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felthove
01-10-2008, 07:38
Baffled by its complexity, that is.

For better or worse one of the first "good" bourbons I purchased was a recent PVW15. And I loved it. I read a little and figured I might be a wheat guy and picked up a few other wheated bourbons (Weller 12 and 107, Old Fitz and Very Old Fitz 12). I liked them (especially the Weller 12) but didn't find them nearly as interesting as the high rye bourbons I've been buying, and my tastes seem to be leaning toward that style.

Still, I haven't had another bourbon (out of the 30 or so I've acquired) that exhibits the range of flavors and delicious uniqueness of the PVW15. I'm trying to identify what is responsible but I just cannot put my finger on it. I know there are a huge number of variables that affect the final product but can anyone suggest why this product is just so darn tasty and unique? Perhaps it's just my inexperience with bourbon...?

pepcycle
01-10-2008, 08:57
You've gone and done it.

Found the Holy Grail without a long search.

You can retire from Bourbon.

Nothing left.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gillman
01-10-2008, 09:45
There is always single malts. :)

No seriously, Pappy 15 is very good but (to me anyway) it represents only part of the bourbon spectrum. As good as it is, one wouldn't want I think always to drink the same bourbon. And (ultimately) one can tire of almost anything. Trying other parts of the spectrum would allow an appreciation of, say, bourbons in the 4-6 years range, or 6-10, or made with rye as the flavor grain, or of straight ryes on their own and in these age bands, and so forth. All these have their own characteristics and can be pleasing as such. It just adds variety.

Gary

Markoturbo
01-10-2008, 21:53
PVW15 seems to be my consistent favorite, a bit more character and octane than:cool: the 20, but the 20 is smoother and so is the lot B with a little less character.

Old Lamplighter
01-11-2008, 18:58
You've gone and done it.

Found the Holy Grail without a long search.

You can retire from Bourbon.

Nothing left.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

......And, since you have found the Grail, you will have little use for the other "30 or so" you have acquired which means they would find welcome homes among your many friends here.:grin:

barturtle
01-11-2008, 19:25
There is always single malts. :)



I'll save you some time and trouble: Highland Park 25yo.

ggilbertva
01-11-2008, 22:06
Baffled by its complexity, that is.

...can anyone suggest why this product is just so darn tasty and unique? Perhaps it's just my inexperience with bourbon...?

If you haven't acquired the barrel proof BTAC bottles, get some. In fact, get all of them. I found the '07 Saz at 90 proof to be quite zippy....it really woke my mouth up. The barrel strength bottles have the added benefit of being able to alter the proof to your particular taste. I wouldn't suggest though that you drink the Stagg at 144 proof.

heatmiser
01-12-2008, 01:37
I wouldn't suggest though that you drink the Stagg at 144 proof.

Come on now Greg! :cool:

I actually find the Stagg straight to my liking. Very, very, very small sips...

ggilbertva
01-12-2008, 09:59
Come on now Greg! :cool:

I actually find the Stagg straight to my liking. Very, very, very small sips...

VERY small! I find the high proof tends to mask the flavors and deadens the taste buds after a while. While I have had all the BTAC at their bottled proof, I like to wake up the flavors and save my palate by cutting it down. Besides, cutting the proof makes the bottle last longer. Go ahead....call me a wimp...I can take it.

felthove
01-12-2008, 11:18
I am anxious to try the BTAC products but as a resident of WA state I fear I am doomed to never find any in my state liquor stores. I visit family in CA each summer (bay area) so there's a chance I could find some there when I visit. Anyone on the board have any tips on how to track down any BTAC products?? Thanks!

Rughi
01-12-2008, 14:50
I visit family in CA each summer (bay area) so there's a chance I could find some there when I visit. Anyone on the board have any tips on how to track down any BTAC products?? Thanks!

When you come down this summer, come see us at the East Bay Study Group. There's no knowing what'll be around then, but we'll help you out.

Roger

Merlin_AZ
01-14-2008, 15:49
I'll save you some time and trouble: Highland Park 25yo.
Had some new years eve.
A little "oaky" for my taste at the start, but very nice indeed.

felthove
01-14-2008, 18:41
When you come down this summer, come see us at the East Bay Study Group. There's no knowing what'll be around then, but we'll help you out.

Roger

A member of the EBSG already PM'd me. You guys on this board really are kind and generous. Best to you all.

CrispyCritter
01-19-2008, 19:57
Baffled by its complexity, that is.

Still, I haven't had another bourbon (out of the 30 or so I've acquired) that exhibits the range of flavors and delicious uniqueness of the PVW15. I'm trying to identify what is responsible but I just cannot put my finger on it.

I'd put it down to barrel character, distillery (even though the latest PVW15 isn't 100% Stitzel-Weller) and Julian's talent at barrel selection.

For me, wheaters tend to be sweet and fairly simple - and that's not a bad thing, by any means - but PVW15 (and the now-gone ORVW15) are major exceptions to the rule.

NickAtMartinis
01-19-2008, 21:25
For me, wheaters tend to be sweet and fairly simple - and that's not a bad thing, by any means - but PVW15 (and the now-gone ORVW15) are major exceptions to the rule.


Right on the money, CC. I feel the same with with wheaters. They normally lack complexity, especially the PVW 20 and 23. Both are just straight forward sweetness. But, the PVW15 is a totally different beast. It actually has the complexity I enjoy in ryed bourbons. And, the same goes for the ORVW 10/107.

ggilbertva
01-20-2008, 21:53
I'd put it down to barrel character, distillery (even though the latest PVW15 isn't 100% Stitzel-Weller) and Julian's talent at barrel selection.

For me, wheaters tend to be sweet and fairly simple - and that's not a bad thing, by any means - but PVW15 (and the now-gone ORVW15) are major exceptions to the rule.

Just for curiosity sake, does anyone know when PVW15 was all SW? I would love to do a side by side of two PVW15's. I bought 4 bottles in April '07 but I don't know how long those bottles had been sitting on the shelf. If the bottling happened in late '06, doing the math, that would place the distillation somewhere around 1991 which would be SW.

ACDetroit
01-21-2008, 21:11
Not sure Greg but I have a bottle I bough back in 2004 and I would be game for this side by side!

Cheers!

Tony

HipFlask
01-21-2008, 21:28
Twice now I have held a bottle of this in my hand and wanted to buy it but put it back for next time. Only problem is next time it isn't on the shelf. I can guaranty that there will not be a 3rd time. Lesson learned the hard way.

ggilbertva
01-24-2008, 20:20
Not sure Greg but I have a bottle I bough back in 2004 and I would be game for this side by side!

Cheers!

Tony

Hey Tony....when you coming to VA!?

ACDetroit
01-25-2008, 09:44
Greg? No time soon with the baby, but I am planning on going to the Sampler in April? Not sure if your bottle will last that long but I have not opened the one I bought in 2004 so I could bring it with??

Cheers!

Tony

ggilbertva
01-28-2008, 18:44
Greg? No time soon with the baby, but I am planning on going to the Sampler in April? Not sure if your bottle will last that long but I have not opened the one I bought in 2004 so I could bring it with??

Cheers!

Tony

Sorry brother, but I have to skip the sampler. I purchased a franchise last year and my store will be open in April and I'll be working full time getting things going. Wish I could join but not this year.

NickAtMartinis
01-28-2008, 19:37
Sorry brother, but I have to skip the sampler. I purchased a franchise last year and my store will be open in April and I'll be working full time getting things going. Wish I could join but not this year.


Greg, congratulations on the franchise. If you don't mind my asking, what franchise did you purchase?

Mark

felthove
01-29-2008, 09:17
Quick question about Pappy 15 (or other Van Winkle products, if appropriate). We got a bunch of PVW15 in WA in December and now it appears that most of it is gone. Is there just one annual release date of certain Van Winkle products? Does it vary by state? I know it's probably complicated but I figured I'd ask. I have 2.5 bottles left and need to know how slow to sip them :cool:

B1bomber
01-29-2008, 09:21
Interesting question. I'm finding it impossible to find in north Jersey. Ironically, I seem to find the Pappy 23 everywhere, even more common than the 20. Yet the 15 has all but disappeared for now. Anyone know why?

Pharaoh
01-29-2008, 10:41
Quick question about Pappy 15 (or other Van Winkle products, if appropriate). We got a bunch of PVW15 in WA in December and now it appears that most of it is gone. Is there just one annual release date of certain Van Winkle products? Does it vary by state? I know it's probably complicated but I figured I'd ask. I have 2.5 bottles left and need to know how slow to sip them :cool:I think due to limited quantities bottled / available, most Van Winkle products are allocated like the Antique Collection. At least that's the way it appears to be in California.

ggilbertva
01-29-2008, 13:19
Greg, congratulations on the franchise. If you don't mind my asking, what franchise did you purchase?

Mark

Mark,

Purchased a multi unit development of Firehouse Subs (http://www.firehousesubs.com/) in the Northern VA area. I'll be getting GC bids here in a couple of weeks and will begin buildout so unfortunately, both the Sampler and the KBF will be a no go for me this year. Guess I'll have to drink alone.

smokinjoe
01-29-2008, 13:27
Mark,

Purchased a multi unit development of Firehouse Subs (http://www.firehousesubs.com/) in the Northern VA area. I'll be getting GC bids here in a couple of weeks and will begin buildout so unfortunately, both the Sampler and the KBF will be a no go for me this year. Guess I'll have to drink alone.

Congratulations, Greg. You have my admiration for taking the plunge in a new business. Nice job. :toast: to your success!

JOE

Russellc
01-29-2008, 14:57
PVW15 seems to be my consistent favorite, a bit more character and octane than:cool: the 20, but the 20 is smoother and so is the lot B with a little less character.
Having all three on hand, I agree with everything you've expressed.

russellc

NickAtMartinis
01-29-2008, 20:14
Mark,

Purchased a multi unit development of Firehouse Subs (http://www.firehousesubs.com/) in the Northern VA area. I'll be getting GC bids here in a couple of weeks and will begin buildout so unfortunately, both the Sampler and the KBF will be a no go for me this year. Guess I'll have to drink alone.


Something tells me you'd rather be building a business. Good for you. I'd certainly do the same. Good luck!

Markoturbo
01-29-2008, 20:53
Quick question about Pappy 15 (or other Van Winkle products, if appropriate). We got a bunch of PVW15 in WA in December and now it appears that most of it is gone. Is there just one annual release date of certain Van Winkle products? Does it vary by state? I know it's probably complicated but I figured I'd ask. I have 2.5 bottles left and need to know how slow to sip them :cool:
Wa. must be similar to Oregon the allocation comes in December and is gone by January. I have found that Anique Weller 107 is a good available stand by. I was in Seattle this weekend and found our states are too similar on popular stand by inventory, Mark

Markoturbo
01-29-2008, 20:57
Van Winkle knows what we Bourbarions want, Mark

cowdery
01-29-2008, 21:46
I don't think Van Winkle does anything as formal as a set annual release like BTAC, at least Julian doesn't publicize it that way. But all Van Winkle products are very small bottlings. I think he lets it build up until he has enough demand, and enough ready product, to dump several barrels (it's not defacto single barrel, I don't think, in most cases).

Although, doesn't he bottle in the single-bottle hall? He certainly doesn't label any of his products single barrel. That's for sure, but maybe some of them are, just because the runs are so small.

Of course, some of his stuff is already in stainless.

Whatever, it is just really, really small batches. Does he tend to bottle each product once a year? More often? Less often? I don't know exactly, but I know the bottlings are very small and he probably hasn't formalized it because he doesn't see an advantage in that and would rather have the flexibility. I don't even think he batch-labels everything, but I may be wrong about that.

As for Sititzel-Weller, It has always been the case (except for that one weird Pappy 23) that everything Pappy is S-W, some of the other Van Winkles may not be, and anything Old Rip, current product, definitely is not S-W, but S-W Old Rip dusties can still be found. If any of that has changed, I haven't heard about it.

gothbat
01-29-2008, 22:05
As for Sititzel-Weller, It has always been the case (except for that one weird Pappy 23) that everything Pappy is S-W, some of the other Van Winkles may not be, and anything Old Rip, current product, definitely is not S-W, but S-W Old Rip dusties can still be found. If any of that has changed, I haven't heard about it.

I read here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6551) that the original, Lawrenceburg label, bottling of PVW20 was a rye recipe bourbon; was that one SW? Maybe no one knows, the same question is asked in that thread but maybe some new info has surfaced.

Pharaoh
01-29-2008, 22:44
I read here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6551) that the original, Lawrenceburg label, bottling of PVW20 was a rye recipe bourbon; was that one SW? Maybe no one knows, the same question is asked in that thread but maybe some new info has surfaced.If I understood correctly, the SW operation made wheat product only - if so, anything rye or rye recipe/formula could not have been SW whiskey.

My understanding is the Van Winkle 12 year old and Old Rip 10 are no longer made of or exclusively with SW whiskey.

cowdery
01-29-2008, 22:56
I read here (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6551) that the original, Lawrenceburg label, bottling of PVW20 was a rye recipe bourbon; was that one SW? Maybe no one knows, the same question is asked in that thread but maybe some new info has surfaced.

That's the "weird one" I was referring to. All the rest have been S-W, I believe.

gothbat
01-30-2008, 05:20
I had assumed it was the same case with the first 20 as with the first 23 but I began to wonder once I found that thread. I'm assuming a mystery source for that whiskey as well? Just wondering.

Pharaoh
01-30-2008, 12:27
I had assumed it was the same case with the first 20 as with the first 23 but I began to wonder once I found that thread. I'm assuming a mystery source for that whiskey as well? Just wondering.This is just my interpretation and I'm not trying to be a smart ass here - It seems until recently, "the source of" was a non issue or at least not a primary concern. The motto carried over seemed to be more along the lines of "Always good whiskey", and that's what was expected and (at least to those that faithfully liked the selection) - is what was delivered.

Knowing about or even caring about every detail behind the curtain at the magic show is more of a recent phenomenon imho. But if you do find some answers... like any other 'rubber-necker' - I wanna know too.:cool:

gothbat
01-30-2008, 15:03
Yeah, to be honest I don't know why I wonder about things like that but after finding this board and reading how specific some people can be when talking about certain bottles (ie. the same brand name coming from different distilleries or being bottled at different locations) it's become sort of an instinct. It wouldn't really affect what I buy, especially when it comes to this particular brand but it's still nice to know. The only exception, of course, would be if I myself noticed an unenjoyable difference between the products of 2 different distilleries bottled under the same name. For me it's just some trivia to remember, I suppose.

TNbourbon
01-30-2008, 21:27
I read...that the original, Lawrenceburg label, bottling of PVW20 was a rye recipe bourbon; was that one SW?..

Boone Bros. Funny that Julian has been open about the original 20, but less forthcoming about the first 23yo, which was phenomenal bourbon. We can't even bait him into responding to our 'educated':skep: guesses!:grin:

Mamba
01-30-2008, 21:42
As for Sititzel-Weller, It has always been the case (except for that one weird Pappy 23) that everything Pappy is S-W, some of the other Van Winkles may not be, and anything Old Rip, current product, definitely is not S-W, but S-W Old Rip dusties can still be found. If any of that has changed, I haven't heard about it.

I thought Julian has posted here that Pappy 15 is no longer pure SW. I'm sure you know Chuck.. Just reminding others that may be newer (and those who haven't read this entire thread).

cowdery
01-31-2008, 02:10
I was thinking it was Family Reserve but now that you refresh my memory, I think you may be right. Maybe it is the Pappy 15.

Somebody should write this stuff down.

luv2hunt
01-31-2008, 20:52
It is written here. Lot B is no longer SW. Pappy 15 is no longer 100% SW.

ACDetroit
01-31-2008, 23:05
Not here, but on the board yes! I believe Julian stated it in another Pappy 15 post!

Tony

cowdery
02-01-2008, 00:43
Yes.
Old Rip Van Winkle = Bernheim whiskey
Lot B = Family Reserve = Bernheim whiskey
Pappy 15 = mixture of SW and Bernheim
Pappy 20 & 23 = 100% SW.

NickAtMartinis
02-01-2008, 10:26
Yes.
Old Rip Van Winkle = Bernheim whiskey
Lot B = Family Reserve = Bernheim whiskey
Pappy 15 = mixture of SW and Bernheim
Pappy 20 & 23 = 100% SW.


Chuck, if I'm not mistaken, I think Julian said that he didn't care for the Bernheim for his PVW 15 so he went with BT and a mix of SW.

cowdery
02-04-2008, 11:57
I yield to superior memories, which is probably everybody compared to me.

It has always been a question how much wheated bourbon BT made before it obtained the Weller brand in 1999. It received, as part of that acquisition, whiskey from Diageo which included both SW and Bernheim. BT started to make wheated bourbon in earnest after the acquisition and it made wheated bourbon before, but not specifically to support any brand so we don't know how much.

OscarV
02-04-2008, 12:04
BT started to make wheated bourbon in earnest after the acquisition and it made wheated bourbon before, but not specifically to support any brand

If BT was not using that wheated bourbon for a brand than what were they using it for?

cowdery
02-04-2008, 17:28
They made some under contract for UD, but I don't know how much or when.