Rum Forum

[T Comp]

On the subject of mingling bourbon and ED 12 rum: some successes, some failures. As I mentioned earlier, Old HH 8/86 was a success. WTRB was not. It really brings out the bitterness on the finish.

The surprise winner was Jefferson's 10 year rye (the newer, non-Canadian). Wowza! at about 2:1 rye to rum this is killer. I think the rum balances out the all-rye mash perfectly. I also tried it with some Willett 5 year (LDI) rye and it was good but need more oak. I'm tempted to buy another bottle of Jefferson's and vat the whole thing, it's that good.

Me too...except it will be my first buy of Jefferson's rye . And I've never found WT products to be able to mingle well with anything, even water...just always makes it more bitter. Though, wait a minute, Vermouth and bitters...WT does make a good Manhattan. Thanks for sharing Brisko.

And another thing on WT...as I have just sipped on some Kentucky Spirit and 101 (no Rare Breed currently open). Though it does not match the full on rum taste in some dusties, it still does have some rummy traces, more so than other modern bourbons and maybe that sabotages the ED mingling too.

[Gillman]

I agree viz. Wild Turkey, that bird is not of a feather with very much else, except Coke maybe.

Excellent notion to mingle rum and rye or other straight whiskey. Just a little is enough I find. Bourbon used to be more rum-like than it is, so it makes perfect sense. And anyway, why not?

Gary

[sailor22]

At what point does a vatting become a cocktail?

[Gillman]

That is a good question. Really there is no absolute answer. Most would say, and I would agree, that the spirits to be vatted should be of the same type. But eg some places allow spirit caramel to be added to a blend, or "flavoring". So what if you added, within any permitted parameters, a sweet and dark rum instead of the boiled sugar, or used the latter as flavoring...? I guess my own personal answer would be, if the addition can be detected, it becomes a cocktail, but the whole thing is relative in other words (IMO).

Gary

[ChainWhip]

I think Compass Box blends Single Malt & "grain" whiskies. While I'm not sure what a grain whisky actually is, I'm guessing its a separate class of spirit from Single Malt. High West also comes to mind with their bourbon/rye/scotch blends.

For me, I'm of the opinion that it is not a cocktail as long as it is vatted with spirits only. Once you add coloring/sugars/bitters/etc., then it's no longer purely a spirit. Of course, this narrow view could be problematic as it renders bottles like my Lagavulin 16 into a different class.

[squire]

Grain whiskys are distillates made from a grain (corn, rye, wheat or barley) in a column still (single malt uses a pot still) which come off at a higher proof than allowed for single malt and are aged in used barrels. Grain whiskys are just as old as the single malt used in an age stated blend (12 years old on the label, for instance) though the high proof rates off the still and in the used barrel don't allow grain whisky to gain much in the way of barrel flavor. The distillate quality is high, though and what isn't aged for whisky is used for gin and vodka.

In short, grain whisky is cheaper to make and age and that's why blends cost less than single malts.

[tanstaafl2]

At what point does a vatting become a cocktail?

Back when the word cocktail had a separate definition (early 1800's) as one of the many categories of alcoholic drinks (to include slings, fizzes, flips, punches, juleps, sours, etc.) a cocktail was defined as "a stimulating liquor, composed of spirits of any kind, sugar, water and bitters".

Now that a cocktail is broadly used to cover all types of drinks the use of the term "old fashioned" was essentially used to describe the original style of the cocktail, i.e. the "old fashioned cocktail" of the definition above.

Also now that a cocktail is more typically and broadly defined as almost any alcoholic drink it is less clear. More common current definitions include "an iced drink of distilled liquor mixed with flavoring ingredients" or "an alcoholic mixed drink that contains three or more ingredients—at least one of the ingredients must be a spirit".

A spirit being defined on Wiki as an alcoholic beverage containing ethanol that is produced by distilling ethanol produced by means of fermenting grain, fruit, or vegetables. This excludes undistilled fermented beverages such as beer, wine or cider. Although some definitions of a cocktail will include wine as a potential base spirit and some older cocktails used wine as a base spirit. It is perhaps a bit less common today to use wine but it no doubt still occurs.

Under that definition a vatting of spirits only doesn't really seem to fit well although if you counted one spirit as the base and the others as "flavorings" I guess you could fudge it.

To me it's a bit like pornography. I know it when I see it...

[squire]

Straight whisky in a glass is a drink. Pour something non-whisky in with it creates a cocktail.

[Brisko]

Well, I'll leave the question of "is it a cocktail" to the more learned among us but I revisited the "Rum 'n' Rye" again last night and it was just right.

Side question, is El Dorado 15 any less sweet than its 12 year old brother? I really like it but sometimes it's just too sweet on its own. Do you guys have any recommendations?

[tanstaafl2]

Well, I'll leave the question of "is it a cocktail" to the more learned among us but I revisited the "Rum 'n' Rye" again last night and it was just right.

Side question, is El Dorado 15 any less sweet than its 12 year old brother? I really like it but sometimes it's just too sweet on its own. Do you guys have any recommendations?

They are somewhat different as they are not simply the same rum that is 3 years older. I think the 12 is the slightly drier of the two but that is just my sense of the two. You would think it might be other way but that is not what I have found. The 21 might be drier but I haven't tried that in a while and that would certainly be a much more expensive pour! I just got a bottle of the 21 to go with my 12 and 15 so perhaps a little rum flight is in order!