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Thread: Jack Rye?

  1. #71
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    Considering the proof and price point, I think I know all I need to know about this one PASS!
    Gary
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  2. #72
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    I wouldn't prejudge the question viz. mixture of rye white dog and neutral spirit, if it states both rye mash and neutral spirit, why assume it is only the latter? It doesn't say 100% neutral spirit. It does say class, yes, and the rye mash part is under "type", but those aren't really defined terms anywhere I believe. Is a mixture of such elements required to be stated on the label as percentages? I don't think so but didn't look at the regs with that in mind to be sure.

    In fact, since white dog is an acquired taste for many, it would make sense to cut it so to speak with GNS. Sort of like spirit whiskey under the regs, except there is no whiskey here.

    However, I incline towards all-neutral spirit in this case.

    I'm pretty sure I've seen "rye vodka" in the market, so this could be sort of like that, except "rye neutral spirit". Clearly it isn't flavorless, so it presumably was distilled in a way to skip some of the final rectification steps that make vodka, e.g. extractive distillation. It may be what is called in the vodka trade an "intermediate" product meaning it has noticeable odor and flavor. Maybe too they didn't do the "draws" vodka and some grain whisky undergoes, to remove e.g. certain fusels off the trays.

    Anyway, given that this product would potentially interest the knowledgeable part of the bourbon and rye-buying public, I hope the company will explain in detail what the bottle contains and what it was trying to achieve. It is in its interest to do so, IMO. Today "people want to know", and I'd buy it (despite the price) if I understood fully what it is and what flavor profile they were going after.

    Gary
    Last edited by Gillman; 10-06-2012 at 18:16.

  3. #73
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    I was going to say, "not to belabor the point," but fuck it, I'm belaboring the point. Please consider the follow before spinning any silly theories about how a 70% ABV distillate can be labeled 'neutral spirit6'. While I suppose it's true that 'class' and 'type' are not explicitly defined, the intent of their use is pretty clear in context, and what do you know. "Class 1" is neutral spirits, aka alcohol.

    Sec. 5.22 The standards of identity.
    Standards of identity for the several classes and types of distilled spirits set forth in this section shall be as follows (see also Sec. 5.35, class and type):

    (a) Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol.
    "Neutral spirits'' or "alcohol'' are distilled spirits produced from any material at or above 190[deg] proof, and, if bottled, bottled at not less than 80[deg] proof.
    (1) "Vodka'' is neutral spirits so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color.
    (2) "Grain spirits'' are neutral spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain and stored in oak containers.


    (b) Class 2; whisky.
    "Whisky'' is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less than 190[deg] proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80[deg] proof, and also includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are prescribed.
    (1)(i) "Bourbon whisky'', "rye whisky'', "wheat whisky'', "malt whisky'', or "rye malt whisky'' is whisky produced at not exceeding 160[deg] proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125[deg] proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.
    (ii) "Corn whisky'' is whisky produced at not exceeding 160[deg] proof from a fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn grain, and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 125[deg] proof in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood; and also includes mixtures of such whisky.


    An interesting fact that was pointed out to me via email: after Daniel's resumed distilling in 1938, they made and sold corn whiskey. However, since the Jack Daniel's mash bill is 80 percent corn, it must have been the same mashbill, based on Jeff Arnett's claim that JD Rye is the first new grain recipe since Prohibition. They also made fruit spirits in those days, but Arnett was careful to say grain.

    So everything they're saying is consistent. What's inconsistent is what the label says. I defy anyone to find any ambiguity in the regulation for "Class: Neutral Spirit," which is how the product is labeled.
    Last edited by cowdery; 10-07-2012 at 20:50.

  4. #74
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    And the words "rye mash" are on the label because Section 532 says that when a product contains neutral spirits, the "name of commodity from which distilled" must be disclosed on the label. The reg gives the examples of "grain," "cane," and "fruit," but since rye is a grain, there was probabably no objection to that being used as the commodity disclosure. That, of course, raises another question, since it wasn't 100% rye, although it was 100% grain.
    Last edited by cowdery; 10-07-2012 at 21:04.

  5. #75
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    "Probabably" is a way to indicate high probability. Or is that high probabability?

  6. #76
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    If you are talking about me, none of my theories are "silly". They are attempts to parse a label in the context of statements I heard in an interview with Jeff Arnett, Mark's last statements in the thread, and also taste reports which seem to veer away from a typical neutral spirits palate. Rye is not the only "grain" in rye mash, so that doesn't necessarily satisfy a statement of grain type as you've pointed out yourself.

    I noticed right away the reference to neutral spirit on the label and have been trying to figure out ever since what it means.

    On the other hand, it may be and I have said I incline currently to thinking, it is 100% neutral spirit.

    But until there is final clarification, other possibilities still exist. Amongst these, the most plausible is that it is new make rye mash spirit. I can't explain why the term neutral spirit is on the label if this is the case, maybe it is an "error", or the government allowed it for some specific reason. I don't know.

    One of the whiskey writers will nail it down soon and tell us, I'm sure.

    Gary
    Last edited by Gillman; 10-08-2012 at 05:47.

  7. #77
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    The approved TTB label says neutral spirit aka Jack Daniel's Vodka. Despite any comment Jeff Arnett made to the contrary, the regs are well stated - this product is vodka.

    Gary -Canada does have different regs than the US, so perhaps Jeff could make his statements addressing Canada or some other market, but in the US it simple can't be spun any other way.

  8. #78
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    Quote Originally Posted by callmeox View Post
    The COLA also shows a type of Neutral Spirits, so either the TTB has gone further off the rails or the fibbing is strong on this product from BF.

    Also in the TTB registry for JD are label approvals for whiskey products called Before and After in 375ML sizes. Keep an eye out for a white whiskey/aged whiskey twin pack from the house of Daniel's.
    Looking at those "Before" and "After" labels on the COLA, they prominently say "not for sale" and the side text speaks of tasting glasses. Seems that these are samples of the Jack white dog before and after the charcoal for use as part of the distillery tour. Surprised they'd have to get COLAs for them, but that seems to be what they are. So I wouldn't expect a twin pack in the near future.

    Addendum: Just realized, if Arnett's comments are accurate, then the "after" is the corn equivalent of the new Jack Rye. Which only makes the "neutral spirit" label even more questionable.
    Last edited by oknazevad; 10-08-2012 at 10:56.

  9. #79
    Mr. Anal Retentive Bourbon Drinker
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    I've been posting on Whiskycast facebook site, I think this is the direct link - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

    Mark's says Jack received TTB approval to call this spirit distilled to 140 proof a neutral spirit. There is no TTB class/type setup for an unaged Rye Whiskey.

    I say that the TTB screwed up (and not for the 1st time). The regs clearly state neutral spirits are to be distilled over 190 proof. They should not have given Jack Daniels an exception for this. Not that it will do much good, but I will file a complaint on their web based application system. Instead of giving an exception to the "class", the TTB should have given an exception to the "type" I would suggest allowing the type to be "Unaged Rye Whiskey", which makes way more sense than calling this a neutral spirit.

  10. #80
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    Re: Jack Rye?

    My guess with the before and after products is that they want to make them available to ambassadors who will do tastings around the country. As I mentioned previously, they've been doing that particular tasting at the distillery, for press and industry guests, for years. They probably need to formalize the packaging for that kind of distribution. I've noticed some changes in the way they label tasting samples sent to people like me.

    I don't want to single out any individuals, but as Wade points out, the range of possibilities regarding the labeling issue is quite narrow, therefore any theory outside that range is, at best, 'silly' or, if you prefer, 'fanciful.'

 

 

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