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  1. #11
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    The foaming problem apparently occurs with malted or unmalted rye, or at least that's what I've understood from this reading.

    That use of Glengoyne makes sense subject to the issue of esteriness. I'd adjust the rye whiskey in your blend by adding such whisky, such that the barley malt component ends up being 20%. You might consider using Stranahan's Colorado Whiskey, Scott, since it has the advantage of being aged in new charred wood, however I don't recall if it is peated. If so of course I wouldn't use it. For the fruity side, I'd consider regular Glenmorangie: fruity, not peated. Or toss in some sherry.

    Gary

  2. #12
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillman View Post
    The foaming problem apparently occurs with malted or unmalted rye, or at least that's what I've understood from this reading.
    Okay, it was my interpretation that it was the result of unmalted and malted rye in combination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillman View Post
    That use of Glengoyne makes sense subject to the issue of esteriness. I'd adjust the rye whiskey in your blend by adding such whisky, such that the barley malt component ends up being 20%. You might consider using Stranahan's Colorado Whiskey, Scott, since it has the advantage of being aged in new charred wood, however I don't recall if it is peated. If so of course I wouldn't use it. For the fruity side, I'd consider regular Glenmorangie: fruity, not peated. Or toss in some sherry.
    Gary
    Stanahan's is not available in OR. Occasionally House Spirits up in Portland releases some charred-barrel-aged unpeated malt, usually about 2.5yo. I should call and see if they have any currently available.

    Glenmorangie is peated, I believe, just not much (don't know the ppm). As for sherry, perhaps a dash of a'bunadh. It's peated at 3ppm, a level so low it begs the question "why bother?" (not to mention any peat is buried under all that sherry). Perhaps the malt component could be 1:1:1 of Glengoyne 10/Glenmorangie 10/Aberlour a'bunadh (all of which I have on hand). The last would boost the proof a bit (after all the Large is a BiB).

    Not sure that the fruit in the Large is all that sherryish. Need to taste it again (both me and my wife, who's better at such things). If we can pick out some specific fruit(s), might be better to add a dash of the right type of liqueur.
    Scott

    "Remember that your sense of humor is inversely proportional to your level of intolerance."
    - Serge Storms

  3. #13
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    All good approaches IMO, I'm sure it will be great.

    Gary

  4. #14
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    All rye mashes I have worked with foam. Ones with barley malt seem to be less prone to it. It is sporadic. I think weather must effect it. I have had rye mash over flow a fermenter that was half full and run uphill, and be on a wall 10 feet away. The a fermenter set 6 hours later not foam nearly as bad. Sometimes it just gets pissed off I think. There are some very effective anti foamers out there, but I do not like using them.

  5. #15
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    I like the fact of the unpredictability although I realise it makes the job of Tom and other distillers harder. Despite the modern science, the organoleptic this and chromatographic that, you can't fully master all the incidents, you can't always tell when that sucker in the vat will get ornery! It's another aspect of the enigma whiskey still is, one of the many quirks on the long strange trip from paint-cleaner to the opulent richness of old rye whiskey, say...

    Gary
    Last edited by Gillman; 05-01-2012 at 05:00.

  6. #16
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillman View Post
    I like the fact of the unpredictability although I realise it makes the job of Tom and other distillers harder. Despite the modern science, the organoleptic this and chromatographic that, you can't fully master all the incidents, you can't always tell when that sucker in the vat will get ornery! It's another aspect of the enigma whiskey still is, one of the many quirks on the long strange trip from paint-cleaner to the opulent richness of old rye whiskey, say...

    Gary
    What was the classic Monongahela rye, then - malted, or unmalted with a dash of malted something or other (rye or barley) to assist fermentation?

    Fritz Maytag seems convinced that the original American Rye Whiskey was 100% malted rye, thus using that for Old Potrero. But I'm getting the impression, particularly from some of the excerpts you've posted here, that it was similar to Bulleit: unmalted rye with a dash of malted grain. (LDI used 5% malted rye back when Seagram owned it; now, of course, that 5% is malted barley.)

  7. #17
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    From what I've read, e.g. in Samuel M'Harry's book (circa 1810) or F.X. Byrn (around 1860), the mashbills for rye whiskey then were based on unmalted rye with the small grain being malted barley. The percentages of each varied, sometimes 90%-10%, sometimes 80%-20%. 70%-30% was mentioned in at least one source IIRC. Barley malt varies in enzymatic power and starch content with the seasons, so probably even the same distillery changed it around to get the result they wanted. IIRC again, Byrn said you could substitute malted corn for the malted barley. (Incidentally both M'Harry and Byrn lived in Pennsylvania, home of Monongahela rye whiskey).

    There would have been variations though amongst distillers, and maybe some did use 100% malted rye. I think Canadians did for their flavoring whisky, or for some types of rye marketed around 1900 at any rate.

    Given barley malt has the power to convert starch to sugar well beyond the starch content of its own kernel, there would have been no incentive I believe to use all-malted grains (since more expensive than unmalted), unless there was a specific reason. Flavor may have been a reason, which is way traditional malt whisky in Scotland is 100% barley malt. Anchor's approach is just one particular approach amongst a range of possibilities.

    But based on what I've read, the typical Pennsylvania rye recipe was 80 or 90% raw rye and the rest barley malt.

    Gary
    Last edited by Gillman; 05-01-2012 at 07:38.

  8. #18
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    This 1890 record of speeches in the Canadian Senate is very interesting, I draw attention to the comments of Mr. Read, who was a distiller for 25 years:

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=vTkl...whisky&f=false

    First, he confirms that Canadian whisky originally did not use corn. He states no corn was distilled in Canada before 1845. This is why surely to this day Canadians call their whisky rye whisky (amongst other names). The name dates from a time when it really was made from rye and popular usage has never abandoned it even though most Canadian whisky today uses corn as the base.

    As to the mashbill of "old rye", which in my opinion was a straight-type rye, akin to Monongahela, he says it was rye (i.e., raw rye), malted barley and sometimes oats although he never used oats. So this IMO shows another source for a typical mid-1800's rye whiskey mashbill as being a combo of those grains.

    But once again, it doesn't mean everyone then used this. Some distillers may have used 100% malted rye, perhaps they liked the flavor, or had some other reason. Raw rye can be quite pungent in flavour even after 4 years in charred wood never mind uncharred oak or a quick rinse in maple charcoal vats (which some Canadian distillers did then).

    Is it any wonder that without a tradition of using only new charred wood to age, Canadian rye ended as a blend? Even 10% rye flavoring whisky pokes its nose through a blend with 90% aged spirit distilled at a high proof.

    Hey Tom what's Read talking about re a cap and all that, about the kernels of corn sinking unless you put some kind of support in the vat? I couldn't follow that.

    Gary

  9. #19
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillman View Post
    Hey Tom what's Read talking about re a cap and all that, about the kernels of corn sinking unless you put some kind of support in the vat? I couldn't follow that.

    Gary
    He says the shells of the corn are heavy and cause it to sink. The same phenomenon is noted in Harrison Hall's "The Distiller" from 1818. His Pennsylvania book (it's on Google but I lost the link when I downloaded the PDF) cautions against using a mash of 100% corn, saying that because of the bran it tends to sink to the bottom of the hogshead and is thus difficult to ferment. Most of Hall's mashes are proportions of corn and rye; he considers a mixture of the two to make a better and purer spirit than either alone, but says you can use as little as 25% rye.

    Getting back to Read, it's interesting the overwhelming prejudice he has against corn, because of its fusel oils. Because both he and Hall talk about the shell or bran of the corn weighing it down, I wonder whether the corn they were using was milled or not...it almost sounds like whole kernels.

  10. #20
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    Re: Two halves that make a mighty tasty whole: Bulleit Rye and Old Potrero 19th Centu

    Well that's it, normal milled and mashed corn shouldn't act like that, I wonder if they just soaked regular corn that had been dried. Perhaps the effect of the kernel created more fusels? Although rye is still fuselly too.

    Gary

 

 

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