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sku
06-16-2008, 16:00
A company called C&C shine in Central California is selling new make rye and a small oak barrel for aging as part of a make-your-own rye kit.

http://www.candcshine.com/mrs.html

They also make something called Clear Madness California Moonshine, which appears to be a corn liquor (they don't call it whiskey, probably because it has added sugar).

Has anyone tried any of these or heard of this distillery?

Gillman
06-16-2008, 18:47
Very cool, good catch!

Now come on guys, you gotta try it and report results.

Gary

jinenjo
06-16-2008, 22:25
I'm very interested! I'll be nearby Salinas next weekend. I may try and pick up a barrel.

I'll keep you all posted...

Gillman
06-17-2008, 09:41
The website gives interesting background. The two principals are originally from Fort Knox, KY. They are making, out in Gonzales, CA, a corn whiskey and a rye whiskey. The corn whiskey uses corn and cane sugar ("moonshine"-style). The rye whiskey is made from corn, rye and malt I would think.

The company states that 3 months in their small, "heavy charred" barrel (2 gal.) equals 1 year in a standard barrel, so a year in the small keg might give a product (I infer) with characteristics of a decently-aged straight whiskey.

The site advises to sample the keg until satisfied with its condition.

I would think Georgia Moon could be aged in a similar way, but the offering of a rye whiskey for this purpose seems unique except for those able to buy Tuthilltown kegs of whiskey and there was that West Virginia white rye that was sold for a time, I don't know if it is still available.

Gary

Gillman
06-17-2008, 13:06
Looking at the site again, I see that the rye spirits recipe is not actually stated, so while clearly this product contains rye it is not clear as yet what else is in it. (I would think barley malt and probably corn, but am not sure). The corn spirits section states clearly that corn and sugar are used for that product.

Gary

jinenjo
06-17-2008, 21:25
It's also, as far as I could see, an unknown proof of the white dog.

Gillman
06-18-2008, 01:13
True. A taste of the spirit when unaged would confirm I think if it is whiskey in the sense we speak of here, i.e., if it is flavoursome from the grain or rather tends to neutrality. The site speaks of a pot still being used, and this may be the European hybrid still often spoken of on the board, or something else. The fact that significant benefit is expected from new charred wood aging would suggest a flavorsome whiskey product or something in that range (under 190 proof, maybe under 160). The term "spirits" in the title of the drinks might suggest a combination of whiskey and GNS. (If so this might be like a blended at birth Canadian-style whiskey except with a heightened amount of the whiskey element). Only taste tests, before and after barrel aging, will tell the tale.

Gary

NorCalBoozer
06-18-2008, 11:46
I'm very interested! I'll be nearby Salinas next weekend. I may try and pick up a barrel.

I'll keep you all posted...

ahhh, I'm in Monterey and I've seen it in local stores....I haven't tried it yet.

if you have time for a tasting while your here, let me know.

Greg.

jinenjo
06-19-2008, 19:17
Thanks Greg. I'd love to come by, but I'll be away for a birthday celebration. You'll hear from me if it's in the cards.

As for this barrel kit, I'm suddenly less interested.

I emailed the makers of the rye to ask about proofs and mash bills. Here's what he said:

"Our rye spirit is made from a moonshiner’s recipe that includes replicated Kentucky water. Our rye spirit is made of 100% rye and cane sugar. Our exit proof is 105 to 109 and is bottled at 80 proof."

I'd probably be o.k. with the rye and cane sugar, it's the 80 proof that makes me very hesitant.

Gillman
06-19-2008, 19:40
Exit proof sounds very inviting from the standpoint of tradition.

And the 80 proof should rise in the keg..

Gary

NorCalBoozer
06-20-2008, 11:57
Lear,

Don't know if you come through here often, but anytime you are by the area you're welcome to stop by for a pour.

If you're looking for a barrel....I have a toasted barrel (I believe it's 2 gallon) that I am not using.

I bought two barrels a while back and used 1 for WT Rye and never used the other. The WT Rye result was really good. It's all gone now though. :drink:

I'm gonna have to go get at least a bottle of this Rye and see what it's all about.

Greg



Thanks Greg. I'd love to come by, but I'll be away for a birthday celebration. You'll hear from me if it's in the cards.

As for this barrel kit, I'm suddenly less interested.

I emailed the makers of the rye to ask about proofs and mash bills. Here's what he said:

"Our rye spirit is made from a moonshiner’s recipe that includes replicated Kentucky water. Our rye spirit is made of 100% rye and cane sugar. Our exit proof is 105 to 109 and is bottled at 80 proof."

I'd probably be o.k. with the rye and cane sugar, it's the 80 proof that makes me very hesitant.

cowdery
06-20-2008, 16:27
When we first started to talk about re-barrel experiments, years ago, I assumed it was desirable to get as close as possible to the entry proof the professionals use. Now I'm not so sure, as I've heard about some experiments with very high entry proofs where the aging was minimal. As Mike Veach pointed out to me, it's water, not alcohol, that is called the universal solvent, so I'm not so sure 80 proof isn't perfect. In warm climates, barrel proof does tend to rise.

I think this is a great idea.

jinenjo
06-20-2008, 19:24
While I didn't measure the proof of my (mostly) Beam Rye (80 proof) rebarrel whiskey, I don't think it rose more than 5% ABV after three months of heat exposure--3% if not at all. That said, I was quite pleased with the results.

Perhaps it might be worth looking into then. I'd still like to taste this Rye spirit first. Given that it's 100% rye, I'd imagine it'd taste more like Old Potrero than a straight spirit. More that that, I now live in a place with a shed in the back yard, which would be ideal for barrel aging.

robbyvirus
06-20-2008, 20:38
I saw this rye at BevMo in San Francisco yesterday. Interestingly, what I saw was different from the website. At BevMo they were selling single bottles of the rye, and each came with a "barrel stick", which was a charred piece of wood wrapped in plastic. The instructions on the bottle said to open the bottle, dump the stick in, and let it sit on your shelf until aged to your satisfaction. Anyone have any idea of this would really work? Unfortunately I can't rememeber the price, but it wasn't too expensive.

jinenjo
06-26-2008, 18:36
If I go through with this, I was thinking of combining their rye with the corn spirit (about 2:1) to achieve more of a straight rye profile. I'd rather it be more like a straight rye than Old Potrero.

What do you think?

Gillman
06-26-2008, 18:54
Excellent idea and an example of blending at birth, which (if it needed validation) is practiced by Canadian Club and other distillers. In your case, arguably the project is even more authentic in that both products are whisky (spirit distilled out at low proof) to begin with.

Gary

ILLfarmboy
06-27-2008, 19:40
If I go through with this, I was thinking of combining their rye with the corn spirit (about 2:1) to achieve more of a straight rye profile. I'd rather it be more like a straight rye than Old Potrero.

What do you think?


Excellent idea and an example of blending at birth, which (if it needed validation) is practiced by Canadian Club and other distillers. In your case, arguably the project is even more authentic in that both products are whisky (spirit distilled out at low proof) to begin with.

Gary

I was thinking along the same lines. I recently sampled some Virginia Lightning and after reading this thread immediately thought of blending the two to approximate a 'high rye' bourbon white dog to be aged in one of their small barrels

Sweetmeats
06-27-2008, 22:59
Good luck getting this. I've been on a waiting list for months with no word. And after seeing the "barrel stick" at BevMo, I think that may be all there is.

ILLfarmboy
06-28-2008, 06:44
Some years ago the roof of my parents' barn caught on fire. It doesn't take much to catch those old wood shakes on fire. Anyhow, we replaced the burned and weakened rafters and in place of shakes or shingles we used tin sheets, the kind used for wall sheets on Buttler buildings to be exact.

In the summer it gets hotter than hell up near the roof but cools down by morning. The hay mow would be a perfect place for a home aging experiment.

jinenjo
07-01-2008, 20:17
Well, I picked up one bottle of each, the rye and corn. I'm now debating on whether or not get a second bottle of corn spirit. My thinking is, rather than half-and-half, I might want to come closer to a straight bourbon recipe (i.e. 66% corn, 33% rye). The trouble is, a second bottle is not easy to acquire now that I passed it up on the shelf in Salinas. BevMo says there's one in San Francisco.

Then again, a 1:1 ratio might produce something unique.

I'd like to go for a more well aged (approximating a 12-15 y.o.) style whiskey once I start.

ILLfarmboy
07-02-2008, 20:08
Well, I picked up one bottle of each, the rye and corn. I'm now debating on whether or not get a second bottle of corn spirit. My thinking is, rather than half-and-half, I might want to come closer to a straight bourbon recipe (i.e. 66% corn, 33% rye). The trouble is, a second bottle is not easy to acquire now that I passed it up on the shelf in Salinas. BevMo says there's one in San Francisco.

Then again, a 1:1 ratio might produce something unique.

I'd like to go for a more well aged (approximating a 12-15 y.o.) style whiskey once I start.

How does their corn spirit taste? Can you tell it was made from a corn/sugar mash verses an all grain bill?

jinenjo
07-04-2008, 10:09
With regard to your mash question: I tasted each the other night, and regrettably, I couldn't really tell, Brad.

They were quite tasty though. I was able to get both distinctive qualities out of each. A dryness and spice (although it was more like a bitter, herbal spice as opposed to a red, hot spiciness) came out in the rye dog. As for the corn, that I quite liked. In it came the typically rich, oily texture and mild sweetness.

Both were not bursting with flavor, however. The tastes seemed more subtle, almost muted. I've only had limited exposure to white dog (mostly rye), and always at full strength well above 100 proof. The Monterey spirits at 80 proof compared to genuine KY white dog makes for quite a difficult comparison.

That said, what I tasted gives me promise for the experiment.

ILLfarmboy
07-04-2008, 10:42
...... I've only had limited exposure to white dog (mostly rye), and always at full strength well above 100 proof. The Monterey spirits at 80 proof compared to genuine KY white dog makes for quite a difficult comparison.

That said, what I tasted gives me promise for the experiment.

Gosh, I wish I could taste rye white dog. Hell, I wish I could taste bourbon white dog. The closest I have come is buying a couple bottles of Virginia lightning and one jar of Georgia Moon. Virginia Lightning tastes much better, its actually enjoyable.

I look forward to reading about your home aging experiment.

Graeck
07-08-2008, 11:25
I just bought a bottle of the Monterey Rye after a friend of mine who's in to Rye recommended it. It came with a stick of medium charred American oak. I tasted it before putting the oak in and it was quite pleasant "as-is" though definitely lacking some character -- but all in all, quite nice. So I've dropped the stick in the bottle and am waiting for a month. Then I'll test again.

The bottle comes with a little card (did someone mention this?) that you can fill out and send to the company to get other "sticks". You can choose from American, French or Hungarian oak, and low, medium or high charred. I was thinking of ordering another stick and switching to a different wood two months in...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this one. My friend said it's one of the best deals in Rye. The bottle I bought ran $27.99 at a local liquor store.

CorvallisCracker
07-08-2008, 12:50
Hello Graeck. Welcome to SB.com.


Anyway, I'm looking forward to this one. My friend said it's one of the best deals in Rye. The bottle I bought ran $27.99 at a local liquor store.

Hmmmm...

For under $30 you should be able to get both Wild Turkey rye and Sazerac rye. For under $15 there's Rittenhouse Bottled-in-Bond. You might want to try those.

NorCalBoozer
07-08-2008, 13:09
Anyway, I'm looking forward to this one. My friend said it's one of the best deals in Rye. The bottle I bought ran $27.99 at a local liquor store.

That's a much better price than i saw, which was $35. I'd like to try it but I was sort of surprised at the price, since i saw the corn for $12

all in all I am looking forward to trying it so I hope that I can locate it at a more reasonable price point.

Greg

Graeck
07-08-2008, 17:02
Hello Graeck. Welcome to SB.com.



Hmmmm...

For under $30 you should be able to get both Wild Turkey rye and Sazerac rye. For under $15 there's Rittenhouse Bottled-in-Bond. You might want to try those.

He obviously felt it was better than WT and Sazerac. By "one of th best deals" I think he meant in terms of quality/price ratio...not absolute price.

I'll post the results...

jinenjo
07-08-2008, 23:23
I'll post the results...

Please do.

If the aging hasn't begun too much. I'd take out the white dog to save for the other wood sticks (if you're up for more of this experimentation). That way you'd have a baseline to compare all of them against each other.

As for the price, I paid $23 + tax for the rye and $19+ for the corn.

jinenjo
07-28-2008, 13:30
I wasn't sure whether or not to start a separate thread for my project.

I'll post a picture soon, now that I've started the aging experiment. Began it last Friday, the 26th of July. The weather's been quite cool in the morning and most of the day. Not very sunny at all (with the exception of a few days). Hopefully, it'll be more consitently sunny, then cool at night.

That's bay area weather for you.

Salut.

jinenjo
07-30-2008, 12:16
Here's a picture. I'm glad I went out to take it today, because I found there was a leak at the spigot. I emptied it to see how much I lost. Luckily, not too much.

A little extra for the angels. :skep:

NorCalBoozer
07-31-2008, 16:18
very cool, good luck. It looks like you went with the 2/3 corn and 1/3 rye. looking foward to your first results.

You're getting me fired up to try another barrel refill myself.

Greg

jinenjo
07-31-2008, 20:50
Yeah, I forgot to mention that part. I decided on a more Bourbon ratio 2:1, corn to rye.

It's exciting to start from the beginning with white spirit, rather than from a true whiskey product--already aged somewhat (as with my last experiment). I hope the results are positive. Thanks for the well wishes!

Greg, perhaps when this is all over you could come up here to Roger's group when I reveal the final spirit.

Salut!

NorCalBoozer
08-01-2008, 12:31
Yeah, I forgot to mention that part. I decided on a more Bourbon ratio 2:1, corn to rye.

It's exciting to start from the beginning with white spirit, rather than from a true whiskey product--already aged somewhat (as with my last experiment). I hope the results are positive. Thanks for the well wishes!

Greg, perhaps when this is all over you could come up here to Roger's group when I reveal the final spirit.

Salut!

Agreed. Starting from "white dog" makes it a very exciting experiment to see exactly how the barrel will influence the spirit.

I'd love to taste it, I've been unable to attend the BA get togethers for a while due to some pressing issues but hopefully I can make it up there soon.

Greg

kpendle
08-01-2008, 21:43
Lear,

I look foward to the end result. I think your last experiment turned out pretty well. I don't remember what it was up against when we tasted it but I recall it was the standout in my opinion.

Did you guys taste the Willet's 4yo at Roger's the last study group? Curious as to how that is turning out.

Ken

jinenjo
08-02-2008, 01:16
Roger finally dumped it. The end result you'll have to try.

[Roger rebarreled the Willette's 4 y.o. for close to 12 months.]

It's well aged. On its own, a little much. But I did a recent vatting with the true 4 y.o., and it's good.

cowdery
08-05-2008, 00:52
This is fascinating--the Monterey aging, that is. By all means, keep us posted.

Be sure to keep a photographic record of the color change. Always put the same, small amount in the glass, place it on a white card and photograph it from above.

If I may presume to offer that little bit of advice.

jinenjo
08-06-2008, 12:54
I'm planning to sample it once a month--perhaps more frequently after the two month mark.

Any and all suggestions, comments, and questions are welcome.

jinenjo
08-20-2008, 01:24
There's been a few warm days (by bay area standards, of course) as of late. Since my 5 liter barrel is less than half full, I've been turning it weekly. The other day, a warm one, I noticed leakage from the spigot. The warmth was causing expansion, and so the added pressure was causing excess to come out of the knob of the spigot. I've since been keeping the barrel on its side so the spirit does not reach the level of the bung or spigot.

My previous barrel did not behave this way even in the most extreme heat (in my car on a hot day). I've since contacted Bryan at 1,000 Oaks Barrels and he responded by telling me he'll send a new spigot my way. I've had nothing but good customer service from this company.

I also emptied it into bottles, temporarily, to see how much i'd lost--already over 400ml at this point--and to check to color of the whiskey. It's got plenty more time to go, yet the nose has shifted significantly toward a more bourbon-like smell, which is promising at less that one month old.

I'm keeping the barrel on top of stacks of storage bins so it is nearly touching the top of the shed--at the highest, hottest part.

jinenjo
10-16-2008, 18:47
Well, the results are in.

On Wednesday of last week, nearing three months in the barrel, I decided to take out a sample quaff--also in anticipation of bringing some to Roger's East Bay Study Group.

What I thought were simply odd (unique) profiles in the white dog became more pronounced while aging in the oak. In other words, the dominant characteristic is VINEGAR. It smells like it. Tastes less so, but it is an odd amalgam of whiskey and vinegar acidity. When I first brought the white dog to the group, my girlfriend was present and she was the one to mention how it bore resemblance to vinegar. I agreed then and even more so now.

I'll post a picture when I get a chance. The color is nice and there are sweet and oaky tones to the whiskey, yet the overall result is pretty unfavorable. Needless to say I was bummed.

Last Saturday, Neal and Roger tasted it. This was the first time Neal had ever encountered spirit from C & C Shine in Monterey, and upon nosing it he immediately said it smelled like acetic acid. We all agreed that someone at the micro-distillery must've fallen asleep at the fermenting tank. This baby went to far into vinegar territory.

Since then I've been trying to do my best to minimize any off flavors left in the barrel, so I could reuse it. I've also been thinking about sending my results and thoughts along to the folks down in Monterey to see what they might say.

As with all experiments, some are successful and others less so. That's the way the cookie crumbles, or in this case, the "whiskey don't keep". At least I could use it in cooking!

sku
10-17-2008, 00:05
Ouch. Sorry to hear that. Maybe there is a really nice salad dressing in your future.

Anyway, thanks for keeping us posted...you've taken one for the team.

spun_cookie
10-17-2008, 00:52
could add some oil and dip bread into it... sorry for the first "not so good" try. But keep at it.

NorCalBoozer
10-17-2008, 13:32
Lear,

sorry to hear that as well. But at least you saved me $30 from buying this stuff. I think it's worth giving them feedback. Maybe they will give you some replacement product or something.

Greg

Graeck
11-18-2008, 15:56
I'm now on bottle 2 of the Monterey Rye. For my first bottle, I used the (medium toast?) American oak stick that came with the bottle for ~ month, and then switched the oak out to heavy toast American for another week or so.

On the addition of the heavy toast cubes the color darkened quickly...thus after just a week or so I took them out. The result was interesting, though I think I learned a lesson with the heavy toast ... a little goes a long way. My Rye had a distinctly toasted flavor, borderline burnt. It was actually not bad - just very, erm, different. The color was about as dark as I've ever seen in a whisky. I have photos, perhaps I'll post somewhere shortly.

For bottle two, I've had the stock American Oak stick in the bottle for almost a month now. My medium toast Hungarian oak cubes just arrived today, so I think I'll switch to the Hungarian oak and see how the flavor develops. I haven't sampled this bottle at all yet. But will take a sip out before adding the Hungarian.

For my third bottle, I'm thinking of putting the oak in some port for a couple weeks first, and then putting the oak in the whisky. Has anyone tried something like this? Any recommendations on time, etc.?

- GregR

jinenjo
11-19-2008, 10:15
For my third bottle, I'm thinking of putting the oak in some port for a couple weeks first, and then putting the oak in the whisky. Has anyone tried something like this? Any recommendations on time, etc.?

- GregR

It sounds like a worthy experiment to me, Greg. As far as time goes, I can't help you much. I've only done re-barreling, and I think the chips work a lot faster. Best bet is to sample weekly or so--just do it regularly to gauge the progress. I'd like to see some pictures, and perhaps, one day, we could exchange samples.

I have to ask though, did a vinegar taste come through in your bottles?

Graeck
11-19-2008, 14:02
I have to ask though, did a vinegar taste come through in your bottles?

No, I haven't had anything like that. I ran it by two friends who have also been experimenting with MRS, and they didn't have any vinegar flavors either.