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Thread: Whiskey Tree

  1. #181
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?
    Regan & Regan's book came out around 1997 or so; it's been reissued but not revised, so any information they have for "Ancient Age Distillery" would pertain to mashbill #2, the lower corn higher rye Age International mashbill. None of the BT whiskeys (that Buffalo Trace owns and that are made to mashbill #1) were on the market yet at the time the Regans wrote their book. That being said, I can't imagine a mashbill that's higher in corn and lower in rye than 80/10/10! So that indeed cannot be correct.

    EDIT: I misspoke badly. I meant the BT whiskeys were not on the market *by BT*. Sorry about that. Benchmark, Charter, and others that BT currently owns and produces were on the market at the time the Regans wrote, but were owned and produced by other distilleries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?
    The actual classic Stitzel-Weller mashbill was, if I recall correctly, 70/18/12, a mashbill from which its derivative Maker's Mark deviates only fractionally. Over time Diageo's predecessors lowered the amount of barley malt, at one time experimenting with enzymes. What today's Heaven Hill Bernheim mashbill is, I've no idea, but they would only have what they inherited, ie the mashbills in use by UDV at the time of the sale. (I would imagine this holds true with BT and the Weller line, although the Van Winkle influence has no doubt led to their wheated mashbills at the very least being restored to the S-W proportions, if not the S-W processes. BT cooks under pressure, for example, a process Pappy spoke out against openly.)
    Last edited by shoshani; 01-12-2013 at 17:48. Reason: Factual correction

  2. #182
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by shoshani View Post
    Regan & Regan's book came out around 1997 or so; it's been reissued but not revised, so any information they have for "Ancient Age Distillery" would pertain to mashbill #2, the lower corn higher rye Age International mashbill. None of the BT whiskeys (that Buffalo Trace owns and that are made to mashbill #1) were on the market yet at the time the Regans wrote their book. That being said, I can't imagine a mashbill that's higher in corn and lower in rye than 80/10/10! So that indeed cannot be correct.

    EDIT: I misspoke badly. I meant the BT whiskeys were not on the market *by BT*. Sorry about that. Benchmark, Charter, and others that BT currently owns and produces were on the market at the time the Regans wrote, but were owned and produced by other distilleries.
    Interesting! That was the missing piece of information for me, when ER, OC, and Bm (see what I did there?) moved to BT. So as you said, it seems that R & R were saying that the AA mashbill is the 80%. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by shoshani View Post
    The actual classic Stitzel-Weller mashbill was, if I recall correctly, 70/18/12, a mashbill from which its derivative Maker's Mark deviates only fractionally. Over time Diageo's predecessors lowered the amount of barley malt, at one time experimenting with enzymes. What today's Heaven Hill Bernheim mashbill is, I've no idea, but they would only have what they inherited, ie the mashbills in use by UDV at the time of the sale. (I would imagine this holds true with BT and the Weller line, although the Van Winkle influence has no doubt led to their wheated mashbills at the very least being restored to the S-W proportions, if not the S-W processes. BT cooks under pressure, for example, a process Pappy spoke out against openly.)
    That and the first paragraph (and several other posts in this thread) really cast doubt in my mind about the accuracy of the mashbill info in that book. Did they get this information from Master Distillers? The whole thing seems like a bit of a mess to me now.

    Anyway, great post. Thanks!
    Last edited by Josh; 02-12-2013 at 17:36.
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  3. #183
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Mashbill Source: Regan & Regan, The Book of Bourbon and Other Fine American Whiskeys (London: Mixellany) 2009, unless otherwise noted. Barton, WT, and Dickel are noted as approximate.

    Brand Name (%corn/%rye or wheat/%malted barley)

    Whiskey Tree, 5.0


    Note: These tree is only a breakdown of "macro" distillers

    Barton-1792, #3 char, Independent Stave

    Barton (75/15/10)- Very Old Barton all proofs +???
    1792 (high barley?)- 1792 Ridgemont Reserve, +???
    Other Bourbons: Tom Moore BiB, Kentucky Gentleman, Kentucky Tavern, Ten High, Walker's Delluxe, other "cats & dogs".The rest, unknown
    Rye 37/53/10? (speculation based on label of High West Double Rye!)- Fleischman's Rye
    Before it was purchased by Sazerac, sold to a lot of NDPs.

    Beam, #4 char, Indepnedent Stave
    Beam Mashbill (76/13/10)- all JB bourbons, Old Crow, Old Taylor*, Knob Creek, Baker's, Booker's
    Old Grandad Mashbill (63/27/10)- OGD, Basil Hayden
    Rye- JB Rye, Old Overholt, Ri¹, Knob Creek Rye

    Brown-Forman, #3 char, Brown-Forman Cooperage
    Old Forester (72/18/10)- Old Forester, Woodford Reserve
    Early Times (79/11/10)
    Jack Daniels (80/8/12)
    Rye (see Heaven Hill below)- Current source of Heaven Hill's Pikeville and Rittenhouse ryes.
    Also sells to many NDPs.

    Buffalo Trace, #4 char, Independent Stave
    #1, higher corn BT White Dog, Benchmark, Buffalo Trace, Old Charter, Eagle Rare, Col. E.H. Taylor, Geo. T. Stagg
    #2, lower corn- Ancient Age*, Elmer T. Lee*, Hancock*, Blanton's*, Rock Hill Farms*, Virginia Gentleman/Bowman Bourbons?
    Wheat bourbon: Everything Weller, Van Winkle Special Reserve "Lot B"*, Old Rip Van Winkle*, Pappy Van Winkle 15 y/o*
    Rye: Sazerac, Bowman Rye, Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye* (?)

    Diageo, char #3, Indpendent Stave
    Dickel (80/12/8)George Dickel, Cascade Hollow

    Four Roses, #3.5 char
    Has 2 mashbills and 5 yeasts.
    All Ten Combinations- Four Roses (yellow label)
    OBSK, OBSO, OESK, OESO- Four Roses Small Batch
    OBSV- Four Roses Single Barrel
    All the combinations are also available as Single Barrel, Barrel Strength retailer bottlings.

    Also sells whiskey to Diageo that goes into Bulleit (from the high rye OBS recipes) and I.W. Harper (not available in the U.S.) and produces the overseas version of McKenna. For more information, including mashbills, see Oscar's chart here.

    Heaven Hill, #3 char, Indpendent Stave
    Rye Bourbon (75/13/12)- Heaven Hill, J.T.S. Brown, T.W. Samuels, Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna (U.S.), Parker's Heritage (except for 2010), et al. Also probably the source of Luxco's Ezra Brooks line and the current Yellowstone.
    Wheat Bourbon- Old Fitzgerald, Parker's Heritage 2010. Also probably the source of Luxco's Rebel Yell and Rebel Reserve.
    Wheat Whiskey- Bernheim Original
    Rye Whiskey (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Future source of Pikesville and Rittenhouse 80 & BiB, Stephen Foster, current source of Rittenhouse 21 & 23 (?)
    Corn Whiskey: Mellow Corn, JW Corn, Georgia Moon, Platte Valley*
    Also sells to many NDPs.

    LDI, ??? char, Independent Stave?
    Sells bourbon and rye for many brands including Templeton, Redemption et al, High West, W.H. Harrison, Cougar (Australia), Bulleit Rye and KBD. For a breakdown of the of corn, rye and bourbon whiskey mashbills used, see the MGP website: http://www.mgpingredients.com/product-list/

    Maker's Mark, #3 char, Independent Stave
    Maker's Mark (70/16/14)

    Wild Turkey, #4 "the heavy char", Independent Stave
    Bourbon (75/13/12)- Wild Turkey, Russell's Reserve Bourbon
    Rye (37/51/12, aprox.)**- Wild Turkey Rye, Russell's Reserve Rye


    Brands on the market with whiskey from closed distilleries:
    Medley Rye- Older bottlings of Hirsch, post-PA Michter's(?), Black Maple Hill rye, others?
    Mix of Medley Rye and Cream of Kentucky rye (Bernheim distillery)- Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.
    Stitzel-Weller bourbon- Pappy Van Winkle (20 & 23 only?), Jefferson's Reserve 17, 18 et al

    A few American bottlers and/or marketers have been purchasing 100% rye rye from a Canadian distillery or distilleries. It is often presumed these are from Alberta distillers in Calgary, but as of yet there is no firm evidence. So far, these are Whistle Pig, Jefferson's and Masterson's Rye. Jefferson's may be switching to American-made rye.

    *Brand(s) not wholly owned by the distiller.
    **Based on more current information.

    PROBLEMS/QUESTIONS/CONTROVERSIES: Regan & Regan list an approximate mashbill for all the bourbons made at "Ancient Age Distillery" as 80/10/10. That can't be right, but which mashbill does that represent, #1 or #2?

    Also, a mashbill of 75/20/5 is listed for Old Fitz, Weller and Rebel Yell while at Bernheim. What is the current mashbill?

    How much Stitzel-Weller is in Pappys 20 & 23, if any?

    How much Medley and Cream of Kentucky Rye does VWFRR contain, and how much Buffalo Trace distillate?

    Again, if anybody sees anything screwy, don't be shy! Post it here so it can be corrected.
    Time to dig this out again and bring it forward. Cheers.

  4. #184
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    I was at a Elijah Craig barrel selection last week where Rob Hutchins of Heaven Hill said emphatically that the HH rye bourbon mash bill was 78/11/11.
    John B

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  5. #185
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    I would've sworn that Craig Beam said in an interview the standard HH mashbill was 75/13/12 but I don't suppose a few percentage points matter that much.

  6. #186
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    Between those two, who would be in a better position to know? (I don't know what role Rob Hutchins occupies.)

  7. #187
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by SFS View Post
    Between those two, who would be in a better position to know? (I don't know what role Rob Hutchins occupies.)
    Rob was their Ambassador for the last several years. He was recently named regional mgr for KY/TN. He oversaw our barrel picks last year and authorized the dual barrel EC .. which was a first. He is a well-liked guy who will undoubtedly go far with this organization in the opinion of our local retailer.
    Jon

  8. #188
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    So who would be in a better position to know a mashbill, the master distiller, or a brand ambassador? It would seem to me, the "boots on the ground" would belong to the master distiller.

  9. #189
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    I just thought I was pointing out something that was fairly well known but it doesn't matter to me, I'll buy it however they make it.

  10. #190
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    Re: Whiskey Tree

    Good discussion!

    I like Rob a lot, but I'm inclined to stick with what Craig said and what's currently on the tree. If someone can get somebody else who is in a position to know to confirm that 78% corn number, then I will change it.
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