Diageo evil?

[Josh]

If you count Diageo as evil, then you have to say the same thing about Beam. Look at what they have done with Old Crow, Old Taylor and to a lesser extent, Old Grand Dad. It can be argued that E H Taylor, Jr was the most important person in the bourbon industry in the late 19th century. The same could be said for Crow in the earlier part of the century. Beam took over these brands and sold the Old Taylor Distillery, closed Old Crow and neglected the Old Grand Dad. I won't even go into they rye side of the business that Beam purchased from National.

The point is that short term corporate profits for the last couple of decades have been more important than long range growth. This is a deadly combination in an industry that has long range production cycles. Bourbon is not made in a day and short term thinking is bad.

Mike Veach

I agree with you about short-term thinking, but from what I've read, I'm not sure if Old Crow was viable anymore or if keeping the Taylor property as a working distillery was really a viable option for Beam at the time. It certainly could and should have been kept up, maybe donated to the state or something, so I think Beam could be faulted for that.

I have never tasted any of the pre-Beam OGD (to my knowledge) so I can't speak to the differences, but I think Beam should be commended for keeping OGD alive and keeping its own distinct mashbill and continuing to offer it as a BIB and in the 114 expression. They even extended the line and created BH as a premium version.

So for me, Beam falls short of the standards of evil-ness, but might deserve a wag of the finger for what happened after it bought ND.

[OscarV]

So for me, Beam falls short of the standards of evil-ness, but might deserve a wag of the finger for what happened after it bought ND.

If you ever drank any pre-Beam Crow you would say that Beam is truly evil.

[Josh]

If you ever drank any pre-Beam Crow you would say that Beam is truly evil.

Does that mean you're going to bring some to the get together on Saturday?

[OscarV]

Does that mean you're going to bring some to the get together on Saturday?

I'll just be bringin' my memory of Old Crow.

[shoshani]

I have never tasted any of the pre-Beam OGD (to my knowledge) so I can't speak to the differences, but I think Beam should be commended for keeping OGD alive and keeping its own distinct mashbill and continuing to offer it as a BIB and in the 114 expression. They even extended the line and created BH as a premium version.

Stop and think about what sort of mindset will put out a 100 proof Bottled in Bond whiskey, then offer an 80 proof expression as a *premium* version. This was clearly a decision arrived at by marketers, not distillers....

[OscarV]

Stop and think about what sort of mindset will put out a 100 proof Bottled in Bond whiskey, then offer an 80 proof expression as a *premium* version. This was clearly a decision arrived at by marketers, not distillers....

Maybe, maybe not.
All that Old Grand-Dad stands on it's own "two feet".

[shoshani]

Do you think it would be possible for Beam to revive the old Old Crow recipe/mashbill?
I think it is to late, Old crow is dead and to reintroduce it with that name I think it would be DOA.

I don't know if Beam even has the old Old Crow mashbill; I believe conventional history has it that when Old Crow expanded their distillery in the early 1960s they somehow Schlitzed* their recipe, and despite a few protests continued to make a noticeably inferior version. There is a website with oodles of magazine ads that has some Old Crow ads, and curiously in the late 1950s or early 60s, the Bottled in Bond version simply disappeared....the ads are all for the 80 or 86 proof version (I forget which one it is.)

Then there's this curiosity: http://graphic-design.tjs-labs.com/s...8600&size=FULL .... this is a 1936 ad for National Distillers Old Crow, which was being bottled at 93 proof at 3 1/2 years old, ie distilled just after Prohibition. Old Crow was available as a bourbon and a rye as well.

Jim Murray's "Classic Bourbon Tennessee and Rye" has a section that quotes a legal paper from 1904 in which one Van Johnson gave the recipe and process for making Old Crow, having gotten both from William Mitchell who had actually worked with James Crow. His version calls for 75 to 80 percent corn, 8 to 10 percent rye and 12 to 15 percent barley malt.

*The Schlitz brewery is famous for taking their highly-regarded brewing process and introducing significant shortcuts in the 1970s that ruined the quality of their beer.

[Slob]

*The Schlitz brewery is famous for taking their highly-regarded brewing process and introducing significant shortcuts in the 1970s that ruined the quality of their beer.

Schlitz is in the process of rectifying that situation. They have reverted to their 1960's formula.

[bourbonv]

Josh,
You got my point exactly - If you are going to call Diageo evil for closing distilleries during bad economic times for the industry, then you have to say the same for Beam. It is the same thing for the most part. In both cases though, it was short sighted decisions that led to some of the worse abuses and closings. Neither are evil, just short sighted... and need I say again pretty stupid.

The story about "Old" being a bad term dates to the 1960's and personally I think that it is that generation that keeps the stigma alive. Most of the younger people I know have no problem with the term "Old" in the brand name. I do not think that reviving the Old Crow brand would be any harder than reviving Four Roses. The first step would be to put a decent whiskey in the bottle. I personally think that a Beam "Bonded Classics" collection with Old Crow at 6yo, Old Taylor at 8yo and Old Grand Dad at 10yo would sell well. You could throw in a bonded 8yo Old Overholt rye and a 10yo Mount Vernon rye for the complete American Whiskey Bonded Classics Collection.

Mike Veach

[shoshani]

I personally think that a Beam "Bonded Classics" collection with Old Crow at 6yo, Old Taylor at 8yo and Old Grand Dad at 10yo would sell well. You could throw in a bonded 8yo Old Overholt rye and a 10yo Mount Vernon rye for the complete American Whiskey Bonded Classics Collection.

Someone's been drooling over vintage National Distillers ads where all their major BiB brands were showcased. :P And I think it's an excellent idea, but it will never fly. The "brand portfolio managers" at Beam have their hands full with takers of shelf space; they probably won't welcome this sort of idea at all because where would they PUT it?