager said, shortages are hurting accessability? By the way,this is a Pappy 15 discussion, and thats what I am inquiring about; however in it's place they served me a Hirsch 16 yo, my first.

[Ambernecter]

Broadmoor is a secure institution where they house the criminally insane over here in England...

Not having any VW products available IS criminally insane and would strike me as grounds for incarceration!

[gr8erdane]

I won't disagree with that.

The Broadmoor here in the US is a secure institution where they house the criminally wealthy under the shadow of Pike's Peak....

Said individuals are sentenced to wander the championship golf course (US Senior Open venue), languish in the spas, eat the finest meals, and drink (with obviously pointed out exceptions) the finest beverages while being forced to view the Garden of the Gods from the 5 star institution....

How I wish I'd been born wealthy rather than insane.....

And so as to not totally hijack the BOTM thread, my first tasting of this one was at the Gazebo right after it was introduced. I gave a bottle of David Nicholson 1843 to a certain Teutonic visitor who reciprocated by grabbing the open PVW 15 he had brought to the table right out of someone's hands and giving it to me in trade. It was half gone when I got it and empty laying on the floor next to me in my room the next morning. I can taste the similarities between PVW 15 and ORVW 15 but to me the PVW is more silk to the ORVW's fine linen.

[Chaz7]

Dane, you cracked me up! But back to th Pappy; this is, at 107 proof one of the smoothest bourbons I have had the pleasure of indulging. It, along with it's big brother the 20 yo, and the rest of the VW family belong in a bar as nice as any of them at the Broadmoor. But underscored in my post is my concern for it's availability as stated by the manager. Is it something to be concerned about? At that though, one of our better liquor stores had 4 on the shelf.

[pepcycle]

That's what I say!!!

Dane???:skep: :skep:

[bluesbassdad]

Oh, and I still prefer the squat bottles with the antique-looking label.

While the above is strictly true, it's implied meaning is not -- at least not tonight. The content of the PVW 15 bottle was more enjoyable than that of the ORVW tonight.

When I opened the PVW, I immediately smelled overripe apples, a pleasant aroma, actually. I realized that it's largely the texture of an apple turned pale brown that is objectionable.

As I continued to nose it (in a Rare Breed rocks glass, the one with a moderate inward taper at the top), I found that the initial aroma was detectable only at a distance of several inches. Closer than that, the more customary aromas of bourbon, caramel, oak, etc, took over.

I had no other insights while I finished a very generous pour -- proabably three to four ounces.

On a whim I went looking for my lone, remaining bottle of ORVW 15/107. I found it to be less than one-quarter full. I poured a scant ounce and, relying on memories of previous tastings, I prepared for a quantum leap in bourbonic enjoyment. It didn't happen.

The apple aroma was still there, but more toward the green, sharp side. Close nosing revealed a slightly sour element, consistent once again with green apples.

On the palate it was not nearly as full-bodied as I remembered, not even close to the PVW 15. A bit of soot, as in charcoal, came through. It reminded me of some of the bourbons that I consider to be on the borderline of being overaged, Elijah Craig 18 y/o for one, but not quite that sooty. I had found not a trace of soot in the PVW 15.

As of this second I really prefer the PVW 15, in spite of my previous protestations when it replaced the ORVW 15/107.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

[ProofPositive]

While the above is strictly true, it's implied meaning is not -- at least not tonight. The content of the PVW 15 bottle was more enjoyable than that of the ORVW tonight.

As of this second I really prefer the PVW 15, in spite of my previous protestations when it replaced the ORVW 15/107.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

After reading your comments, I was happy to find someone else out there who had the same experience as myself of late with PVW15 and ORVW15. It has happened twice this month and left me scratching my head both times. When I opened the PVW a couple of weeks ago (my first), I really expected just the opposite to occur. However, after reading your post, I realized I was not losing my mind. Thanks!

[tmas]

These unimpressive tasting notes of the ORVW 15 don't mirror my experiences with this bourbon. I noticed that most people talking about the PVW 15 are saying things like " when I first opened the bottle" etc., while the ORVW 15 seems to be coming from open bottles. One comment mentions the ORVW bottle being 1/4 full. Isn't it very likely that to really compare the two accurately you'd need to be opening a fresh bottle of each? And I too prefer the squat antique looking bottle to the new look. Tom V

[DrinkyBanjo]

Yes, I do believe you are right. BTW, I kinda like the new bottle.

[tmas]

Well Tim, it's not that I don't like the new bottle, it's just that the old one is so funky and sort of conjures up the images that I associate with bourbon. I just think it's the classic bottle shape and a classic label. Tom V

[DrinkyBanjo]

I like the newer bottle because it is more narrow than the original. I can fit more bottles into my liquor cabinet this way!

[tmas]

OK Tim, I agree that allowing more bottles in the cabinet is important! So, perhaps we can agree that the old ORVW squat bottle is a purer form of bourbon bottle and more aesthetically pleasing, while allowing that the new PVW bottle is more efficient in it's use of available space. I suppose a workable compromise might be to soak off the label of one's final bottle of ORVW and reattach it to a new bottle of PVW 15...? Tom V

[DrinkyBanjo]

Works for me!

[gr8erdane]

I dunno guys, I like the new bottle for many of the same reasons but mostly because it gives me something to look forward to: smoking a big old stogie and drinking bourbon when my hair turns grey(er).

[DrinkyBanjo]

Agreed, that picture of Pappy is inspiring!

[ProofPositive]

The newer bottle/label is destined for legendary status as well. The old edition will always be more desirable simply because it is out of production. IMHO, both are classics - but, in different ways. Once again, I tip my hat to JVW for the tradition of class and excellence on both sides of the glass in each bottle whether present or former.

[DrinkyBanjo]

Here-here!

[drli]

Just picked up my first 2 bottles of this fine bourbon. Am I to late??

[cowdery]

You're never too late, either to enjoy Pappy or to write about it here. But after you try it, you might ask yourself why you waited so long.

[drli]

Wifey said... those bottles are for Christmas... So, have to wait until then to open one. I have tried the 10y 107P before. But.. hey.. those bottles are hard to get here in N Cal. 1st chance I have ever seen and I jumped on it. I got the last 2 bottles from BevMo.com. in the state of CA. Cost me ~$40 per bottle after tax. :grin:

Need to work harder on getting some more 10y 107. I really liked that last year around this time.

[FlashPuppy]

Wifey said... those bottles are for Christmas... So, have to wait until then to open one. I have tried the 10y 107P before. But.. hey.. those bottles are hard to get here in N Cal. 1st chance I have ever seen and I jumped on it. I got the last 2 bottles from BevMo.com. in the state of CA. Cost me ~$40 per bottle after tax. :grin:

Need to work harder on getting some more 10y 107. I really liked that last year around this time.


SCREEEEECH!!!! Stop the bus. I have one PVW15 at the BEVMO down the street, and two more at another. I haven't even been to the other six in my area. BEVMO's online inventory is nowhere near accurate. Always call the store to check the stock.

Welcome to the board by the way. Whereabout's in Norcal are you at?

[drli]

Im in San Jose, but I had to go to Fremont to get my 2 bottles. Around here.. If there are more bottles, they will be gone by Christmas. Could always try to order online from HiTimes.... but who knows... Binnys or Sams??

[SBOmarc]

I picked up the last bottle that the BevMo in Ranho Cucamonga had just this evening. Online they claimed to have 4. Beware indeed.

[drli]

Really, if I search BevMo.com ship to Ca... They don't show any 15y bottles. This is strange, but possible. You show 4, I show 0. As for actually store count.. I dont know... Would be nice if they did have alot more. Althought I havent tried any as of yet. I know it will be GOOD. And I know I would like access to lots more.

[drli]

Oh, BTW... New to SB.com.. but not new to Bourbon. I have tried most of the past BOTM. But will not re-try J. B. White... Grew up on Black Velvet. Loved the ads in the 70's.... Now cant stand the stuff.

[FlashPuppy]

I picked up the last bottle that the BevMo in Ranho Cucamonga had just this evening. Online they claimed to have 4. Beware indeed.


YOU BASTARD!!!!! :duel:

I was heading up there this week to pick up some parts for work. That was on my list.

Oh, well.

[drli]

well, stop by with something better .. and we can taste! and dont bring that calf foot that you got in mexico. That thing steped in Sh*t!