Hirsch 21 year old Rye...

[Virus_Of_Life]

Sources have told me that it'd old Medley. The Hirsch 21 was bottled in, you guessed it, Bardstown. KBD. The same bottlers of Vintage 21 and 23, which were Medley as well. Black Maple Hill 23 came from this, as well.

If that is in fact true, then it is probably outstanding as Mike (Scratchline) said. I found Vintage 21 to be phenomenal stuff, better than Saz18 and the later VW releases. The early VWs which were Medley are some of the best whiskey put in a bottle IMHO.

I believe the Saz18 was from the CoK batches talked about elsewhere, and while very good in it's own right, isn't quite as good as the Medley stock.

Many of us have issues with KBD, but there is no doubt they've put some barrels together and created some great tasting product over the years.

[White Dog]

If that is in fact true, then it is probably outstanding as Mike (Scratchline) said. I found Vintage 21 to be phenomenal stuff, better than Saz18 and the later VW releases. The early VWs which were Medley are some of the best whiskey put in a bottle IMHO.

I believe the Saz18 was from the CoK batches talked about elsewhere, and while very good in it's own right, isn't quite as good as the Medley stock.

Many of us have issues with KBD, but there is no doubt they've put some barrels together and created some great tasting product over the years.

I agree with you on all points. Yes, the Vintage 21 was spectacular, as was BMH23, and Hirsch 21, 22, and 25. All same source, or so the story goes. I mean, how much old Rye could the Kulsveens have gotten their hands on? Plus, it's now all dried up except for the Hirsch 25, which I believe may be the last of the Medley to be released. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Unlike Bourbon, I cannot get enough age on a mature Rye.

A note to all producers, STOP TANKING YOUR OLD RYE!

[cowdery]

One reason that whiskey has lasted so long is that most of these bottlings have been very small, maybe they would get 20 bottles out of a barrel, or 30. Very small quantities. This is where we forget we live in a very rarified world. Many of us are used to seeing KBD's Vintage label at retail because it's stocked where we shop, but there are very few bottles out there in very few stores. Lest Drew think I'm making this up, I'm referring to numbers he provided. And good for KBD. That's a boutique niche and I'm glad they can make a business out of it.

[Rughi]

The Willett/Redhook Ryes yielded extremely large amounts of bottles:

Willett #1 (Doug) 263 bottles
Willett #2 (Doug and Neal) 216 bottles
Willett "Iron Fist" 211 bottles
Willett "Velvet Glove" 220 bottles

I don't have any Redhooks out, but being sister barrels I believe they are in line.

Compare that to the 3 Four Roses bottlings we've done, which yielded between 130 and 175 bottles, and the crazy low yield of the McKenna 10yo we just did, which would have yielded about 75 bottles at barrel proof.

The KBD COK bottlings went out in some of the largest volumes of single barrels I know of. Here's some fun reading on them.

Roger

[cowdery]

"Large" and "small" are relative terms. I don't consider a release of 910 barrels very large, although some releases from some of those same sources were even smaller. I'm talking about KBD's own brands, where they can essentially bottle stuff when they sell it. But my point is let's say what KBD got was 50 barrels. In the scheme of things that's not very much, but they have drawn from them for several years and created a whole bunch of different products from a relatively small stock of barrels. That's my point. That's why these same sources seem to have been around for forever.

Whiskey made 10 years ago, or 12 years ago, isn't on the open market today. It's being kept and marketed by the distilleries that made it. A non-distiller producer needs a long term contract with a distiller or they need to buy new make or fairly young whiskey and finish aging it themselves. The spot market for older whiskey, bourbon or rye, is gone.

[callmeox]

I thought the reason for the high bottle yield on the COK/Willett ryes was due to original barrels being combined into one and then aged for additional time? Any other explanation would involve neglectful angels.

[Rughi]

I thought the reason for the high bottle yield on the COK/Willett ryes was due to original barrels being combined into one and then aged for additional time? Any other explanation would involve neglectful angels.

Exactly - the point being they were bottled in increments more like 200 than 20 bottles per single barrel.

[cowdery]

None of which changes the point that a small number of barrels have yielded a very large number of products due to extremely small releases, so of as little as 20 bottles, others of several hundred bottles, which is still very small.

By comparion, when somebody like Woodford Reserve does a small, very limited Master's Collection release, it's about 3,000 bottles.

[squire]

I like the details our forum members are able to suss out, won't change my buying habits but they are fun to read.