Age and Wood Taste (?)

[CoMobourbon]

What follows is a stupid-simple question, but I think it could clear up a lot for relative newcomers to the bourbon scene like me.

What, generally, is the relationship between the intensity of distinctive woody flavors in a whiskey and the time that whiskey has spent in a barrel? I have always assumed that it was a simple direct relationship (more age = more wood taste), but is it possible that it is more complicated than that?

When I say 'distinctive woody flavors', I mean flavors like vanilla oak or green bark astringency. I understand that most whiskey taste comes from the interaction between distillate and oak, but I am talking specifically about those flavors that evoke the wood itself. So not the fruitiness or sugary sweetness or other tastes which may have something to do with the barrel but do not taste particularly like wood.

This question, for the record, stems from my recent experience with a bottle of EC 12, which has been my oldest bourbon to date. Expecting strong oaky strains - and bracing myself for possible bitter astringency - I found that a rich, fat, mildly hot, and somewhat fruity (apple/pear?) sweetness predominated. The wood presented itself only in a softly oaky vanilla warmth that supported the general sweetness. My EWB (4ish years?), on the other hand, shows much more woodiness - astringency, in its case. The EC 12 was good, in short, but it totally defied my expectations about its woodiness.

This experience, in turn, seems to parallel my experiences with Basil Hayden 8 year and OGD 114 (again, 4ish years?) . I like both, especially the latter, but I could not help but notice a more distinct/intense woody aspect to the Old Grand Dad. Again, this experience totally belied my common sense expectations about age and wood.

What is going on here? Is it possible - and this is my new assumption in the works - that woody flavors peak at a certain stage in the aging of any given whiskey and then become more moderate? I mean, I have heard of over-aging as causing intensely woody (sometimes bitterly astringent) flavor profiles, but my limited experience to date seems to suggest otherwise.

*(All of this takes all other factors like mashbill and toasting and what-have-you as constant, by the way. I could see, for example, how WT's aggressive toasting could produce the flavor profile that it does.)

[StraightNoChaser]

Sooooo many factors to consider...

Grain tightness
Assemblage of staves
Length of yard aging
Terroir of the wood itself
Barrel entry proof
Char and toast levels
Barrel location in the warehouse (and to another degree, location of that warehouse)

And a handful more that I can't come up with off the top of my head

[CoMobourbon]

Sooooo many factors to consider...

Grain tightness
Assemblage of staves
Length of yard aging
Terroir of the wood itself
Barrel entry proof
Char and toast levels
Barrel location in the warehouse (and to another degree, location of that warehouse)

And a handful more that I can't come up with off the top of my head

Sorry - didn't get in my edit in time.

My question would take all of those other factors as constant (as if that were ever possible, right?). I realize that the experiences listed above involve only a really small sample size subjected to lots and lots of variables, so I am asking whether or not those experiences can be generalized in any way. Or if they cannot be generalized in any way. Or if there is a pattern to woody taste and age that these experiences are not showing at all. Whatever you got.

[StraightNoChaser]

Well... if all the supposed factors were constant, and every barrel was exactly the same in wood, construction, char profile, BEP, location, etc.... it's reasonable to say you'd have only minimal variation in the contents.

But in reality that's hardly the case, hence why whiskey flavors can develop so differently in each separate barrel. That's just the nature of... nature.

[darylld911]

I think StraightNoChaser hit a lot of the differences. You can have ten different bourbons aged 6 years and have different levels of woody flavors. I think you can also have a bourbon that is older with less of those flavors than a younger bourbon. Keep in mind that unless it is a single barrel, the age statement is that of the youngest whiskey in the bottle (so it may say 6 years, but contain some older whiskey if necessary to match their desired flavor profile).

Even the same brand (for example, EC12 vs EC18) may come from different areas of the rick house. I guess in theory if you put two barrels of EC next to one another and let one age for 12 years (then bottle it) and another age longer, you could compare the two and might reasonably except the older one to have more of those woody flavors. But in terms of judging age statements on bottles to determine the flavor, I think you're better off finding a taste somewhere to decide for yourself. Just my two cents

[CoMobourbon]

Well... if all the supposed factors were constant, and every barrel was exactly the same in wood, construction, char profile, BEP, location, etc.... it's reasonable to say you'd have only minimal variation in the contents.

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that there is little-to-no relationship at all between time in barrel and the presence of woody flavors? That, all other things being equal (all other factors made constant and therefore neutralized), time in barrel does not cause woodiness in any predictable pattern (up-and-up, up-then-down-a-little, up-then-down-a-lot, etc.)?

I think StraightNoChaser hit a lot of the differences. You can have ten different bourbons aged 6 years and have different levels of woody flavors.

Of course, of course, with so many variables at play in a 'natural' setting, you would need a huge sample size - thousands of different bourbon samples - to see a firm pattern emerge - way more than ten different bottlings, and maybe way more bottlings than any one person could possibly ever drink. And I am totally on the same page about how general patterns may not be reliable predictors of personal taste, the best way to find what you like is to try things, and all those other SB orthodoxies about taste.

I guess I just wonder if a whole community of enthusiast consumers has had enough (thousands of?) different bourbon bottlings that it could collectively notice a general pattern, even in a real-life field of samples in which all the factors are present. If the sample size is large enough, then a one-to-one relationship between two variables will show up, all of the other variables be damned.

But SNC might really be right (if I am reading him correctly); there might not be any such relationship. His bourbon sample size has got to be way bigger than mine, anyway.

[StraightNoChaser]

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that there is little-to-no relationship at all between time in barrel and the presence of woody flavors? That, all other things being equal (all other factors made constant and therefore neutralized), time in barrel does not cause woodiness in any predictable pattern (up-and-up, up-then-down-a-little, up-then-down-a-lot, etc.)?

I definitely think there is a relationship between age and wood influence. However, there are too many other factors at play for you to base it solely on time spent in wood.

[Steve99]

Comobourbon
I share your questions, and my experience is the same from what I interpret of your post.

I do not tend to like the young bourbons. I tend to like the older ones. I find the younger to have an overly oaky taste. I'm confused just as you as it would seem that the older would have more of that astringent wood taste. My only explanation (to myself) is that the older ones have been selected by the distillers/masters as those that have picked up more of the positive complexities from the wood. The younger are more plentiful, and therefor cheaper. One wild card in my generalizations, I love EC12, but don't care for EC18, but haven't found anything better than Stagg. Go figure.

I am just trying to focus on learning what I like best while trying to learn in general as I go along. I'm no expert, but just sharing my own experiences for what it's worth. One thing I know: I love bourbon, at it's best it's got a lot of complexity and offers a lot of enjoyment and complexity for me to continue to learn about for a long time!

Cheers!

[Bourbon Boiler]

I'm not an expert, but I think the problem in understanding comes in a very vague description of "oaky" flavors. You mentioned you aren't looking for the cinnamon or sugar flavors, but many flavors, good or bad can be considered "oaky"

If you want to do an experiment, age some white dogs in white oak char. It's sold at BT and Barton, and probably elsewhere. In about 36 hours, you will have a dark color and the heat of the white dog will be subdued. In a week, it will tast like a bad, young bourbon. In a month, it will have a green tint to it and will be incredibly bitter. The longer it ages, the more bitter it will become.

If you want a better flavor, it needs to have more wood contact that just the char. If you look at a used barrel stave, you'll note that there is a visible red line which shows how far the juice went into the wood. The longer the aging, the deeper the line. In almost all cases, it is well beyond the char line.

Thus in your younger whiskies, although the bourbon had less time in contact with wood, it had a much higher percentage of it wood contact with the charred portion. An older whisey will have more contact with wood, but a much higher percentage of that contact with uncharred oak. I think the basis of your question is that you're only considering the flavor from the char attributable to the barrel.

[CoMobourbon]

I'm not an expert, but I think the problem in understanding comes in a very vague description of "oaky" flavors. You mentioned you aren't looking for the cinnamon or sugar flavors, but many flavors, good or bad can be considered "oaky"

The defining of terms was deliberately vague so as to fit an intuitive question. In fact, any specific flavors I listed only serve as examples to these broad categories: flavors that evoke the wood distinctively, and flavors that don't. I realize that this is a little like dividing all of the people in the world into people who smell like peaches and people who don't; what exactly is meant by 'smells like peaches', and what have we really accomplished by making this distinction? So, if you want to think about this in terms of specific and individual wood flavors, be my guest.

Thus in your younger whiskies, although the bourbon had less time in contact with wood, it had a much higher percentage of it wood contact with the charred portion. An older whisey will have more contact with wood, but a much higher percentage of that contact with uncharred oak. I think the basis of your question is that you're only considering the flavor from the char attributable to the barrel.

This makes a whole lot of sense - thanks a lot for pointing this out.

So, if we had to generalize and take all other variables as constant, the line on the age-wood flavor graph would start low, go up, peak, and then come down to some moderate level higher than the start but much lower than the peak. (Maybe.)