Dickel 10 yr.

These two messages (along with the one from me posted below them) first appeared in the General Bourbon Topics forum before this one was created. Thanks, Jim, for setting aside space for Tennessee Whiskey. In order to keep the thread coherent, I'm copying them here as a "starter". Or maybe you can think of it as a sort of verbal "setback" for the sour mash discussion :-)

The subject was opened by CHRIS...

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Posted by Chris
Posted on 7/13/00 12:32 PM
From IP 32.102.23.246

I know its not a bourbon, but, I would like some feedback concerning the Dickel ten yr. On the subject of another TN whisky, does anyone know the what the difference is
between the green label Jack Daniels and the regular Black Jack?? I hope you guys don't get bent out of shape with my TN whisky post...I am a novice, exploring the wide
world of whisky...thanks!!

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Followed by...

Subject Re: Dickel 10 yr.
Posted by RyanStotz
Posted on 7/13/00 2:07 PM
From IP 206.231.73.16


> I know its not a bourbon, but, I would like some feedback concerning the
> Dickel ten yr.

The least of the line by far, IMO. Too much on the sweet side, with not enough of the charcoal that makes the others, especially the #12, so great. And for the price, too,
it's just ridiculous.

> On the subject of another TN whisky, does anyone know the what the difference
> is between the green label Jack Daniels and the regular Black Jack??

About a year or two, IIRC, with the green being the younger. I prefer the black, as do most I think.

> I hope you guys don't get bent out of shape with my TN whisky post...I am a
> novice, exploring the wide world of whisky...thanks!!

Give 'em hell. I love the TN stuff. Only wish there were more of it available so it'd justify more discussion.

Stotz

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My reply to this follows. Okay everyone, let's hear it for the fine state of Volunteers!

-John Lipman-
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

Funny you should mention that, Chris. I just answered another post and raved about Jack Daniel's Single Barrel. It's an outstanding product that has the distinction (IMHO)
of being the only JD offering that surpasses the George Dickel whiskies. I feel that Dickel #8 and #12 are overwhelmingly superior to their Jack Daniel counterparts, Green
Label and Black Label. The 10-year-old Special Reserve is really great, and was (of course) my absolute favorite Tennessee whiskey and also one of my favorite American
whiskies, period... until I tasted JD Single Barrel. It's still ONE of my favorites, but the Jack Daniel product gets the edge.

By the way, now that the brands that once constituted the United Distillers' Bourbon Heritage Collection have all passed into different hands, you might want to grab
whatever bottles of Dickel Special Reserve you can find. The whiskey may still be available, under a new label, but the Bourbon Heritage Collection probably won't be.

As for the difference between Jack Daniel Black and Green, the only real difference is the proof. According to folks at Jack Daniel, there isn't any difference in the mash bill
(proportions of corn, malt, and rye), nor the age (everything's about 5 - 7 years old there). It's just the proof. The Jack Daniel black label has been cited as one of the most
well-known brand logos in the world, but you can thank Lem Motlow for that; Jack Daniel never saw it. The whiskey he produced wore the green label. Lem bottled a
special, higher proof, version with the black label to honor Jack Daniel after he died in 1911. That's the one that became world-popular. Did you know that the green label is
only sold in a few states? Also, Jack Daniel USED to be 90 proof, not 86. It's still 90 proof in foreign countries. This year, you can get special Millenium 2000 bottlings of
Jack Daniel at 90 proof here in the states. Now you wouldn't think a lousy 4 proof (2%) would make much difference, would you? But it really does. That bottling of Jack
Daniel's is really very good... but still not as good as Dickel #12 (also 90 proof -- all the time).

Thanks for opening up the topic of Tennessee Whiskey. Maybe Jim will put this out as a separate discussion. I've always been fascintated with why the whiskey industry
never resurfaced in Tennessee after Prohibition. Did you know that there were over 700 registered distilleries in Tennessee at the beginning of the 20th century? (by the
way, according the the Midas Financial Index Directory for 1911 - copyright 1910, just prior to Tennessee prohibition, Jack Daniel was registered as # 514, not # 1 as they
proudly claim today; the same directory lists George Dickel as # 392). The entire definition of Tennessee Whiskey is based on the testimony of Reagor Motlow to the
Internal Revenue Service in 1941, and at that time his distillery (Jack Daniel) was the ONLY one operating in the state. There are now all of two. It's hard for me to accept
that these two distilleries are the whole story of Tennessee Whiskey. Are there folks lurking out there in this forum who remember other Tennessee whiskey brands and
what they were like? Inquiring minds want to know!

-John Lipman-
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

Thanks for the great information. Glad to see that they added a Tennessee whiskey forum, too.

Just wanted to be a little contrary here and say that I much prefer the green label Jack to the black. That classic liquorice taste is actually pretty unusual, if you think about it, and I don't like it too strong and oily, the way I think it gets with the Black.

I highly recommend Gentleman Jack, by the way -- lighter in body, like the Green, but sweeter and much the better for it.

doug

George Dickel of any number or year is no longer availble in Virginia. It disappeared from the shelves around last Christmas. I recall another posting that Dickel's Cascade Distillery has shutdowm until further notice.

Who owns the Dickel now? Are they going to let it go the way of Stitzel-Weller/Bernheim? Are there no great barrels of the stuff laying around waiting for a fancy bottle and a decent marketing plan?

Are there no Bourbonians out there, having grown tired of losing money in the stock market, that have a bit of capital left that wouldn't like to purchase supurb barrels of G. Dickel put it into fancy bottles and market it successfully?

To quote the great Bourbonic philosopher Creggor "Where's the zing?".

Linn Spencer

Have Shotglass. [IMG]/wwwthreads/images/smile.gif[/IMG] Will Travel.

What whiskies were part of the Bourbon Heritage Collection? I think Weller Centennial was one, and--I think--VSOFitzgerald. Of course, the Dickel. But what else? I remember seeing several boxed bourbons in my favorite PA state store recently. There seemed to be about five or six different ones in the series. Thanks for the help.

SpeedyJohn

The Heritage Collection was:

George Dickel Special Barrel Reserve (10 yr., 86 proof)
Old Charter Proprietor's Reserve (13 yr., 90 proof)
I.W. Harper Gold Medal (15 yr., 80 proof)
W.L. Weller Centennial (10 yr., 100 proof)
Very Special Old Fitzgerald (12 yr., 90 proof)

The BH collection was UDV's response to Jim Beam's Small Batch Collection. I think we can safely refer to it in the past tense, since the brands are now owned by three different companies.


--Chuck Cowdery

When Diageo sold off most of its U.S. whiskies (Fitzgerald, Charter, Weller, etc.) it kept two: I.W. Harper and George Dickel, primarily because both are good sellers outside the U.S. I.W. Harper hasn't had much U.S. presence in 30 years or so, but Dickel did. It seems to be quiescent since the sale, although it's still for sale here. I have a report that the distillery is not operating and not giving tours. Visitors are told it is "temporary" but they aren't told when things will resume. Their web site (www.georgedickel.com) appears to have been put up in 1999 for a specific promotion and not touched since.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the brand portfolio on the Diageo web site (www.diageo.com), neither brand is listed.

--Chuck Cowdery

Scarey, ain't it? And the liquor store owner/managers I know haven't had an order for Special Reserve delivered since before Christmas.

Aren't computerized inventory systems wonderful? With the click of a mouse, a distributor can eliminate a product right before your very eyes. Poof! That brand's ID code is no longer available. Now what's the store owner going to do? He can't sell you that bottle on the shelf... there's no way to ring it up; and state regulators (and tax folks) don't like seeing sales of "miscellaneous" merchandise from liquor stores. His only recourse is to turn it in to the distributor for pennies on the dollar. That's the only explanation I can think of why suddenly no liquor store in three states has a bottle of something they couldn't get rid of before.

=John=
http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

Thanks, Chuck, for the info on the Heritage Collection. My fave state store has all five in stock. I've tried the IW Harper and the VSOFitzgerald, and, unfortunately, didn't care much for either of them. I found the Harper to be particularly disappointing. Maybe bottling at a higher proof would have helped, but I doubt it. It had very little flavor development and a short, uneventful finish :-(

SJ