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photogjunkie
09-20-2006, 10:44
I have searched for this information, but have not been able to get a good list of the different Distilled Spirits Plant code numbers. Since I'm still learning, this would be useful to me for identification purposes of vintage bottled in bond bourbons I may come upon as to the quality of the contents which may be inside the bottle. I've been able to cull titbits of info from searching out past posts...DSP KY 16 = Stitzel Weller, but a complete list would be helpful.

Anyone have a list they could share?

luv2hunt
09-20-2006, 11:15
Send me a PM with your address. I'll send you the UPC code info....but some of the historical info.....you have to learn for it to be useful.

The DSP info, I suggest you buy the book by Sam Cecil.

Dawn

photogjunkie
09-20-2006, 16:44
Dawn...I have the UPC list and understand the importance of having the right UPC match on certain brands which may have changed ownership during the last 20 years or so. The 88076 Louisville Charters and Old Fitzgeralds come to mind. I have gained some knowledge of bourbon history for some of the brands I love, but have much to learn in the world of bourbon.

The reason I asked about the DSP KY Codes, is that they are referred to often in posts, but I was unable through searches to really pull up any comprehensive list of Distilled Spirits Plants on this site, or even on Goggle. I would have thought this would have been in archives already.

How many bourbon plants in KY can there be?

barturtle
09-20-2006, 17:22
Barton-12
Makers Mark-44
Bernheim(HH)-1
Heaven Hill-31(bottling only now, but there is still some stock from there)
SW-16(Dead)
Woodford-52
Buffalo Trace-113
Wild Turkey-67
Four Roses-8
Early Times-414
Willett-78(in process of recommissioning)
Beam-230/14(latter is now bottling only)

I think this is correct, but someone feel free to correct me if not

Gillman
09-20-2006, 17:29
No. 354 is written on the back of the recent Rittenhouse BIB, is that not Early Times?

Gary

barturtle
09-20-2006, 17:53
Cecils book lists 354 as the Old Kentucky Distillery and also as the Early Times Plant, but lists Old Forester as a separate plant 414? I thought these were one and the same plant???Hmmm...also ran across another number for Labrot and Graham-82.

I was cross referencing the ttbonline database with Cecils book. Problem is sometimes distilleries operate under (or they used to) different numbers for different products. There are old stories of going out and hanging a different sign on the stillhouse depending on what you were distilling.

It's all so confusing!

Rughi
09-20-2006, 20:52
Cecils book lists 354 as the Old Kentucky Distillery and also as the Early Times Plant, but lists Old Forester as a separate plant 414? I thought these were one and the same plant???

My personal key for the great Old Forester BIB is if it was from DSP 414 (Louisville), not DSP 354 "Early Times" (Shively). I believe that since the mid-to-late '80s all distillation has been at DSP 354. I've read that the rickhouses are still in use at 414, and that the still was brought down to distill Forester white dog in Shively. Tim, I bet you've been past each of these places any number of times.

There was a distillery tour report of 354 on the other forum recently that was very interesting.

Roger

barturtle
09-20-2006, 21:07
354 it is, then.

Actually I only end up in that area of Louisville if I'm lost and I try not to get lost by not going in that part of town.:slappin: But yes I have driven by once or twice:smiley_acbt:

TNbourbon
09-20-2006, 21:10
Boy, you guys sure make it hard to keep things to oneself around here -- pretty soon you'll know everything I know (and it won't be that big a deal for you, but it leaves me with little to contribute :searching: ).
Anyway, the following list is far from comprehensive, and may well contain errors. However, for the most part, it is compiled from bottles I've actually seen, held, drunk, et al, and from which I thus was able to copy the info directly.

3127

dgonano
09-21-2006, 09:54
Thanks Tim/Timothy, ...very useful lists

bourbonv
09-21-2006, 10:58
The distillery in Shively is now the Brown-Forman Distillery. This reflects the fact that they have moved the still from the downtown distillery where they made Old Forester (DSP 414), to the Early Times Distillery (DSP 354). The stills are what registered, not the building, so they were able to transfer the DSP No. as well as the still. They stand side by side in the distillery building in Shively. The Old Forester still is more narrow than the Early Times column.

Mike Veach

cowdery
09-21-2006, 11:07
I also learned that they can operate the two stills simultaneously, in parallel.

There have been many things said about why the distillery's name was changed. I think it was mainly because it doesn't do the image of Old Forester or Woodford Reserve any good to say they are made at the Early Times Distillery, since Early Times has become such a downscale product. In their defense, though, it did cause some confusion.

barturtle
09-21-2006, 11:11
So does the distillery have the option of registering each still under the same number or seperate numbers, or is this a unique case? IIRC, BT uses the same registry for both its bourbon still and its vodka still.

bourbonv
09-21-2006, 12:14
This is not the first time this has happened. Bernheim is actually DSP No. 1 and No.2 since they combined the stills from both the Belmont and Astor distilleries. These two distilleries were seperate buildings at the same location at 17th and Breckinridge before Schenley combined them in the 1930's. Stitzel-Weller could have been DSP 17 if they had not sold the still and everything else at their Story Avenue distillery to Frankfort Distillery in 1935. They could transfer the registration number as long as the old distillery was completely closed down otherwise the number went with the new owners. They decided to find a number as close as possible to 17 for the new distillery and 16 was available.

Mike Veach

Rughi
09-21-2006, 23:12
The stills are what registered, not the building, so they were able to transfer the DSP No. as well as the still. They stand side by side in the distillery building in Shively. The Old Forester still is more narrow than the Early Times column.

Mike Veach

This is an interesting statement. I had no idea that if stills moved they took their registry number along.

Has BF ever chosen to put 414 on the label since moving to Shively? My BIB bottles with apparent bottle dates from 88, 91, and 95 all call out "Distiller DSP KY 354" and "Bottler DSP KY 414."

Any Forester 100 proof I have newer than that doesn't state a DSP, and the BIB bottles older than that state "Distilled and Bottled by DSP KY 414." It would appear that either BF didn't use the narrow Forester still at some times or just chose not to call out the Distillery as 414 if they used the narrow still at the Shively plant.

An interesting mystery...

Roger

cowdery
09-21-2006, 23:34
What Roger is describing is more how I would understand it. Since the bottling plant at 850 Dixie Highway has to be licensed, I would assume that 414 is the bottling plant and 354 is the distillery. Perhaps they can use the registration numbers however they choose, but it seems reasonable that they would use 414 where they need it, the bottling house, and not at 354, where they don't.

Daniel's is bottled in Lynchburg and Woodford is bottled in Versailles, but everything else is bottled at 850 Dixie Highway. There is no bottling house at the distillery.

bourbonv
09-22-2006, 07:33
Old Forester Signature or 100 Proof, however you wish to refer to it as, is not a bonded bourbon anymore, so they don't place a DSP number on the label. They do have bottling operations in Shively, but only for their ready to drink cocktails such as Jack and Coke. That building also houses the miniature stills that were the prototypes for Woodford Reserve. They still use them to make experimental batches of whiskey.

According to what I read in the Van Winkle papers at the U D Archive, a DSP no. is for the still. If you move your still to a new location it remains with the still. If you sell the still to another person or company, then the number goes with the still and that is why Stitzel-Weller is DSP 16 instead of 17. Frankfort Distillery kept the DSP 17 when they bought the Stitzel Distillery on Story Avenue. At Bernheim, they have DSP 1 and DSP 2 because these stills were registered at seperate distilleries before they placed side by side in the New Bernheim distillery after prohibition With DSP 1 being Belmont and DSP 2 being Astor. There was evidently some market value to doing this since they could have eleminated one DSP No. if Schenley had wished to do so and simply called them both DSP 1. This is allowed in the regulations.

Stitzel-Weller has two column stills. The second still was placed in the distillery during WWII to increase alcohol production during the war. They simply added it to the DSP 16 registration. They did not see any value of having two DSP numbers.

Brown-Forman evidently has decided to keep the Old Forester still's DSP Number seperate. I suspect that this was done for marketing reasons.


Mike Veach

shaggy
10-22-2006, 13:33
I too had been looking for some info on DSP numbers and found this thread. I was doing research on what distilleries operated in Bourbon Co. KY. I also had some pre-prohibition bottles with DSP numbers I couldn't find anywhere. I dug up this picture that i took at the BT distillery museum. It has some pretty good info. I wish I had the entire list. I work in Frankfort, so I may stop in later this week and get some more detailed pictures of this list. Here is what I have right now. After clicking the link, click the picture to enlarge. I hope this is helpful to some of you.
http://jimmyshaw.com/gallery/bourbon/DSC03265 (http://jimmyshaw.com/gallery/bourbon/DSC03265?full=1)

tmas
02-08-2007, 02:57
I purchased a lone bottle of Rittenhouse BIB Rye 100 proof I found today. On the back label it states "Distilled by D.S.P. KY 31 and bottled by Continental Distilling Co., Bardstown, KY" Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that only bottling takes place at D.S.P. 31 now. I wondered if anyone would know if this is an older bottle, or do all the Rittenhouse BIBs come from here? This is the only bottle I've seen around my area. Tom V

cowdery
02-08-2007, 10:42
I have one of those too and there's no reason to doubt its accuracy. It simply means the whiskey inside was distilled before the fire. More common, of course, is DSP 354, which is Brown-Forman in Louisville, where Heaven Hill has been making its rye whiskey even since acquiring Bernheim, because Bernheim is operating at capacity.

There were also some bottles that were "accidentally mislabeled," including some 80 proof bottles that had the BIB back label, and some BIB bottles that had no back label at all, for which the explanation given was that they "must have fallen off."

If there is any Rittenhouse out there that was made at Bernheim, I haven't seen it.

tmas
02-08-2007, 11:47
Thanks Chuck for the info. So, if I'm not mistaken, that would mean that the rye in my bottle was distilled by Heaven Hill in their still # 31 before it was burned in 1996. Interesting, I suppose that's the lone bottle I have that has that provence. Tom V

cowdery
02-08-2007, 11:51
As I said, the answer is maybe. I'm also told that some DSP 354 bottles were "accidentally mislabeled" with the DSP 31 labels. However, that also means that there were actual DSP 31 bottles made, and we all know how long stock can remain in the distribution pipeline.

However, if one had to place a bet, I would think it slightly more likely that what you have is a mislabeled DSP 354 and not an actual DSP 31.

tmas
02-08-2007, 12:07
The bottle does have the look of one that's been around awhile and it was a lone soldier on the shelf , don't know if that might mean something?
I guess the only thing to do is to get my hands on a bottle numbered 354 and taste them side by side. Not only would that be fun, but now I have another bourbon quest to pursue! Tom V

boone
02-08-2007, 12:38
Thanks Chuck for the info. So, if I'm not mistaken, that would mean that the rye in my bottle was distilled by Heaven Hill in their still # 31 before it was burned in 1996. Interesting, I suppose that's the lone bottle I have that has that provence. Tom V

Check the bottom of the bottle for the "date"...This is real accurate. HH practically loads glass from the truck. This will help determine where that particular rye was made. Before the fire (Nov. 96) all rye and bourbon was made at DSP #31 Heaven Hill...

The story behind the labeling issue. Roger (Rughi) noted his "missing" labels...and then noted on another bottle (100 pr.) DSP#31...the bottle date (on the bottom) was after the fire. The rye is 6 years old (100 proof) and the bottle date stated 2005 (?) Impossible to be made at DSP 31.

Missing labels will occur...Especailly, when your's running 200 bpm and the label machine decides to throw some paper :slappin: :slappin:Girls and guys sceaming "BACKS!!!!!!!!! OR FRONTS!!!!!!!!! To get the operator's attention real quick...

At times a bottle will get by without a back or collar or sometimes even a front. It's happens.

I went to management and pointed this out...They were still using the DSP back and quickly made up new back labels with the correct DSP #...Same stuff but made elsewhere, by Parker and Craig.

Bettye Jo

tmas
02-08-2007, 12:50
Thanks for the amusing insiders backround info!

Bettye Jo, these are the numbers on the bottle bottom. They either need interpreting or are themselves incorrect because they don't make sense as is. They are 03 11 044 and then 5 0323. Any relevance to those #'s? Tom V

Gillman
02-09-2007, 04:43
I was going back through this thread to see if there was a comprehensive national list of DSP numbers. There are a number of lists compiled by SB-ers from information they have, but nothing that seems taken from any publicly available list. Does this suggest that no such list is available? Reason I ask is, the lists do not seem to include microdistilleries, yet I would think they must have DSP numbers too. If this information was available it might help to identify better some of the new operations, some of which make whisky, and some of which are starting to make bourbon and rye and other kinds of non-barley malt whiskey.

Gary

cowdery
02-09-2007, 12:32
Unfortunately, a DSP number simply indicates a "producer." A producer might be a distiller, or a rectifier, or a bottler, or an importer, or some combination of the above, but you can have a DSP number without having a still.

boone
02-09-2007, 12:39
Thanks for the amusing insiders backround info!

Bettye Jo, these are the numbers on the bottle bottom. They either need interpreting or are themselves incorrect because they don't make sense as is. They are 03 11 044 and then 5 0323. Any relevance to those #'s? Tom V


The "03" is the year..."2003" :grin:

Bettye Jo

cowdery
02-09-2007, 13:34
I found an Excel spreadsheet on the TTB web site. (http://www.ttb.gov/foia/err.shtml) Scroll down to "FAA Permit Listings" and click on "Distilled Spirits Producers and Bottlers."

It appears to be a comprehensive list. Unfortunately, it merely lists the DSP number and provides a name and address. It gives no information about the producer's activities. I was hoping for at least a date as to when the DSP was granted, but no such luck.

Anyway, this should be definitive in terms of what companies or individuals own what DSPs at present. As I mention above, a producer can be a distiller, a rectifier, a bottler, an importer, or some combination thereof. Having a DSP number mainly authorizes you to buy spirits, in bulk or already packaged, and authorizes you to sell them to wholesalers, and gives licensed wholesalers clearance to buy from you.

Gillman
02-09-2007, 13:54
That's interesting though, thanks.

Gary

tmas
02-10-2007, 03:14
The "03" is the year..."2003" :grin:

Bettye Jo

OK, so the only unique thing about this bottle is that it managed to find a label that had been hanging around for 7 years after the fire! Probably still make a tasty Manhattan though. Thanks for the info. Tom V

boone
02-10-2007, 08:23
OK, so the only unique thing about this bottle is that it managed to find a label that had been hanging around for 7 years after the fire! Probably still make a tasty Manhattan though. Thanks for the info. Tom V


Yes :grin: :grin:

This thread tells it direct---->http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=51951&postcount=55

Bettye Jo