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HighTower
01-19-2007, 00:25
Today I got some tickets at work for some items that I can only presume are new and must be coming into our stores. 2 of them were for Iron Horse Kentucky Bourbon (700mL and 1L).
There was no price on the ticket but I imagine it is something that will be coming soon.
Obviously I have not heard of this brand, or seen anything on here about it, I'm guessing it's a control label possibly being bottled for us.
Bettye Jo - you haven't seen this label sitting around at Heaven Hill have you?

I'll post more when I know more, which will probably be when we receive the stock.

Scott

boone
01-19-2007, 02:43
Bettye Jo - you haven't seen this label sitting around at Heaven Hill have you?

Scott

Nope :grin:

Bettye Jo

camduncan
01-19-2007, 02:48
interesting.....
Nothing showed when I searched Google either...

BarItemsPlus1
01-19-2007, 07:50
Got to love the people in marketing these days...Iron Horse - What tha!?

Another Coles bulk buy??
IMHO Bourbon needs to come in line with Scotch, i.e. Stating what distillery it's from. All these 'no name' brands are just only making bourbon a cheap product!! And I don't mean that literally...just with the way Bourbon 'holds' itself in foreign countries, I would have thought that someone would have started a proper authority for the liquid...it does well to deserve it!!

When is there going to be a proper Bourbon Association?? Scotch has one!!

cubacroc
01-19-2007, 11:02
Google " Iron Horse Whiskey " for results.

Gillman
01-19-2007, 12:01
Interesting point about whether bourbon should always identify where it's from.

A few thoughts. Not all scotch whisky tells you the distillery or distilleries it's from. Blends don't, yet luxury blends still have a lot of status in the scotch world.

Generally, single malts do tell you, which is part of the concept of these drinks. They are the product of one distillery. Not all malts do so, though, there are private label malts, and vatted ones, which often do not state the exact origin. I just saw one in our market here that stated it had a base of Islay malts, but whether all are Islays, and then too, which ones, I do not know.

But even if we set aside this aspect, I am mindful there are only 8 or 9 producing bourbon distilleries. There are so many more single malt distilleries, in a much smaller country.

With so few bourbon distilleries, it seems to me inevitably a business will emerge whereby people buy in bulk and create a brand name and flavor profile (take e.g. Corner Creek). Many of these brands, like Corner Creek, are successful and have been around for a long time. Some products get known and get a good reputation, others less so and they will not have the same success.

Also, there is the factor that a distillery can make a bourbon - to begin with -but it ends being finished somewhere else. Many distilleries do not age on or near the premises where the still is located. (By the way this can happen at single malt distilleries, I understand some output, e.g., of Islay, is aged far away from the location of the distillery).

Finally, the tradition in the States was often to distill and sell the output right away, for aging somewhere else, or on-site, but owned by another party and made to his or her spec. under a name of his choosing. Even if that business model is not as common as it was, that history created or was part of a system of middlemen who had their own brands, sometimes bought of a piece from a distiller, but often combined with other whiskeys to make a vatted-type or blended product. From the beginning, then, identification with the source distillery, even if there was one only, was often secondary to the market and reputation of the product.

In my own experience, whiskeys vary to a lesser or greater degree, over time anyway, whether they come from a known source or someone who owns a brand name.

As for an anonymous new brand that appears on the market from time to time, I'll give it a try if I have the chance and buy it again if I like it. Generally I think these come not too costly and sometimes you can get a good value in this area.

Gary

cowdery
01-19-2007, 23:17
My solution? Don't buy 'em. Don't care about 'em.

HighTower
01-31-2007, 14:38
I've ordered a case, it's definitely an exclusive label do to the new ticketing, and the 700mL bottle is going to be $29.99

Hopefully will be here soon.

Scott

HighTower
09-20-2007, 07:21
Well, Iron Horse is finally in. $29.99 on sale for $26.99 next week. It's in the same bottle as EW Black, and it is marked DSP-KY-31 on the box.
I will try to remember to take a decent picture of it tomorrow. 74 proof :rolleyes:

Scott

ggilbertva
09-20-2007, 08:54
Well, Iron Horse is finally in. $29.99 on sale for $26.99 next week. It's in the same bottle as EW Black, and it is marked DSP-KY-31 on the box.
I will try to remember to take a decent picture of it tomorrow. 74 proof :rolleyes:

Scott

74 proof? Scott, did you know it would be at that proof when you placed the order? I have a bottle of Prichards Sweet Lucy and I beleive it is at 70 proof.

Can it be called bourbon at a proof lower than 80? I'll have to check the bottle of Lucy and see what it says on the bottle.

barturtle
09-20-2007, 09:05
74 proof? Scott, did you know it would be at that proof when you placed the order? I have a bottle of Prichards Sweet Lucy and I beleive it is at 70 proof.

Can it be called bourbon at a proof lower than 80? I'll have to check the bottle of Lucy and see what it says on the bottle.

Not in the US. I believe Sweet Lucy says something like Bourbon Liqueur.

There may be a diluted bourbon category for those places in the US that only allow up to a certain proof in groceries and such, though

barturtle
09-20-2007, 09:11
Hmmm....found this in a document (http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/A459%20Initial%20draft%20assessment%20report.pdf) dated 2003...


5.2 Protection for GI Spirits
The current regulations for spirits only allow geographic indications to be indicated for spirits
if the %ABV in the spirit is at a level permitted by the laws of the country of origin.
5.2.1 Bourbon whisky
Under US law the federal regulations specify no whisky can be called Bourbon unless it has
been manufactured within the United States according to a specific Bourbon formula. This
formula requires Bourbon to be bottled at not less than 80 degrees proof (40% ABV) unless
otherwise noted on the label it has been ‘diluted’. However, the US provides a waiver for
exports which permits the bottling of Bourbon at 37% ABV without reflecting that the
product has been ‘diluted’.

ggilbertva
09-20-2007, 10:20
Hmmm....found this in a document (http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/A459%20Initial%20draft%20assessment%20report.pdf) dated 2003...

That is interesting. I thought bourbon had to be at 80 proof but didn't realize that export could be lower and still be called bourbon. Guess that's something to watch for when shopping internationally. Thanks.

cowdery
09-20-2007, 13:40
The real answer is that U.S. standard of identity for distilled spirits, including TTB labeling rules, only apply to products sold in the United States. US-made products sold in other countries have to conform to the laws of those countries.

bluesbassdad
09-20-2007, 15:25
Chuck,

Check me on this.

Distillers in other countries can theoretically make a product that is indistinguishable from bourbon, but they can't call it "bourbon".

Distillers in the USA can make a product that is not bourbon under US law and sell it as bourbon in those other countries.

Do I have it right?

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

camduncan
09-20-2007, 15:33
I was under the impression that Iron Horse was a Heaven Hill brand bottled for Australia? Kind of like Nelson County and (probably) several other bottlings we have?

barturtle
09-20-2007, 16:10
Distillers in other countries can theoretically make a product that is indistinguishable from bourbon, but they can't call it "bourbon".

Distillers in the USA can make a product that is not bourbon under US law and sell it as bourbon in those other countries.

Do I have it right?


Sounds about right to me. Though if the country doesn't have an agreement with the US to protect those "protected geographic region names" then they could probably still use the title "bourbon". Of course any country that doesn't have this sort of trade agreement probably doesn't do much business with the US anyway and the market for such things would be little...

But Chuck might know better

wku88
09-21-2007, 21:19
Regardless of the "technicalities", it ain't bourbon unless:
1) The mashbill is >51% corn
2) It's fermented, distilled, and aged in Kentucky in new charred oak barrels
3)the ABV is 43% or greater
4) the only thing mixed with it before it goes in the bottle is limestone spring water.
5)the whiskey can be mixed with different ages, but must not be mixed with distillate from different recipes

It may be whiskey, it may taste good, but unless it meets the above criteria, it ain't bourbon to me. You want different taste profiles, fine, but don't call it Bourbon unless it is from the same recipe. American Whisky is a fine label for blends and watered down stuff...but please don't call it Bourbon.

Barrel_Proof
09-21-2007, 21:54
Regardless of the "technicalities", it ain't bourbon unless:
1) The mashbill is >51% corn
2) It's fermented, distilled, and aged in Kentucky in new charred oak barrels
3)the ABV is 43% or greater
4) the only thing mixed with it before it goes in the bottle is limestone spring water.
5)the whiskey can be mixed with different ages, but must not be mixed with distillate from different recipes

It may be whiskey, it may taste good, but unless it meets the above criteria, it ain't bourbon to me. You want different taste profiles, fine, but don't call it Bourbon unless it is from the same recipe. American Whisky is a fine label for blends and watered down stuff...but please don't call it Bourbon.

Why greater than 51% corn, when the rest of the world considers 51% just fine? Now if you were to say not less than 75% corn, I could understand your point. The final criterion means that no Four Roses bottlings except its Single Barrels qualify as bourbon to you. Both of these criteria seem pretty arbitrary to me.

camduncan
09-21-2007, 22:00
Regardless of the "technicalities", it ain't bourbon unless:
1) The mashbill is >51% corn
2) It's fermented, distilled, and aged in Kentucky in new charred oak barrels
3)the ABV is 43% or greater
4) the only thing mixed with it before it goes in the bottle is limestone spring water.
5)the whiskey can be mixed with different ages, but must not be mixed with distillate from different recipes

It may be whiskey, it may taste good, but unless it meets the above criteria, it ain't bourbon to me. You want different taste profiles, fine, but don't call it Bourbon unless it is from the same recipe. American Whisky is a fine label for blends and watered down stuff...but please don't call it Bourbon.

Hmmmm, someone better tell Jim Beam that they aren't selling bourbon in Australia then :slappin: ......All Jim Beam White sold in Australia is shipped here (in barrels I assume) and bottled at 37.5% and is still legally able to be called bourbon....

barturtle
09-21-2007, 22:24
Regardless of the "technicalities", it ain't bourbon unless:
1) The mashbill is >51% corn
2) It's fermented, distilled, and aged in Kentucky in new charred oak barrels
3)the ABV is 43% or greater
4) the only thing mixed with it before it goes in the bottle is limestone spring water.
5)the whiskey can be mixed with different ages, but must not be mixed with distillate from different recipes

It may be whiskey, it may taste good, but unless it meets the above criteria, it ain't bourbon to me. You want different taste profiles, fine, but don't call it Bourbon unless it is from the same recipe. American Whisky is a fine label for blends and watered down stuff...but please don't call it Bourbon.

I'm not sure there are many bourbons on the shelf that meet all of these...and historically even less. What really matters most is how it tastes, but is it nice, even preferable, to know what is in the bottle.

I would bet that less distilleries than you would think use limestone spring water for their cut...

HighTower
09-22-2007, 02:31
Hmmmm, someone better tell Jim Beam that they aren't selling bourbon in Australia then :slappin: ......All Jim Beam White sold in Australia is shipped here (in barrels I assume) and bottled at 37.5% and is still legally able to be called bourbon....
According to those specs, it's isn't bourbon in the states either...it's only 40% there......

Scott